From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

[sweetsunray]

Sly Wren,

Yup, those are links to my blog... the blog is called "The mythological weave of ice and fire". I had been considering making one for a little while, and then Daendrew suggested it int he Chthonic thread (well, I was fooling around with bakcgrounds and so on already anyhow).

The armless/handless maiden: it's apparently a global motif that appears and it generally goes like this (for the European version at least, though there are Asian and African versions too)... a pure, innocent girl is coveted by her widowed father. She refuses to become his wife, and gets her hands/arms chopped off for it and sent away into the wilderness (often by the instigation of a jealous brother or sister). A prince/king meets her and falls in love with her, and marries her. He may have metal hands forged for her instead. She gets preggers, but he has to go on a voyage or to war and thus is long absent. She gives birth to a healthy heir, and a message is dispatched to the prince/king to inform him of the good news. But that jealous person finds a way to intercept the message, tamper with it, and creates a letter that says she birthed some abomination. The prince/king receives the bad news letter, but writes an answer that sometimes bad things just happen and not to harm her. But again the bad person intercepts the message, tampers with it, and changes it into an answer that orders her execution. Someone does take pity on her, and sends her and the perfectly healthy child out to hide in the forest, where she finds shelter with some magical protector (wizard, a good witch, or magical animal), and her hands/arms are healed/returned to her. Eventually the prince/king discovers the tampering of the letters and laments his fate and starts to wander, and ends up at the place where she lives. Not recognizig her he tells his lamentable story, and she tells hers. So, they recognize each other by matching the stories, and she produces the mechanical hands which she saved in a box to him as evidence she is who she is.

Basically it's a story about someone who is pure of heart who hasn't done a true wrong, but already made out to be dubious and untrustworthy by the physical maiming of hands, and then there are messages tampered with to villify the person's reputation even more to see them killed.

I mentioned it, because a similar motif of tampered messages, false messages, or false appearances creep up in several male characters with a maimed hand:

• Jon Snow: his neutrality shield to Cersei is accompanied with a treacherous letter from Janos Slynt; then there's the dubious Pink Letter, and he has a burned hand. A bastard is already regarded as untrustworthy, for bastard-bias reasons. And despite not having the name, he's still looked at as a traitor through Stark association.
• Jaime Lannister: loses a hand, gives his regards to Robb through Roose not meaning anything by it, and Roose says it during the Red Wedding (which is the main reason why LS wants him dead), and throwing Cersei's plea for help in the fire. Well, Jaime did a wrong by throwing Bran out of the window, but Bran didn't get killed by it at least. He also has a bad rep to begin with, but his kingslaying was done to save thousands of people in the city.
• Davos Seaworth: fingers chopped off, but for a long time he still had his missing fingers in a pouch. That pouch was lost during the Battle of the Blackwater. Westeros is made to believe that Manderly executed Davos, including Stannis, while Davos is sent out to retrieve Rickon from Skagos.

As for the Red Hand: I recall someone mentioning the "red right hand" as alluded to in Nick Cave's song. However, the Red Hand of Ulster is based on an Irish myth of the Finean Cycle. There's a feud on who's to be king of Ireland, and it's decided to hold a boat race for it. The first man who touches Irish soil upon his return gets to be king. One of the racers, chops his hand off and throws it to the coastline, and thereby touches Irish soil first and wins. George certainly worked that in the Burned Men. That's the Vale mountain clan who maim a body part of themselves during their coming of age/manhood ritual. Timett son of Timett stuck his own eye out when he became a man, and that was so fearless, he was immediately elected leader of the Burned Men... that leader is called the Red Hand. So, "red hand", self-maiming, and it were the Burned Men who abducted the 4th daughter of relevance to being heir after Jon Arryn's line. The son of that 4th daughter would be a grandson of Jon Arryn's sister, just as much as Harry the Heir is, but well... The 4th daughter comes before the 5th who is Harry's mother. Most likely that rival heir is Timett himself... and since he's one-eyed that's also an Odin reference. It's curious how George has set up Timett. Most Vale mountain clan men are kindof written as comic relief, like Ulff and Shagga, but not Timett. George has also kept him fairly young (he's 22 now) and rather fiercely handsome. While Shagga remained in the kingswood, Timett returned to the Vale. 

