From Death to Dawn #2: Jon's Nightmare Battle and the King of Winter

[LmL]

But who has him? Littlefinger? Varys? Or did he just see an opportunity and run?

Varys, if he's anywhere. The idea would be that Varys needs quasi-legitimate lords who are loyal to fAegon to install in various places. There are a few theories suggesting one of the main reason Varys might have instigated the riot (which he may or may not have done) was to snatch Tyrek. A related idea is that Darkstar Dayne might steal Dawn and be welcomed at fAegon's court as a sad mockery of Arthur Dayne serving at Rhaegar's side.

[Sly Wren]

If Jaime redeems himself, then his line is done. I think gentle Tommen is toast, sadly. Kevan's son is into chastity and is slowly dying. And Tyrion may become Lord, but to me, that story was already told in Riddick... plus there is always an off chance that he is Aerys's boy. So I agree, the Lannister lions are heading off-stage, unless the missing Uncle shows up and brings Essosian lions back with him. That would be worthy of Lann the Clever, wouldn't it?

Agreed re: Jaime. I have a hard time seeing him engaging in reviving his family dynasty. Especially if, as I think is likely, all of his children die as does Cersei. Am assuming Tommen's love for kittens is not a foreshadowing of finding lion cubs in the snow any time soon. 

If missing uncle shows up the books will go on forever. With Tommen growing up to be a lion tamer. Or Jaime training him to wield Brightroar (hey, if there are new lions, the sword has to calm back, too. That's just science).

Don't forget about the Tyrek revival that's coming...

Yes--never underestimate a kid who's name is an anagram for "treky"--he will live long and prosper.

But who has him? Littlefinger? Varys? Or did he just see an opportunity and run?

Am hoping it's the bolded--a character who actually gets out of the family mess would be very refreshing. But it no one's found his body at all--seems like there's a chance Varys could have him. 

[Sly Wren]

Varys, if he's anywhere. The idea would be that Varys needs quasi-legitimate lords who are loyal to fAegon to install in various places. There are a few theories suggesting one of the main reason Varys might have instigated the riot (which he may or may not have done) was to snatch Tyrek. A related idea is that Darkstar Dayne might steal Dawn and be welcomed at fAegon's court as a sad mockery of Arthur Dayne serving at Rhaegar's side.

1. Yes--if Varys is involved, I'd say he more took advantage of the madness. "Planning" a riot seems about as wise as performing surgery with a blowtorch.

2. Agreed that stealing Dawn is likely Darkstar's plan. And he might even hear of Aegon and think of heading in his direction. But I'm thinking there's a good chance Aegon might fall apart fast. Or that Darkstar's plans will fail him.

I need to re-read the sections with him in them--they're just so annoying. . . 

[Scorpion92]

Regarding Timmett and Vale mountain clans: I definitely think that they are coming backto the story and in a big way. They are followers of Old Gods, which are the gods of northmen and Starks, so there is a connection with Sansa. Also, Timmett, as others mentioned, has an Arryn blood and Tyrion promised them the Vale of Arryn after all.

But unlike others, I do not think that Sweetrobin is going to die soon. In fact, I believe that Harry the Heir is not long for this world. After all, Sansa foreshadowed his death in WoW chapter where she wished he would fall from his horse and break his neck. Harry is going to die fighting in the tournament, by an accident, which will prompt Littlefinger to keep Sweetrobin alive and cancel his poisoning. The Vale tournament will be Sansa's rehearsal for next big event.

And I think that Littlefinger's whole deal with Vale lords and storaging food is for his next great plan: organize a grand tournament at his turf, Harrenhal. He needs Vale armies to secure his lands around Harrenhal from Freys, outlaws, etc. and extra food for winter to appease nearby smallfolk and river lords to come to this big event. His plan of unveiling Sansa to the public and her betrothal to Aegon will happen there. Replace Harry the Heir with Aegon and Vale knights to southern knights in LF's infamous promise to Sansa, and you might see what I am getting to. Littlefinger is cooking up something big, which involves Vale army, Sansa and Harrenhal, I feel it.

This is where Sansa will slay a giant in a snow castle, in Harrenhal - the future "seat of kings" and new capital of Westeros when it is all said and done, with royal House Stark as ruling dynasty. I suspect she will kill LF warging a bird somehow, both associated with LF and Sansa. Then she will flee the scenery with Shadrich Mad Mouse, and it is a small distance from Harrenhal to King's Landing to deliver her to Cersei and where culmination of dozen characters' storylines will occur. 

