What was the Biggest Cause of Robb's Demise

[Sullen]

I'll confess that I never understood Robb's goal. I get the short term goal of freeing Riverrun. After that, though, what did he want? Who was he fighting? Is it the Lannisters, specifically, or has he declared war on the Iron throne? Does he want to take Casterly Rock? Does he want to take KL? If he's simply declaring independence, why not go back and build up his forces in the North?

What does he want???

 

At first, liberating Riverrun and protecting the Riverlands.

Then, freeing his sisters and getting revenge for his father's execution by putting Joffrey's head on a pike.

Finally, obtaining independence from the Throne itself, while still keeping in mind the previous two objectives.

[kimim]

At first, liberating Riverrun and protecting the Riverlands.

Then, freeing his sisters and getting revenge for his father's execution by putting Joffrey's head on a pike.

Finally, obtaining independence from the Throne itself, while still keeping in mind the previous two objectives.

I get the first bit. Freeing sisters and putting Joff's head on a pike, though, don't fit with his decision to crown himself.

There are already two "kings" who want Joff's head on a pike--Renly and Stannis. When Robb accepts the crown, he turns himself from a potential ally with one of those guys to a competitor. If he simply wants to remove Joff, why accept that crown? Why not go immediately for an alliance with Renly or Stannis?

edit: Accepting the crown also puts his sister in danger. Renly or Stannis might take KL. Sansa is at KL, and Robb's declared independence (I think). Sansa remains in KL, a hostage, whether Joff's head's on a pike or not.

[Sullen]

I get the first bit. Freeing sisters and putting Joff's head on a pike, though, don't fit with his decision to crown himself.

There are already two "kings" who want Joff's head on a pike--Renly and Stannis. When Robb accepts the crown, he turns himself from a potential ally with one of those guys to a competitor. If he simply wants to remove Joff, why accept that crown?

Because his lords pressured him into it.

It's not a rational decision in any way.

[Maxxine]

I'll confess that I never understood Robb's goal. I get the short term goal of freeing Riverrun. After that, though, what did he want? Who was he fighting? Is it the Lannisters, specifically, or has he declared war on the Iron throne? Does he want to take Casterly Rock? Does he want to take KL? If he's simply declaring independence, why not go back and build up his forces in the North?

What does he want???

 

This is a good question. I think when he first calls the banners and leaves Winterfell he just wants to free Ned. After Ned dies I think it gets a bit muddled. I don't know if the Riverlands are part of his goal initally, but then they become a part of goals by default after saving Riverrun. He wants Sansa & Arya (he doesn't know Arya isn't in Kings Landing) back, but he never treats them as a priority. He wants independence, but that only comes after they randomly proclaim him King in the North. After Ned dies, it seems to mostly be about revenge, which has no clear direction as you pointed out. Maybe another mistake on Robb's part.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, this, essentially.

Or, the obvious, him rebelling against the Iron Throne at all.

Robert also rebelled against the Throne and they won. Of course, the difference here is that Arryn knew how to play better his political cards and people united against Aerys. Instead of people uniting against Joffrey, they all looked for their own convenience. Robb was the only one who seemed to have fought for a semi rightful cause: Joffrey insulted the North. He wanted nothing else but avenge his father. The rest wanted a piece of power. Even if Arryn's main goal was to gain some power, he knew how to pull strings that would benefit many instead.

[Sullen]

Robert also rebelled against the Throne and they won. Of course, the difference here is that Arryn knew how to play better his political cards and people united against Aerys. Instead of people uniting against Joffrey, they all looked for their own convenience. Robb was the only one who seemed to have fought for a semi rightful cause: Joffrey insulted the North. He wanted nothing else but avenge his father. The rest wanted a piece of power. Even if Arryn's main goal was to gain some power, he knew how to pull strings that would benefit many instead.

Renly wanted to save his ass from murderous schemers, crowning himself was the only way to do that.

Joffrey and Stannis both fought for their birthrights.

Balon wanted to bring  his withered and suffering people back to an era of prosperity, something he thought could not be done under the oppression of the Iron Throne.

I'd say all of the Kings had perfectly valid cases for crowning themselves, Robb excluded. He did have a cause to rise up against Joffrey, but declaring himself independent was completely uncalled for and turned everyone against him.

[kimim]

Renly wanted to save his ass from murderous schemers, crowing himself was the only way to do that.

