The "Truth" About Dany

[wordpuncher]

First post, please pardon all redundancy, stupidity and ignorance. 

I have been trying to get to the bottom of Dany's background. I believe Quaithe has something specific in mind when she tells Dany that there is "truth" to find in Asshai. I also believe that "truth" has something to do with Dany's background. Quaithe keeps insisting that Dany needs to remember who she is. Dany has forgotten something that she perhaps once knew, and maybe she's not who she thinks she is. I don't have any specific theory about who Dany may be, but in the hopes of getting closer to an answer, I've narrowed down a few aspects of Dany's story that remain unresolved. I'm hoping to see if anyone has any thoughts that might shed some light on Dany's background...

1. WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW OF DANY'S BIRTH?

We are told that Dany was born "nine moons" after Visyers and Rhaella arrived on Dragonstone, and that her mother died in childbirth. But how do we know this? We know BECAUSE DANY TOLD US (GOT, Dany I). Now, she most likely received this information from Viserys. Viserys is her greatest source of background regarding Westerosi/family events, but even Viserys is an unreliable narrator. For example, he tells her about Rhaegar dying on the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, but Viserys was not present for either of these events. Was he even present for Dany's birth? Do we really know that Rhaella died in childbirth on Dragonstone? More important, was Viserys even with Rhaella on Dragonstone? He tells Dany his memories of leaving King's Landing on a sailboat at night. But Jamie specifically recalls the last time he saw Rhaella alive, leaving King's Landing in the morning. If Viserys and Rhaella did not sail at the same time, did they sail to the same place?

 2. THE LEMON TREE IMPOSSIBILITY

Obviously, GRRM has done everything he can to make it clear that a lemon tree growing in Braavos would at the very least be a strange (if not impossible) occurrence. Some readers believe this is explained by a potted tree being moved inside during the winter and back out during nicer Braavosi weather (not sure if that kind of weather even exists in Braavos). That would be reasonable solution, except that it doesn't come FROM THE TEXT. While Martin is repeatedly pointing out the problem with growing lemon trees in Braavos, he has not once slipped us a Braavosi botanist explaining how one keeps tropical trees in Braavosi courtyards (unless I'm missing something). As I refuse to accept a solution that is not supported by the text, I am bound to believe that Dany is mistaken about The House with the Red Door. It is not in Braavos. Her descriptions seem to lead to a reasonable conclusion that HWTRD is in Dorne. But that only raises a host of other questions. The most obvious is that if Dany were really growing up in the watergardens or somewhere in Dorne with Willem Darry, who signed a pact with the Martells, then why would the Martells just let the children wander free after Darry died? 

3. WILLEM DARRY'S HANDS

On at least two specific occasions, GRRM draws our attention to the fact that Dany believes Willem Darry has smooth hands. Would a master at arms have smooth hands? It's a fair question, but the text only gives us Darry's job description to go on. Nonetheless, given that Martin is drawing our attention to this detail (once during Dany's vision at the House of the Undying), I have to believe it's important for some reason. The most likely reason is relating to Willem Darry's identity. Is this the real Willem Darry? Preston Jacobs, in his R+L = D theory suggests that this is not the same Willem Darry who was the Targs Master at Arms and sailed with Rhaella to Dragstone. I find this difficult to make sense of. What advantage would one have in pretending to be Ser Willem Darry? If someone were able to steal Dany and Viserys from a nursery with four servants and a wet nurse, what utility would there be in passing themselves off as Darry? Also, Darry apparently died of a wasting sickness. Two other victims of wasting sickness, Corenna Swann and Jeyne Beesbury, were also from the Riverlands, indicating that Dany's Darry may have been the real Darry.

4. POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE PARENTAGE FOR DANY 

Of course, R+L=D is sitting there as a lightning rod for scorn. But at this point, the biggest argument against it is that people tend to be more convinced by R+L=J. Until one is confirmed, I won't rule out the other. I don't think that R+L=D is impossible, but it does have some major issues. The biggest for me is how do we get Willem Darry (who supposedly sailed for Dragonstone after the Trident) together with this baby born in Dorne? Maybe Darry never went to Dragonstone. Maybe he died there. Maybe he took Viserys to Dorne and eventually paired him up with Dany. But this creates more logistical problems. How do we eventually get to a scenario in which Darry (or a fake Darry) is signing a marriage pact with the Martells witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos? And, again, how do we wind up with the Martells failing to keep track of the valuable Targaryen children? And why would someone pretend to be Willem Darry? 