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren,

Yup, those are links to my blog... the blog is called "The mythological weave of ice and fire". I had been considering making one for a little while, and then Daendrew suggested it int he Chthonic thread (well, I was fooling around with bakcgrounds and so on already anyhow).

Excellent! Okay--every time I go to edit the spoiler with the reading links in it, the post gets very territorial and shuts me out of the forum. But I will get it changed eventually.

Basically it's a story about someone who is pure of heart who hasn't done a true wrong, but already made out to be dubious and untrustworthy by the physical maiming of hands, and then there are messages tampered with to villify the person's reputation even more to see them killed.

I mentioned it, because a similar motif of tampered messages, false messages, or false appearances creep up in several male characters with a maimed hand:

• Jon Snow: his neutrality shield to Cersei is accompanied with a treacherous letter from Janos Slynt; then there's the dubious Pink Letter, and he has a burned hand. A bastard is already regarded as untrustworthy, for bastard-bias reasons. And despite not having the name, he's still looked at as a traitor through Stark association.
• Jaime Lannister: loses a hand, gives his regards to Robb through Roose not meaning anything by it, and Roose says it during the Red Wedding (which is the main reason why LS wants him dead), and throwing Cersei's plea for help in the fire. Well, Jaime did a wrong by throwing Bran out of the window, but Bran didn't get killed by it at least. He also has a bad rep to begin with, but his kingslaying was done to save thousands of people in the city.
• Davos Seaworth: fingers chopped off, but for a long time he still had his missing fingers in a pouch. That pouch was lost during the Battle of the Blackwater. Westeros is made to believe that Manderly executed Davos, including Stannis, while Davos is sent out to retrieve Rickon from Skagos.

Interesting--and I agree on Jon, Jaime, and Davos.

But am also thinking (symbolically) of Arya and Sansa. Cersei wanted Arya maimed--wanted her hand off, right? And her "testimony" was vilified and ignored. In part because of her wolf. She's left-handed, but is maimed by having to send Nymeria away--stunts her.

Sansa--also "maimed" through false testimony and the execution of Lady. Leaves her sort of sleep walking through Game. 

Am also wondering a bit about Lyanna and the potential circumstances surrounding her disappearance. Given how Ned hears Lyanna's pleading when Sansa pleads for Lady--I think the scene with the condemning of Lady is a garbled echo of what happened to Ned's family. One wolf killed for another. Both wrongfully and treacherously accused. 

As for the Red Hand: I recall someone mentioning the "red right hand" as alluded to in Nick Cave's song. However, the Red Hand of Ulster is based on an Irish myth of the Finean Cycle. There's a feud on who's to be king of Ireland, and it's decided to hold a boat race for it. The first man who touches Irish soil upon his return gets to be king. One of the racers, chops his hand off and throws it to the coastline, and thereby touches Irish soil first and wins. George certainly worked that in the Burned Men. That's the Vale mountain clan who maim a body part of themselves during their coming of age/manhood ritual. Timett son of Timett stuck his own eye out when he became a man, and that was so fearless, he was immediately elected leader of the Burned Men... that leader is called the Red Hand. So, "red hand", self-maiming, and it were the Burned Men who abducted the 4th daughter of relevance to being heir after Jon Arryn's line. The son of that 4th daughter would be a grandson of Jon Arryn's sister, just as much as Harry the Heir is, but well... The 4th daughter comes before the 5th who is Harry's mother. Most likely that rival heir is Timett himself... and since he's one-eyed that's also an Odin reference. It's curious how George has set up Timett. Most Vale mountain clan men are kindof written as comic relief, like Ulff and Shagga, but not Timett. George has also kept him fairly young (he's 22 now) and rather fiercely handsome. While Shagga remained in the kingswood, Timett returned to the Vale. 

