Criston Cole: The kingmaker

[Luvlydoll]

Just for thoughts about this character. What his childhood must have been like, inspiration for Cole from history or fiction, his relationship to various members of the royal family (King Viserys, Aegon, Rhaenyra, Alicent), his personality, his death, his feud with Daemon, headcannons, and whatever else you can think of. I can't be the only one that finds his character fascinating?

[purple-eyes]

I am always wondering if he really had sexual relationship with rhaenyra or just platonic love.  

Before wedding, did rhaenyra go to his room in white sword tower or he went to her chambers? 

 

[Luvlydoll]

I'm sure it wasn't platonic or casual crush. For Cole to be so hurt he sought so much revenge and Rhaenyra imo was trying her hardest to make him jealous and forget about him with Strong.

 

Either Rhaenyra went to him or he came to her I think either way Rhaemyra wouldn't give him what he wanted. 

[purple-eyes]

I'm sure it wasn't platonic or casual crush. For Cole to be so hurt he sought so much revenge and Rhaenyra imo was trying her hardest to make him jealous and forget about him with Strong.

 

Either Rhaenyra went to him or he came to her I think either way Rhaemyra wouldn't give him what he wanted. 

I personally do not believe cole adked rhaenyra to elope. Cole was like 35 years old at that moment, not a teenager. She is the future ruling queen. She is impossible to elope with him. And cole must know this. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Well, I guess Cole thought his cock would be enough to convince Rhaenyra to give up her crown. Just as the average guy thinks to this day that being some guy's housewife is the wet dream of the average woman but does not all that often consider such a career for himself.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Basically him & his morning star were undefeatable so he could be a bit bossy.  Like Bobby B or, say, The Mountain --in Westeros when no one can stand against you in combat you kind of can do what you want, like be a king or make a king or ravage the Rverlands etc

[Luvlydoll]

Does anyone have any ideas what the 10 black pellets on the Cole flag mean? 

[Lion of the West]

I think that we really know to little of Cole's character to say what he was motivated by. I know that many sees him as a tremendous bad guy and would want him to be all kinds of monsters and possess only evil traits and vices, I'm not sure that it would be like that even while it could be so.

My favorite suggestion for it would be that Cole was a chivalrous puritan who wanted Rhaenyra more as an ideal than a real person to whom he could direct his courtly love. When reality broke that fix idea, he went into the, as I've heard about it anyway, madonna-whore complex and changed his perception of her from the most virteous woman upon the earth to the viles creature below the heavens.

 

Does anyone have any ideas what the 10 black pellets on the Cole flag mean? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundel_(heraldry)

I don't think they have some deeper symbolic meaning. I would say the colors of red and black are more telling of him, and could well be a symbolic link made by GRRM to the Blackfyres.

http://www.familytreesandcrests.com/heraldry-symbols.htm

[Lord Varys]

LionoftheWest,

as far as I know 'courtly love' is essentially a literally genre rather than something that actually ever happened in reality. Sure, knights, noblemen, singers, and commoners alike sought the favor and patronage of various queens in history, but that doesn't mean that any of them actually 'loved' those women in any meaningful way. And those who did love them actually wanted to fuck them.

As a society Westeros seems to have courtly love in songs as well, but this is, quite obviously, never practiced in real life. There is unrequited love, of course, and love that never is erotically or sexually fulfilled, but nothing suggests that people really considered a courtly love thing an ideal.

The Criston Cole case makes the whole thing even more unlikely considering that he came into close contact with Rhaenyra at an early age when he began serving as her sworn shield. Just like Daemon did, he vied for her favor at a time when she was not yet a grown-up or even an adolescent, and if there was a sexual relationship between these than this would easily qualify as child molestation from a position of power. Cole was both more experienced and in a position of power and control over Rhaenyra in his role as her bodyguard.

