Military strengths of the Houses of Westeros

[Universal Sword Donor]

42 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Off course they care if their peasants live. They need healthy farmers and soldiers. And of course it is in their best interests for Roose to win control of the North. 

The description we get in ADWD does not sound that dissimilar (or at least weaker) to the description of the Northern army that Cat gives in AGOT

Three days later, the vanguard of Roose Bolton's host threaded its way through the ruins and past the row of grisly sentinels - four hundred mounted Freys clad in blue and grey, their spearpoints glittering whenever the sun broke through the clouds....And at the rear, more Freys. At least a thousand, maybe more: bowmen, spearmen, peasants armed with scythes and sharpened sticks, freeriders and mounted archers, and another hundred knights to stiffen them.

The Frey army 

This host her son had assembled was not a standing army such as the Free Cities were accustomed to maintain, nor a force of guardsmen paid in coin. Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever.

Robb's original host

Tywin;s death, or news of Tywin's death, is not likely to have reached the Twins before Roose set off. However are we told that is actually Tywin (or even Cersei's) orders and not something agreed upon by Walder and grandson-in-law Roose?

1) The northern foot and the Frey levies (both quality and bad) are all of the above. That said, there is a marked difference between the quality Frey and Northern foot and what gets sent north with Roose:

“Behind her came Ser Jared Frey, Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Danwell Frey, and Lord Walder’s bastard son Ronel Rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silvery grey cloaks.”

“The larger part of the northern host, pikes and archers and great masses of men-at-arms on foot, remained upon the east bank under the command of Roose Bolton.”

“A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken shields marked with the sunburst of Karstark.”

“Tyrion saw Shagga catch a spearman full in the chest as the fool came on at a run, saw his axe shear through mail and leather and muscle and lungs. ”

There is way more I could include but every single northerner we see march south with Robb and the Frey infantry all have quality armor, a good polearm, and shields for some of the spearmen. The ADWD Frey levies that march north are at least in part literally armed with field implements. So we have two options: Either the Freys didn't care enough to arm people who aren't a part of their normal levy -- this typically doesn't fall to the lord anyway -- or the Freys sent the bottom of the barrel north for some reason (eg they are meant to be arrow fodder like the wildlings were for Stannis).

I've said this in many threads before, the infantry across the kingdom is generally comparable to each other. The only exceptions we see are the mountain clansmen and some of the Frey peasants. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think it is simply a case of George wanting to depict that the Freys are stretched to their last dregs, and the armor from Robb's dead Red Wedding troops having disappeared for some reason. Most likely, soldiers, camp followers and the like scavenged it all, and whatever remained was kept by the Freys to start paying for their massive war costs.

Remember, it is not Walder Frey who arms all of his troops, but rather the petty lord or landed knight who provides them. So if these 500 new peasants were provided by some petty lords and landed knights on the outskirts of the Frey lands, well, they might not have been present at the Red Wedding, and might not have any resources left to arm these reserve troops properly. And Walder is not going to fork out his own money to arm peasants that belong to one of his vassals, unless the situation is really serious.

[Corvo the Crow]

Some Ironborn and Stannis information:

 

Ironborn: Less than 450 ships and 25000 men They do NOT sow so a much higher percentage can be raised.

Stannis: 100 knights from his own vassals.

 

 

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The longship was so new that she still smelled of pitch and resin. His uncle Aeron would bless her on the morrow, but Theon had ridden over from Pyke to get a look at her before she was launched. She was not so large as Lord Balon's own Great Kraken or his uncle Victarion's Iron Victory, but she looked swift and sweet, even sitting in her wooden cradle on the strand; lean black hull a hundred feet long, a single tall mast, fifty long oars, deck enough for a hundred men . . . and at the prow, the great iron ram in the shape of an arrowhead.

Description of a longship, ACOK 11

 

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Theon was more interested in ships than gods. Among the masts of countless fishing boats, he spied a Tyroshi trading galley off-loading beside a lumbering Ibbenese cog with her black-tarred hull. A great number of longships, fifty or sixty at the least, stood out to sea or lay beached on the pebbled shore to the north. Some of the sails bore devices from the other islands; the blood moon of Wynch, Lord Goodbrother's banded black warhorn, Harlaw's silver scythe. Theon searched for his uncle Euron's Silence. Of that lean and terrible red ship he saw no sign, but his father's Great Kraken was there, her bow ornamented with a grey iron ram in the shape of its namesake.
Had Lord Balon anticipated him and called the Greyjoy banners? His hand went inside his cloak again, to the oilskin pouch. No one knew of his letter but Robb Stark; they were no fools, to entrust their secrets to a bird. Still, Lord Balon was no fool either. He might well have guessed why his son was coming home at long last, and acted accordingly.

"As to Dagmer, the Cleftjaw is gone to Old Wyk at your father's behest, to roust the Stonehouses and the Drumms."

Your sister has taken Black Wind to Great Wyk, with messages from your lord father. She will return e'er long, you may be sure."

ACOK 11 Ironborn ships are gathering, less than a hundred at the moment.

 

 

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Lord Goodbrother of Great Wyk had come in the night before with his main strength, near forty longships. His men were everywhere, conspicuous in their striped goat's hair sashes. It was said about the inn that Otter Gimpknee's whores were being fucked bowlegged by beardless boys in sashes. The boys were welcome to them so far as Theon was concerned

ACOK 24

Asha has returned. Also notice how the crew is described.

 

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The long smoky hall was crowded with his father's lords and captains when Theon entered, near four hundred of them. Dagmer Cleftjaw had not yet returned from Old Wyk with the Stonehouses and Drumms, but all the rest were there—Harlaws from Harlaw, Blacktydes from Blacktyde, Sparrs, Merlyns, and Goodbrothers from Great Wyk, Saltcliffes and Sunderlies from Saltcliffe, and Botleys and Wynches from the other side of Pyke

ACOK 24 Even with only two lords missing, ships total less than 400.

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"If my sister can take a castle, so can I." "Asha has four or five times the men we do." "...Helman Tallhart took his best men south, and Benfred died here with their sons. His uncle leobald will remain, with some small garrison."

With thirty men, I captured Winterfell in a night. You needed a thousand and a moon's turn to take Deepwood Motte."

I can't find the quote but there was also one on Theon and Asha's ship numbers, one had 8 the other 30.

Ironfleet has 100 ships, If those captains who aren't independent is also in this count, then ironborn don't even have 500 ships. Making the reports of a thousand ships highly exaggarated.

If Asha's number are any indication of roughly how many men an average longship has, then

1000/30 =~34 Theon's comissioned longship has room enough for 100 men and has 50 oars but some of that room would be used for cargo(salt wives, thralls, loot).