Hmm--I'd read about the Red Branch Kings and thought that's where you were going. Apparently I'm an idiot. 

But it seems like these older traditions of leadership are coming back to the fore. Robb's being elected king. Jon's election--seems like the Watch has held onto the idea of "earned" leadership while the "nobility" of the 7 Kingdoms embraced heredity. 

The idea of self-maiming and self-sacrifice--well, you know I think that's where Martin's going with his leaders in this text. And I rather like the image of the one who's willing to maim himself to claim the land gets it. Just how much will the North be willing to risk to repel the Others and claim their land?

[Sly Wren]

DOOD you had me giggling like a schoolgirl over here with that... 

So, I take it you are NOT interested in starting a Blood Club for the First Men?

[LmL]

So, I take it you are NOT interested in starting a Blood Club for the First Men?

No, but I am hot on the trail of those who did...  

[Ice Queen]

Okay--that's done! 

So, we were in the middle of #4. It and #3 had the same basic OP:

The BASIC premise: Jon Snow will be the next Sword of the Morning. This is key to his role in ending the Long Night. He will not be acting alone, but will be one of many players.

Continuing from previous threads: From-Death-to-Dawn-Jon-Will-Rise-and-the-Sword-of-the-Morning/

So far, this premise has raised a number of discussion topics, including (but not limited to):            --Types of swords and the role of Valyrian Steel

            --Evils of blood sacrifice and implications

            --The origins of Dawn; What is Dawn made from? How is Dawn bestowed on a Sword of the Morning?

            --What has Jon been learning and what does it mean to “rule?”

            --Logistics: How will Jon get Dawn, what will it do, how it plays into the rest of the story, etc.

            --The Great Empire of the Dawn and all the myths that go with that

            --Daynes and Starfall

            --How does Dany fit in?-Dany’s vision of the people with the White Sword(s).

            --What about the Ironborn?

            --Other Starks, Direwolves, Warging

            --The Role of the Night’s Watch and its Oath; The Black Gate, wells, spiral stairs, and underground passages

            --Dreams of the Underworld and the Winterfell Crypts. The underworld itself and the ways it can reveal information

            --Potential causes of the Long Night

            --Fairytales; The Sidhe; Nordic, Celtic, and various other real-world myths

            --Tolkien references

            --The “true” nature of Knights     

            --And of course the obvious question—does the basic premise have any validity?Further Reading on other Topics:

 

Hidden Content

 

Hidden Content

So what happened to #4? I was looking for it and all of a sudden the topic list goes back to 17 September. 

 

Anyway...I'm trying to remember exactly where we were!

[Sly Wren]

So what happened to #4? I was looking for it and all of a sudden the topic list goes back to 17 September. 

Anyway...I'm trying to remember exactly where we were!

They switched to a new forum--only saved content per-September 17th when they started this one up. 

There's a notice from Linda re: possibly opening the old forum for an archive. And they might even switch us again and restore the old content, which would mean this content would be loss. And now I unfortunately have Dust in the Wind in my head. . .

As for where we were: From the last page:

My memory is shaky, but if I remember correctly, the last posts I saw before the switch suggested we were discussing:

Tycho Nestoris, Braavos, and the potential influence of the Braavosi's anti-slavery ideals on Westeros and the Wall.

The symbolism of the Blue Rose.

The nature of the trees.

Anything else you all can remember? 

Either way--dive on in with what you will!

sweetsunray added this.

And, if my sketchy memory is working at all--I think you were chiding me re: my flight of fancy that the rose in the Wall might also symbolize the life coming out of the Wall. Living ice. I think you insisted that it only meant Jon. My answer, which got sent into the ether: yes, absolutely means Jon. But also life growing out. Jon seems like he's growing into a VERY Starkly thing. Developing, not just born. And it doesn't get more Stark than the Blue Rose story. 

