It really sucks to be Stannis

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Stannis rewarding Davos is no different than Joffrey rewarding Janos Slynt, it's not a gamechanger, at all, and doesn't detract from the fact that despite having plenty of lords behind him after Renly's murder, he decided to give most vacant important positions of power to his wife's family.

Letting Robert behind to die, first and foremost.

He doesn't seem to be too happy to be reminded that he betrayed Aerys prior to that as well.

Publicly humiliating his father figure, the man who raised him is another one.

He's rather reluctant to talk about the murder of his other brother either.,

Not punishing Selyse after Mel and her decide to fry Sunglass in Stannis's absence.

Yes, like that. Except that the Westerosi really did oust the Targaryens while Stannis's grievances and ingratitude are imaginary and directed towards his generous brother.

Death of the author, mate. If the character isn't written as just and doesn't act justly, then you won't see me call him "Just".

It's different, actually. Slynt was never his trusted advisor, he was in a lower position and Joff didn't lift a finger when he was sent to the Wall. But I guess that part escaped you. 

Why shouldn't he give important positions to his wife's family? Since you said it wasn't meritocratic, tell me which lord deserved the honors more. The Florents bend the knee first. 

He didn't, first and foremost. 

Yes, because he acknowledges that the rebellion against Aerys could be seen as treasonous. He's very self aware here. Thank you for proving my point. 

He didn't humilate him, his wife did it and he stepped in when it was too much. He also wanted him to live his last days peacefully (which is why he didn't wake him), considers his advice and honors him years after his death, which we see in the wow preview chapter. So the relationship between him and Cressen is more complicated than you make it seem when you refer to the lowest moment of it. 

Reluctant? He talked about it to Davos, but I didn't recall him ordering the murder. Care to quote?

Sunglass was killed for treason. 

They aren't imaginery, Dragonstone is a shitty castle compared to Storm's End. 

Strangely most readers think he is just, how do you think he isn't written as just?

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, you guys have to just ask yourself what Stannis himself would expect from Mel, Davos, Axell, Cressen, Pylos, or any guy in his service if they had reason to assume that Selyse was indeed fucking Patches and that Shireen was indeed his seed rather than Stannis'

Treason is a duty for a hand now?

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Treason is a duty for a hand now?

I beg your pardon? If Davos or anyone stumbled upon Selyse fucking Patches he would have to report this to Stannis. It is not treason if you are right. Whether you are right is for the king to decide, though.

[Sullen]

25 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It's different, actually. Slynt was never his trusted advisor, he was in a lower position and Joff didn't lift a finger when he was sent to the Wall. But I guess that part escaped you. 

Slynt was not a trusted advisor, but was rewarded with a great lordship and a place on the Small Council for his great service, it's pretty much the same as with Davos. Joffrey not protecting Slynt once Tyrion sends him to the Wall doesn't mean anything either, as far as he knows, Tyrion had good cause to have him exiled, as Stannis had good cause to imprison Davos in ASoS.

28 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Why shouldn't he give important positions to his wife's family? Since you said it wasn't meritocratic, tell me which lord deserved the honors more. The Florents bend the knee first. 

Just about anyone would have done a better job at admiral than Imry Florent, and any trusted man could have done a better job at Castelan than Axell.

Alester as Hand wasn't a bad choice though.

30 minutes ago, John Doe said:

He didn't, first and foremost. 

So you're one of those "He might not have anything to show for it and might not mention it, ever, but he was totally planning something to help Robert!" types?

He fucked off to Dragonstone and didn't do anything after while he was aware King's Landing was dangerous: he let his brother and King die.

32 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Yes, because he acknowledges that the rebellion against Aerys could be seen as treasonous. He's very self aware here. Thank you for proving my point. 

But, he refuses to talk about it, or to admonish himself for it. And is even pissed off when Davos brings it up, making him quite the hypocrite.

33 minutes ago, John Doe said:

He didn't humilate him, his wife did it and he stepped in when it was too much. He also wanted him to live his last days peacefully (which is why he didn't wake him), considers his advice and honors him years after his death, which we see in the wow preview chapter. So the relationship between him and Cressen is more complicated than you make it seem when you refer to the lowest moment of it. 

Stop whitewashing him, he forced him to wear the fool's crown and dismissed everything he said as the ramblings of an old fool. That's humiliation.

35 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Reluctant? He talked about it to Davos, but I didn't recall him ordering the murder. Care to quote?

He talked about it to Davos after the deed. Unless you really think he was willing to test his measly 5k against Renly's cavalry (which would make him suicidal), than he knew what going to happen. The fact that he orders the same thing to happen to Penrose only further cements that.

36 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Sunglass was killed for treason. 

Sunglass was imprisoned for treason and had not been judged yet, he was burned by Selyse and Melissandre because they wanted a sacrifice.

37 minutes ago, John Doe said:

They aren't imaginery, Dragonstone is a shitty castle compared to Storm's End. 

They are imaginary. Dragonstone is more than he should have ever hoped for and more suited to him anyhow.

38 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Strangely most readers think he is just, how do you think he isn't written as just?

Most readers also think that the Starks never did anything wrong and that Tyrion is a hero worth rooting for, appealing to popular opinion won't work, mate.

[typhoid fever]

41 minutes ago, John Doe said:

He didn't, first and foremost. 

 

He didnt??? Then why did he left KL ? Maybe because he thought sweet little Cersei wouldnt do anything to keep her postition and protect her children ?

 

43 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Yes, because he acknowledges that the rebellion against Aerys could be seen as treasonous. He's very self aware here. Thank you for proving my point. 

