Frey civil war

[Ser Something]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't believe every last Frey will be wiped out. But the Twins will, and I think Rosslyn (and Edmure) will die too, for plot reasons, to open Riverrun up to a Stark heir.

But the Freys as a House will end. The plenty Frey descendants that remain, will become like those members of the Golden Company or Windblown etc. who reminisce over lost lands and titles. But they will not rule the Twins anymore. That part of their history will end.

Yes, that seems more plausible.

[Lion of the West]

A civil war seems unavoidable given that the heir closest in line would lack the strength to govern in the face of those Freys who might seek to rock the boat, like Black Walder. But then again if some Frey of strength, like a bastard duo between Lame Lothar and Walder Rivers takes over the place I can totally see them reining in the Freys and for there to be loss of life without an actual civil war. After all for there to be a war both sides must bring enough force to their side. And how it goes then is anybody's guess. Maybe Olyver will seek to protect his life and gain the Twins by running to Aegon or Daenerys or something like that which sends out Frey claimants to various powers across Westeros. To early to tell yet but I would be suprised if GRRM ended that whole plot with Stark revenge fantasies.

[Protagoras]

45 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Protagoras, would you be so kind as to explain to me why old man Walder has been set up as the troll with a toll?  I rooted for the billy goats not the troll. Maybe the troll felt unloved. Maybe the troll felt like an outcast, etc. I had no interest in the troll’s reason.

Okay, so maybe there should not be a Frey genocide as you named it. Morally & ethically wrong.  In this book Lannister, Frey and Bolton connived to murder at a celebration. Surely it can be said that those three families did what they needed to do in order to protect themselves.

Personally I think the Lannister’s, the Frey’s and the Bolton’s need to be held accountable for their underhanded dealings. Why do I think that? Because, in this book it is my preference. It has nothing to do with my real world moral or ethical outlook.

The OP was interesting.

 

 

 

You didn´t answer my question and since you seems to make a point that Frey genocide should been seen in the light of other acts then you are the one with some explaining to do.

Why then shouldn´t I be able to wish rape on a character? Since its just fictional and all? Why should certain things be allowed to said and some not? Certainly, if that is your standard it should be ok for me to say "Cersei has been horrible to people - I wish she got gang-raped". Yet, at this forum this can´t be said and is a bannable offence even I think. 

So, if you are of the position (are you?) that you can´t say "I wish character X to be raped" but you can say "Group X needs to be wiped out completely to the last child" YOU are the one with hypocritical issues and you can be certain that there is no way I will allow this so called "logic" to stand unopposed. Rape is not worse than genocide and if some think it is, I think those people are horrible monsters  and in no position to make up any kind of rules about acceptable topics. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 minute ago, Protagoras said:

snip

I'm not going to answer your question. The thread is interesting stick to the OP.

[Free Northman Reborn]

8 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

You didn´t answer my question and since you seems to make a point that Frey genocide should been seen in the light of other acts then you are the one with some explaining to do.

Why then shouldn´t I be able to wish rape on a character? Since its just fictional and all? Why should certain things be allowed to said and some not? Certainly, if that is your standard it should be ok for me to say "Cersei has been horrible to people - I wish she got gang-raped". Yet, at this forum this can´t be said and is a bannable offence even I think. 

So, if you are of the position (are you?) that you can´t say "I wish character X to be raped" but you can say "Group X needs to be wiped out completely to the last child" YOU are the one with hypocritical issues and you can be certain that there is no way I will allow this so called "logic" to stand unopposed. Rape is not worse than genocide and if some think it is, I think those people are horrible monsters  and in no position to make up any kind of rules about acceptable topics. 

Why are you asking him? He didn't make the rules. PM a Moderator with your grievance.

[Clegane'sPup]

The original post before the derail attempt.

 

22 hours ago, Ser Something said:

This isn't a 'theory' as such, but more of a "wouldn't it be cool if this happened" sort of thing.

Studying the extensive Frey family tree, the issue of Walder's heir is very interesting. At the start of the books it goes Walder senior > Stevron > Ryman > Edwyn, from father to son. Edwyn has no sons, so after him comes his brother, good old Black Walder Frey.

In the course of the books both Stevron and Ryman have died in somewhat suspicious circumstances, and Edwyn suspects his brother of being responsible for the latter at least. Now the heir to the twins, he seems to think his brother might be happy to see him die next. Now I'm sure many readers like me suspect Black Walder could be trying to kill off family members to inherit the Twins himself.