Unlike real world Catholicism, the Faith doesn't seem to be all that into the whore-saint dichotomy in regards to women, therefore I'd find it very weird if Cole actually was into that kind of thing. Not to mention that this would make him a lot worse as a character than if he had just been thinking with his cock all the time. It is much more think to punish a woman for not fulfilling the image your fantasy of her created than punishing her for actually being rejected by her.

I really see Cole as a Kingsguard variation of a Littlefinger character. A very talented and ambitious man who rose as high as he could given his assets, eventually overcome by his own desires and his inability to really get what he wanted.

[Lion of the West]

LionoftheWest,

as far as I know 'courtly love' is essentially a literally genre rather than something that actually ever happened in reality. Sure, knights, noblemen, singers, and commoners alike sought the favor and patronage of various queens in history, but that doesn't mean that any of them actually 'loved' those women in any meaningful way. And those who did love them actually wanted to fuck them.

As a society Westeros seems to have courtly love in songs as well, but this is, quite obviously, never practiced in real life. There is unrequited love, of course, and love that never is erotically or sexually fulfilled, but nothing suggests that people really considered a courtly love thing an ideal.

The Criston Cole case makes the whole thing even more unlikely considering that he came into close contact with Rhaenyra at an early age when he began serving as her sworn shield. Just like Daemon did, he vied for her favor at a time when she was not yet a grown-up or even an adolescent, and if there was a sexual relationship between these than this would easily qualify as child molestation from a position of power. Cole was both more experienced and in a position of power and control over Rhaenyra in his role as her bodyguard.

Unlike real world Catholicism, the Faith doesn't seem to be all that into the whore-saint dichotomy in regards to women, therefore I'd find it very weird if Cole actually was into that kind of thing. Not to mention that this would make him a lot worse as a character than if he had just been thinking with his cock all the time. It is much more think to punish a woman for not fulfilling the image your fantasy of her created than punishing her for actually being rejected by her.

I really see Cole as a Kingsguard variation of a Littlefinger character. A very talented and ambitious man who rose as high as he could given his assets, eventually overcome by his own desires and his inability to really get what he wanted.

For the first thing, how come you never make quotes and so give people a notification that they have a post to respond to?

Secondly I think that you are running ahead of yourself here. To make general generalizations does not serve. I rather think that social systems, orders, values etc. have changed considerbal across time and space. And while I agree that courtly love has existed more as an ideal than as a practice, I would still think that its influence as an ideal within a popular and widespread medium should not be underestimated.

Thirldy, courtly love does to my knowledge not necessary include sexuality and what makes you think that Criston Cole would have had a sexual nature? But then again, and maybe I'm jumping ahead of myself here, but people love to paint the world in black-and-white and so reduce the spectrum of characters of Westeros into villains and heroes.

In the fourth instance, I would say that while the Faith does not hold all of Catholicism, or otherwise, prejudices Westeros society is to my knowledge drench in sexism and so I do not find it odd that this part would exist as well, Faith or not. In regards to making Criston Cole a worse character I don't really know how you reach that conclusion as doing something for emotional reason would have been the main cause of both scenarios. I don't see why the scenario I proposed would  involve more thinking than being rejected, and then hanging on the rejection for a very long time.

In regards to a variation of Littlefinger I can pretty much agree with it for the most part.

[Luvlydoll]

I think that we really know to little of Cole's character to say what he was motivated by. I know that many sees him as a tremendous bad guy and would want him to be all kinds of monsters and possess only evil traits and vices, I'm not sure that it would be like that even while it could be so.