I've seen A+A=D, but I think it's a stretch that the Mad King raped Ashara Dayne at the Harrenhal Tourney. GRRM simply hasn't laid the groundwork for it. He laid the groundwork for B+A=J or B+A=Some Other Bastard and for A+J=T, but not for Aenys raping Ashara, unless someone can point me to something I've forgotten beyond the fact that both of them were in the same place at the same time. More important, that theory barely changes anything about Dany. She's still a Targaryen and a descendent of the Mad King in that scenario. It's replacing one mother she never knew with another and it does nothing to change her right to the throne as she'd have to claim it by conquest either way.

Anyway, I'd appreciate it if anyone has any thoughts on any of this. I sense that GRRM Martin is trying to point us toward something with Dany's background, but I can't get any closer to it than this bundle of questions.
 

[JLE]

I think the "Remember who you are" is a warning: Dany has an *evil* heritage - one of death, destruction and madness - and she must try to escape it, not embrace it.

If so, she's not doing very well: so far, death and destruction has come to everything she has touched... and in Meereen, despite even her best efforts otherwise.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

When Daenerys arrived in Qarth (Daenerys II, Clash 27), she wrestles between her desire to rest and enjoy Renlys peach*, and her desire to avenge her house and reclaim her father's crown...

Quote

When all the men had gone, her handmaids stripped off the travel-stained silks she wore, and Dany padded out to where the marble pool sat in the shade of a portico. The water was deliciously cool, and the pool was stocked with tiny golden fish that nibbled curiously at her skin and made her giggle. It felt good to close her eyes and float, knowing she could rest as long as she liked.

 

...

 

But before she could do that she must conquer.

 

...

 

Her doubts made her shiver. Suddenly the water felt cold to her, and the little fish prickling at her skin annoying.

And then Quaithe, the only person in Qarth outside of her khalasar not trying to exploit Daenerys, advises her...

Quote

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Daenerys III, Clash

Many commenters seem to agree with Daenerys that Quaithe was advising Daenerys to go to Asshai to gain knowledge...

Quote

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai. "Will the Asshaii give me an army? she demanded. Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

 

"Truth," said the woman in the mask. And bowing, she faded back into the crowd.

But Quaithe never actually advised Daenerys to go to Asshai. In fact, she would later advise Daenerys to remember who she is: the blood of The Dragon.Rather, Quaithe suggested that Daenerys would not find truth in Qarth.

Quaithe was advising Daenerys that she must apply counter intuition, that she has to go in an opposite direction to get to her destination. To sit the Iron Throne and consolidate her rule over the Seven Kingdoms, Daenerys must give up her desire to live a sheltered peaceful life eating peaches and resting in pools with nibbling fish. She must remember who she is and go back to the Dothraki Sea.

*http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Peach_(Renly's)

[Ygrain]

Just one little botanist point: lemons are not tropical but subtropical. Subtropical plants can be grown outside if you arrange microclimate (elevated position, south wall to accumulate heat) and provide cover for harsh weather. This way, in a chateau garden they grew e.g figs and almonds, and that's the way our local botanical garden grows various citruses.

[wordpuncher]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Just one little botanist point: lemons are not tropical but subtropical. Subtropical plants can be grown outside if you arrange microclimate (elevated position, south wall to accumulate heat) and provide cover for harsh weather. This way, in a chateau garden they grew e.g figs and almonds, and that's the way our local botanical garden grows various citruses.

OK, but my issue is that we don't get this from the books. We can imagine all kinds of science and problem-solving around the narrative, but unless the author drops a clue that this solution is happening within this world, I can't attribute that ingenuity to the characters. If someone could point me to a character growing figs in Braavos, I'd be far more likely to accept the possibility that Dany grew up there.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 hours ago, wordpuncher said:

1. WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW OF DANY'S BIRTH?

We know that when she was born GRRM told it.

 

[wordpuncher]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

Many commenters seem to agree with Daenerys that Quaithe was advising Daenerys to go to Asshai to gain knowledge...

But Quaithe never actually advised Daenerys to go to Asshai. In fact, she would later advise Daenerys to remember who she is: the blood of The Dragon.Rather, Quaithe suggested that Daenerys would not find truth in Qarth.

I see what you mean. It does seem debatable as to whether Quiathe is actually advising Dany to go to Asshai. But her riddle is a direct response to Dany's question, "Where would you have me go?" And Dany does surmise that she's speaking of Asshai and Quaithe at the very least tells Dany that she will find truth in Asshai, even if she's not explicitly telling her to go there. 