Assuming coming lords will bring 50 ships (I doubt it will be this many)and 100 ships in ironfleet double the size and with full crew (full oarsmen)

350 x 34(50) + 100 x 100 = ~21900(27500)

There was also this quote saying thousands of fisherfolk in pebbleton, so they may fully crew their ships if need be but doesn't seem to be the case. No volunteers or fewer (people) means more (loot)?

 

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The Myraham was rounding a wooded point. Below the pine-clad bluffs, a dozen fishing boats were pulling in their nets. The big cog stayed well out from them, tacking. Theon moved to the bow for a better view. He saw the castle first, the stronghold of the Botleys. When he was a boy it had been timber and wattle, but Robert Baratheon had razed that structure to the ground. Lord Sawane had rebuilt in stone, for now a small square keep crowned the hill. Pale green flags drooped from the squat corner towers, each emblazoned with a shoal of silvery fish.
Beneath the dubious protection of the fish-ridden little castle lay the village of Lordsport, its harbor aswarm with ships. When last he'd seen Lordsport, it had been a smoking wasteland, the skeletons of burnt longships and smashed galleys littering the stony shore like the bones of dead leviathans, the houses no more than broken walls and cold ashes. After ten years, few traces of the war remained. The smallfolk had built new hovels with the stones of the old, and cut fresh sod for their roofs. A new inn had risen beside the landing, twice the size of the old one, with a lower story of cut stone and two upper stories of timber. The sept beyond had never been rebuilt, though; only a seven-sided foundation remained where it had stood. Robert Baratheon's fury had soured the ironmen's taste for the new gods, it would seem.

Lordsport is supposed to be the biggest settlement on the Isles.

 

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Stannis seemed well satisfied with that. "I can give you such men, yes. I have a hundred knights who would sooner read than fight. Be open where you can and stealthy where you must

 

[Corvo the Crow]

This will be on Hightowers

Can't find quotes on this, so if anyone has them it'd be nice to have them posted here... or I may just write them all myself once I have time.

 

Hightowers: 9000-15000 is a possible range. around 12000 seems almost certain.

 

From tPatQ

1) A dozen lesser lords, bannermen and vassals to Dragonstone, including Celtigars, Stauntons, Massey, Bar Emmon, Darklyn and Velaryon form the black council in tPatQ, altogether they didn't even have as many men as Hightowers alone could field.

From earlier posts; Mootons and Darklyns had 3000 men together, Darklyns likely have the better part, 1600-1700.

Again from earlier posts, Stannis' 1500-1600 men is more than Aegon the Conqueror had when he first landed with his allies.

We do not now how many men Stauntons have and  which houses the other six are (two are likely to be Sunglasses and their bannermen Rambtons.) or how many men they have but known part of their armyshould be around 3000-3500.

2) In battle by the Lakeshore, of the 2000 Winter Wolves, more than two thirds are wounded or killed, meaning less than 670 in fighting capacity.

3) After Lakeshore, among the forces Ser Criston Cole faces in Butcher's Ball, there are hundreds of  Winter Wolves, meaning even if their wounded healed they are not even a thousand.

4) Queen Rhaenyra's army of near nine thousand is greatly outnumbered by Hightower army. Six thousand of this army form to face the Hightowers in the field, after fighting bravely for a time they retreat back to Tumbleton. So there should be high casualties on both sides.

5) After the army retreats in to Tumbleton, Winter Wolves leave the castle through a postern gate and charge into Hightower army, which is ten times their number. In 2 we know there are less than 670 left at that point, though some of the casualties are wounded and could recover. Last knowledge we know of their numbers is they number hundreds so at this point there could be 900.

Even with the highest possible number for Wolves, there are ~9000 Hightowers though this is after battling for some time and we know they greatly outnumbered the Queen's 9000.

They have a lot more than 9000 but couldn't be narrowed more from that.

 

ASOIAF

Stannis had some 3000 men camped at dragonstone, he later has 20000 after a fifth of Renly's Horse leaves with Tarly, Rowan and Tyrell.

If they only took their men with them; 20000-3000 = 17000 , 17000 x 5/4 = 21250, 21250 - 17000 = 4250 , 4250/3 = ~1420 They have on average have 1420 horses.

We know the composition of Renly's host, more or less know the composition of Florents, a reach house and compositions from two Stormlander lords, Caron and Dondarrion.

Renly's host,which had Stormlanders and Reachmen both, had near 6000 infantry (58750 with above information) and around 20000 horse (21250), of which 10000 were heavy lancers and the rest light cavalry and freeriders.

Florents could raise 2000 men, and even after the Blackwater, in which they had only their horsemen and some were in the five thousand men van, more than half the remaining fifteen men are from Florents. Meaning they have a more than 1:2 horse to foot ratio, likely near 1:1. I've argued earlier (or perhaps it was on the other thread) that usually smaller lords tend to have a higher ratio of horse to foot and bigger lords lower, as can be seen with Renly's host, comprised mostly of Reachmen, had only 10000 heavy lancers for near 6000 cavalry and Karstarks, who seem like one of the greater lords that gathered in Winterfell (likely the one who brought most men in Winterfell) only 300 heavy lancers for 2000 cavalry and with Florents, who appear to be a smaller house in the Reach, has 2000 men but a lot more than 750 horses.

Caron and Dondarrion have 800 horse and 4000 foot put together, 1:4 horse to foot. They could be among the greater lords of the Stormlands (very likely) so other Stormlanders have a bit higher horse to foot ratio or they could be smaller lords in Stormlands (not likely as they have as many men as Karstarks, a greater lord of his region, which has more men than the Stormlands), meaning other lords would have lower horse to foot ratio.

Assuming for now, for the purpose of getting Hightowers a plausible number, Rowan, Tyrell and Tarly are roughly equal in both infantry and horse,

Their horse to foot ratio would be worse than Florents near 1:1 but better than Renly's entire heavy horse to foot, around 1:6 as Hightowers are likely to have an even worse ratio with the huge amount of men they have (though they very likely have many more horses than any other single lord).

If Hightowers horse to foot ratio would be , even if they had 1420 horse, same as the average for the above three lords put together, they would have 11360 men for 1:7 horse to foot ratio.

If their horse to foot ratio were better, 1:6 or even 1:5 as the above stormlander lords, they'd have 9940 and 8520 men respectively. First barely exceeds the 9000 Rhaenrys host had and the second falls short.

If they had, say 2000 horses with 1:6 or 1:5 ratios they'd have 14000 and 12000 men, which are both plausible and outnumber greatly the 9000 host.