My favorite suggestion for it would be that Cole was a chivalrous puritan who wanted Rhaenyra more as an ideal than a real person to whom he could direct his courtly love. When reality broke that fix idea, he went into the, as I've heard about it anyway, madonna-whore complex and changed his perception of her from the most virteous woman upon the earth to the viles creature below the heavens.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundel_(heraldry)

I don't think they have some deeper symbolic meaning. I would say the colors of red and black are more telling of him, and could well be a symbolic link made by GRRM to the Blackfyres.

http://www.familytreesandcrests.com/heraldry-symbols.htm

I don't see Criston as Puritan. His personality is never noted to be religious. The only instance we see about Cole being religious is as a motive for him turning down Rhaenyra. There is this quote "Seven save this realm if we seat a bastard on the Iron Throne. They will turn the Red Keep into a brothel. No man's daughter will be safe, nor any man's wife. Even the boys ... we know what Laenor was." But that sounds more like a bitter ex boyfriend calling his ex gf a slut than someone who is actually  religious. Plus he's trying to put everyone at that meeting onto his side, it looks better to say this than say I Want revenge so let's make Aegon King. 

I don't think he was committed to his kingsguard vows either. I think he used the kingsguard to get more power. He has no qualms about disobeying his vows by proclaiming Aegon King against Viserys orders. 

I think he was a sexual person because he is noted to be charming with the ladies unlike Baelor the Blessed for instance that hid his sister away for fear of lust. If he was so religious and or unsexual he probably would scorn the attention and favors of lads. Plus there's the  quote “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” That doesn't sound like a man who has no interst in girls. 

Also Criston knew Rhaenyra for many years, it's hard to keep up the idea of a perfect little princess when you see someone everyday, seen them go through puberty, etc. And there was rumors of Rhaenyra having an affair with Daemon way before she became engaged and they had their fall out. Rumors Criston surely heard yet still stayed on her side. 

I never thought of that about the flag being the same colors of the blackfyres, that's a really good idea. Pellets is just weir for being on a flag I just wish there was a story behind it like there is for every other house 

[Curled Finger]

I'm hoping we do find out what Cole's abrupt turn about on Rhaenyra was over.   He went against her from the very beginning before anyone knew her father was dead.   And he did it with great fervor and aggression.   I suspected rejection as I read this, but that could be way off too. A spurned rejected would be lover or suitor or small council member sure pledged his loyalties to the enemy decisively.   

[Luvlydoll]

I'm hoping we do find out what Cole's abrupt turn about on Rhaenyra was over.   He went against her from the very beginning before anyone knew her father was dead.   And he did it with great fervor and aggression.   I suspected rejection as I read this, but that could be way off too. A spurned rejected would be lover or suitor or small council member sure pledged his loyalties to the enemy decisively.   

Grr Martin likes leaving things up to interpretation so I don't see him giving us a definite answer and he really has no reason to clarify what happened btw Rhaenyra and Criston  since he already wrote all he wants to write about that period. 

 I think the only way we will get answers is if when got ends they choose to do a prequel about the dance of the dragons.

[Lion of the West]

I don't see Criston as Puritan. His personality is never noted to be religious. The only instance we see about Cole being religious is as a motive for him turning down Rhaenyra. There is this quote "Seven save this realm if we seat a bastard on the Iron Throne. They will turn the Red Keep into a brothel. No man's daughter will be safe, nor any man's wife. Even the boys ... we know what Laenor was." But that sounds more like a bitter ex boyfriend calling his ex gf a slut than someone who is actually  religious. Plus he's trying to put everyone at that meeting onto his side, it looks better to say this than say I Want revenge so let's make Aegon King. 

I don't think he was committed to his kingsguard vows either. I think he used the kingsguard to get more power. He has no qualms about disobeying his vows by proclaiming Aegon King against Viserys orders. 

I think he was a sexual person because he is noted to be charming with the ladies unlike Baelor the Blessed for instance that hid his sister away for fear of lust. If he was so religious and or unsexual he probably would scorn the attention and favors of lads. Plus there's the  quote “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” That doesn't sound like a man who has no interst in girls. 

Also Criston knew Rhaenyra for many years, it's hard to keep up the idea of a perfect little princess when you see someone everyday, seen them go through puberty, etc. And there was rumors of Rhaenyra having an affair with Daemon way before she became engaged and they had their fall out. Rumors Criston surely heard yet still stayed on her side. 