Oh, and by the way, while majority of Vale knights will leave with LF, I think Sweetrobin will stay behind at Gates of the Moon under Nestor Royce's protection. This will be the time Dany, Tyrion and Dothraki horde will arrive to the Vale, and the Imp will give mostly empty Vale of Arryn to mountain clans like he promised. I actually expect Dany to burn down the Eyrie.

However, I expect Sweetrobin actually to accept mountain clans as part of his domain since Timmett is his kin, and after a ride on a dragon with Dany he will decide to join Mother of Dragons which is foreshadowed in the books. Especially if Nestor Royce tells the truth behind Lysa's murder to Tyrion and Dany (which he currently is investigating in WoW), Sweetrobin will probably swear his allegiance to Dany if they promise to bring back Sansa to him from LF's clutches. Tyrion has few scores with LF himself, so he will gladly agree.

Regarding Tyrek, I actually think that Littlefinger is behind his abduction. Varys does not make sense, because he already had a Lannister in Tyrion who will oppose current regime and be sympathetic to Aegon's cause, especially since he already met the boy. In the story, LF already kidnapped potential heir to the North in Sansa, has protectorate over a child lord in Sweetrobin, plus he has a history of "training" Jeyne Poole to be Arya Stark and become a puppet Stark girl for Bolton regime.

I think it ties into my Harrenhal tournament speculation better if Littlefinger, Lord Paramount of Riverlands (a region right in the middle of Westeros) and one of the wealthiest if not the wealthiest lord in Westeros, to have keys to the North, the Vale and the Westerlands through Sansa, Sweetrobin and Tyrek. He can offer these regions in negotiations at Harrenhal with Aegon, or in other words, to Varys' camp, who by that time I expect to control Stormlands, Dorne (through marriage to Arianne) and Reach (liberating Oldtown from iron born and winning their allegiance).

It will all come down to LF and Varys to bring absolute peace to the realm, of course, LF with his own agenda to gain more and more power while Varys tries to install Blackfyre as king and bring the realm to stability, but Dany and Tyrion will have their own ideas and shatter all hope of peace in the South when they start second dance of the dragons with Aegon.

[LmL]

Wow that's an awful lot of speculation. What's all that based on, I wonder?

[Stannis in the middle]

Wow that's an awful lot of speculation. What's all that based on, I wonder?

It aint that much speculation...

[LmL]

It aint that much speculation...

Are we talking about the same post? The one by Scorpion92? That's a megaton of speculation, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm not seeing that it's based on much textual foreshadowing. I assume Scorpion is seeing a few things to base this on - I'm curious what they are. He's gone pretty far into the future there with specific predictions. 

[Sly Wren]

Regarding Timmett and Vale mountain clans: I definitely think that they are coming backto the story and in a big way. They are followers of Old Gods, which are the gods of northmen and Starks, so there is a connection with Sansa. Also, Timmett, as others mentioned, has an Arryn blood and Tyrion promised them the Vale of Arryn after all.

Agreed. I was looking again at the chapter where Tyrion stops Joffrey's beating of Sansa. I usually focus on the Hound vs. Dontos vs. Tyrion in that chapter. But Timmet and Chella are there, too. Chella is guarding Sansa in the Tower of the Hand, and tells her she can pray inside--that the gods will hear her prayers. Timmett and Chella have thus seen Tyrion's care for Sansa, have protected her, too. And Timmett was apparently not at all pleased about not being able to return to Tyrion's service after the Blackwater. The idea that the Vale clans could echo the Northern clans in their support--that I can see.

But unlike others, I do not think that Sweetrobin is going to die soon. In fact, I believe that Harry the Heir is not long for this world. After all, Sansa foreshadowed his death in WoW chapter where she wished he would fall from his horse and break his neck. Harry is going to die fighting in the tournament, by an accident, which will prompt Littlefinger to keep Sweetrobin alive and cancel his poisoning. The Vale tournament will be Sansa's rehearsal for next big event.

And I think that Littlefinger's whole deal with Vale lords and storaging food is for his next great plan: organize a grand tournament at his turf, Harrenhal. He needs Vale armies to secure his lands around Harrenhal from Freys, outlaws, etc. and extra food for winter to appease nearby smallfolk and river lords to come to this big event. His plan of unveiling Sansa to the public and her betrothal to Aegon will happen there. Replace Harry the Heir with Aegon and Vale knights to southern knights in LF's infamous promise to Sansa, and you might see what I am getting to. Littlefinger is cooking up something big, which involves Vale army, Sansa and Harrenhal, I feel it.

Having a bit more trouble following you with some of this. While I agree that Harry might be done for--Sansa has a decent history of knowing who will win a tourney fight--I think a second tourney seems both unlikely and unnecessary. Littlefinger is already echoing the Harrenhal tourney with the size of his prizes, the fact that it's almost like a false spring in the Vale with all of the hoarded resources. Even the lemon-cake Giant's Lance shows the excess. 