 

You know that Aerys was mad right??? And through this discussion it is always mentioned  how just Stannis is . Would a man that has such a superior sense of justice, as you claim that Stannis has, a man who is so uncorrupt and always does the right thing   be able to stand aside and see the whole fucking kingdom fall down and a thousands of people beeing tortured and killed for no obvious reason in order for him to keep his fucking honor and to have a clear consciense??? 

 

53 minutes ago, John Doe said:

He didn't humilate him, his wife did it and he stepped in when it was too much. He also wanted him to live his last days peacefully (which is why he didn't wake him), considers his advice and honors him years after his death, which we see in the wow preview chapter. So the relationship between him and Cressen is more complicated than you make it seem when you refer to the lowest moment of it. 

 

Oww he didnt?Have you read the chapter? Because it seemed like that. Allowing Mel to  treat the man that loved him like a father,the man that was always by his side and the man was a maester to be laughted at by everyone?? And for what ? Cressen didnt even provoked her.  Dont you consider that a humiliation? Because if thats the case ,although i doubt it, maybe you have  never been humiliated in your life. It was cruel ,disrespectful and unhonorable that he allowed that to happen in a room full of people to the man that was his counselor  and served him all his life .As for the fact that he didnt want to wake him , this was just a sad excuse. Cressen had made it quite clear to him that he just wanted to be involved and stand by him. If Stannis cared he would just give him a honorary position. 

 

[the Eternal Champion]

On 4/21/2016 at 10:41 PM, Hugorfonics said:

On 4/21/2016 at 10:14 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 Clearly the Rincewind of Westeros.

Lol does that make Davos the luggage?

love it.wonder what the colour of magic is in westeros

 

[the trees have eyes]

13 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

I would add to this that Jon Arryn had the book of lineages which Stannis didn't. So Jon Arryn with better evidence still didn't tell Robert. Neither did Ned Stark plan to (who had that book as well), until he had a confession from Cersei to confirm it.

Edit: Heck. Robert managed to piss Ned off in such a short time that he actually planned to abandon Robert in Kingslanding, despite being told by Varys of an attempt to kill Robert through the tournament melee. It isn't until Littlefinger took him to a brothel and he broke his leg that he remained.

Yet Stannis is terrible for thinking Robert wouldn't believe him and leaving.

Stannis took his supicions to Jon Arryn and the two of them worked together closely, including visting the brothel to see Barra together.  We don't know if Stannis is in the dark about the book though it's reasonable to assume that as Pycelle lent it to Jon Stannis may not have seen it.

Ned actually didn't really understand what was going on until Sansa's "he's nothing like that old drunken king" line brought things into focus.  How he would have approached Robert is up in the air given we have their row, Ned's injury followed by Robert going hunting.  But when Ned pieces it together he calls Cersei to the Godswood to tell her to get herself and the children out of the reach of Robert's wrath which implies to me that he didn't need her confirnmation to act and that he would as soon as Robert was back in town.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@GallowsKnight

Was Stannis sent on some sort of official mission to Dragonstone? Was he doing the king's business there like he was when he went to the Sisters? No. Don't bring up stuff like that.

Whatever Stannis could have predicted doesn't matter. The issue is that Stannis had a duty to go to his brother and king with what he had learned or believed he had learned for the very sake of the argument.

Procrastinating this wasn't an option he legally had. He was bound to tell him the truth regardless whether Robert would believe him or not. And he certainly could have found a way to do it without getting himself in mortal danger.

Jon Arryn and Stannis were both trying to do something back before Jon's death. But they didn't had any evidence yet, or did not yet feel comfortable enough to say anything. However, Jon Arryn was really about to do it when he died, it seems. Stannis never got any better evidence than he and Jon Arryn had gathered up to that point yet it was enough for him to proclaim Cersei's children bastards and claim the throne for himself.

If it is enough for that it should have been enough to tell Robert. Along with his suspicion that Jon Arryn had been murdered by Cersei because of that whole thing. I mean, Stannis could have used that as evidence, too.

Bolded is the big one for me.  People can't claim Stannis didn't have enough evidence to act while Robert was alive and yet expect the whole kingdom to bend their knees and bow down before Stannis on the back of the same evidence after Robert's death.  And nor can Stannis.

If Stannis is adamant that it is his duty to be king - "wanting does not come into it" - and that the Lords who don't declare for him are traitors to their duty, how can he be so cavalier about his own duty to his king and brother Robert?  It just doesn't look good.

7 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

1. People wonder what he is doing but no one ever accuses him of desertion in aGoT, not once. Which could suggests he had a degree of freedom. Do we know if Robert ordered Stannis to act on the sisters for certain? No. Then don't make assumptions.

 

2. Just like Jon Arryn had a duty. Just like Ned did...

 

3. Just like...wait those guys. 

 

4. And keep Robert out of mortal danger?

 

5. Or he:

a. realised he was poisoned and tried to tell Robert too late or

b. he was a delirious dying man.

 

6. There is a difference between having enough evidence that you believe sufficiently and knowing if Robert will believe you.

 

7. It's enough that Ned with far more evidence never tells Robert? Lets recount that:

a. The book of lineages which Stannis didn't have

b. The Catspaw and Valyrian dagger

c. Lysa Arryn's letter of suspicion of poisoning

d. Varys' report that the Lannisters were going to kill Robert in the melee (likely false but still).

 

8. Along with the fact an old man died. An old man died. A old man who died from what the Maesters think is just a natural infection.That's great evidence right there.

 

Edit: I think I'm going to tap out of this thread. Feel free to reply and have the last word. I promised my wife when I came back here I'd only get involved in constructive threads, because in threads like this, no information is shared, no one is changing their minds, learning or theorizing. We're all set in stone. The same argument around and around. Pro-Stannis/Anti-Stannis and never the two shall meet.