 

House Hightower is also said to have three times as many men as any Reachmen lord, applying the 1:3 ratio we so often see to the 1420 average of Tyrell, Rowan and Tarly, we have 1420 x 4 = 5680 , 5680 x 3 = 17040. Since these houses appear to be powerful, average lord from the Reach would be less powerful, meaning it is very well possible for Hightowers to have 12000 men.

 

One final addition The 10000 men we read Mace has in High Garden could mostly be the foot part of the Hightowers, or even most of the foot part of Hightowers. Their lands are vast enough it may have taken them more time to gather and with 2000 horse I proposed above, would mean they have 1:5 horse to foot, which fits nicely.

[Corvo the Crow]

This will be (a start) on lords of the Riverlands, will try to expand on it as I have more time.

 

Riverlands: After suffering men in battle and garrisons throughout the Riverlands and sending his bannermen home to harvest and retake their homes, Edmure says he should have 8000 infantry and 3000 horse. 1000-1500 of this would be those who joined Robb, some lordlings, survivors from the battle near Riverrun and Mallisters (likely not the initial force but man newly raised)

 

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Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves had joined with Forrest Frey, Lord of the Crossing and Red Robb Rivers, known as the Bowman of Raventree. The northmen numbered two thousand, Frey commanded two hundred knights and thrice as many foot, Rivers brought three hundred archers to the fray. And scarce had Lord Lefford halted to confront the foe in front of him when more enemies appeared to the South, where Longleaf the Lionslayer and a ragged band of survivors from the earlier battles had been joined by the Lords Bigglestone, Chambers and Perryn

 

...All this was but prelude, for the Lords of the Trident had been gathering their forces. When Ser Criston left the lake behind, striking out overland for the Blackwater, he found them waiting atop a stony ridge; three hundred mounted knights in armor, as many longbow men, three thousand archers, three thousand ragged riverman with spears, hundreds of northmen brandising axes, mauls, spiked maces, and ancient iron swords.

 

 

 

 

 

Mooton:

- At the start of the conquest, Maidenpool and Duskendale together gather three thousand men, as the biggest port on the narrow sea at the time, Duskendale would likely had the better part of this army.

"Elsewhere in the realm, Lord Walys Mooton led a hundred knights out of Maidenpool to join with the half-wild Crabbs and Brunes of Crackclaw Point and the Celtigars of Claw Isle." From The Princess and The Queen.

 

Blackwood: They are mentioned to have 300 archers during Dance of the Dragons.

 

Bracken: After losing men at battle and losing their garrison more than once, they still have 500 men siegeing Raventree Hall.

 

 

 

 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-06-05 at 10:29 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

This will be on Hightowers

Can't find quotes on this, so if anyone has them it'd be nice to have them posted here... or I may just write them all myself once I have time.

 

Hightowers: 9000-15000 is a possible range. around 12000 seems almost certain.

 

From tPatQ

1) A dozen lesser lords, bannermen and vassals to Dragonstone, including Celtigars, Stauntons, Massey, Bar Emmon, Darklyn and Velaryon form the black council in tPatQ, altogether they didn't even have as many men as Hightowers alone could field.

From earlier posts; Mootons and Darklyns had 3000 men together, Darklyns likely have the better part, 1600-1700.

Again from earlier posts, Stannis' 1500-1600 men is more than Aegon the Conqueror had when he first landed with his allies.

We do not now how many men Stauntons have and  which houses the other six are (two are likely to be Sunglasses and their bannermen Rambtons.) or how many men they have but known part of their armyshould be around 3000-3500.

2) In battle by the Lakeshore, of the 2000 Winter Wolves, more than two thirds are wounded or killed, meaning less than 670 in fighting capacity.

3) After Lakeshore, among the forces Ser Criston Cole faces in Butcher's Ball, there are hundreds of  Winter Wolves, meaning even if their wounded healed they are not even a thousand.

4) Queen Rhaenyra's army of near nine thousand is greatly outnumbered by Hightower army. Six thousand of this army form to face the Hightowers in the field, after fighting bravely for a time they retreat back to Tumbleton. So there should be high casualties on both sides.

5) After the army retreats in to Tumbleton, Winter Wolves leave the castle through a postern gate and charge into Hightower army, which is ten times their number. In 2 we know there are less than 670 left at that point, though some of the casualties are wounded and could recover. Last knowledge we know of their numbers is they number hundreds so at this point there could be 900.

Even with the highest possible number for Wolves, there are ~9000 Hightowers though this is after battling for some time and we know they greatly outnumbered the Queen's 9000.

They have a lot more than 9000 but couldn't be narrowed more from that.

 

ASOIAF

Stannis had some 3000 men camped at dragonstone, he later has 20000 after a fifth of Renly's Horse leaves with Tarly, Rowan and Tyrell.

If they only took their men with them; 20000-3000 = 17000 , 17000 x 5/4 = 21250, 21250 - 17000 = 4250 , 4250/3 = ~1420 They have on average have 1420 horses.

We know the composition of Renly's host, more or less know the composition of Florents, a reach house and compositions from two Stormlander lords, Caron and Dondarrion.

Renly's host,which had Stormlanders and Reachmen both, had near 6000 infantry (58750 with above information) and around 20000 horse (21250), of which 10000 were heavy lancers and the rest light cavalry and freeriders.

Florents could raise 2000 men, and even after the Blackwater, in which they had only their horsemen and some were in the five thousand men van, more than half the remaining fifteen men are from Florents. Meaning they have a more than 1:2 horse to foot ratio, likely near 1:1. I've argued earlier (or perhaps it was on the other thread) that usually smaller lords tend to have a higher ratio of horse to foot and bigger lords lower, as can be seen with Renly's host, comprised mostly of Reachmen, had only 10000 heavy lancers for near 6000 cavalry and Karstarks, who seem like one of the greater lords that gathered in Winterfell (likely the one who brought most men in Winterfell) only 300 heavy lancers for 2000 cavalry and with Florents, who appear to be a smaller house in the Reach, has 2000 men but a lot more than 750 horses.

Caron and Dondarrion have 800 horse and 4000 foot put together, 1:4 horse to foot. They could be among the greater lords of the Stormlands (very likely) so other Stormlanders have a bit higher horse to foot ratio or they could be smaller lords in Stormlands (not likely as they have as many men as Karstarks, a greater lord of his region, which has more men than the Stormlands), meaning other lords would have lower horse to foot ratio.