So, a second tourney at Harrenhal--which needs garrisoning and cleaning out, not to mention the fact that the Riverlands are practically a hellscape in places--doing all this as winter comes, am having a really hard time seeing why Littlefinger would do that, from a practical standpoint. Yes, he wants to consolidate his rule, but how would this help him do so? A tourney in the midst of chaos?

Plus, as I said above, and as sweetsunray has posited, the symbolism of the tourney in the Vale seems to already echo the tourney of the Hand. Which had echoes of Harrenhal. The symbolism is already working. . . can't see why a second trolley helps practically or thematically. . . unless you are thinking of something specific.

This is where Sansa will slay a giant in a snow castle, in Harrenhal - the future "seat of kings" and new capital of Westeros when it is all said and done, with royal House Stark as ruling dynasty. I suspect she will kill LF warging a bird somehow, both associated with LF and Sansa. Then she will flee the scenery with Shadrich Mad Mouse, and it is a small distance from Harrenhal to King's Landing to deliver her to Cersei and where culmination of dozen characters' storylines will occur. 

Oh, and by the way, while majority of Vale knights will leave with LF, I think Sweetrobin will stay behind at Gates of the Moon under Nestor Royce's protection. This will be the time Dany, Tyrion and Dothraki horde will arrive to the Vale, and the Imp will give mostly empty Vale of Arryn to mountain clans like he promised. I actually expect Dany to burn down the Eyrie.

Bringing Sansa down to Harrenhal--are you thinking of specific imagery or foreshadowing here? I'm struggling to come up with a reason for this. The fleeing with the Mad Mouse. . . that I could see. But, given the connections between herself, Tyrion, and the Vale clans, am also wondering if they get her out and to the north.

Given all of the imagery around Sansa, not to mention her thoughts--really think she's going north. 

On the knights--the Vale's big hero, the Winged Knight, wasn't a knight at all. But a fighter pre-dating the Andal concept of chivalry. Rather like the Sword of the Morning is now the worthy knight of House Dayne. But it's an office which vastly pre-dates knighthood. 

The winged knight defeated the Griffin King--griffins notoriously hoard, especially gold. And when Sansa/Alyane stands in the Maiden Tower overlooking the Vale, she sees the Vale as golden. And who's hoarding it? Littlefinger. So, I'm really thinking the older forces--the clans--will be taking out the newer forces of Littlefinger. They seem like they are more likely to undo the Vale's power structure. 

Or are you thinking of something specific re: Dany's taking the Vale?

[sweetsunray]

Regarding Timmett and Vale mountain clans: I definitely think that they are coming backto the story and in a big way. They are followers of Old Gods, which are the gods of northmen and Starks, so there is a connection with Sansa. Also, Timmett, as others mentioned, has an Arryn blood and Tyrion promised them the Vale of Arryn after all.

But unlike others, I do not think that Sweetrobin is going to die soon. In fact, I believe that Harry the Heir is not long for this world. After all, Sansa foreshadowed his death in WoW chapter where she wished he would fall from his horse and break his neck. Harry is going to die fighting in the tournament, by an accident, which will prompt Littlefinger to keep Sweetrobin alive and cancel his poisoning. The Vale tournament will be Sansa's rehearsal for next big event.

And I think that Littlefinger's whole deal with Vale lords and storaging food is for his next great plan: organize a grand tournament at his turf, Harrenhal. He needs Vale armies to secure his lands around Harrenhal from Freys, outlaws, etc. and extra food for winter to appease nearby smallfolk and river lords to come to this big event. His plan of unveiling Sansa to the public and her betrothal to Aegon will happen there. Replace Harry the Heir with Aegon and Vale knights to southern knights in LF's infamous promise to Sansa, and you might see what I am getting to. Littlefinger is cooking up something big, which involves Vale army, Sansa and Harrenhal, I feel it.

This is where Sansa will slay a giant in a snow castle, in Harrenhal - the future "seat of kings" and new capital of Westeros when it is all said and done, with royal House Stark as ruling dynasty. I suspect she will kill LF warging a bird somehow, both associated with LF and Sansa. Then she will flee the scenery with Shadrich Mad Mouse, and it is a small distance from Harrenhal to King's Landing to deliver her to Cersei and where culmination of dozen characters' storylines will occur. 

Oh, and by the way, while majority of Vale knights will leave with LF, I think Sweetrobin will stay behind at Gates of the Moon under Nestor Royce's protection. This will be the time Dany, Tyrion and Dothraki horde will arrive to the Vale, and the Imp will give mostly empty Vale of Arryn to mountain clans like he promised. I actually expect Dany to burn down the Eyrie.