I agree that there's a superficial reading of this that Dany is supposed to find her inner Dragon and get ready to go to war. But I also think the author (if not Quaithe herself) is priming us for a reveal about Dany's past. 

 

 

[wordpuncher]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

We know that when she was born GRRM told it.

 

Cool, where can I find that?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, wordpuncher said:

Cool, where can I find that?

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing  http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

[Maxxine]

I think the Quaithe "remember who you are" is trying to tell Dany to remember she is a Targ, "fire and blood." While in Mereen she's trying to be diplomatic and give in, which has not worked. So she needs to embrace her "fire and blood" heritage. Unlike others I don't see this as a bad thing by her gaining madness like her father but more embracing Aegon the Conqueror way of doing things. Aegon had dragons and he used him. During the Conquer if someone wanted to fight he didn't try to be diplomatic like Dany with SoH and the rest of Slaver's Bay. He made his point with his dragons, then afterward was capable of being diplomatic,forgiving, and seemingly a good king. Dany needs to do the same thing.

In regards to the Red Door being in Bravvos, I don't like to read into it as much as others. She was probably less than 5 when she lived behind the red door. It could be as simple as misremembering or just not ever knowing where she actually was because she was so young. I'm just not willing to think it's some big conspiracy behind her birth. On the other hand, Viserys was old enough to know what was going on, old enough to know if he has a sister or not and if his mother was pregnant and whether or not he was with his mother. That's really my biggest issue with the Dany birth conspiracy. So they just told Viserys he had a sister and he didn't realize that girl didn't come from his mother or they told his about the plan and he never mentioned it. It's a stretch.

I've never thought about Darry's hands though.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

16 hours ago, wordpuncher said:

1. WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW OF DANY'S BIRTH?

 

We are told that Dany was born "nine moons" after Visyers and Rhaella arrived on Dragonstone, and that her mother died in childbirth. But how do we know this? We know BECAUSE DANY TOLD US (GOT, Dany I). Now, she most likely received this information from Viserys.

Then there's another source, namely the whole crew (the garrison, the servants, etc.) of Dragonstone. A few hundred of people, there, likely dozens of eye witnesses. That's how the whole world knows about Daenerys Stormborn. A few hundred people couldn't possibly keep a secret like that indefinitely.

16 hours ago, wordpuncher said:

 2. THE LEMON TREE IMPOSSIBILITY

Obviously, GRRM has done everything he can to make it clear that a lemon tree growing in Braavos would at the very least be a strange (if not impossible) occurrence. Some readers believe this is explained by a potted tree being moved inside during the winter and back out during nicer Braavosi weather (not sure if that kind of weather even exists in Braavos). That would be reasonable solution, except that it doesn't come FROM THE TEXT.

You mean, there's nothing like "Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty"?

16 hours ago, wordpuncher said:

While Martin is repeatedly pointing out the problem with growing lemon trees in Braavos, he has not once slipped us a Braavosi botanist explaining how one keeps tropical trees in Braavosi courtyards (unless I'm missing something). As I refuse to accept a solution that is not supported by the text, I am bound to believe that Dany is mistaken about The House with the Red Door. It is not in Braavos. Her descriptions seem to lead to a reasonable conclusion that HWTRD is in Dorne.

So, when, in Dorne, Ser Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell (not Doran, for some reason) signed a contract involving Daenerys, the document was witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos - how?

Anyway, Dany hiding in Dorne, instead of Braavos, changes our views on Dany's parentage why and how, exactly?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

52 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing  http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

That may be probable... But we don't know this... You are assuming that Dany is the child of Rhaella, aka Stormborn. She doesn't have to be, she could be Lyanna's daughter born "closer to 8-9 months than a year" after Jon.

As far as Willem Darry's hands, that's interesting... I've always liked the idea that the old man Dany remembers isn't Willem Darry but William Dustin instead... The focus on his red stallion and Ned not bringing home his companions bodies, and that Dany always remembers Ser Willem as having a limp, might be why nobody but Ned and Howland survived to RIDE away from the tower of joy. The only other description of Dustin we get is him being loud and making jests at Cat and Ned's Wedding.

There are so many lines in Dany's first few chapters that lead me to doubt the story of her past that we (and she) have been told... She only knows what Viserys has told her... 