I never thought of that about the flag being the same colors of the blackfyres, that's a really good idea. Pellets is just weir for being on a flag I just wish there was a story behind it like there is for every other house 

For the start, I apologize for using a bad term, but with a puritan I didn't mean religious or devoted to religious causes. I used it in the sence that he held very strict views morality and conduct although in his case it was through the ideals of chivalry and courtly love rather than the Faith's morality.

Also I don't think that its the same thing to view a certain person as an idealized version of herself rather than a mere sexual object, and to be asexual which I haven't claimed he might have been.

The last part is of course a good suggestion in that just like in Robert's case, its easier to idealize someone you have distance to rather than someone you are close to. My answer to this would be that Cole was perhaps a bit high on the honor he'd been given by being Rhaenyra's sworn shield and so overlooked a great deal of things, but finally it dawned on him when Rhaenyra was becoming adult, that was wasn't the ideal he'd made her out to be in his own mind.

[DanaKz]

The real mystery is why they call him Kingmaker. He did nothing to deserve this title - Alicent, Aemond, Larys Strong, even Irorod did more for Aegon than Cristone Cole. Well, probably not Ironrod, but anyway. He did less, than many other Green supporters.  

Richard Neville would be disgusted to know he was compared to Cole.

 

[Lord Varys]

Well, we don't know how big a role Cole played behind the scenes to keep Otto Hightower and Alicent focused on the 'Aegon II plan' during the last decade or so of Viserys' reign. It could turn out that his hatred of Rhaenyra and her family played an equal or an even bigger part in the whole game than Hightower ambition.

We should not forget that Cole sat on the Small Council for decades, and was most certainly supporting Alicent's pleas that Viserys I recall Ser Otto as Hand in the wake of Lord Lyonel's death.

Rhaenyra being the object of courtly love in a non-sexual way makes little sense for Cole in light of the fact that he met her as a young girl, and that she is described as precocious at the age of seven already. You would have to be really a weird kind of man to be not very physically drawn to one of the most beautiful and powerful young women of the whole Realm. Not to mention that Cole himself is described as very handsome, too, the most adored man at court by all the ladies at court (Rhaenyra included). The idea that he didn't have his share of affairs prior to joining the KG as well as thereafter doesn't make any sense to me. This is the party-and-feast court of Viserys I we are talking about. There would have been great parties and tourneys every turn of the mood, and the best knight of the Realm would always have been in the midst of it all.

The idea that any sane man (i.e. in this context any man whose mind is not poisoned by specific anti-sex and anti-woman ideas) would actually came to hate a woman who actually admitted to him that she was physically attracted to him and wanted to have an affair with him doesn't make any sense to me. Cole wasn't raised as a member of the Society of St. Pius X nor did he grow up to be priest or a monk strictly focused on the divine image of the Virgin Mother Mary. He wasn't even a septon - and even those don't share the really weird view of femininity that is prone in die-hard Christianity (the Faith actually includes the female aspects into the seven aspects of god unlike Christianity where the deity is exclusively male, and the only ideal woman - Mary - is a mother while remaining a maiden, a concept that doesn't make any sense at all).

It makes sense that Cole was too proud to be nothing more than Rhaenyra's official paramour and the father of her children (which Ser Harwin seems to have become). He would have interpreted that as her not loving him enough to run away with him to marry him in exile. But anyone who actually condemns another person for actually being in love with you and wanting some sort of physical relationship is very twisted in my opinion. And we really have no reason to believe that Cole had such a personality. Besides from Mushroom's one claim about him being as chaste as an old septa - which is a very strange phrase of words anyway. I don't think Mushroom believed that septas were particularly chaste...