However, I expect Sweetrobin actually to accept mountain clans as part of his domain since Timmett is his kin, and after a ride on a dragon with Dany he will decide to join Mother of Dragons which is foreshadowed in the books. Especially if Nestor Royce tells the truth behind Lysa's murder to Tyrion and Dany (which he currently is investigating in WoW), Sweetrobin will probably swear his allegiance to Dany if they promise to bring back Sansa to him from LF's clutches. Tyrion has few scores with LF himself, so he will gladly agree.

Regarding Tyrek, I actually think that Littlefinger is behind his abduction. Varys does not make sense, because he already had a Lannister in Tyrion who will oppose current regime and be sympathetic to Aegon's cause, especially since he already met the boy. In the story, LF already kidnapped potential heir to the North in Sansa, has protectorate over a child lord in Sweetrobin, plus he has a history of "training" Jeyne Poole to be Arya Stark and become a puppet Stark girl for Bolton regime.

I think it ties into my Harrenhal tournament speculation better if Littlefinger, Lord Paramount of Riverlands (a region right in the middle of Westeros) and one of the wealthiest if not the wealthiest lord in Westeros, to have keys to the North, the Vale and the Westerlands through Sansa, Sweetrobin and Tyrek. He can offer these regions in negotiations at Harrenhal with Aegon, or in other words, to Varys' camp, who by that time I expect to control Stormlands, Dorne (through marriage to Arianne) and Reach (liberating Oldtown from iron born and winning their allegiance).

It will all come down to LF and Varys to bring absolute peace to the realm, of course, LF with his own agenda to gain more and more power while Varys tries to install Blackfyre as king and bring the realm to stability, but Dany and Tyrion will have their own ideas and shatter all hope of peace in the South when they start second dance of the dragons with Aegon.

Unfortunately, Scorpion I think most of the most important foreshadowing scenes (Gregor Clegane's joust against Ser Hugh, and the complete snow castle building scene) predict the death of: Sweetrobin, Harry the Heir and Littlefinger.

This is the copy of my conclusion and tl;tr prediction (of 20k article with extensive textual quotes) on Vale events based on both scenes I mentioned:

• A massacre at the Gates of the Moon by an avalanche storming off the Giant’s Lance, caused by an earthquake (giants woken by the Horn of Winter). It appears that Robert Arryn will be killed in that disaster. (evidence: (1) "Gregor Clegane's lance" kills Ser Hugh - He is called the Mountain and a human giant amongst human giants - The mountain of the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon is called "Giant's Lance". Before that Gregor is also said to ride like an "avalanche". (2) Sweetrobin's shaking fit, falling on top of the snow castle and destroying everything. (3) Ser Hugh wears a blue coat, the blue of a summer sky, which is the exact same color blue for House Arryn, foreshadowing the end of House Arryn, which is why Sweetrobin will die (4) a reference of the sun being gone in Ser Hugh's death scene, alluding to the start of the Long Night, and we have the Horn of Winter legend which says it'll wake giants from the earth and thus highly likely a reference to an earthquake (5) the scaling of Sweetrobin in comparison to the snow castle being destroyed: SR is the size of a veritable mountain (6) Crescent moons of Ser Hugh's cloak turn red, while Catelyn notes a crescent moon reflection in the moat of the Gates of the Moon and a giant crescent moon when she ascends the Giant's Lance; she noted the crescent moon as well at the Twins when Robb crossed it the first time and the Twins ended up being a location of a bloody massacre)
• The Burned Men leading three thousand men of the mountain clans to conquer the damaged Bloody Gate. Timett son of Timett is probably the grandson of Alys Arryn, whose fourth daughter was kidnapped by Burned Men. This seems to most logical location and setting in which the new Lord of the Vale, Harrold Arryn will meet his deadly fate. House Arryn ends with him. (evidence: (1) Timett's killing tactic of ripping a man's throat out with some finger technique is an echo of Gregor's Lance piercing Ser Hugh's throat (2) much is made of Ser Hugh's new armor and the Burned Men have new armor and weapons (3) Ser Hugh's armored arm looks like fire by the sunlight before it disappears (4) Sweetrobin's doll knocks on the door and destroys both gatetowers of the gatehouse of the snow castle which fits the description of the Bloody Gate (5) Tyrion is referenced as a giant several times, and he's the one who armed the mountain clans and promised to give the Vale to them (6) The crescent moons of Ser Hugh's cloak turning red one by one; if an earthquake causes a devestating avalanche that massacres people at the Gates of the Moon, then the Bloody Gate will suffer damage as well, allowing the mountain clans to conquer it.)
• Sansa will experience some angsty times when it comes to Harry the Heir, but ultimately will succeed in securing Harry’s affections. The betrothal will become official. Chances are high she will have her first lover’s kiss from a knight. However, the kiss most likely will provoke Sweetrobin and him running away, right at the onset of the earthquake. (evidence: (1) Loras joust against Robar Royce, his horse bedecked with a blanket of red and white roses, while red and white is the color of Harry; 'plucking flowers' related to maidens and giving Sansa a red rose, but riding off (2) The 'sweet' reference in relation to the rose which foretells tragedy and loss of a loved one (3) all sorts of men and even a dog kissing Sansna but until now never someone she fell in love with nor a knight (4) Sweetrobin's jealousy and posessiveness of Sansa (5) Sweetrobin walking in on Lf and Sansa.)
• Because of Sweetrobin’s untimely death, Littlefinger may wish to secure Harry’s loyalty by having Sansa wed to him. This would make her Lady Alayne of the Vale, but also a widow and without her maidenhood, which would pose later issues in securing her annullment of her marriage to Tyrion.
• Sansa will confront Littlefinger at some point during these disasters and be in the position to see him beheaded. His head will land on a stake of the castle. (evidence: (1) Sansa's detached feelings about Ser Hugh's death, thinking of him as a stranger, while shortly after Littlefinger talks to her overly familiar without introducing himself to her and is referred to as a man she does not know, aka a stranger (2) Sansa confronts LF with unexpected courage regarding his lies after he has helped her with the snow castle by throwing snow in his face (3) She sticks the head of SR's doll on a twig as if on a stake, while LF comments about it,but she dismisses his comment and "leaves him there"; the Baelish sigil is a giant's head (the Titan's head) (4) GoHH's prediction (5) Riverlanders at the foot of the Mountains of the Moon warning Sandor that the clan would kill him and take his daughter, while the sole characters in the Vale pretending to have a father-daughter relationship are LF & Sansa)
• Sansa either falls in the hands of the Burned Men, manages to flee to Yohn Royce or is taken by Shadrich. For several reasons, it seems most likely that she opts to flee with Shadrich, which is an ill fated choice, since he rides a red horse. What will happen then is not foreshadowed in her chapters, other than the knowledge that she will be on her knees by the time dawn has conquered the Long Night. (evidence: Sansa has a bad record when it comes to choosing the red horse side or another. In Ned's chapter of the tourney it is very evident that betting on the red horse is the wrong choice - Jaime rides a red horse, and ends up unhorsed, his helm stuck on his head, and needing assistance to be taken to the blacksmith, blind and stumbling, while LF bet on Jaime and lost the wager. Sansa has bet on the Lannisters (Jaime in golden Lannister armor and red horse is also featured like that in Sansa's tourney chapter) over her father's decisions and she ended up as their hostage. Sansa bet on trusting Dontos who never even managed to get on his red stallion in the tourney of Joffrey's name day. This trust sabotaged her escape from KL with Tyrell help and her betrothal to Willas Tyrell. She ended up married to Tyrion instead and known as an accomplice to Joffrey's murder, and in the Vale instead of say North in White Harbor. And Shadrich rides a chestnut horse, which is a brownish red. Meanwhile LF and Yohn Royce himself made Sansa not regard John Royce in a good light, and it is highly unlikely that Sansa would trust the Burned Men).

So, while Littlefinger and Lysa saved and spared the Vale army forces by keeping out of any war, most likely an amassed number of heirs, knights and lords will simply die for nothing with the avalanche, and afterwards fighting the Mountain Clans. The Vale as we know it will implode and be split between Yohn Royce and mountain clans.

There is more evidence, but those are the most important ones. Many consider the snow castle building a positive foreshadowing passage, but it isn't for several textual reasons. When "Dawn" is explicitly and repetitively mentioned in that scene in Sansa's mind, she's down on her knees. She doesn't know in that scene how she got to be in that position, but soon thinks that instead of "a new day" she recollects the "old days", which serves as a bridge from the future "dawn" to the present at the Vale until dawn. That's when she starts to build the snow castle, and LF comes to help her, but several giants destroy their mutual dream (SR, SR's doll, SR the size of a mountain in comparison to the castle). Sansa, LF and the reader will first see their hopes for a positive outcome through the Vale soar, only to have them crushed. That is the overall message of the snow castle scene.

