Does Tywin have any bastards?

[Maia]

On 7.4.2016 at 6:33 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I assume the whore at Chataya's had blonde hair and green eyes?

Didn't she have silvery hair or some such? I was thinking that she may have been Aerys's, myself. When did he swear off his philandering ways, again? IIRC, around the birth of Viserys, so she could be young and attractive enough still.

 

On 7.4.2016 at 10:42 PM, 239JMFL34109 said:

IT only takes one time so i feel like the odds are he has at least one but doesn't know or care.

There is moon tea and in case it fails there is abortion. If Tywin slept around - of which I am not sure, even despite Shae, he was meticulous enough in all aspects of his life to make clear rules for the women he employed - good pay, utter discretion, dire consequences if there was a child. For whatever reason, if he did whore, secrecy was clearly very important to him, so...

What is more surprising is how Lord Tytos didn't have any aknowledged bastards with one of his mistresses - he was exactly the kind of man who'd take good care of his natural children and he had 5 kids with his wife, so his fertility was proven.

And, of course, there is also Edmure Tully, who, while not an evil man, had been whoring and wenching for a dozen or so years, fathered a child on his Frey wife on the first try, yet has no aknowledged bastards. I am sure that he must have some natural children, though.

 

On 8.4.2016 at 1:34 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Arranging a marriage for Joy to the heir of the Crag is a pretty great move for a bastard. It does more for Joy than it does for House Lannister. And the fact that while Gerion left his young bastard to fend for herself it was Tywin, as the patriarch of the family, who has taken care for her shows that bastards are not as big a deal to him as you are suggesting.

 

This was the result of Jaime's misunderstanding though - Tywin told Tyrion in ASoS, when disclosing the price of Robb's death - "cheap by any measure", that Joy was betrothed to a natural son of Walder Frey as small part of that.

Which, BTW, doesn't make a lot of sense in ASoIAF - you'd think that anknowledged bastard daughters of high nobility, provided with good dowries, would be routinely married to lesser nobility/knightly class and/or even to lesser branches of the same family, if it is large enough. What's the point of marrying one bastard to another? But that's not what we are generally seeing - the mix-up with with the Westerlings and whatever plans Littlefinger may have for "Alayne"  excepted.

 

On 8.4.2016 at 1:34 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Many Lords acknowledge their bastards, there is nothing shocking about that. It seems though they foster them elsewhere rather than bring them up at their own House.

 

It is rare for lords who have legitimate children and/or are currently married. Most examples are like Oberyn, Garth Tyrell, Red Ronnet Connington, etc. Joy Hill also fits in there, since Gerion was single. Tywin's other brother Ser Tygett had been sleeping around as well, but no bastards of his have been aknowledged, for instance - of course he had a wife and a son.

 

On 8.4.2016 at 5:09 AM, 239JMFL34109 said:

Where do we see he didn't know of it? also Varys implies that a previous hand made use of the tunnel to bring whores into the tower of the hand.

 

Nope, the tunnel to Chataya's is nowhere near the Tower of the Hand! It goes from the whorehouse to some stable in the city. The tunnels in and around the Tower of the Hand which are part of the tunnel system in the Red Keep, were built by Visenya and Maegor, with the aim of spying on their courtiers. 

Anyway, I would find it simplistic if the tunnel to Chataya's was built by Tywin for his own use.  IMHO, if it was relatively recently constructed and if it always led to the whorehouse, Jon Arryn is also a good candidate for the builder. He didn't really like his wife and given their procreative difficulties wouldn't have risked sleeping with her during her many doomed pregnancies. He also raised Robert and didn't try to curb his philandering ways. Just because he was a "good guy" doesn't mean that he couldn't have been secretly promiscous. It is not the exclusive province of evil people.

 

On 8.4.2016 at 5:09 AM, 239JMFL34109 said:

We don't know of them having any bastards and other people having bastards doesn't prove anything but i got a feeling that tywin was very much like tyrion and cersei in that he has a problem with addictions with sex, booze, and power. 

Not booze, surely - we didn't ever see him being anything other than moderate with it, and he was in too great a shape at his age for secret alcoholism to be feasible either. And I have my doubts about sex, but there is at least some evidence for it.

[norwaywolf123]

5 hours ago, Maia said:

Didn't she have silvery hair or some such? I was thinking that she may have been Aerys's, myself. When did he swear off his philandering ways, again? IIRC, around the birth of Viserys, so she could be young and attractive enough still.

There are two prostitutes at chatayas that it is speculated are tywins bastards. One of them is named Dancy.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dancy

and the other is.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Marei

http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/102520914486/secret-bastards

5 hours ago, Maia said:

And, of course, there is also Edmure Tully, who, while not an evil man, had been whoring and wenching for a dozen or so years, fathered a child on his Frey wife on the first try, yet has no aknowledged bastards. I am sure that he must have some natural children, though.

I think catelyn said that she belive Edmure has fathered many bastards.