Assuming for now, for the purpose of getting Hightowers a plausible number, Rowan, Tyrell and Tarly are roughly equal in both infantry and horse,

Their horse to foot ratio would be worse than Florents near 1:1 but better than Renly's entire heavy horse to foot, around 1:6 as Hightowers are likely to have an even worse ratio with the huge amount of men they have (though they very likely have many more horses than any other single lord).

If Hightowers horse to foot ratio would be , even if they had 1420 horse, same as the average for the above three lords put together, they would have 11360 men for 1:7 horse to foot ratio.

If their horse to foot ratio were better, 1:6 or even 1:5 as the above stormlander lords, they'd have 9940 and 8520 men respectively. First barely exceeds the 9000 Rhaenrys host had and the second falls short.

If they had, say 2000 horses with 1:6 or 1:5 ratios they'd have 14000 and 12000 men, which are both plausible and outnumber greatly the 9000 host.

 

House Hightower is also said to have three times as many men as any Reachmen lord, applying the 1:3 ratio we so often see to the 1420 average of Tyrell, Rowan and Tarly, we have 1420 x 4 = 5680 , 5680 x 3 = 17040. Since these houses appear to be powerful, average lord from the Reach would be less powerful, meaning it is very well possible for Hightowers to have 12000 men.

 

One final addition The 10000 men we read Mace has in High Garden could mostly be the foot part of the Hightowers, or even most of the foot part of Hightowers. Their lands are vast enough it may have taken them more time to gather and with 2000 horse I proposed above, would mean they have 1:5 horse to foot, which fits nicely.

House Hightower almost surely cant have 12000 men on their own unless you mean hightower + sworn houses.

[Corvo the Crow]

On Invalid Date at 4:31 PM, Coolbeard the Exile said:

House Hightower almost surely cant have 12000 men on their own unless you mean hightower + sworn houses.

Yes, sworn houses included.

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A fortnight later, in the Reach, Ormund Hightower found himself caught between two armies. Thaddeus Rowan, Lord of Goldengrove, and Tom Flowers, Bastard of Bitterbridge, were bearing down on him from the northeast with a great host of mounted knights, whilst Ser Alan Beesbury, Lord Alan Tarly, and Lord Owen Costayne had joined their power to cut off his retreat to Oldtown. When their hosts closed around him on the banks of the river Honeywine, attacking front and rear at once, Lord Hightower saw his lines crumble. Defeat seemed imminent … until a shadow swept across the battlefield, and a terrible roar resounded overhead, slicing through the sound of steel on steel. A dragon had come.

The dragon was Tessarion, the Blue Queen, cobalt and copper. On her back rode the youngest of Queen Alicent’s three sons, Daeron Targaryen, fifteen, Lord Ormund’s squire.

The arrival of Prince Daeron and his dragon reversed the tide of battle. Now it was Lord Ormond’s men attacking, screaming curses at their foes, whilst the queen’s men fled. By day’s end, Lord Rowan was retreating north with the remnants of his host, Tom Flowers lay dead and burned amongst the reeds, the two Alans had been taken captive, and Lord Costayne was dying slowly from a wound given him by Bold Jon Roxton’s black blade, the Orphan-Maker. As wolves and ravens fed upon the bodies of the slain, Lord Hightower feasted Prince Daeron on aurochs and strongwine, and dubbed him a knight with the storied Valryian longsword Vigilance, naming him “Ser Daeron the Daring.” The prince modestly replied, “My lord is kind to say so, but the victory belongs to Tessarion.”

 

....

Hightower's host had crossed the Mander, and was advancing slowly on King's Landing, smashing the queen's loyalists wherever and whenever they sought to hinder him, and forcing every lord who bent the knee to add their strength to his own.

 

These are happenings in Reach before battle of Tumbleton.

Judging by the bolded lines in the first pharagraph and the whole third pharagraph, both sides took heavy losses. No specific lord is mentioned to join Hightowers in the last pharagraph but Rowans have retreated, bastard of Bitterbridge is dead. Alan Tarly is captured. Costaynes and Beesburys are Hightower vassalmen.

[Free Northman Reborn]

House Hightower can raise 3 times what the next most powerful Reach House can raise (vassal Houses included in their total, obviously).

 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes, sworn houses included.

 

These are happenings in Reach before battle of Tumbleton.

Judging by the bolded lines in the first pharagraph and the whole third pharagraph, both sides took heavy losses. No specific lord is mentioned to join Hightowers in the last pharagraph but Rowans have retreated, bastard of Bitterbridge is dead. Alan Tarly is captured. Costaynes and Beesburys are Hightower vassalmen.

Well probably there were many more houses other than Hightower vassals.

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

House Hightower can raise 3 times what the next most powerful Reach House can raise (vassal Houses included in their total, obviously).

 

Yes but what is the strength of the Reach house they have three times the number of?

We know the strength of Florents in numbers, 2000. For some comparison, Karstarks , a major house from the North initially raise 2300 men, then possibly a couple hundred more (to take Winterfell back from Theon) then ~450 more.

We also know the strength of Osgreys in vassals and holdings; At their peak as Marshalls of the Northmarch, they had four castles of their own, several settlements, a score vassal lords and a hundred landed knights. Again for a comparison, Manderlys, likely the most powerful bannermen in the North, has a dozen vassal lords and a hundred landed knights.

Average lord of the Reach is very much likely to have more men in the same amount of land than a lord from The North.

From these Florents look like they are a below average house in the Reach, perhaps the weakest of the major houses.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On Invalid Date at 0:13 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes but what is the strength of the Reach house they have three times the number of?

We know the strength of Florents in numbers, 2000. For some comparison, Karstarks , a major house from the North initially raise 2300 men, then possibly a couple hundred more (to take Winterfell back from Theon) then ~450 more.

We also know the strength of Osgreys in vassals and holdings; At their peak as Marshalls of the Northmarch, they had four castles of their own, several settlements, a score vassal lords and a hundred landed knights. Again for a comparison, Manderlys, likely the most powerful bannermen in the North, has a dozen vassal lords and a hundred landed knights.

Average lord of the Reach is very much likely to have more men in the same amount of land than a lord from The North.

From these Florents look like they are a below average house in the Reach, perhaps the weakest of the major houses.

Absolutely. From the same amount of land a Reach lord will in general raise more men than a Northern lord. However, the Northern lords in general do not seem to rule the same amount of land as an average southron lord. On average they rule far larger areas.

The Karstark lands cover around 50k square miles.

The Umber lands stretch from the Gift in the north, along the Kingsroad south for 300 miles, and to the Shivering Sea in the East. So easily 50k square miles too.

The Rills cover around 200 miles by 200 miles, so 40k square miles or so for the Ryswells territory.