We see Jon Arryn on his deathbed, deleriously muttering "the seed is strong" and we see Ned's preparations to crown Stannis and allow Cersei and her children to flee - only Robert's mortal wounding preventing Ned from telling him the truth as an act of kindness.  Whatever Stannis may or may not have intended what he actually did was flee to Dragonstone and manitain radio silence.  It's not a good comparison.

5 hours ago, John Doe said:

 

Sure, like with Davos. Certainly Stannis is a great example of nepotism over meritocracy in the books. 

Of course you don't mentions these wrongdoings he doesn't acknowledge. 

Miscarriage of justice? What do you mean?

Like Dany whines that her family abused the kingdom and lost the throne? 

Martin himself stated Stannis was a just man, most fans agree with that. But since you also ignored book quotes in the past to make a point against Stannis (like when we were discussing Renly's claim to the throne), I doubt you  can be taken seriously in discussions involving Stannis. 

Davos is often trotted out as proof that Stannis is a merotocrat in an age of hierarchy.  Nothing is further from the truth.  Davos's utility to Stannis is his loyalty and it says a lot about Stannis that the one man he can rely on, somewhat bizarrely, is a smuggler who he maimed for saving his bacon.  I see no schools on Dragonstone for the promotion of gifted children from outside the elite, just lots of Stannis's Florent in-laws in positions of power and one slightly unbelieveable but likeable smuggler who is the closest thing to a real friend he's ever had.  Now that may be harsh but its also fair.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, the relationship between Stannis and Davos is pretty twisted. Something is wrong with you if like a man who has cut of your fingertips. Yeah, it was 'justice' in a sense but one would expect that you pardon a guy who has saved your ass from starvation or defeat.

 Davos seems to be effectively enthralled by Stannis, and Stannis keeps him around because he knows that man is absolutely devoted to him. But he can stand up to Stannis only on Stannis' terms - those are mostly good terms, I admit, because Stannis is overall a reasonable and practical man if he wants to be reasonable. If you tell him the truth then you can win his respect. But Stannis is also fickle. If you lose his favor he'll no longer listen to you, not receive you, not talk to you, and you end up in a dungeon or on a pyre. That's what happened to Cressen and Alester, not to mention all the other guys he had arrested for defending their gods.

Cressen gave Stannis sound advice, too, after all, but Stannis didn't listen to him. And there might come a time when Stannis decides that he has heard enough of this Davos Seaworth. In fact, there might even come a time Stannis has heard enough of Melisandre.

But Davos (and Mel) are exceptions. Axell, Alester, Cressen, Selyse, Pylos, his knights, etc. are all treated much differently. We see how he talks to 'normal people' in private finally in Theon 1. Stannis is brisk and unfriendly and quickly annoyed.

[Boarsbane]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, the relationship between Stannis and Davos is pretty twisted. Something is wrong with you if like a man who has cut of your fingertips. Yeah, it was 'justice' in a sense but one would expect that you pardon a guy who has saved your ass from starvation or defeat.

 Davos seems to be effectively enthralled by Stannis, and Stannis keeps him around because he knows that man is absolutely devoted to him. But he can stand up to Stannis only on Stannis' terms - those are mostly good terms, I admit, because Stannis is overall a reasonable and practical man if he wants to be reasonable. If you tell him the truth then you can win his respect. But Stannis is also fickle. If you lose his favor he'll no longer listen to you, not receive you, not talk to you, and you end up in a dungeon or on a pyre. That's what happened to Cressen and Alester, not to mention all the other guys he had arrested for defending their gods.

Cressen gave Stannis sound advice, too, after all, but Stannis didn't listen to him. And there might come a time when Stannis decides that he has heard enough of this Davos Seaworth. In fact, there might even come a time Stannis has heard enough of Melisandre.

But Davos (and Mel) are exceptions. Axell, Alester, Cressen, Selyse, Pylos, his knights, etc. are all treated much differently. We see how he talks to 'normal people' in private finally in Theon 1. Stannis is brisk and unfriendly and quickly annoyed.

What's even more screwed up is when he kills Renly he does absolutely nothing to the Lord's or knights who switched sides, so basically he maimed the man who saved his life because he could get away with it with no repercussions as opposed to the lords who declared for Renly who he would risk losing men if he punished the lord. Justice will always take a back seat to the interests of Stannis Baratheon.

[HexMachina]

On 8 June 2016 at 10:04 AM, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

What an irony would be if Robert had suspicions (90% chance he didn't cause he could not care 2 craps) and was just waiting for his close kin ("father"; "brother";or brother) to give him something... nothing but wind in the end...

And no, he wouldn't kill the kids... Cersei and Jaime, well...

What makes you think he wouldn't kill the kids? After all, "I see only dragon lion-spawn"

[Valens]

18 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

This is not sensible. Using Loras to make an alliance is exactly the same as say the Stark's alliance through Catelyn Tully and Eddard Stark, or Jon Arryn's similar plan. Marriage alliances are common. Just because Renly was gay, doesn't make his skills making alliances any worse. Being charming and having people like you is a big deal, but I would argue that I think Renly did have a lot of skills with making alliances and governing well. I see no reason to see Renly as anything less than Robert. Yes, he had no great military victories, but perhaps that is because his brother murdered him with sorcery. I think it is very possible that Renly would have taken King's Landing, in fact...probable. 

. 

Hey, I didn't write that! Lol...