While LF is most likely slowly poisoning SR and hopes he will die, many forget that LF does not want SR to die just yet nor too soon either. SR can't die before LF is sure that Harry will trust LF. LF needs to maintain his political power in the Vale for as long as possible. If you get to choose between a minor in need of a regent, or his heir who is already off age and distrustful of LF because of Yohn Royce, then LF needs SR for a few years yet. Harry falling in love with Sansa and agreeing to the match with Alayne Stone is not security enough for LF. The only way SR can disrupt LF's plans and long term dream is by dying too soon and unexpectedly, making Harry Lord of the Vale all of a sudden. And with SR dead, we suddenly get a rival situation between Harry and Timett. And the mountain clans can never be a real threat to the seats of House Arryn without fundamental damage to the Bloody Gate and Gates of the Moon, which was built on the campsite where the winged knight and Andals gathered against the High King Royce of the First Men in the final battle where the Andals defeated the First Men.

So, for LF's plans to go down the tubes (and they will), we need on the one hand an avalanche destroying the Eyrie and Gates of the Moon and weakening the Bloody Gate first, before mountain clans conquer the Bloody Gate, and on the other hand SR dying and finally Harry dying, but Sansa with enough political power and confidence to leave him or order his death.

Extensive analysis on the evidence can be found in my blog article: the trail of the red stallion III - Sansa and the Giants

[LmL]

Hey Sweetsunray. What I think is interesting is all the ways George finds to manifest his Lightbringer monomyth - the sun / comet / moon story. He uses the same basic template to create scene after scene. And he somehow works in foreshadowing of unique, specific events inside of these scenes as well... it's amazing. I think we are headed for another moon sacrifice which will bring a snowstorm, and I have thought so for a long time, so it continues to fascinate me that you found this more localized foreshadowing of a snowstorm when the Giant's Lance will fall like a mountain and cause moon death, bloody moons, and a snowstorm. 

So far I have found the foreshadowing of a second moon collision and snowstorm in a couple of places: a Jon Snow scene and a Bran scene. 

Jon's scene is the one where the white wolf races in a black wood, followed by a white moon that promises snow in the voice of a raven. Jon wakes up and tries to kill the raven with a feather pillow, which results in the pillow hitting the wall and creating a "flurry" of presumably white feathers that fill the air. That's Azor Ahai reborn, destroying a moon symbol to create a snowstorm, with a side of something impacting the Wall.  Right after this, there's a reference to "roast raven," aka a burning meteor. That completes the picture - the raven is a moon promising snow and then a burning meteor which causes a snowstorm. 

Then we have the Nightfort scene with Bran, with Sam coming up out of the well in the eight-sided room with a broken dome. That entire scene is a very detailed Lightbringer forging metaphor, complete with a black leviathan rising from the depths, a reference a the lightning strike on a tower, a blacksmith's bellows, and of course the weirwood reaching for the moon and trying to drag it down into the well. At the end of that scene, Summer the Direwolf leaps down "through the moonlight" and lands as light and quiet as a snowfall. We've already pulled the moon down through the broken dome (symbolically at least), so the wolf leaping down through the moonlight is surely referring to something falling from the moon, which lands like a snowfall. 

Great catch on the association between the crescent or horned moon and massacre. That's right on the money - it connotates sacrifice. There's another great one when Bran comes upon the clearing where One-Eye's pack of wolves are feasting on the mutineers Coldhands butchered. A decapitated head peers up sightlessly at the horned moon, something like that. I take the horned moon at the Eyrie in AGOT as a reference to the downfall of House Stark, which comes about due to Cat's decision to take Tyrion hostage and take him to the Vale (in part, at least), but it's possible we haven't seen the full massacre promised here yet. Tyrion is setting events in motion here which may end with the foreshadowing you're referring to, so it all ties together. 

Lastly, I'll just mention that George consistently uses the tops of towers and mountains and the heads of people to symbolize celestial bodies. When a moon maiden like Lyanna does in a tower... when a moon maiden like Ashara dies of a broken heart and leaps from a tower... when Queenscrown is struck by lightning and loses half its crown... these are things falling from heaven. When important people are decapitated, it's the same. And so, if the tip of the Giants Lance breaks off, that too symbolizes a falling celestial body, which fits nicely with a moon meteor causing a snowstorm in this case. The moon's turning to blood is a giveaway for moon death. 

[sweetsunray]

Exactly, LmL. In fact, originally I regarded the description of Ser Hugh's death and moons becoming bloody as an echo of the moon destruction and saw it as a paragraph that nicely fits your celestial disaster theory. It wasn't until I realized there was a connection to Gregor's Lance and the Giant's Lance that suddenly I realized it most likely was also a foreshadowing of a local disaster. Everything else is just extra confirmation of such a disaster in the Vale waiting and looming to happen.

