Strange finding in Ned chapter 2

[dRagonese]

So when Ned is talking to big Bobby they speak of how Jamie is going to be named warden of the east witch is strange just in that. But stranger still is Ned's reasoning to Robert as to why he shouldn't be warden. He says that when Tywin dies Jamie will become lord of casterly Rock witch we know is not possible since he is a knight of the Kings guard and can hold no lands or titles. So is this just a mistake by George by not knowing what his plans were as far as Kings guard vows or is it showing that lanisters are above the law?

[Taenqyrhae]

Most, if not all, of the first book was written while GRRM still planned a 3 book series with a 5 year gap that was outlined in the 1993 (4?) letter to the publisher.  Jaime originally was going to sit the Iron Throne by killing everyone before him in the line of succession, so that was probably a hint to Jaime's upcoming power grab, which was later abandoned.

[dRagonese]

Funny you say that I was just making another thread about how after reading that cover letter George wrote back then really makes clear that he put things in the first book that were definitely leading to a different outcome then we got. 

[CJ McLannister]

Tywin seemed to think that Jaime would eventually be released from his vows and become Lord.  He certainly had no plan to allow Tyrion to inherit, so he must have had something in mind.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

So when Ned is talking to big Bobby they speak of how Jamie is going to be named warden of the east witch is strange just in that. But stranger still is Ned's reasoning to Robert as to why he shouldn't be warden. He says that when Tywin dies Jamie will become lord of casterly Rock witch we know is not possible since he is a knight of the Kings guard and can hold no lands or titles. So is this just a mistake by George by not knowing what his plans were as far as Kings guard vows or is it showing that lanisters are above the law?

I think everyone always assumed that when Tywin died, Cersei would have Robert excuse Jaime from his oath to become Lord of Casterly Rock.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^The above or something like it, Tywin could offer to forgive a bunch of debt or something.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So when Ned is talking to big Bobby they speak of how Jamie is going to be named warden of the east witch is strange just in that. But stranger still is Ned's reasoning to Robert as to why he shouldn't be warden. He says that when Tywin dies Jamie will become lord of casterly Rock witch we know is not possible since he is a knight of the Kings guard and can hold no lands or titles. So is this just a mistake by George by not knowing what his plans were as far as Kings guard vows or is it showing that lanisters are above the law?

No, he will become Warden of the West, not Lord of Casterly Rock.

"An able and courageous man, no doubt," he said carefully, "but his father is Warden of the West, Robert. In time Ser Jaime will succeed to that honor. No one man should hold both East and West." He left unsaid his real concern; that the appointment would put half the armies of the realm into the hands of Lannisters.

 

Warden is a title that does not come with lands, but with military control of men for the King of Westeros. Jaime would inherit it from his father, Tyrion  would inherit the Rock but no one would be expecting him to lead the the Kings armies against threats in the West. Just like Robin and Cersei are not awarded those titles. I imagine Jeyne Arryn and Johanna Lannister were also not wardens when they ruled their respective regions.

 

[Hugorfonics]

 Probably a mistake, but, maybe not. He never says heir to the Rock

 "An able and courageous man, no doubt," he said carefully, "but his father is Warden of the West, Robert. In time Ser Jaime will succeed to that honor. No one man should hold both East and West."

It never states that Wardens can not be kingsguard or have to be a Lords heir. Not a mistake, just not a completed thought. 

 

Ahh. Littledragon beat me to it 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Still, it's weird that Ned assumed Jaime was going to inherit wardenship of the West. If Tyrion was Tywin's heir, why shouldn't he get that title, as well? On the other hand, dismissing a knight of the Kingsguard was unheard of. Cersei did so, with Ser Barry, for the first time in the history of that institution, so I very much doubt anyone assumed Jaime was going to be released.

All around a case of the so-called Early Installment Weirdness, I'll say. Certainly by the end of the first book GRRM decided on the "white cloaks serve for life" thing, but maybe Eddard II was written before he did.

[Lord Wraith]

Tywin seemed to think that Jaime would eventually be released from his vows and become Lord.  He certainly had no plan to allow Tyrion to inherit, so he must have had something in mind.

I think everyone always assumed that when Tywin died, Cersei would have Robert excuse Jaime from his oath to become Lord of Casterly Rock.

Seems plausible enough to me. At least in Tywin's mind. Or once Joffrey was king he could release Jaime.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Still, it's weird that Ned assumed Jaime was going to inherit wardenship of the West. If Tyrion was Tywin's heir, why shouldn't he get that title, as well?

He's a dwarf. Being Warden is a military title, you are supposed to be leading the Kings armies to threats from or within a particular region of the Kingdom. Unlike Jaime and the vast majority of male nobles, Tyrion was not a squire, did not get the same training in the ways of military. If Tyrion was not born and Cersie was the heir no one would expect her to become the Warden either.