[John Doe]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I beg your pardon? If Davos or anyone stumbled upon Selyse fucking Patches he would have to report this to Stannis. It is not treason if you are right. Whether you are right is for the king to decide, though.

Sorry, I quoted the wrong part. I meant to refer to the burning of Florent, of course telling Robert wouldn't be treason. 

18 hours ago, Sullen said:

Slynt was not a trusted advisor, but was rewarded with a great lordship and a place on the Small Council for his great service, it's pretty much the same as with Davos. Joffrey not protecting Slynt once Tyrion sends him to the Wall doesn't mean anything either, as far as he knows, Tyrion had good cause to have him exiled, as Stannis had good cause to imprison Davos in ASoS.

Just about anyone would have done a better job at admiral than Imry Florent, and any trusted man could have done a better job at Castelan than Axell.

Alester as Hand wasn't a bad choice though.

So you're one of those "He might not have anything to show for it and might not mention it, ever, but he was totally planning something to help Robert!" types?

He fucked off to Dragonstone and didn't do anything after while he was aware King's Landing was dangerous: he let his brother and King die.

But, he refuses to talk about it, or to admonish himself for it. And is even pissed off when Davos brings it up, making him quite the hypocrite.

Stop whitewashing him, he forced him to wear the fool's crown and dismissed everything he said as the ramblings of an old fool. That's humiliation.

He talked about it to Davos after the deed. Unless you really think he was willing to test his measly 5k against Renly's cavalry (which would make him suicidal), than he knew what going to happen. The fact that he orders the same thing to happen to Penrose only further cements that.

Sunglass was imprisoned for treason and had not been judged yet, he was burned by Selyse and Melissandre because they wanted a sacrifice.

They are imaginary. Dragonstone is more than he should have ever hoped for and more suited to him anyhow.

Most readers also think that the Starks never did anything wrong and that Tyrion is a hero worth rooting for, appealing to popular opinion won't work, mate.

Joff didn't care for Slynt, "I have friends at court!" is quite obviously an empty phrase. Had Tywin wanted to get rid of Slynt Joff wouldn't have lifted a finger to protect him, that's not exactly the "then we will make new lords" attitude Stannis has. 

Tell me who would have been better than Axell. Don't forget the Florents don't only have family ties to Stannis like you make it out to be, they also provide the bulk of Stannis forces.  Of course Davos might have been better than Imry, but Davos was never teached how to lead men in a war. And as far as I remember the lords agreed with Imry on his plan, so you'll have to provide evidence for someone else being a better admiral than Imry too, from Stannis point of view. Don't forget that Imry only lost due to the wildfire and nobody had any idea of that plan. Now that I think of it, promoting the bastard Rolland Storm is also a very meritocratic move from Stannis. Another point in his favor. 

Are you one of those "He might not have anything to show for it and might not mention it, ever, but he was totally planning to betray Robert!" types? Unless you want to suggest Stannis, one of the better commanders in the series, planned to take the throne with just 3000-5000 soldiers behind his back, and knew Robert would die soon, the likely explanation for his gathering of troops is that he wanted to use them to help Robert in some way. 

He prolonged his brothers and kings life. 

So saying the relationship between Stannis and Cressen is more complicated than you make it seem by just presenting a part of it is whitewashing now?

Maybe he trusted Mel that Renly would die, but not why exactly. Unless you want to suggest that Stannis lied to Davos and pretended to be shocked, which completely goes against his established character (since he's blunt and concerned with justice), you'll have to agree he didn't order the murder. 

Still, executing a traitor isn't abuse of justice, so I don't see why you think Stannis should have punished Selyse. 

They aren't. 

I'm not sure if most readers think those things. But you can't accuse the author of writing the character as unjust when most people agree he was just. Your opinion might differ, but that's not the fault of the author. 

18 hours ago, typhoid fever said:

He didnt??? Then why did he left KL ? Maybe because he thought sweet little Cersei wouldnt do anything to keep her postition and protect her children 

To gather swords and wait for the right time to act. And his decision to leave KL actually prolonged Robert's life. It's a grey area, but it isn't just clear-cut treason if you try to help your king in the way that most likely ensures sucess. 

17 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Davos is often trotted out as proof that Stannis is a merotocrat in an age of hierarchy.  Nothing is further from the truth.  Davos's utility to Stannis is his loyalty and it says a lot about Stannis that the one man he can rely on, somewhat bizarrely, is a smuggler who he maimed for saving his bacon.  I see no schools on Dragonstone for the promotion of gifted children from outside the elite, just lots of Stannis's Florent in-laws in positions of power and one slightly unbelieveable but likeable smuggler who is the closest thing to a real friend he's ever had.  Now that may be harsh but its also fair.

So say promting Davos solely for his worth isn't a meritocratic move? Then you should read again what that word means. 

18 hours ago, typhoid fever said:

You know that Aerys was mad right??? And through this discussion it is always mentioned  how just Stannis is . Would a man that has such a superior sense of justice, as you claim that Stannis has, a man who is so uncorrupt and always does the right thing   be able to stand aside and see the whole fucking kingdom fall down and a thousands of people beeing tortured and killed for no obvious reason in order for him to keep his fucking honor and to have a clear consciense??? 

What exactly is your point here?

[Valens]

Well, I'm glad my thread broke the records pretty much, but lets not get into any prolonged wars of words now.

[typhoid fever]

51 minutes ago, John Doe said:

To gather swords and wait for the right time to act. And his decision to leave KL actually prolonged Robert's life. It's a grey area, but it isn't just clear-cut treason if you try to help your king in the way that most likely ensures sucess. 