I also think it indicates that Jon will end up "ruling" Winterfell. 

All that said--I keep getting mixed up re: what was said on my thread, on sweetsunray's thread and on Lady Barbrey's. So the above might be a bit of a mishmash.

Dive on in to the madness!

[Sly Wren]

No, but I am hot on the trail of those who did...  

Okay--slow brain walking here. But I just realized--I don't know what you mean by this.

Are you just playing, or is this part of an argument?

[LmL]

Okay--slow brain walking here. But I just realized--I don't know what you mean by this.

Are you just playing, or is this part of an argument?

I'm referring to the greenseers who dropped that bloody Hammer is what I mean. :)

[Lady Dyanna]

Sly Wren, I just put this in the echoes thread on TLH.

I found this one earlier today.  I couldn't find anything specifically pointing to it being an echo, but my gut kept telling me that it was. I think that I might know why now.  See below the quote for further explanation.

Thorne smiled. “The Bastard wishes to defend his lady love, so we shall make an exercise of it. Rat, Pimple, help our Stone Head here.”Rast and Albett moved to join Halder. “Three of you ought to be sufficient to make Lady Piggy squeal. All you need do is get past the Bastard.”“Stay behind me,”Jon said to the fat boy. Ser Alliser had often sent two foes against him, but never three. He knew he would likely go to sleep bruised and bloody tonight. He braced himself for the assault. Suddenly Pyp was beside him. “Three to two will make for better sport,”the small boy said cheerfully. He dropped his visor and slid out his sword. Before Jon could even think to protest, Grenn had stepped up to make a third. The yard had grown deathly quiet. Jon could feel Ser Alliser’s eyes. “Why are you waiting?”he asked Rast and the others in a voice gone deceptively soft, but it was Jon who moved first. Halder barely got his sword up in time. Jon drove him backward, attacking with every blow, keeping the older boy on the heels. Know your foe, Ser Rodrik had taught him once; Jon knew Halder, brutally strong but short of patience, with no taste for defense. Frustrate him, and he would leave himself open, as certain as sunset. The clang of steel echoed through the yard as the others joined battle around him. Jon blocked a savage cut at his head, the shock of impact running up his arm as the swords crashed together. He slammed a sidestroke into Halder’s ribs, and was rewarded with a muffled grunt of pain. The counterstroke caught Jon on the shoulder. Chainmail crunched, and pain flared up his neck, but for an instant Halder was unbalanced. Jon cut his left leg from under him, and he fell with a curse and a crash. Grenn was standing his ground as Jon had taught him, giving Albett more than he cared for, but Pyp was hard-pressed. Rast had two years and forty pounds on him. Jon stepped up behind him and rang the raper’s helm like a bell. As Rast went reeling, Pyp slid in under his guard, knocked him down, and leveled a blade at his throat. By then Jon had moved on. Facing two swords, Albett backed away. “I yield,”he shouted.

Then, I noticed the following line.

“Grenn’s the ugly one,”Pyp said. Grenn scowled. “You’re uglier than me. At least I don’t have ears like a bat.”

So, here Pip is described as having ears like a bar. Sounds like a comparison to a Whent. Who else joined the fight on Jon's side? Grenn. And what is Grenn's nickname? The Aurochs. Or should I say the White Bull? So we have Jon, defending his "Lady Love" with the help of a Bat and a Bull. Arthur Dayne much? And to make it all the more interesting, the attack on Ser Piggy was ordered by Ser Alliser Thorne. Later on in the same chapter we get this last quote equating Ser Alliser with a eunuch.

The mummer’s boy with the big ears was a born liar with a hundred different voices, and he did not tell his tales so much as live them, playing all the parts as needed, a king one moment and a swineherd the next. When he turned into an alehouse girl or a virgin princess, he used a high falsetto voice that reduced them all to tears of helpless laughter , and his eunuchs were always eerily accurate caricatures of Ser Alliser.