The Dustins rule the Barrowlands, which are larger than all of the others, at around 500 miles by 200 miles, so 100k square miles at a guestimate.

The Manderlys rule most of the lower White Knife, and up to the Sheepshead Hills in the North. At the least their territory seems similar in size to that of the Rills. But it is probably the most economically developed and densely populated of all the Northern areas, culminating in a city at its heart.

Very few southron Houses below Lord Paramount level appear to rule territories of that size. Maybe the Hightowers, and perhaps the Osgreys at the height of their power. So in general a typical Reach lord may actually rule a similar sized population as a typical Northern lord, but condensed into a smaller area. We see that the Dondarrions and Carons for example (southron lords if not Reach lords) raised 4800 men combined against the Vulture King. That equates to around 2400 each. Pretty similar to what House Karstark raised in their first army to join Robb. Similarly we hear that House Florent can raise 2000 men and that the most powerful Riverlands House can raise 4000 men in their main army, with another 500 or so peasants with pitchforks in reserve.

So Houses that can raise 4000 men or more are very powerful, and very rare, no matter where they are located. To answer your question, I believe the 2nd most powerful Reach House is House Redwynne, and that they can raise in the region of 5000-6000 men, or thereabouts, putting the Hightowers in the 15-18k range.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

This will be (a start) on lords of the Riverlands, will try to expand on it as I have more time.

 

Riverlands: After suffering men in battle and garrisons throughout the Riverlands and sending his bannermen home to harvest and retake their homes, Edmure says he should have 8000 infantry and 3000 horse. 1000-1500 of this would be those who joined Robb, some lordlings, survivors from the battle near Riverrun and Mallisters (likely not the initial force but man newly raised)

 

Quote

Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves had joined with Forrest Frey, Lord of the Crossing and Red Robb Rivers, known as the Bowman of Raventree. The northmen numbered two thousand, Frey commanded two hundred knights and thrice as many foot, Rivers brought three hundred archers to the fray. And scarce had Lord Lefford halted to confront the foe in front of him when more enemies appeared to the South, where Longleaf the Lionslayer and a ragged band of survivors from the earlier battles had been joined by the Lords Bigglestone, Chambers and Perryn

 

...All this was but prelude, for the Lords of the Trident had been gathering their forces. When Ser Criston left the lake behind, striking out overland for the Blackwater, he found them waiting atop a stony ridge; three hundred mounted knights in armor, as many longbow men, three thousand archers, three thousand ragged riverman with spears, hundreds of northmen brandising axes, mauls, spiked maces, and ancient iron swords.

 

 

 

 

 

Mooton:

- At the start of the conquest, Maidenpool and Duskendale together gather three thousand men, as the biggest port on the narrow sea at the time, Duskendale would likely had the better part of this army.

"Elsewhere in the realm, Lord Walys Mooton led a hundred knights out of Maidenpool to join with the half-wild Crabbs and Brunes of Crackclaw Point and the Celtigars of Claw Isle." From The Princess and The Queen.

 

 

In Princess and Queen faces three Riverman armies in Riverlands, they have in total 3000 spearman, 3000 bowman, 300 longbowman and 300 knights and surviving men of Roddy the Ruin

One of the armies are made up of survivors of an earlier battle that was lost, another is 300 Blackwood longbows, 200 Frey Knights and 600 spearman, and reinforcements that came with Lord Charlton and Lord Blackwood. Third is made up of houses Bigglestone, Perwyn and Chambers.

Worth mentioning, all three armies saw battle earlier, and one was shattered and retreated but the other two won their earlier battle.

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This will be (a start) on lords of the Riverlands, will try to expand on it as I have more time.

Riverlands: After suffering men in battle and garrisons throughout the Riverlands and sending his bannermen home to harvest and retake their homes, Edmure says he should have 8000 infantry and 3000 horse. 1000-1500 of this would be those who joined Robb, some lordlings, survivors from the battle near Riverrun and Mallisters (likely not the initial force but man newly raised)

Mooton:

- At the start of the conquest, Maidenpool and Duskendale together gather three thousand men, as the biggest port on the narrow sea at the time, Duskendale would likely had the better part of this army.

"Elsewhere in the realm, Lord Walys Mooton led a hundred knights out of Maidenpool to join with the half-wild Crabbs and Brunes of Crackclaw Point and the Celtigars of Claw Isle." From The Princess and The Queen.

In Princess and Queen faces three Riverman armies in Riverlands, they have in total 3000 spearman, 3000 bowman, 300 longbowman and 300 knights and surviving men of Roddy the Ruin

One of the armies are made up of survivors of an earlier battle that was lost, another is 300 Blackwood longbows, 200 Frey Knights and 600 spearman, and reinforcements that came with Lord Charlton and Lord Blackwood. Third is made up of houses Bigglestone, Perwyn and Chambers.

Worth mentioning, all three armies saw battle earlier, and one was shattered and retreated but the other two won their earlier battle.

What the Freys can provide 170 years ago is pretty much irrelevant. We know exactly what they muster during ASOIAF: 3000 foot and 1000 knights (or mounted soldiers). They follow that up by sending 2000 soldiers north to WF, where it's clear the quality of troop drops substantially (either because Frey knows they will all die or because they have no one else to send).

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎13‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 9:51 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

What the Freys can provide 170 years ago is pretty much irrelevant. We know exactly what they muster during ASOIAF: 3000 foot and 1000 knights (or mounted soldiers). They follow that up by sending 2000 soldiers north to WF, where it's clear the quality of troop drops substantially (either because Frey knows they will all die or because they have no one else to send).

But it isn't; if Freys didn't gain any additional lands since then, a comparison of 170 years ago and now for the freys would allow us a similar comparison for some other houses if we also know their numbers from 170 years or so ago.

 

This will be on House Osgrey of Standfast and Webbers of Coldmoat. I believe this will be helpful on figuring out numbers of other houses, especially the Osgrey numbers could help a lot where landed knights are concerned.

 

A look into Osgrey lands

Quote

"If it please m'lord, I could go to Goldengrove and tell Lord Rowan of this dam," said Dunk. Rowan was the old knight's liege lord. The Red Widow held her lands of him as well.

"Rowan? No, look for no help there. Lord Rowan's sister wed Lord Wyman's cousin Wendell, so he is kin to the Red Widow. Besides, he loves me not. Ser Duncan, on the morrow you must make the rounds of all my villages, and roust out every able-bodied man of fighting age. I am old, but I am not dead. The woman will soon find that the chequy lion still has claws!"

Two, Dunk thought glumly, and I am one of them.