[Apoplexy]

I think it's more than likely Tywin has bastards. I'm interested in knowing why he dislikes whores. Is it just plain hypocrisy or something else.

[Bernie Mac]

18 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it's more than likely Tywin has bastards. I'm interested in knowing why he dislikes whores. Is it just plain hypocrisy or something else.

Why do you think he dislikes whores? 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

He is a bastard . Tyrion . All dwarves are bastards to their fathers .

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why do you think he dislikes whores? 

Tywin shamed and humiliated his father's mistress, instructed Tyrion to not bring Shae to kingslanding and was reportedly devoted to Joanna. While this doesn't explicitly say he disliked whores, he wouldn't want to associate with them, to say the least. But he wasn't above sleeping with Shae, which makes his behavior seem strange to me.

While I do not believe any of Tywin's children are Aerys', I think there's more to his marriage than meets the eye. Was he just bothered about the Lannister reputation, or did something else happen during his early years/marriage for him to be secretive about his hiring of prostitutes.

[300 H&H Magnum]

They may indeed be Tywin's bastards but paternity is next to impossible to prove.  That's why you don't get too many bastards running to their fathers asking for money.  It can't be proven who sired them.  OTOH, there are many fathers out there unknowingly raising children who are, in fact, not actuality theirs.  It bites both ways. 

[Bob Sacamano]

When Jaime treats with Lord Blackwood in ADWD, they're talking about Lord Bracken's supposed bastard.  During convo Blackwood doubts that Bracken is the father.

"Harry was a bastard, true enough, but whether Jonos sired him is a thornier question. A fair-haired boy he was, and comely.  Jonos is neither" Jaime I- ADWD.

For some reason the first time I read this, I thought Blackwood was implying it was Tywins bastard.  Alas, there is no other evidence

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Tywin shamed and humiliated his father's mistress,

Yup. Though she was not a whore, simply a paramour who ruled in his father's place and overstepped her place in society. Kevan and Genna seem pretty happy about what happened to her so I can't really put this down to Tywin's 'hatred' of whores. One of the reasons Tytos reign was so bad was him allowing his paramour to rule. 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

 

instructed Tyrion to not bring Shae to kingslanding

Yup as he knows his son. Tyrion decided to rebel agaisnt his father, took this woman he barely knew to Kings Landing and because he fell for her he was compromised and blackmailed by commoners and Cersei with this information and was willing to hurt his own family for her safety. 

Tywin is not bothered that there are whores, after all he is not the Lord who tried to outlaw them, there are whores in his war camp and the both the cities he has ruled. He sees them for what they are, a service much like a chef, a guard or blacksmith. Tyrion sees them as someone to fall in love with and make his position weaker. 

Tyrion's feelings towards the women he pays to spend time with is a weakness. Tywin sees the problem with Tyrion, not the whores. 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

 

and was reportedly devoted to Joanna.

They were reportedly happy together. We know nothing of what they got up to in private, just that if Tywin did cheat he was very discreet about it. Given that he was often hundreds of miles away the likelihood is that he did have some dalliances with whores. 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

 

While this doesn't explicitly say he disliked whores, he wouldn't want to associate with them, to say the least. But he wasn't above sleeping with Shae, which makes his behavior seem strange to me.

He was extremely discreet about it. I'd say this suggests that rather than Tywin only getting to have sex a quarter of a century after Joanna's death he instead has been discreet in his behaviour. 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

While I do not believe any of Tywin's children are Aerys', I think there's more to his marriage than meets the eye. Was he just bothered about the Lannister reputation, or did something else happen during his early years/marriage for him to be secretive about his hiring of prostitutes.

Why would he not be discreet about it? Most people would be. I'm not really seeing anything odd with that behaviour. Robert and Tyrion are looked down because of this, Edmure, a single man, is mocked for it while Jaime clearly does not respect either Ryman Frey or Jonas Bracken when he talks to them in the company of their whores. 

[norwaywolf123]

On 6.8.2017 at 11:53 PM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

They may indeed be Tywin's bastards but paternity is next to impossible to prove.  That's why you don't get too many bastards running to their fathers asking for money.  It can't be proven who sired them.  OTOH, there are many fathers out there unknowingly raising children who are, in fact, not actuality theirs.  It bites both ways. 

Women are the gatekeepers of reproduction. Today men can take DNA tests to prove or disprove paternity. In ASOIAF all they have to go on is looks, dates and people(witnesses).

On 7.8.2017 at 0:35 AM, Bob Sacamano said:

When Jaime treats with Lord Blackwood in ADWD, they're talking about Lord Bracken's supposed bastard.  During convo Blackwood doubts that Bracken is the father.

"Harry was a bastard, true enough, but whether Jonos sired him is a thornier question. A fair-haired boy he was, and comely.  Jonos is neither" Jaime I- ADWD.

For some reason the first time I read this, I thought Blackwood was implying it was Tywins bastard.  Alas, there is no other evidence

Is there more text to back up the Harry Rivers(bracken) is tywins bastard?