Did three Kingsguard defend Arthur's lady love, Lyanna, from an attack ordered by Varys???

 

[Sly Wren]

I'm referring to the greenseers who dropped that bloody Hammer is what I mean.

Ah, yes. The people you DON'T want to party with. They make the humans pay for everything, including tipping the delivery guys. With their lives.

I had thought you might be referencing this. And, given our discussions re: Jon, The Great Empire of the Dawn, and the Daynes' possible connections to them, the idea that the Starks are a different ethnic group seems like it might hold water.

[Sly Wren]

Sly Wren, I just put this in the echoes thread on TLH.

I found this one earlier today.  I couldn't find anything specifically pointing to it being an echo, but my gut kept telling me that it was. I think that I might know why now.  See below the quote for further explanation.

Thorne smiled. “The Bastard wishes to defend his lady love, so we shall make an exercise of it. Rat, Pimple, help our Stone Head here.”Rast and Albett moved to join Halder. “Three of you ought to be sufficient to make Lady Piggy squeal. All you need do is get past the Bastard.”“Stay behind me,”Jon said to the fat boy. Ser Alliser had often sent two foes against him, but never three. He knew he would likely go to sleep bruised and bloody tonight. He braced himself for the assault. Suddenly Pyp was beside him. “Three to two will make for better sport,”the small boy said cheerfully. He dropped his visor and slid out his sword. Before Jon could even think to protest, Grenn had stepped up to make a third. The yard had grown deathly quiet. Jon could feel Ser Alliser’s eyes. “Why are you waiting?”he asked Rast and the others in a voice gone deceptively soft, but it was Jon who moved first. Halder barely got his sword up in time. Jon drove him backward, attacking with every blow, keeping the older boy on the heels. Know your foe, Ser Rodrik had taught him once; Jon knew Halder, brutally strong but short of patience, with no taste for defense. Frustrate him, and he would leave himself open, as certain as sunset. The clang of steel echoed through the yard as the others joined battle around him. Jon blocked a savage cut at his head, the shock of impact running up his arm as the swords crashed together. He slammed a sidestroke into Halder’s ribs, and was rewarded with a muffled grunt of pain. The counterstroke caught Jon on the shoulder. Chainmail crunched, and pain flared up his neck, but for an instant Halder was unbalanced. Jon cut his left leg from under him, and he fell with a curse and a crash. Grenn was standing his ground as Jon had taught him, giving Albett more than he cared for, but Pyp was hard-pressed. Rast had two years and forty pounds on him. Jon stepped up behind him and rang the raper’s helm like a bell. As Rast went reeling, Pyp slid in under his guard, knocked him down, and leveled a blade at his throat. By then Jon had moved on. Facing two swords, Albett backed away. “I yield,”he shouted.

Then, I noticed the following line.

“Grenn’s the ugly one,”Pyp said. Grenn scowled. “You’re uglier than me. At least I don’t have ears like a bat.”

So, here Pip is described as having ears like a bar. Sounds like a comparison to a Whent. Who else joined the fight on Jon's side? Grenn. And what is Grenn's nickname? The Aurochs. Or should I say the White Bull? So we have Jon, defending his "Lady Love" with the help of a Bat and a Bull. Arthur Dayne much? And to make it all the more interesting, the attack on Ser Piggy was ordered by Ser Alliser Thorne. Later on in the same chapter we get this last quote equating Ser Alliser with a eunuch.

The mummer’s boy with the big ears was a born liar with a hundred different voices, and he did not tell his tales so much as live them, playing all the parts as needed, a king one moment and a swineherd the next. When he turned into an alehouse girl or a virgin princess, he used a high falsetto voice that reduced them all to tears of helpless laughter , and his eunuchs were always eerily accurate caricatures of Ser Alliser.