Ser Eustace's lands supported three small villages, none more than a handful of hovels, sheepfolds, and pigs. The largest boasted a thatched one-room sept with crude pictures of the Seven scratched upon the walls in charcoal. Mudge, a stoop-backed old swineherd who'd once been to Oldtown, led devotions there every seventh day. Twice a year a real septon came through to forgive sins in the Mother's name.

The smallfolk were glad of the forgiveness, but hated the septon's visits all the same, since they were required to feed him.

They seemed no more pleased by the sight of Dunk and Egg. Dunk was known in the villages, if only as Ser Eustace's new knight, but not so much as a cup of water was offered him. Most of the men were in the fields, so it was largely women and children who crept out of the hovels at their coming, along with a few grandfathers too infirm for work. Egg bore the Osgrey banner, the chequy lion green and gold, rampant upon its field of white. "We come from Standfast with Ser Eustace's summons," Dunk told the villagers. "Every able-bodied man between the ages of fifteen and fifty is commanded to assemble at the tower on the morrow."

 

 

...Are you angry that I did not take your part against Ser Bennis yesterday?" he asked his sullen squire, as they made for the next village. "I like the man no more than you, but he is a knight. You should speak to him with courtesy."...

 

... "We'll see how many men turn up at the tower . . . but whether it's five or fifty, you'll need to do for them as well."...

 

 

The next day a dozen would-be warriors found their way to Standfast to assemble among the chickens.

One was too old, two were too young, and one skinny boy turned out to be a skinny girl. Those Dunk sent back to their villages, leaving eight: three Wats, two Wills, a Lem, a Pate, and Big Rob the lackwit.

 

Quote

Dunk had a sudden sick feeling in the pit of his stomach. "I will tell him, but he won't give up Ser Bennis." He hesitated. "The dam was the cause of all the trouble. If your ladyship would consent to take it down—"

"Impossible," declared the young maester by Lady Rohanne's side. "Coldmoat supports twenty times as many smallfolk as does Standfast. Her ladyship has fields of wheat and corn and barley, all dying from the drought. She has half a dozen orchards, apples and apricots and three kinds of pears. She has cows about to calf, five hundred head of black-nosed sheep, and she breeds the finest horses in the Reach. We have a dozen mares about to foal."

 

The slap she gave him had all her strength behind it, and she was stronger than she looked. His cheek burned, and he could taste blood in his mouth from a broken lip, but she hadn't truly hurt him. For a moment all Dunk could think of was grabbing her by that long red braid and pulling her across his lap to slap her arse, as you would a spoiled child. If I do, she'll scream, though, and twenty knights will come bursting in to kill me.

 

The Widow's cloak was made of the same stuff. It billowed from her shoulders and her wrists, as light as air. She was armored, too, in a suit of green enamel scale chased with gold and silver. It fit her figure like a glove, and made her look as if she were garbed in summer leaves. Her long red braid hung down behind her, bouncing as she rode. Septon Sefton rode red-faced at her side, atop a big gray gelding. On her other side was her young maester, Cerrick, mounted on a mule.

More knights came after, half a dozen of them, attended by as many esquires. A column of mounted crossbowmen brought up the rear, and fanned out to either side of the road when they reached the Chequy Water and saw Dunk waiting on the other side. There were three-and-thirty fighting men all told, excluding the septon, the maester, and the Widow herself. One of the knights caught Dunk's eye; a squat bald keg of a man in mail and leather, with an angry face and an ugly goiter on his neck.

 

Only 8 suitable peasants answer Ser Eustace's summons, but it does appear he could have raised more men than that; the village we get the description has a few grandfathers, which would be a very small percentage of men in a feudal society due to conditions. This means, if all villages have more or less the same number of people, there would be at least 9 grandpas in total Ser Eustace's lands. I couldn't find much information on medieval demographics but I've found one population pyramid,where people aged 50+ is %~15 and -13 are %~30 of the population. This means, with the lowest possible grandpa number 9, Ser Eustace has ~33 men of fighting age available. with each additional grandpa per village, the number increases by 11. Dunk says whether five or fifty, numbers are randomly said, yes, but Dunk saying these numbers and no objection coming from Egg to the numbers is, to me, a clue that fifty men can turn up from three small villages, maybe not Ser Eustace's villages but it is a possibility.

So, if we take Ser Eustace as an above average landed knight (Clegane Keep, for example, has only one village)

and say he has ~33 men at the least and ~50 at most from three small villages, it would mean 11-14 men per small village.

 

Also while doing research for this one, I've come into this bit of information

Quote

The population was counted by fires, each fire was the equivalent to 5–6 people. A lot of villages had 10–12 fires (less than a hundred people). Villages with good farming lands had a more steady growing but the main criteria for succes was being in a commercial route.

This gives both a rough estimation on a medieval village population and a means to use fires as an indicator of how many people there are in an army/settlement.

10-12 fires mean 50-72 people, if we split it equally into men and women, then the number of men of fighting age (%55 of male population) would be somewhere between ~11 to 20 and 16-17 on average which means I am not that far off.

[Nihlus]

On 7/13/2017 at 11:51 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

What the Freys can provide 170 years ago is pretty much irrelevant. We know exactly what they muster during ASOIAF: 3000 foot and 1000 knights (or mounted soldiers). They follow that up by sending 2000 soldiers north to WF, where it's clear the quality of troop drops substantially (either because Frey knows they will all die or because they have no one else to send).

That's not really clear. We know for a fact that there at least 500 mounted men-at-arms and knights (Theon sees at least that many and Cersei describes the force as a whole as numbering 2,000), so at the very least the ratio of heavy cavalry to other troop hasn't changed at all. The only base for claiming this seems to be the presence of a handful of "peasants with sharpened sticks," but to me it seems fairly obvious those aren't soldiers, but camp followers trailing the army a la Meribald.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Nihlus said:

That's not really clear. We know for a fact that there at least 500 mounted men-at-arms and knights (Theon sees at least that many and Cersei describes the force as a whole as numbering 2,000), so at the very least the ratio of heavy cavalry to other troop hasn't changed at all. The only base for claiming this seems to be the presence of a handful of "peasants with sharpened sticks," but to me it seems fairly obvious those aren't soldiers, but camp followers trailing the army a la Meribald.

It is roughly the same, yes. I think the reason for this is, as I mentioned in the "beyond shear numbers" thread, lords have a certain "battle style" so they need to reach a certain horse to foot ratio.For most lords this is 1 horse to 3 foot, but we see variations on it; Tywin seems to go around 1 horse to 2 foot, from Dondarrions and Carons we see marcher lords going for 1 horse to 5 foot. Robb goes all horse and zero foot, even after western riverland is cleared of Lannisters.