Robert and Ned are not expecting Tyrion to lead armies.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

He's a dwarf. Being Warden is a military title, you are supposed to be leading the Kings armies to threats from or within a particular region of the Kingdom.

That's in the same dialogue where Ned argues for Sweetrobin to hold that office. No matter whether they were supposed to assume the responsibility personally, or just hold the title and have some real general do the actual job, if little Robert Arryn could do it, then so could Tyrion. If Tyrion couldn't, then neither could Sweetrobin.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That's in the same dialogue where Ned argues for Sweetrobin to hold that office. No matter whether they were supposed to assume the responsibility personally, or just hold the title and have some real general do the actual job, if little Robert Arryn could do it, then so could Tyrion. If Tyrion couldn't, then neither could Sweetrobin.

 

Ned is not so much bothered about Robin not having it, his real concerns are about the Lannisters pure and simple. This is what Ned says in his first chapter.

"In peace, the title is only an honor. Let the boy keep it. For his father's sake if not his own. Surely you owe Jon that much for his service."

When Robert disagrees Ned easily suggests others for the post.

"For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."

Ned was ready for that. "Yet we still must have a Warden of the East. If Robert Arryn will not do, name one of your brothers. Stannis proved himself at the siege of Storm's End, surely."

 

Ned was worried about a non Arryn being given the role during peace time as well as the Lannisters getting more influence. Plus Ned did not really see the possibility of war, not at this early moment in the book.

 

[King Jaime Lannister]

This passage does stand out as a little odd, but it is a Ned POV chapter.  Ned is quite naive when it comes to "The Game of Thrones" and this is a good example.  While Ned thinks of these big prestigious titles, Little Finger and Varys are 5 steps ahead of him without having traditional high positions.  

Maybe at first GRRM thought the the "Warden" title would be more prominent and latter lessened the impact of it. 

[WhitewolfStark]

Wardenships aren't inherited, they're awarded. And being Warden simply means you're in charge if something goes down military-wise in your region in the absence of the King. You have to lead the forces, plan the strategy, deal with the logistics of summoning and finding enough provisions for maintaining the armed forces you summon, etc. Kingsguard are allowed to be put in charge of military efforts (Ser Barristan led the invasion of one of the Iron Islands by Robert; Ser Lewyn was put in charge of the Dornish spears coming up the Boneway by Aerys), so really there's no issue here with Jaime being able to hold the position of Warden, as it's a military position more than anything else.

And the Wardenships make the most sense from a pre-Dornish integration standpoint as then the Warden of the West is concerned with rogue Ironborn (like if they choose to rebell... again. The Warden of the East is on the watch for Essosi invaders most likely. The Warden of the North is on the watch for wildlings breaching the Wall, and the Warden of the South was to guard the Seven Kingdoms from Dorne.

Still, Ned's concern is quite a big one as it gives Jaime control potentially over a tremendous amount of forces that would rival Highgarden in terms of military reach. Theoretically the Riverlands would be swamped from both the East and the West and if Ned (or Robb, if Ned could delay matters long enough) had to eventually face War with the Lannisters, he'd rather not march his army South into the Riverlands to be taken by two forces riding from the East and the West to meet him once he got close to the Trident.

Of course, that's assuming that Jaime could get all the fractious lords to agree to anything, and that War with the Lannisters was an unavoidable possibility in Ned's opinion, of course. There's also the straight out military power it affords Jaime and how he could potentially go a conquering on his own, if needs be.

Mostly the scene is about Ned trying to get Robert to quit digging his own grave by giving the Lannisters the plot, coffin, and headstone to do it with. Ned's trying to get Robert to reconcile either with Stannis (the ideal candidate for Warden of the East if Sweetrobin won't suffice) or to keep the Vale in a pro-Robert faction instead of a pro-Lannister one. Ned's trying to weaken the Lannisters and keep Robert alive (exactly the reasons why Robert said he wanted Ned in the first place), but Robert is impatient, wants to "satisfy" his nagging wife, feels rather upset with Lysa because she skipped town after Jon Arryn's funeral, doesn't listen to Ned even though he knows he should, and against all odds he's in a hurry to live fast and die young.

It would be like Lincoln in the US Civil War giving one man control of both the Army of the Potomac and the Division of the Mississippi (which he did with Ulysses Grant).  However, do that with the wrong man, and you might just find yourself deposed. Which going off of what someone else was saying, was likely what this was meant to build up towards, that everyone in King's Landing was busy playing their Game of Thrones and then in comes Jaime with this overly large army to assert himself as King.

And then GRRM started to garden and realized that wasn't going to happen after all. Instead Aegon looks primed to arrive in a game of thrones-depleted King's Landing with a large army at his back.