Joffrey and Stannis both fought for their birthrights.

Balon wanted to bring  his withered and suffering people back to an era of prosperity, something he thought could not be done under the oppression of the Iron Throne.

I'd say all of the Kings had perfectly valid cases for crowning themselves, Robb excluded. He did have a cause to rise up against Joffrey, but declaring himself independent was completely uncalled for and turned everyone against him.

ita on all this. It's too easy to dismiss everyone but Robb.

So the main problem with Robb's campaign would be a vague goal (revenge) with no long-term planning.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If the biggest cause of Robb's demise was betrayal, then we should ask why. People didn't betray Tywin because they were afraid of him, which isn't the same as respect, btw. People though highly of Robb, but they neither respect them or were afraid of him. I don't see Karstark pulling the number he did with Ned

Well being afraid probably plays a part in it, but that is true for any Lord. Umber only does what Robb wants him to do because he is threatened with execution, the Dustins and Rysewells only send men because they are afraid of the repercussions of not doing so and we can safely say that is true of the Boltons as well. Every Overlord is going to have vassals who do things out of fear.

I'd say that Tywin is highly respected within the Westerlands, but that is a different argument.

 

But another key reason you have missed for the Westerlands loyalty to the Lannisters is the marriage alliances they have. In the last couple of generations we know of Lannister marriage alliances to the Jasts, Marbrands, Presters, Stackspears, Swyfts, Leffords, Crakehalls, Braxs and Lannisters of Lannisport. Possibly more, the Lannisters were highly connected with their vassals unlike the Starks who in the same time frame were only connected to one of the Mountain Clans and the Lockes.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Because his lords pressured him into it.

It's not a rational decision in any way.

But they didn't. There was three Northern lords present at that meeting.

There seems to this almighty desire to deny Robb of any agency in this series. The claims that it was a magic potion that made him marry Jeyne or that he was 'forced' to become King are not really backed up in the text.

[Sullen]

But they didn't. There was three Northern lords present at that meeting.

There seems to this almighty desire to deny Robb of any agency in this series. The claims that it was a magic potion that made him marry Jeyne or that he was 'forced' to become King are not really backed up in the text.

Glover, Karstark, Mormont, and Umber, that's four of them. But the amount of lords is redundant. 

Fact is, Robb is a stupid teenager with no ruling experience. His vassals started clamoring for him to crown himself, he's unsure of himself and just goes with the flow. I'd say he was pressured into it, mate.

The love potion theory is absolute BS though. Robb was horny, naive, and inexperienced in matters of diplomacy, he did not know how badly he fucked up at the moment. That was entirely his fault.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Glover, Karstark, Mormont, and Umber, that's four of them. But the amount of lords is redundant. 

Fact is, Robb is a stupid teenager with no ruling experience. His vassals started clamoring for him to crown himself, he's unsure of himself and just goes with the flow. I'd say he was pressured into it, mate.

The clamour for independence or rebellion was not unjustified. As I said, Robert and Ned did the same after Aerys executed two Starks and asked for their heads. Also, they kept two Starks as hostages and murdered members of the North and Jaime tried to kill Bran.

And of course, we don't know if the Northern Lords had any other intentions behind this. Maybe they thought that naming Robb King would gain them his favour? If they did, I'm sure this is something Robb never considered because he's Ned Stark levels of gullible.

Robb is not an established leader as Ned was. This was his first real test. Had he said no, he could have been perceived as a weak leader too. There is not an easy way out for this situation except politics. Renly was open to talk, but Stannis was simply stubborn and didn't want to hear the North's reasons.

[Sullen]

The clamour for independence or rebellion was not unjustified. As I said, Robert and Ned did the same after Aerys executed two Starks and asked for their heads. Also, they kept two Starks as hostages and murdered members of the North and Jaime tried to kill Bran.

And of course, we don't know if the Northern Lords had any other intentions behind this. Maybe they thought that naming Robb King would gain them his favour? If they did, I'm sure this is something Robb never considered because he's Ned Stark levels of gullible.

Robb is not an established leader as Ned was. This was his first real test. Had he said no, he could have been perceived as a weak leader too. There is not an easy way out for this situation except politics. Renly was open to talk, but Stannis was simply stubborn and didn't want to hear the North's reasons.