Stevron was wounded at the Battle of Oxcross, and then unexpectedly died a few days later. Easy to imagine Black Walder having a hand in that. Both of them were part of Robb's western army.

Ryman was supposedly hanged by outlaws on his way back to the Twins. Though personally I doubt Black Walder could have organised that (it would require working with the 'outlaw's, presumably the Brotherhood, or having quite a few accomplices himself who would know what he's up to. Presumably Ryman went with an armed escort who would need overpowering).... I'm sure he wouldn't take it as bad news.

Just to remind you - this is his father and grandfather we are talking about!

Ok, so what happens next?

-------

What if Walder Frey senior dies in the next book? It could easily happen, and I would like to see it happen for plot reasons. He is very old. He could easily drop down dead. With or without help from his great-grandson, it doesn't matter. As fun as the idea of him being ancient yet stubbornly clinging to life is, I think the 'what happens next' situation after his death is much more fun.

Suddenly Edwyn is Lord of the Crossing, and Black Walder is the heir.

Now what if Black Walder gets impatient ./ sloppy, and Edwyn suddenly dies under very suspicious circumstances. Black Walder claims the Twins, and this is where it gets interesting, because surely at that point his family will take note. Perhaps they will know he obviously killed his brother, and now think aloud that he may be responsible for the death of father, grandfather and great-grandfather. 

Enter Ser Hosteen! Hosteen Frey has been busy in the north hanging out with the Boltons. Let's say he and his Frey army returns south for whatever reason (either victorious or defeated, it does not matter). He comes to the Twins and finds Black Walder lording it up in the southern castle, He calls bullshit on his brother, and takes the northern castle. 

We now have a Frey civil war! Those in support of Black Walder on one side of the bridge, those who want him ousted on the other. If Black Walder was removed, who would be next in line?

Well, there is a Walton, who is Ryman's brother and Black Walder's uncle. There is also Emmon and his brood, but they are seemingly more interestred in being Lannisters than Freys. Ser Aenys is dead, one of his sons (Aegon) is an outlaw, and the other (Rhaegar) seems to have been baked in a pie. Rhaegar did leave two sons, Robert (thirteen) and Jonos (eight).

Next, from Walder senior's second marriage, we have Ser Jared, also now in a pie. He left a son (Tytos), who died at the Red Wedding, and a grandson (Zachery), who seems to be studying to be a Septon.

And next, by Walder senior's third wife, we have Ser Hosteen himself.

So with Black Walder removed, there would be a few claimants to the Twins. Walton would be the next logical choice, but strangely I can find no information at all about him! If we skip Emmon's family, and Aeny's surviving family (whom are children), Ser Hosteen seems like a very strong alternative.

-------

So the result would be a Frey civil war, focused around the Twins. I can just imagine both sides sallying forth to fight it out on the bridge! It would effectively remove House Frey from the power struggle of Westeros politics.

The kinslaying Black Walder versus Ser Hosteen, either in support of a younger claimant, the mysterious Walton Frey, or perhaps himself.

-------

I have no evidence that any of this will actually happen. But wouldn't that be cool?

I don't know if anyone here have any other Frey theories, or any other ideas of a Frey civil war.. I've only just now started reading this forum. I have heard one youtuber I follow off-handedly mention he believes there is going to be a Frey civil war, but I have no idea what he's basing that on, how he thinks it's going to pan out, and if it's anything like my idea.

I'd love to discuss House Frey some though, so if anyone has any theories or ideas of what could happen to them in the next two books, please share!

Some questions worth considering....

• Is Black Walder a kinslayer?
• How much of the current 'character' and reputation of House Frey is down to Walder himself?
• How was House Frey viewed pre-Walder?
• Does Walder keep the family unified? Would any other Lord fail to do so?
• What would House Frey look like post-Walder?
• Will Lord Walder kick the bucket soon?
• What's going to happen with House Frey next?

 

[Protagoras]

41 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Why are you asking him? He didn't make the rules. PM a Moderator with your grievance.

I have tried.

I am asking him (and you, and everyone else with this idea) because I am sick of this double standard and while I can´t change the rules I will make sure to pester people about their unfairness as often I am given the opportunity ie in these kinds of threads.

Have a problem with it? I couldn´t care less. I will let this opinion stand unopposed - seen in the light of other rules. Period.

47 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm not going to answer your question. The thread is interesting stick to the OP.