Btw a powder snow avalanche has the deadliest potential of natural disasters... When you think volcanoes and deadliest volcano activity we know it's a pyroclastic eruption. A powder snow avalanche is snow's analogues event to a pyroclastic eruption. It can have a speed up to 300 mph, and it won't be stopped by a valley, and can go uphill even. Strongest hurricanes we know are type 5, which have speeds of > 157 mph. The last few years scientists advocate creating a type 6 designation for speeds > 170 mph. So, basically a powder snow avalanche would be a hurricane type 10.

[LmL]

Oh and BTW, Timmet's eye wound and burned hand sigil fits Pete fly with the celestial anatomy of God. The burned hand represents the fiery hand of God, which flings fiery fingers (meteors), such as in my much-beloved Benerro scene in ADWD, and the one eye wound which is found in so many places in ASOIAF I believe refers to the Gods Eye, the moon-as-pupil-solar-eclipse alignment. Jon and Tyrion both have a type of eye wound, Jon has the burned hand, Jamie gets an eye wound in the chapter he loses his hand in, etc. So, Timmet fits all the Gods Anatomy Astronomical Symbols, and therefore the idea of him being more important in the future seems right to me. :)

[LmL]

Oh and of course Timmet lives in the Mountains of the Moon and leads the Burned Men, who used to pray to a fire witch and a dragon.  And that witch and dragon used to ride with Daemon Targaryen, who killed Aemon One Eye on dragonback by shoving Dark Sister into his good eye above the lake called the God's Eye. Is this making sense yet? ;)

[LmL]

"The riverlands (Milky Way) are awash in blood and flame all around the God's Eye (sun/moon conjunction)."

 

There's another quote about the lake appearing to be on fire, and yet another about the lake appearing to be a sheet of hammered metal in the sun. While down in Dorne, the sun beats down like a fiery hammer. :)

[Voice]

"The riverlands (Milky Way) are awash in blood and flame all around the God's Eye (sun/moon conjunction)."

Solar eclipse.

[Sly Wren]

There is more evidence, but those are the most important ones. Many consider the snow castle building a positive foreshadowing passage, but it isn't for several textual reasons. When "Dawn" is explicitly and repetitively mentioned in that scene in Sansa's mind, she's down on her knees. She doesn't know in that scene how she got to be in that position, but soon thinks that instead of "a new day" she recollects the "old days", which serves as a bridge from the future "dawn" to the present at the Vale until dawn. That's when she starts to build the snow castle, and LF comes to help her, but several giants destroy their mutual dream (SR, SR's doll, SR the size of a mountain in comparison to the castle). Sansa, LF and the reader will first see their hopes for a positive outcome through the Vale soar, only to have them crushed. That is the overall message of the snow castle scene.

While I agree with the bolded--that Littlefinger's plans will be crushed--I don't agree that's the overall message of the scene. Note that the scene is fine--until Littlefinger enters. His engagement, on multiple levels, mucks things up. 

But at the start of the scene--the hour of the wolf right before dawn. Sansa's waking from a dream about Arya. Dressing in blue (hello, Lyanna!). And being willing to enter the pure world offered her by the snow. She thinks it's too pure. But steps in anyway--that's when she loses time and ends up on her knees. 

The snow is memory, salvation, and lover's kisses in that scene. If you are right, as I think you are, then the avalanche--the snow--is the real salvation. NOT Littlefinger. 

Also, note the echoes between Jon's moment at dawn and Sansa's:

Jon, the night before his "revelation," looking at the stars to understand his identity:

QUOTE: So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." Storm, Jon III

Jon, the next morning, at dawn, after not giving into despair, but allowing himself to hope:

QUOTE: Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface. Storm, Jon IV

SANSA QUOTE:Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow. Storm, Sansa VII

Jon's the thief. Sansa's the moonmaid. Jon sees his identity at Dawn. Sansa sees hers in the snow.

And it fits with your idea of the avalanche's being transformative:

Quote: The snow fell and the castle rose.

Quote: And all the while the snow kept falling, piling up in drifts around her buildings as fast as she raised them.

Note that the show raises Winterfell from her memory. The falling snow is the opportunity. Everyone else sees what she's doing but goes back in and hides. 

So, I really think the snow is salvation and a lover. Vs. the false lovers (Littlefinger, Marillion, Robin). Only when Littlefinger interferes with his plans do things start to go awry. He looks like he's helping, but makes trouble by the end of the chapter. When Sansa just relies on snow and memory--the snow can fall all it likes. It falls and her castle rises.