Eddard and Robert did not claim independence though, the opposed the tyranny of the Targaryen dynasty while technically upholding the legitimacy of the Iron Throne as an institution. Aerys's actions and Joffrey's were on two whole different levels as well.

Joffrey was justified in his actions, and his treatment of Ned was merciful, considering Ned tried to usurp his throne the day right after the death of his father. Aerys on the other hand gave a painful death to Brandon, who was guilty of way less, and Rickard, who was not guilty of anything. They kept the Arya and Sansa hostage only after Ned attempted a coup, nothing wrong here, and Jaime's attempted murder of Bran is not known to any of them, so it's irrelevant in the question of independence.

I don't doubt the Northern lords were planning to get anything out of crowning Robb. They are proven schemers after all.

Finally, what is being perceived a weak leader against antagonizing everyone around you? Robb should have firmly refused, siding with both his mother and Stevron Frey on this issue, not doing so got him the enmity of Renly and Stannis, and led to the Ironborn jumping on the North's undefended rump.

[Swordofmorning]

I have always been curious about the root of Roose's betrayal though? Was it because he thought Robb was going to lose? His marriage with Fat Walda? Remembering the long rooted rivalry between Bolton & Stark? Potential to become Warden of the North?

I think it was all the reasons put together. 

His marriage with Walda was just to make an alliance with the Freys though.

He was a smart man. He knew the war was lost when Stannis was defeated at the BW. 

He is a ambitious man. It is hinted by lady Dustin that he may even declare himself the KITN now.

[Kaibaman]

I have to agree with whoever said he didn't put Roose on a tighter leash. I don't think making Roose his second in command was a terrible decision because the guy did seem like the most level headed out of all the other Northern lords. Robb's biggest failure was not keeping him under scrutiny. Even if Roose had a reputation of being a loyal honorable man like his father, the man didn't have any personal stakes in the Stark's survival and would most likely put his own interests ahead of Robb's. And I know given how far reaching his campaign against the Lannisters was, Robb couldn't be everywhere at once but he should have kept men that he trusted to keep an eye on Roose and his Bolton lieutenants such as have spies report their activities and intercept their letters. With those measures in place Roose would have had a hard time sabotaging the Northern effort and conspiring against Robb.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Well if we are being entirely results oriented then having Catelyn in camp probably ranks up there. If he kept her around for counsel he certainly didn't use it and it only gave her access to free possibly the best chance of stopping the war extremely early.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Well if we are being entirely results oriented then having Catelyn in camp probably ranks up there. If he kept her around for counsel he certainly didn't use it and it only gave her access to free possibly the best chance of stopping the war extremely early.

Camps? You mean Riverrun, her fathers Castle.

Robb could have ended the war at any time, all he had to do was offer reasonable terms. That could have happened with or without Jaime.

[Protagoras]

Very hard to decide between the Ironborn invasion and Stannis in general.

Regardless of Theon´s actions we have an invasion with a far more mobile enemy who uses his best troops against some of your weakest.

And hadn´t Stannis killed Renly and then lost at Blackwater the Tyrells either hadn't joined the Lannisters or hadn´t been strong/free enough to effectively fight against Robb. Robb was defeated before his personal demise.

Instead of plunder I would had offered Cape Kraken to the Ironborn in return for their help. Maybe that had worked better - who knows.

[LordDireStark]

Robb's biggest mistake was sending peace terms to Cersai/Tyrion. When you're the leader of an army you send terms to the opposing army's leader. And more importantly you send those terms to the person who weilds the true power,which in this case was Tywin. If he proposed exchanging Jaime for Sansa and Arya along with swapping other prisoners and then saying he would take his army back north and returned to winterfell as the warden of the north,Tywin might have agreed.Because as far as Tywin was concerned,Stannis was a bigger concern.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb's biggest mistake was sending peace terms to Cersai/Tyrion. When you're the leader of an army you send terms to the opposing army's leader. And more importantly you send those terms to the person who weilds the true power,which in this case was Tywin. If he proposed exchanging Jaime for Sansa and Arya along with swapping other prisoners and then saying he would take his army back north and returned to winterfell as the warden of the north,Tywin might have agreed.Because as far as Tywin was concerned,Stannis was a bigger concern.

If he made that deal to Tyrion and Cersei they would have accepted,but he didn't. He purposefully proposed a deal that would be rejected.

[Celtic Cross]

Double post