A few other things would be:

Whether there are still equipment lying around; unless neccessary sending unarmed men to battle is more trouble than it's worth so once a lord reaches or comes close to the sweet spot, which he will likely do while still being able to properly equip the original army, and then some replacements, he won't draft every available peasant he can't properly equip.

Amount of troops raised seems to have two other factors apart from available equipment. How many horsemen you have and available population.

Number of horsemen you have depends on two things, how rich you are and amount of lands you have.

Population increases as you have more lands, number of horsemen also increases with more lands but not so much as to keep the desired ratio. In fact, from what I've seen so far, smaller houses have more percentage of horsemen in their army (both raised and total avialable) than bigger ones. This is because even if you are the smallest house you'll need some number of household knights so there is a base number depending on your castle size etc. but as you acquire more lands, amount of them you absolutely need to have per area of land decreases. Some examples would be house Florent being able to raise 2000 men, but even after losing all their infantry in Bitterbridge and having men in the van of Stannis, they still have more than half of the ~1500 men Dragonstone. Another example would be Karstarks, Raising around 3000 men so far (2300 with Robb, ~450 with Stannis and some hundreds with Ser Rodrik to retake WF) their first army had 2300 men but only 300 of it horse and Karstark does seem to be a greater lord of their region and Florents a smaller one.

A very good example for all of the above would be Freys; even with all their riches and vast (or at least populous) lands initially only raise some 4000, 3000 infantry and 1000 horsemen. Freys still have more men they could raise, as evidenced by still being able to retain around 4000 men (2000 sieging riverlands, garrisons at Twins and Seagard and men with Roose) even after all the losses they took. Compare it to Karstarks, who, after raising the final ~450 men, have no one left, according to Alys. Their limiting factor was first the amount of horsemen, not allowing them to go beyond 3000 infantry and then the available equipment, not allowing them to properly equip the replacements.

[Free Northman Reborn]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But it isn't; if Freys didn't gain any additional lands since then, a comparison of 170 years ago and now for the freys would allow us a similar comparison for some other houses if we also know their numbers from 170 years or so ago.

 

This will be on House Osgrey of Standfast and Webbers of Coldmoat. I believe this will be helpful on figuring out numbers of other houses, especially the Osgrey numbers could help a lot where landed knights are concerned.

 

A look into Osgrey lands

 

Only 8 suitable peasants answer Ser Eustace's summons, but it does appear he could have raised more men than that; the village we get the description has a few grandfathers, which would be a very small percentage of men in a feudal society due to conditions. This means, if all villages have more or less the same number of people, there would be at least 9 grandpas in total Ser Eustace's lands. I couldn't find much information on medieval demographics but I've found one population pyramid,where people aged 50+ is %~15 and -13 are %~30 of the population. This means, with the lowest possible grandpa number 9, Ser Eustace has ~33 men of fighting age available. with each additional grandpa per village, the number increases by 11. Dunk says whether five or fifty, numbers are randomly said, yes, but Dunk saying these numbers and no objection coming from Egg to the numbers is, to me, a clue that fifty men can turn up from three small villages, maybe not Ser Eustace's villages but it is a possibility.

So, if we take Ser Eustace as an above average landed knight (Clegane Keep, for example, has only one village)

and say he has ~33 men at the least and ~50 at most from three small villages, it would mean 11-14 men per small village.

 

Also while doing research for this one, I've come into this bit of information

This gives both a rough estimation on a medieval village population and a means to use fires as an indicator of how many people there are in an army/settlement.

10-12 fires mean 50-72 people, if we split it equally into men and women, then the number of men of fighting age (%55 of male population) would be somewhere between ~11 to 20 and 16-17 on average which means I am not that far off.

The number of total men of fighting age is not really that relevant. It is the number you can support in the field during a campaign that matters. And if you take an average of say 50 people per village, we are talking maybe 150 people on the Osgrey lands. Make it 200 to be generous. Out of that population they were able to marshal 8 able bodied men at the Tower (including a lackwit), but if you read the description, I doubt all 8 are of soldier material. It seems hardly any of them are real soldier material.

Be that as it may, 8 could be gathered at the Tower. Or rather, 7 and Robb the lackwit. But how many of these "7 plus lackwit" could he equip with appropriate weapons and armour, train to a minimum level of skill, and logistically support with food and other necessities on a proper campaign? It would seem the number would be quite a bit lower than the 8 who rocked up at the Tower. And that would be to defend his own lands. To march any distance beyond his own lands, that number would seemingly drop even lower, to around  2 or 3 fairly quickly. In other words, more or less the 1% of the population figure we always talk about.

57 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It is roughly the same, yes. I think the reason for this is, as I mentioned in the "beyond shear numbers" thread, lords have a certain "battle style" so they need to reach a certain horse to foot ratio.For most lords this is 1 horse to 3 foot, but we see variations on it; Tywin seems to go around 1 horse to 2 foot, from Dondarrions and Carons we see marcher lords going for 1 horse to 5 foot. Robb goes all horse and zero foot, even after western riverland is cleared of Lannisters.

A few other things would be:

Whether there are still equipment lying around; unless neccessary sending unarmed men to battle is more trouble than it's worth so once a lord reaches or comes close to the sweet spot, which he will likely do while still being able to properly equip the original army, and then some replacements, he won't draft every available peasant he can't properly equip.

Amount of troops raised seems to have two other factors apart from available equipment. How many horsemen you have and available population.

Number of horsemen you have depends on two things, how rich you are and amount of lands you have.

Population increases as you have more lands, number of horsemen also increases with more lands but not so much as to keep the desired ratio. In fact, from what I've seen so far, smaller houses have more percentage of horsemen in their army (both raised and total avialable) than bigger ones. This is because even if you are the smallest house you'll need some number of household knights so there is a base number depending on your castle size etc. but as you acquire more lands, amount of them you absolutely need to have per area of land decreases. Some examples would be house Florent being able to raise 2000 men, but even after losing all their infantry in Bitterbridge and having men in the van of Stannis, they still have more than half of the ~1500 men Dragonstone. Another example would be Karstarks, Raising around 3000 men so far (2300 with Robb, ~450 with Stannis and some hundreds with Ser Rodrik to retake WF) their first army had 2300 men but only 300 of it horse and Karstark does seem to be a greater lord of their region and Florents a smaller one.

A very good example for all of the above would be Freys; even with all their riches and vast (or at least populous) lands initially only raise some 4000, 3000 infantry and 1000 horsemen. Freys still have more men they could raise, as evidenced by still being able to retain around 4000 men (2000 sieging riverlands, garrisons at Twins and Seagard and men with Roose) even after all the losses they took. Compare it to Karstarks, who, after raising the final ~450 men, have no one left, according to Alys. Their limiting factor was first the amount of horsemen, not allowing them to go beyond 3000 infantry and then the available equipment, not allowing them to properly equip the replacements.