 

[Sly Wren]

Oh and BTW, Timmet's eye wound and burned hand sigil fits Pete fly with the celestial anatomy of God. The burned hand represents the fiery hand of God, which flings fiery fingers (meteors), such as in my much-beloved Benerro scene in ADWD, and the one eye wound which is found in so many places in ASOIAF I believe refers to the Gods Eye, the moon-as-pupil-solar-eclipse alignment. Jon and Tyrion both have a type of eye wound, Jon has the burned hand, Jamie gets an eye wound in the chapter he loses his hand in, etc. So, Timmet fits all the Gods Anatomy Astronomical Symbols, and therefore the idea of him being more important in the future seems right to me.

And since you're happy with the astronomical imagery , I'll point out that it fits some of the less astronomical imagery. IE: When Sansa is saved in the throne room by Tyrion and the tribesmen (Including Burned Man Timmet), the scene starts with the Hound--the VERY Burned man warning/trying to protect Sansa.

So, sweetsunray--I think you've nailed the potential role of the clansmen. And Sansa's potential tie. After all, Sansa is the original charmer of the very large, very burned man. Who eschews the very concept of knighthood the tourney is supposed to promote.

[LmL]

Solar eclipse.

Yes, an eclipse at the moment of impact is one of many components of the disaster, but the moon must crack and bleed and birth dragons, and the eye must be blinded. Lightbringer must enter Nissa Nissa, and the Hammer of the Gods must strike with its mighty thunderbolt. 

[sweetsunray]

While I agree with the bolded--that Littlefinger's plans will be crushed--I don't agree that's the overall message of the scene. Note that the scene is fine--until Littlefinger enters. His engagement, on multiple levels, mucks things up. 

But at the start of the scene--the hour of the wolf right before dawn. Sansa's waking from a dream about Arya. Dressing in blue (hello, Lyanna!). And being willing to enter the pure world offered her by the snow. She thinks it's too pure. But steps in anyway--that's when she loses time and ends up on her knees. 

The snow is memory, salvation, and lover's kisses in that scene. If you are right, as I think you are, then the avalanche--the snow--is the real salvation. NOT Littlefinger. 

Also, note the echoes between Jon's moment at dawn and Sansa's:

Jon, the night before his "revelation," looking at the stars to understand his identity:

QUOTE: So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." Storm, Jon III

Jon, the next morning, at dawn, after not giving into despair, but allowing himself to hope:

QUOTE: Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface. Storm, Jon IV

SANSA QUOTE:Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow. Storm, Sansa VII

Jon's the thief. Sansa's the moonmaid. Jon sees his identity at Dawn. Sansa sees hers in the snow.

And it fits with your idea of the avalanche's being transformative:

Quote: The snow fell and the castle rose.

Quote: And all the while the snow kept falling, piling up in drifts around her buildings as fast as she raised them.

Note that the show raises Winterfell from her memory. The falling snow is the opportunity. Everyone else sees what she's doing but goes back in and hides. 

So, I really think the snow is salvation and a lover. Vs. the false lovers (Littlefinger, Marillion, Robin). Only when Littlefinger interferes with his plans do things start to go awry. He looks like he's helping, but makes trouble by the end of the chapter. When Sansa just relies on snow and memory--the snow can fall all it likes. It falls and her castle rises.

 

Actually, nothing goes awry with the snow castle when LF interferes. Things go wrong when she confronts him and he admits his lies and kisses her, and when sweetrobin shows up.

You know I believe snow is a connection for Sansa with the Underworld and her power, and that connecting with it is healthy for her. However, she also notes that the soil is too stony and that no weirwood could take root there: in other words ... nothing can take root for her in the Vale or grow from it, and there are no gods. She's in the wrong location to realize her dream.

You are right though that LF's position eskews Sansa's visions - she cannot see that Yohn Royce might actually be of help to her more than LF is, and I doubt she would regard the mountain clans as a positive opportunity. Since the Mad Mouse rides a red horse, I fear there is a very big chance she flees the Vale with him, but ends up in the wrong arc/plot again.

When it comes to foreshadowing the Vale arc I regard the garden scene as follows: Long Night (Sansa waking dreaming of old times, and having nightmares) - Dawn (Sansa on her knees) - predating Long Night (What happens to bring Sansa down on her knees). That's why there's a blank for Sansa how she ended up on her knees in the garden... the garden scene is not chronological: we get to see the result before the cause.

[Voice]

Yes, an eclipse at the moment of impact is one of many components of the disaster, but the moon must crack and bleed and birth dragons, and the eye must be blinded. Lightbringer must enter Nissa Nissa, and the Hammer of the Gods must strike with its mighty thunderbolt. 

Men stick their Nissa Nissa's with their pointy ends all the time. And when it's the first time, their swords are bloodied, and its eye is blinded. LOL