Did three Kingsguard defend Arthur's lady love, Lyanna, from an attack ordered by Varys???

Okay--this is just fabulous.

1. Yes, I do buy that Varys might have been a force--or Varys with Aerys (sounds like a tongue twister). Jaime tells Brienne that "the one time Aerys should have listened to Varys" about not letting Tywin into the city, the king didn't listen. Which makes it sound like the rest of the time, Jaime did not think highly of Varys' advice. Granted, Jaime was little more than a well-armed kid. And his judgment on anything other than fighting tactics seems suspect--but still: if Aerys was suspecting foes everywhere, could see Varys' advice fomenting that fear. And thus influencing an attempt on Lyanna.

2. The symbolism of the fight: well done, madam! Especially with all of the imagery of Jon as defender. That imagery/scenario happens repeatedly in the novels, but not with this level of parallel.

3. Am thinking it also echoes (as we've talked about on TLH) Arya's fight for her friend. And Joffrey's sham of "impressing" his "lady love" by indulging his own nasty ego. Jon's attempt to save Sam goes much better. But Arya's potential parallel with Lyanna is clear. Am also wondering if Sansa's parallel with Lyanna might also be clear--just twisted. Since Joff is no knight. Or arguably even fully human.

[Ice Queen]

They switched to a new forum--only saved content per-September 17th when they started this one up. 

There's a notice from Linda re: possibly opening the old forum for an archive. And they might even switch us again and restore the old content, which would mean this content would be loss. And now I unfortunately have Dust in the Wind in my head. . .

As for where we were: From the last page:

My memory is shaky, but if I remember correctly, the last posts I saw before the switch suggested we were discussing:

Tycho Nestoris, Braavos, and the potential influence of the Braavosi's anti-slavery ideals on Westeros and the Wall.

The symbolism of the Blue Rose.

The nature of the trees.

Anything else you all can remember? 

Either way--dive on in with what you will!

sweetsunray added this.

And, if my sketchy memory is working at all--I think you were chiding me re: my flight of fancy that the rose in the Wall might also symbolize the life coming out of the Wall. Living ice. I think you insisted that it only meant Jon. My answer, which got sent into the ether: yes, absolutely means Jon. But also life growing out. Jon seems like he's growing into a VERY Starkly thing. Developing, not just born. And it doesn't get more Stark than the Blue Rose story. 

I wasn't chiding you at all.  I was just saying that there is another way to look at it. 

I also think it indicates that Jon will end up "ruling" Winterfell. 

All that said--I keep getting mixed up re: what was said on my thread, on sweetsunray's thread and on Lady Barbrey's. So the above might be a bit of a mishmash.

Dive on in to the madness!

I think it's highly possible that what's left of Westeros at the end will be ruled from Winterfell and that the IT will no longer exist. 

[Ice Queen]

Did three Kingsguard defend Arthur's lady love, Lyanna, from an attack ordered by Varys???

 

No, they were defending a possible heir to the throne. 

[Scorpion92]

No, they were defending a possible heir to the throne. 

They might have helped to defend Lyanna from Varys' attack prior her "kidnapping".

[LmL]

Ah, yes. The people you DON'T want to party with. They make the humans pay for everything, including tipping the delivery guys. With their lives.

I had thought you might be referencing this. And, given our discussions re: Jon, The Great Empire of the Dawn, and the Daynes' possible connections to them, the idea that the Starks are a different ethnic group seems like it might hold water.

I'm a big fan of Lord Martin's essay, although I wasn't specifically referencing it. At this point, I'm not sure that ANY of the First Men really walked across that land bridge. Any / all of the First Men could be from the GEotD. Hopefully we can narrow it down... it's just so hard to say. 

I certainly think it's possible Dayne and Stark descended from a common ancestor, the Last Hero perhaps, but originally I tend to think Starks are First Men and Daynes are GEotD, with the LH possibly being the result of a marriage of the two lines. 

[LmL]

They might have helped to defend Lyanna from Varys' attack prior her "kidnapping".