18 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Thats one way to see things but its is not necessarily the right one . Its on everyones point of view.My opinion is that he got scared that he would get killed by the Lannisters, he got jealous about the fact that Robert descided to make Ned Hand and went off to hide at Dragonstone. 

 

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

What exactly is your point here?

My point here is that he only cares abou himself. He is "self aware" of the Aerys thing because all he ever cared for is his pride and honor . Nobody in his right mind would blaim themselves for standing up to Aerys.It was the right thing to do . The fact that he still  feels guilty about that means that the only thing that he thinks  about is his precious pride, honor and "iron sense of justice".

 

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

4 hours ago, Valens said:

Hey, I didn't write that! Lol...

I just pushed the quote button, are you sure?

[Sullen]

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Joff didn't care for Slynt, "I have friends at court!" is quite obviously an empty phrase. Had Tywin wanted to get rid of Slynt Joff wouldn't have lifted a finger to protect him, that's not exactly the "then we will make new lords" attitude Stannis has. 

And if Stannis's "new lords" potentially worked against him, I have no doubt he would do the same thing. Janos was promoted for his merit, but was also sent away for a perfectly fine reason. Meritocracy at work.

While we are at Joff, we also have to praise his "iron sense of justice" when it comes to Eddard. Instead of forgiving him and letting him take the black, the easy pragmatic solution, he punished him as a traitor of that calibre ought to be punished. I suppose he takes his "iron sense of justice" from his uncle.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Tell me who would have been better than Axell. Don't forget the Florents don't only have family ties to Stannis like you make it out to be, they also provide the bulk of Stannis forces.  Of course Davos might have been better than Imry, but Davos was never teached how to lead men in a war. And as far as I remember the lords agreed with Imry on his plan, so you'll have to provide evidence for someone else being a better admiral than Imry too, from Stannis point of view. Don't forget that Imry only lost due to the wildfire and nobody had any idea of that plan. Now that I think of it, promoting the bastard Rolland Storm is also a very meritocratic move from Stannis. Another point in his favor. 

Axell: Massey? Suggs? Horpe? Anyone would doesn't plan on murdering Stannis's closest adviser and most loyal servant?

Imry: Any of the lords of the Narrow Sea, really. Imry lost because he charged in blind, sending a scouting vessel first would have potentially saved them from a disaster.

Roland Storm: Bastard of a prestigious house, the function of castellan is pretty much an appropriate one for his rank, nothing incredible here. Aurane Waters being put on the Small Council is considerably more impressive, if you want to stay on the topic of bastards and meritocracy.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Are you one of those "He might not have anything to show for it and might not mention it, ever, but he was totally planning to betray Robert!" types? Unless you want to suggest Stannis, one of the better commanders in the series, planned to take the throne with just 3000-5000 soldiers behind his back, and knew Robert would die soon, the likely explanation for his gathering of troops is that he wanted to use them to help Robert in some way. 

Yes, he started to gather his troops because he knew Robert would die soon, he has a future telling witch whispering in his ear that he would be King, after all. He knew Robert would die, and started his campaign accordingly.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

He prolonged his brothers and kings life. 

He didn't.

As soon as Stannis leaves, he becomes a sword of Damocles above Cersei's head, and she needs to off Robert as soon as possible, we hear it from freaking Cersei herself.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

So saying the relationship between Stannis and Cressen is more complicated than you make it seem by just presenting a part of it is whitewashing now?

Saying that Stannis never humiliated Cressen and secretly tried to save his life is whitewashing him, yes, no doubt about that.

I also have a theory about how Jaime was warged by Bloodraven during every single of his bad acts/thoughts, if you are interested.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Maybe he trusted Mel that Renly would die, but not why exactly. Unless you want to suggest that Stannis lied to Davos and pretended to be shocked, which completely goes against his established character (since he's blunt and concerned with justice), you'll have to agree he didn't order the murder. 

I suggest Stannis himself was in disbelief over what had just transpired, that he's more vulnerable that he pretends to be, and that he tries to convince both himself and Davos that he had nothing to do with that.

Stannis is human, and just committed one of the greatest crimes known to man, that he would be in shock and denial is nothing surprising.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

Still, executing a traitor isn't abuse of justice, so I don't see why you think Stannis should have punished Selyse. 

It is when you do not have the authority to do it, or do it for a completely different reason than to dispense justice.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

They aren't. 

Of course they are. He was grossly overly rewarded for his service and has the gall to see a conspiracy about his brother not caring about him and being unjust. He's whiny, jealous, and entitled as fuck.

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

I'm not sure if most readers think those things. But you can't accuse the author of writing the character as unjust when most people agree he was just. Your opinion might differ, but that's not the fault of the author. 

How about Dany then, the author says she's a hero, and most readers see her as morally flawless.

I suppose it MUST be true then.

[the trees have eyes]

5 hours ago, John Doe said:

< snip >

Tell me who would have been better than Axell. Don't forget the Florents don't only have family ties to Stannis like you make it out to be, they also provide the bulk of Stannis forces.  Of course Davos might have been better than Imry, but Davos was never teached how to lead men in a war. And as far as I remember the lords agreed with Imry on his plan, so you'll have to provide evidence for someone else being a better admiral than Imry too, from Stannis point of view. Don't forget that Imry only lost due to the wildfire and nobody had any idea of that plan. Now that I think of it, promoting the bastard Rolland Storm is also a very meritocratic move from Stannis. Another point in his favor. 

< snip >

He prolonged his brothers and kings life. 

< snip >

To gather swords and wait for the right time to act. And his decision to leave KL actually prolonged Robert's life. It's a grey area, but it isn't just clear-cut treason if you try to help your king in the way that most likely ensures sucess. 