The Freys raised 3000 foot and 1000 horse at the start of the War. Later, Theon witnesses 500 Frey cavalry and "more than" 1000 Frey infantry marching up the causeway with Roose Bolton. Two things need to be noted here.

Firstly, we don't know how many of these 1500+ men witnessed by Theon were men who had also been part of the initial 4000 who joined Robb. Nowhere does it say that these are different soldiers from those seen before, or whether some of them at least were not part of the previous host.

And secondly, unlike in the original Frey force, Theon specifically mentions peasants with sharpened sticks and pitchforks among the Frey infantry host.

I think a reasonable interpretation here would be that the 500 cavalry and the well armed portion of the infantry - say half of the infantry, perhaps, were soldiers who had been part of the original 4000 Frey host with Robb. And that the peasants with sharpened sticks are reserves who have been raised, basically low quality dregs who are just arrow fodder to bolster the Frey numbers a bit.

So my assessment is that the Freys have raised 4000 proper troops, and maybe 500+ peasants with sharpened sticks.

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

*snip*

So what's your point? Are you aware of any new lands that were granted to the Freys before they started marching north?

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎01‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 10:08 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The number of total men of fighting age is not really that relevant. It is the number you can support in the field during a campaign that matters. And if you take an average of say 50 people per village, we are talking maybe 150 people on the Osgrey lands. Make it 200 to be generous. Out of that population they were able to marshal 8 able bodied men at the Tower (including a lackwit), but if you read the description, I doubt all 8 are of soldier material. It seems hardly any of them are real soldier material.

Be that as it may, 8 could be gathered at the Tower. Or rather, 7 and Robb the lackwit. But how many of these "7 plus lackwit" could he equip with appropriate weapons and armour, train to a minimum level of skill, and logistically support with food and other necessities on a proper campaign? It would seem the number would be quite a bit lower than the 8 who rocked up at the Tower. And that would be to defend his own lands. To march any distance beyond his own lands, that number would seemingly drop even lower, to around  2 or 3 fairly quickly. In other words, more or less the 1% of the population figure we always talk about.

The Freys raised 3000 foot and 1000 horse at the start of the War. Later, Theon witnesses 500 Frey cavalry and "more than" 1000 Frey infantry marching up the causeway with Roose Bolton. Two things need to be noted here.

Firstly, we don't know how many of these 1500+ men witnessed by Theon were men who had also been part of the initial 4000 who joined Robb. Nowhere does it say that these are different soldiers from those seen before, or whether some of them at least were not part of the previous host.

And secondly, unlike in the original Frey force, Theon specifically mentions peasants with sharpened sticks and pitchforks among the Frey infantry host.

I think a reasonable interpretation here would be that the 500 cavalry and the well armed portion of the infantry - say half of the infantry, perhaps, were soldiers who had been part of the original 4000 Frey host with Robb. And that the peasants with sharpened sticks are reserves who have been raised, basically low quality dregs who are just arrow fodder to bolster the Frey numbers a bit.

So my assessment is that the Freys have raised 4000 proper troops, and maybe 500+ peasants with sharpened sticks.

I agree but what I was trying to say is, troop quality doesn't drop because a lord is left with low quality dregs he left as a reserve;

from what I understand, soldiers in westeros, unless "professional" (like sellswords, hedge knights, household knights) do not bring their own equipment. Quality drops as a result of(not counting the age and health of the available men left) a lord simply having no more equipment. A very good example of this is Ser Eustace Osgrey, he is not even able to equip 8 men levy with proper arms and armor, while Rohanne Webber is able to come up with a dozen horseman and some twenty mounted crossbow men from her garrison alone, not even raising her levy.

 

 

On ‎01‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 9:34 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

So what's your point? Are you aware of any new lands that were granted to the Freys before they started marching north?

Point is not that freys were given any new lands, they had more than 3000 men in their lands that they could have raised, but they didn't because of two things; he was trying to attain the most common army composition we see with Westerosi lords, 1:3 horse to foot  and even if he'd like to try some other composition like 1:5 as we see with marcher lords, he may not have been able to due to equipment shortages.

[Lord Varys]

50 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I agree but what I was trying to say is, troop quality doesn't drop because a lord is left with low quality dregs he left as a reserve;

from what I understand, soldiers in westeros, unless "professional" (like sellswords, hedge knights, household knights) do not bring their own equipment. Quality drops as a result of(not counting the age and health of the available men left) a lord simply having no more equipment. A very good example of this is Ser Eustace Osgrey, he is not even able to equip 8 men levy with proper arms and armor, while Rohanne Webber is able to come up with a dozen horseman and some twenty mounted crossbow men from her garrison alone, not even raising her levy.

That is a complex issue here. Lady Webber has a lot of money, actually. She breeds the finest horses in the Reach, supposedly. Ser Eustace basically has nothing. Lady Webber also doesn't exactly call her banners or raises all her levies - she just gathers the men that are already in her castle plus, perhaps, some more from the lands immediately around them. Osgrey prepared for 'war' for quite some time while the Red Widow had no need to do so because, you know, Osgrey never had a chance.

We know that making all your seven sons knights is a costly - even ruinous - affair for even a lord as great as Triston Sunderland who rules the Three Sisters. That means lords do indeed not equip all their household knights, etc., rather they have the coin to pay them enough to keep them in their service or they have tracts of lands and other incomes they can grant them so that those knights have the necessary funds to maintain their armor, horses, weapons, etc.

On a smaller scale, it should be the same with more common fighting men. Those men fighting for their lords must be in a position that allows them to leave their homes and actually contribute something to the war effort - either in provisions, horses, or other resources, or in their own persons as fighting men (or both).

The idea that a lord has armor, weapons, or even horses for hundreds and thousands of his men is just silly. That makes no sense.

Professional soldiers - like freeriders, men-at-arms, guardsmen, etc. - most likely lack land - and thus a fixed income - and thus work for coin (when they are in service of a lord who has money) or simply for the right to sleep in the lord's hall and eat from his table. But in the long run the later would only work in war since without the chance of plunder this whole thing is not going to end well for such men. If a lord can't equip you with horses, armor, weapons, etc. and if he cannot pay you enough so that you can do that your equipment is going to deteriorate in the service of the lord and when you leave his service you are ruined.

Just imagine what would have happened to Dunk if his horses had died and his sword had broken in the service of Ser Eustace. He would have been finished.