Or perhaps Ned merely learned of Lyanna's location from Varys, directly or indirectly. That would be close enough to match the symbolism. 

Lady Dyanna, this is a pretty good catch. The bull and bat reference is interesting, probably not coincidence. 

[Sly Wren]

I wasn't chiding you at all.  I was just saying that there is another way to look at it. 

All good--and you're right.

I think it's highly possible that what's left of Westeros at the end will be ruled from Winterfell and that the IT will no longer exist. 

Maybe--I agree re: the Iron Throne.

But Winterfell--the Starks were originally Kings of Winter. Probably the guardians of where Winter fell. Not rulers of Westeros, but guardians of the realms. So, am thinking that's what may be coming back--the true purpose. Of both Winterfell and the Wall.

Am just now wondering if that might mean the other "kingdoms" need to reconnect with their original purpose--Damphair made the case for it on the Iron Islands. Asha pushed even harder. So--Tyrells need to re-embrace gardening? Stormlands need to prepare to deal with the Storm god? And might that mean the Lannisters are done for--there are no more lions in the hill. Nothing "mystical" for them to connect with.

As Jaime says to Brienne in his dream when they are under the Rock--there's no lions or bears--only doom. No more natural or elemental magic for the Lannisters. Only doom?

[Sly Wren]

They might have helped to defend Lyanna from Varys' attack prior her "kidnapping".

Or as part of the kidnapping--if that kidnapping started as a rescue or as a mess. . . 

Lady Dyanna's been playing with a lot of the echoes in the novels here.

One of the things that seems to come up: when Ned hears Lyanna's pleading. And the sort of garbled potential echoes of Lyanna's fate in both Sansa and Arya--Arya's saving her friend (like Lyanna and Howland), Sansa and Arya being dragged before a cruel Queen. A wolf is falsely accused (Lyanna? Brandon?). When that wolf is absent (Lyanna?) another wolf is killed for spite (Rickard and Brandon?).

Jon's saving of Sam--really seems like an echo of something as well. And, if Jon is the Sword of the Morning (), was Arthur or even Raeghar (with his Dayne-ish blood) involved in some sort of "protection"?

Or perhaps Ned merely learned of Lyanna's location from Varys, directly or indirectly. That would be close enough to match the symbolism. 

Lady Dyanna, this is a pretty good catch. The bull and bat reference is interesting, probably not coincidence. 

Agreed--though the protection imagery seems a bit stronger than just info. Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

I'm a big fan of Lord Martin's essay, although I wasn't specifically referencing it. At this point, I'm not sure that ANY of the First Men really walked across that land bridge. Any / all of the First Men could be from the GEotD. Hopefully we can narrow it down... it's just so hard to say. 

I certainly think it's possible Dayne and Stark descended from a common ancestor, the Last Hero perhaps, but originally I tend to think Starks are First Men and Daynes are GEotD, with the LH possibly being the result of a marriage of the two lines. 

Agreed re: Lord Martin. 

And I agree that the Daynes and Starks seem to have disparate lineage at some point. But there are traces in the World Book suggesting that the Starks might not have kept the pact as well as other first men. And, if the Thenns are First Men, their religion seems different, etc. 

But I definitely think there's an ancient connection between the Starks and the Daynes--marriage might be the way. Especially if a Stark was involved in creating the Long Night (IE: like the Stark Night's King seems to re-embrace cold magic). Marriages between Starks and Daynes--perhaps one couple stays in Winterfell (there must always be a Stark in Winterfell) to guard and protect the only source. Another couple goes south with Dawn (We Guard the Way, We Light the Way) to protect it.

Maybe--maybe this is something Edric Dayne knows about. Is this why he was deferential to Arya? Seeking out Ned (pre-de-heading)? 

[sweetsunray]

Sly Wren, I just put this in the echoes thread on TLH.

 

Very nice catch, Lady Dyanna!!!