Another fun detail is that Illyrio says:

"Look at her. That silver hair, those purple eyes... She is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt... And highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling.

But now we know hat Illyrio has secretly been raising Aegon to take the throne... 

[wordpuncher]

20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing  http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

Thank you. I'm not sure that I see how this fixes the date of Dany's birth, though. 

Quote

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

I still don't think there's any confirmation that Dany was born nine moons after the Trident or that she was born on Dragonstone. The only thing we know for certain is that she was born 8-9 months after Jon Snow. Therefore, if Dany was born nine months after the Trident, then Lyanna could not have died giving birth to Jon Snow, because Jon Snow was born 8-9 months prior to Dany. Which means Jon Snow would have been born within a month of the Trident.  

If Dany is correct about being born nine moons after leaving King's Landing, and Rhaella was in fact shipped out the day after Rhaegar died, then time line would look like this:

TRIDENT + 0: Rhaegar Dies
TRIDENT + 1 Day (give or take a day as we're assuming news reached KL quickly): Rhaella flees to Dragonstone
TRIDENT + 0-1 Month: Jon Snow is Born
TRIDENT + 9 Moons: Dany is born

Therefore, Lyanna could not have died while giving birth to Jon (at least not during the Showdown at the Red Mountains). Because the Showdown couldn't have happened within one month of the Trident. This doesn't necessarily rule out R+L=J. It is possible that Jon Snow was born well before the Showdown at the Red Mountains, and that the bed of blood resulted from suicide. But it makes me more likely to believe that either we're wrong about the timing of Dany's birth or that we're wrong about her parentage.

If Jon is Ashara Dayne's son, born around the time of Trident, and then Dany is born at the TOJ, it makes sense that Ned swaps the babies when he returns Dawn. (Not sure if anything else makes sense in that scenario.)

Otherwise, if Jon is born at the TOJ as theorized, then Dany could not have been born on Dragonstone nine moons after the Trident. Unless Ned arrived at the TOJ before Rhaella got to Dragonstone. And that's impossible for so many reasons, including the fact that he went to Storm's End to lift the siege. 

So, if Lyanna dies in childbirth at the TOJ giving birth to Jon Snow, and Dany is born nine months later, then Dany can't be the daughter of the Mad King. Because he was dead long before the TOJ, and Dany would have been conceived within a month of the Showdown. So, what Targaryens would have been left to conceive Dany? Presumably Rhaella. But then Dany could not have been born on Dragonstone as Stannis would have taken it by that point (nine months after TOJ). 

TL;DR: If Dany and Jon are fixed in a timeline with births 8-9 months apart, that means Dany could only have been born on Dragonstone nine moons after the Trident if Jon was born within a month of the Trident, and Lyanna did not die giving birth to Jon during the Showdown.


 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Then there's another source, namely the whole crew (the garrison, the servants, etc.) of Dragonstone. A few hundred of people, there, likely dozens of eye witnesses. That's how the whole world knows about Daenerys Stormborn. A few hundred people couldn't possibly keep a secret like that indefinitely.

You mean, there's nothing like "Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty"?

So, when, in Dorne, Ser Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell (not Doran, for some reason) signed a contract involving Daenerys, the document was witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos - how?

Anyway, Dany hiding in Dorne, instead of Braavos, changes our views on Dany's parentage why and how, exactly?

If the whole court in Kings Landing saw a dead baby Aegon, and that's open for debate, then I think witnessing babies isn't worth much.

There are more problems than just the tree, she remembers running through grass in bare feet and sweet smells hat are out of place with fishy Braavos...

Dany isn't mentioned in the Dorne marriage contract, I think that's a point against her being who she was told she is... But meh

Because her growing up in Westeros for the first few years of her life means a lot of hose quotes about home and remembering will make way more sense... Also, she would be Jon's sister, and all those visions about Rhaegar make more sense if he's her dad...

There are also, I believe, a number of quotes that point to her being Lyanna's daughter, including but not limited too: her natural talent on a horse, the great wolf in MMD's tent, she was"cold as ice" when dealing with the poisoned wine merchant, the reason she sees so many Starks in the HotU, the whole "wake the dragon" dream including what is very similar to a Stark Crypt dream except with Targ looking ghosts...

[wordpuncher]

32 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Then there's another source, namely the whole crew (the garrison, the servants, etc.) of Dragonstone. A few hundred of people, there, likely dozens of eye witnesses. That's how the whole world knows about Daenerys Stormborn. A few hundred people couldn't possibly keep a secret like that indefinitely.