So say promting Davos solely for his worth isn't a meritocratic move? Then you should read again what that word means.

Davos has no qualifications to be admiral or to lead a fleet in battle so let's assume that although Imry was a poor choice he might at least have been trained in how to lead a fleet.  Davos by contrast knows how to captain his one ship but his experience is almost universally in running from warships and engaging in combat only as an absolute last resort.

Rolland Storm is a Lord's bastard, the son of Bryen Caron, Lord of Nightsong.  There is a world of difference between appointing a nobleman's bastard to a position of influence than a common born bastard due to merit.  Stannis is not some meritocratic visionary ahead of his time!  We see Roose taking in Ramsey even before Domeric's death, Walder Rivers or "Bastard Walder" is a key part of Walder Frey's plans, we see Harrys Hornwood's son Larence Snow being raised by the Glovers and considered for elevation to the Hornwood title, we see Edric Storm and the Sand Snakes enjoying positions of influence and prestige.  Stannis is no different here to any other Lord.

If you think the decision to leave KL prolonged Robert's life then I'll have some of what you are smoking.  The Lannisters took his absence as an indication he knew or suspeted something and that they needed to take Robert out sooner rather than later (something Varys claims to try to prevent).  The obvious way to prolong Robert's life is to 1) stay there to protect him and 2) let him know of the danger.  It's a nonsense to say that Stannis fleeing and keeping silent was some brilliant but desperate stratagem to keep Robert alive...

He promotes Davos to positions he neither wants nor is at all suited to: Lord of the Rainwood, Admiral of the Narrow Sea and Hand of the King.  Davos quite rightly points out that he has no skills, training, experience or particular interest in any of these things but Stannis gives them to him because Davos is his boy.  It has nothing to do with merit and everything to do with Stannis having no one else he can trust or that he particularly likes. This is the classic definition of nepotism and I'll even give you the definition to help you with it:

Nepotism: "the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. "

It's absolutely textbook nepotism to pick someone with no qualifications because you favour them.  Meritocratic appointment my ass.

43 minutes ago, Sullen said:

And if Stannis's "new lords" potentially worked against him, I have no doubt he would do the same thing. Janos was promoted for his merit, but was also sent away for a perfectly fine reason. Meritocracy at work.

While we are at Joff, we also have to praise his "iron sense of justice" when it comes to Eddard. Instead of forgiving him and letting him take the black, the easy pragmatic solution, he punished him as a traitor of that calibre ought to be punished. I suppose he takes his "iron sense of justice" from his uncle.

Axell: Massey? Suggs? Horpe? Anyone would doesn't plan on murdering Stannis's closest adviser and most loyal servant?

Imry: Any of the lords of the Narrow Sea, really. Imry lost because he charged in blind, sending a scouting vessel first would have potentially saved them from a disaster.

Roland Storm: Bastard of a prestigious house, the function of castellan is pretty much an appropriate one for his rank, nothing incredible here. Aurane Waters being put on the Small Council is considerably more impressive, if you want to stay on the topic of bastards and meritocracy.

Yes, he started to gather his troops because he knew Robert would die soon, he has a future telling witch whispering in his ear that he would be King, after all. He knew Robert would die, and started his campaign accordingly.

He didn't.

As soon as Stannis leaves, he becomes a sword of Damocles above Cersei's head, and she needs to off Robert as soon as possible, we hear it from freaking Cersei herself.

Saying that Stannis never humiliated Cressen and secretly tried to save his life is whitewashing him, yes, no doubt about that.

I also have a theory about how Jaime was warged by Bloodraven during every single of his bad acts/thoughts, if you are interested.

I suggest Stannis himself was in disbelief over what had just transpired, that he's more vulnerable that he pretends to be, and that he tries to convince both himself and Davos that he had nothing to do with that.

Stannis is human, and just committed one of the greatest crimes known to man, that he would be in shock and denial is nothing surprising.

It is when you do not have the authority to do it, or do it for a completely different reason than to dispense justice.

Of course they are. He was grossly overly rewarded for his service and has the gall to see a conspiracy about his brother not caring about him and being unjust. He's whiny, jealous, and entitled as fuck.

How about Dany then, the author says she's a hero, and most readers see her as morally flawless.

I suppose it MUST be true then.

Agree with most of this particularly the bolded.

[John Doe]

43 minutes ago, Sullen said:

And if Stannis's "new lords" potentially worked against him, I have no doubt he would do the same thing. Janos was promoted for his merit, but was also sent away for a perfectly fine reason. Meritocracy at work.

While we are at Joff, we also have to praise his "iron sense of justice" when it comes to Eddard. Instead of forgiving him and letting him take the black, the easy pragmatic solution, he punished him as a traitor of that calibre ought to be punished. I suppose he takes his "iron sense of justice" from his uncle.

Axell: Massey? Suggs? Horpe? Anyone would doesn't plan on murdering Stannis's closest adviser and most loyal servant?

Imry: Any of the lords of the Narrow Sea, really. Imry lost because he charged in blind, sending a scouting vessel first would have potentially saved them from a disaster.

Roland Storm: Bastard of a prestigious house, the function of castellan is pretty much an appropriate one for his rank, nothing incredible here. Aurane Waters being put on the Small Council is considerably more impressive, if you want to stay on the topic of bastards and meritocracy.

Yes, he started to gather his troops because he knew Robert would die soon, he has a future telling witch whispering in his ear that he would be King, after all. He knew Robert would die, and started his campaign accordingly.

He didn't.

As soon as Stannis leaves, he becomes a sword of Damocles above Cersei's head, and she needs to off Robert as soon as possible, we hear it from freaking Cersei herself.