[Lion of the West]

The idea that any man who is attractive and with a sexual life before joining the Kingsguard would have per definition have not cared a bit about his vows of the Kingsguard from the start to finish does not hold water as it narrows down the vast diversity of character and people into just a single narrow file. Truth is that its entirely possible that Criston Cole, at least temporarily, gav up sex when donned with the white cloak and there is Mushroom's mentioning that Criston Cole was a chaste as an old septa. An example from the books would give us Jaime Lannister who was also very handsome, was a known and successful knight and only had a single sexual relation in his entirely life, which would seem to not make sense at all, yet we know its the truth.

And in regards to Mushroom's comment, I don't see Mushroom as being particuarly sublte or clever and thus while its entirley possible that he was ironic, I see no more reason to think its like that than to think that he comments on that Cole was as a real bore.

In regards as to why Criston Cole would come to hate Rhaenyra I see no reason as to why Criston Cole was not infected with the sexism of Westerosi culture and thus why he wouldn't have some strange, to our minds, ideas about how women should behave and act. The Faith put Cersei through the Walk of Shame and Brienne had a less than chivalrous treatment by the various knights she encountered, so sexism is definietly a real aspect of Westeros.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Diving more into Cole's childhood, his dad was a steward, yes? Stewards are really only worth the results they produce for their lords, so Cole may have taken that lesson hard to heart. His skills as a warrior seem unequaled, and even with raw athleticism that took a lot of training. He was clearly ambitious, and I wonder if having spent so many years (successfully) trying to claim the Westerosi ladder  didn't leave him a bit blind to the reprecussions of his actions.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who slit the throat of an octogenarian just for disagreeing with him. Cole didn't try to reason with Beesbury, he didn't try to arrest him, he just executed him on the spot. Those kinds of overreaction are usually indicative of someone who has an "ends justify the means" outlook, which he would have acquired from decades of trying to up his status.

[Luvlydoll]

 

Diving more into Cole's childhood, his dad was a steward, yes? Stewards are really only worth the results they produce for their lords, so Cole may have taken that lesson hard to heart. His skills as a warrior seem unequaled, and even with raw athleticism that took a lot of training. He was clearly ambitious, and I wonder if having spent so many years (successfully) trying to claim the Westerosi ladder  didn't leave him a bit blind to the reprecussions of his actions.

I mean, we're talking about a guy who slit the throat of an octogenarian just for disagreeing with him. Cole didn't try to reason with Beesbury, he didn't try to arrest him, he just executed him on the spot. Those kinds of overreaction are usually indicative of someone who has an "ends justify the means" outlook, which he would have acquired from decades of trying to up his status.

More about Criston's childhood, I think he was probably an only child since we never hear of no other Cole's joining his side or the princess' or atleast the only male son. 

I think his father probably befriended a lord like Peter baelish's father, which led to Cole being squired by a high lord which is where he received all his training and helped him become an exceptional warrior. We know Cole already had his white armor and morning star his first melee. So maybe this lord saw so much potential in Cole he gave him all this nice armor and weapons. Cole's father a mere steward probably couldn't afford such nice things.

 

[Luvlydoll]

Cole and Rhaenyra had very different backgrounds, Cole was born to a steward and had to work for everything he has. Rhaenyra was a spoiled princess and proud of her lineage. This is why they can't understand eachother. I think their fight was a misunderstanding and both were way too proud to apologize. 

Cole probably offered to run off with him and Rhaenyra called him names, said he was inferior to her because she's a targaryen and a princess and he's just a peasant. Cole has been protecting this girl since she was a child, and to think she doesn't love him, was just using him and didn't think he was worthy of her. This KILLS him he's devoted his life to her. She's spoiled and self entitled and he hates her and wants revenge. Even when RhEnyra moves on, Criston doesn't years later he's still seeking revenge, with his vows he can't find anyone else or sore children like Rhaenyra. 

I see Criston as a very hot and cold person, unbalanced, ruthless, ambitious, but he could be charming, gallant and brave.