Quote

They could if there was no secret to keep. If Dany wasn't born on Dragonstone, would the servants there at the time be aware that this didn't happen? The only person who's been told this lie is Dany. She's never encountered the servants at Dragonstone to check on that story. The only other person who talks about this is Stannis. He talks about Robert being mad because he let the children get away. But is this a conclusion Stannis they came to immediately? Did Stannis immediately know there were two children to find at Dragonstone? We have no evidence that he learned this — or didn't learn it — from the people at Dragonstone. 

 

32 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You mean, there's nothing like "Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty"?

That's not particularly persuasive when it comes to lemon trees. It more just tells me that there is almost NO tree life in Braavos. If you want a tree in Braavos it takes considerable effort to begin with. And now we're to believe that someone grew a lemon tree? Again, if I had evidence that suggested some character in the book had worked out a solution to this problem, I'd let it go. But that doens't seem to exist. Instead, I have persistent reminders that lemons only grow in the South and that Braavos is a lousy place to grow anything.

32 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

So, when, in Dorne, Ser Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell (not Doran, for some reason) signed a contract involving Daenerys, the document was witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos - how?

 

I have the same question. This lends to credence to idea that she was in Braavos. That said, we don't know if that pact is valid. We're also not certain that Dany was with Viserys at the time. That would explain why the agreement only involves Visyers and Arianne, but not Quentyn and Dany. It's also possible that the Sealord came to Dorne. 

32 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Anyway, Dany hiding in Dorne, instead of Braavos, changes our views on Dany's parentage why and how, exactly?

Well, it actually starts with the fact that Quiathe keeps telling her to remember "who she is." So, that plus all these questions concerning her background have only led me to the conclusions that something is up. I'm not sure what. But in this review of trying to lock down Dany's backstory, I found that a LOT more questions came up. So until I have confirmation from someone who isn't Dany or Visyers, I'm leaving all possibilities on the table, including the possibility that Dany was born to Rhaella on Dragonstone.

[wordpuncher]

6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There are more problems than just the tree, she remembers running through grass in bare feet and sweet smells hat are out of place with fishy Braavos...

Right. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

As to the lemon tree, a very reputable company was engaged to transplant it from Tyrosh to Braavos. Unfortunately, they left Daenerys's accent behind. 

Seriously, the lemon tree is a clue that Daenerys's arc will end in bitterness and disappointment, perhaps futility. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to the lemon tree, a very reputable company was engaged to transplant it from Tyrosh to Braavos. Unfortunately, they left Daenerys's accent behind. 

Seriously, the lemon tree is a clue that Daenerys's arc will end in bitterness and disappointment, perhaps futility. 

This has always sounded like such a weak explanation... To me, not intending to throw shade...

Especially since this isn't about just the lemon tree, that's one part that's gotten a lot of attention, but there are other reasons to doubt Dany's past as told to us, and her.

Also, I think metaphorically it's bitter truth that the lemon represents, not disappointment... As opposed to sweet lies... but again maybe that's me

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This has always sounded like such a weak explanation... To me, not intending to throw shade...

Especially since this isn't about just the lemon tree, that's one part that's gotten a lot of attention, but there are other reasons to doubt Dany's past as told to us, and her.

Also, I think metaphorically it's bitter truth that the lemon represents, not disappointment... As opposed to sweet lies... but again maybe that's me

Hey, I am the last one who should complain about grand theories built on what I might see as a house of cards (ie, crackpot). Well maybe not the last one...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hey, I am the last one who should complain about grand theories built on what I might see as a house of cards (ie, crackpot). Well maybe not the last one...

Haha fair... But here is the bit that started me on the R+L=J&D kick... No lemon trees in sight...

 

In Dany's very first chapter she describes Westeros:

 

Somewhere beyond the sunset, across the narrow sea, lay a land of green hills and flowered plains and great rushing rivers, where towers of dark stones rose amidst magnificent blue-grey mountains, and armored knights rode to battle beneath the banners of their lords. The Dothraki called the land Raesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked of Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. “Our land,” he called it. The words were like a prayer with him. If he said them enough, the gods were sure to hear. “Ours by blood rite, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.”

 

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. 

 

Then in her "wake the dragon" dream:

 

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

" . . . the dragon . . . "

 

smell home = flowered plains

great stone houses = towers of dark stones

green fields = green hills

arms = banners

 

The Dragon Remembers even if she does not

 

Red Door = Home = Westeros