Saying that Stannis never humiliated Cressen and secretly tried to save his life is whitewashing him, yes, no doubt about that.

I also have a theory about how Jaime was warged by Bloodraven during every single of his bad acts/thoughts, if you are interested.

I suggest Stannis himself was in disbelief over what had just transpired, that he's more vulnerable that he pretends to be, and that he tries to convince both himself and Davos that he had nothing to do with that.

Stannis is human, and just committed one of the greatest crimes known to man, that he would be in shock and denial is nothing surprising.

It is when you do not have the authority to do it, or do it for a completely different reason than to dispense justice.

Of course they are. He was grossly overly rewarded for his service and has the gall to see a conspiracy about his brother not caring about him and being unjust. He's whiny, jealous, and entitled as fuck.

How about Dany then, the author says she's a hero, and most readers see her as morally flawless.

I suppose it MUST be true then.

When did Janos work against Joff?

Sure, you could say that had it been Joffs idea, but it was Baelishs. 

When did he plan on murdering Davos? I thought he had thrown him in a dungeon, in the name of the king?

What narrow sea lord do you have in mind, in particular? So far you failed to provide evidence of any other lord planning to act differently then Imry did. Unless you can't provide someone who was better suited for the job based on the facts, not speculation, you can't fault Stannis for choosing Imry. Again, as far as we know the lords agreed to Imry's plan. 

Davos is even more impressive then Aurane, so I don't get what you are trying to prove here. That Stannis isn't the only king with meritocratic tendencies? Sure, never argued against it. But you accused him of being especially nepotistic, and I proved you wrong.  Aurane wasn't promoted based on his merit besides, but even if he was, that point would be moot.  

At the earliest he got Melisandre shortly before Robert's death, he didn't have her with him when he retreated to Dragonstone and took the fleet with him in the first place, so you're wrong 

He did, Cersei herself said so. But I already provided the quote in a past discussion with you, I suppose it's a fruitless effort. 

The theory fits your other theories well, so I'm not surprised. 

Are you kidding me? You say he ordered the death of his brother and then was in denial to a point where he said he didn't commit the crime? The same man who eats leather rather than surrendering and watches people burn with his only reaction being a bit of teeth grinding? You'll have to provide evidence for him being so easily shocked so suddenly. 

If it was a different reason, you'll have to provide evidence for it. Besides, a queen can have authority in the king's absence. 

Again your hatred of the character shines through and shows how little objectivity you can bring to the discussion. 

When did he say she was a hero? Also, most readers don't see her as flawless at all. She's actually among the most polarizing characters. 

 

3 hours ago, typhoid fever said:

Thats one way to see things but its is not necessarily the right one . Its on everyones point of view.My opinion is that he got scared that he would get killed by the Lannisters, he got jealous about the fact that Robert descided to make Ned Hand and went off to hide at Dragonstone. 

My point here is that he only cares abou himself. He is "self aware" of the Aerys thing because all he ever cared for is his pride and honor . Nobody in his right mind would blaim themselves for standing up to Aerys.It was the right thing to do . The fact that he still  feels guilty about that means that the only thing that he thinks  about is his precious pride, honor and "iron sense of justice".

 

I agree, it depends on your point of view, and I won't fault you for thinking Stannis wanted Robert to die. But it gets annoying when people present their theory as a fact in a discussion about Stannis character when the evidence to prove it just is not there. 

I guess you could make the same point about Eddard. Sullen said Stannis ignored his own mistakes, my point about him reflecting about Aerys and admitting it could be seen as treasonous despite of it being the right thing to do shows that he can admit his own short commings. He does it constantly in the series. 

 

[John Doe]

24 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Davos has no qualifications to be admiral or to lead a fleet in battle so let's assume that although Imry was a poor choice he might at least have been trained in how to lead a fleet.  Davos by contrast knows how to captain his one ship but his experience is almost universally in running from warships and engaging in combat only as an absolute last resort.

Rolland Storm is a Lord's bastard, the son of Bryen Caron, Lord of Nightsong.  There is a world of difference between appointing a nobleman's bastard to a position of influence than a common born bastard due to merit.  Stannis is not some meritocratic visionary ahead of his time!  We see Roose taking in Ramsey even before Domeric's death, Walder Rivers or "Bastard Walder" is a key part of Walder Frey's plans, we see Harrys Hornwood's son Larence Snow being raised by the Glovers and considered for elevation to the Hornwood title, we see Edric Storm and the Sand Snakes enjoying positions of influence and prestige.  Stannis is no different here to any other Lord.

If you think the decision to leave KL prolonged Robert's life then I'll have some of what you are smoking.  The Lannisters took his absence as an indication he knew or suspeted something and that they needed to take Robert out sooner rather than later (something Varys claims to try to prevent).  The obvious way to prolong Robert's life is to 1) stay there to protect him and 2) let him know of the danger.  It's a nonsense to say that Stannis fleeing and keeping silent was some brilliant but desperate stratagem to keep Robert alive...

He promotes Davos to positions he neither wants nor is at all suited to: Lord of the Rainwood, Admiral of the Narrow Sea and Hand of the King.  Davos quite rightly points out that he has no skills, training, experience or particular interest in any of these things but Stannis gives them to him because Davos is his boy.  It has nothing to do with merit and everything to do with Stannis having no one else he can trust or that he particularly likes. This is the classic definition of nepotism and I'll even give you the definition to help you with it:

Nepotism: "the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. "

It's absolutely textbook nepotism to pick someone with no qualifications because you favour them.  Meritocratic appointment my ass.

Agree with most of this particularly the bolded.

Sorry, but loyalty is a merit too, and it isn't Davos only one. He always speaks the truth to Stannis which played a big part in why he was promoted, I'm surprised how you could miss that. That's the exact opposide of promoting friends and lickspittles to your council. He also is just plain smart, knows to negotiate, understands commoners and offers a different point of view to the other lords. All good reasons for Stannis to promote Davos, all based on his worth, and not on him being a friend. But of course you can accuse every king of promoting friends to important positions, since no king wants to fill his council with enemies. 

Sure, he probably wasn't better suited than Imry, but that Imry wasn't necessarily a bad choice was my point. 

Davos had been Stannis advisor for a few years at the point he made him hand as well as being a lord in his own right, he probably picked up some experience for the job during that period. And he proved himself in every one of these positions, so you can't fault Stannis for promoting him just because he had no experience at first. 

I know it prolonged his life because I got myself some AFFC, you should try it out. 

Quote

 When had a Hand ever brought her anything but grief? Jon Arryn put Robert Baratheon in her bed, and before he died he'd begun sniffing about her and Jaime as well. Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers.

Had Stannis stayed at KL she could have dealt with him easier and we see how Eddards meddling (had Stannis not left it would have been him) forced her to kill him sooner than she anticipated. 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Had Stannis stayed at KL she could have dealt with him easier and we see how Eddards meddling (had Stannis not left it would have been him) forced her to kill him sooner than she anticipated. 

Or Stannis could have killed Cersei, no? I mean, Stannis was hardly defenseless or powerless, he could have stood and fought the evil queen rather than fleeing. 

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, John Doe said:

When did Janos work against Joff?

He took a bribe from Eddard, proof that he was corrupt, and later betrayed him, proof that he was unreliable.

Reward him for stopping the coup, but exile him for taking a bribe/being a liability... Make him a knight for his onions, but cut his fingers off for smuggling.

What an iron sense of justice those kinsmen share!

4 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Sure, you could say that had it been Joffs idea, but it was Baelishs. 

Prove that it was Baelish's. 

It's perfectly in line with Joffrey's character, I don't see why people need to attribute every single event to the machinations of Baelish or Varys. Occam's Razor, people.

6 minutes ago, John Doe said:

When did he plan on murdering Davos? I thought he had thrown him in a dungeon, in the name of the king?

He said he'd throw Davos over the walls of Dragonstone if he didn't support his bid to be Stannis's new Hand in ASoS.

8 minutes ago, John Doe said:

What narrow sea lord do you have in mind, in particular? So far you failed to provide evidence of any other lord planning to act differently then Imry did. Unless you can't provide someone who was better suited for the job based on the facts, not speculation, you can't fault Stannis for choosing Imry. Again, as far as we know the lords agreed to Imry's plan. 

Velaryon, Celtigar, Estermont, anyone.

Imry did a notably terrible job, anyone could have done better, even the cook, unless you want to imply that every single one of Stannis's lords was stupid enough to have fallen for the blatant trap that was the Blackwater and to have never bothered to scout the waters. 

10 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Davos is even more impressive then Aurane, so I don't get what you are trying to prove here. That Stannis isn't the only king with meritocratic tendencies? Sure, never argued against it. But you accused him of being especially nepotistic, and I proved you wrong.  Aurane wasn't promoted based on his merit besides, but even if he was, that point would be moot.  

I'm trying to say that Stannis isn't as incredibly meritocratic as his fans would have you believe by showing that Joffrey and Tommen's regimes did the exact same thing, except that Stannis had a stronger tendency to give in to nepotism than they do.

14 minutes ago, John Doe said:

He did, Cersei herself said so. But I already provided the quote in a past discussion with you, I suppose it's a fruitless effort. 

Yes, because Cersei is absolutely the most objective person around when Robert is concerned, and never imagines slights where there are none.

15 minutes ago, John Doe said:

At the earliest he got Melisandre shortly before Robert's death, he didn't have her with him when he retreated to Dragonstone and took the fleet with him in the first place, so you're wrong 

At latest, you mean, Dragonstone is already converted and she's been around for a while once we see Stannis in the ACoK prologue.

17 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Are you kidding me? You say he ordered the death of his brother and then was in denial to a point where he said he didn't commit the crime? The same man who eats leather rather than surrendering and watches people burn with his only reaction being a bit of teeth grinding? You'll have to provide evidence for him being so easily shocked so suddenly. 

Yes, I'm saying her orders a witch to murder his brother, and when it actually happens, he cannot actually believe it. He's passed the moral event horizon, and is clearly in shock. Cue regret: I'll go to my grave thinking of Renly.

18 minutes ago, John Doe said:

If it was a different reason, you'll have to provide evidence for it. Besides, a queen can have authority in the king's absence. 

"We prayed for you in your absence, my lord."

Selyse was not interested in dispensing justice, she wanted a sacrifice.

19 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Again your hatred of the character shines through and shows how little objectivity you can bring to the discussion. 

Where do you see hatred? I love the character. I simply don't imagine him as a goodie-two-shoes the same way you do. I appreciate characters with moral imperfections, and will not try to explain every shitty action they commit with ridiculous conspiracy theories such "He knew that Cressen was going to die, and that's why he was being a dick."

22 minutes ago, John Doe said:

When did he say she was a hero? Also, most readers don't see her as flawless at all. She's actually among the most polarizing characters. 

He lists her as one of the five original heroes on his first draft.

And yes, on the forum she is polarizing, in general, she is not. But then again, your argument about Stannis being widely seen as just also falls flat if you consider the forums, just look at the number of people who disagree with this assessment in this thread if you don't believe me.