I wasn´t the one derailing. That honor goes to other posters who decided to discuss and advocate genocide instead of discussing a possible Frey civil war. I just followed suit - which makes me innocent (at least in my book). Besides - you yourself responded to me, continuing the derailment too. You have no right nor credibility to go with the "stick to the topic" schtick because of that.

I am not going to shut up as long as A: the same discussion contines or B: You fail to blame the right people for the derailment. Your tone and attitude towards this are horrible.

[Boarsbane]

I think it will be interesting to see who Lame Lothar sides with, I think it's clear he is the smartest of the Frey bunch and I believe he has been Walder's steward for the past decade so he knows how to run the house. I don't know who he'd side with between Black Walder and Edwyn,  but I'd lean towards Edwyn on account of Black Walder's short temper which could lead to more rash decisions. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

13 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I have tried.

I am asking him (and you, and everyone else with this idea) because I am sick of this double standard and while I can´t change the rules I will make sure to pester people about their unfairness as often I am given the opportunity ie in these kinds of threads.

Have a problem with it? I couldn´t care less. I will let this opinion stand unopposed - seen in the light of other rules. Period.

I wasn´t the one derailing. That honor goes to other posters who decided to discuss and advocate genocide instead of discussing a possible Frey civil war. I just followed suit - which makes me innocent (at least in my book). Besides - you yourself responded to me, continuing the derailment too. You have no right nor credibility to go with the "stick to the topic" schtick because of that.

I am not going to shut up as long as A: the same discussion contines or B: You fail to blame the right people for the derailment. Your tone and attitude towards this are horrible.

Must you irritate the rest of us with your personal crusade?

[Protagoras]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Must you irritate the rest of us with your personal crusade?

If you by irritate means that I will point out when people argue for genocide? Yes, I think I must.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

I find it offensive that you find me offensive, I shall have to pester you now!

[The Wolves]

21 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

I think it will be interesting to see who Lame Lothar sides with, I think it's clear he is the smartest of the Frey bunch and I believe he has been Walder's steward for the past decade so he knows how to run the house. I don't know who he'd side with between Black Walder and Edwyn,  but I'd lean towards Edwyn on account of Black Walder's short temper which could lead to more rash decisions. 

Is Black Walder a bastard? 

[Boarsbane]

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Is Black Walder a bastard? 

No he's the 2nd son of Ryman and younger brother of Edwyn

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't believe every last Frey will be wiped out. But the Twins will, and I think Rosslyn (and Edmure) will die too, for plot reasons, to open Riverrun up to a Stark heir.

But the Freys as a House will end. The plenty Frey descendants that remain, will become like those members of the Golden Company or Windblown etc. who reminisce over lost lands and titles. But they will not rule the Twins anymore. That part of their history will end.

I hope Edmure will make it, it's getting tiresome where the good people suffer and die. 

[Dolorous22]

I think it would be cool but I don't think they'll have the luxury of orchestrating one, if you know what I mean?
I think their herd will definitely be thinned with the sheer amount of enemies they've earned. LS, Nymeria, Bog Men, Northerners, Others and white walkers, and maybe Jon and his allies too. We could include Bran... Maybe the IB too to some degree. Stannis would definitely take exception. Sansa's in the Vale with LF. Part of me wouldn't be surprised if LF wanted to add Riverrun and the Twins to Harrenhal. 

Basically. I think way too many will die in quick succession in order for them to turn on each-other.  

Instead, they'll either be taken from the game completely will be whittled down to something smaller and less liable. 

I think Walder spread his seed far and wide enough for his legacy to survive a holocaust. 

[Clegane'sPup]

37 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I wasn´t the one derailing

You are. Else you would have spoken to the possible Frey civil war as mentioned in the OP.

In other words, the infighting that may or may not take place when old Walder Frey dies.

When old Walder dies there is going to be a Frey civil war much like what happened when Balon died.

I doubt the Frey's of the Crossing practice Kingsmoot.

Although the struggle for control is not actually a war there will be a fight for domination and leadership at the Twins.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You are. Else you would have spoken to the possible Frey civil war as mentioned in the OP.

In other words, the infighting that may or may not take place when old Walder Frey dies.

When old Walder dies there is going to be a Frey civil war much like what happened when Balon died.

I doubt the Frey's of the Crossing practice Kingsmoot.

Although the struggle for control is not actually a war there will be a fight for domination and leadership at the Twins.

I'd hardly call what happened at the Kingsmoot a civil war. Euron was crowned and the vast majority of the Ironborn accepted it.

[Clegane'sPup]

14 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I'd hardly call what happened at the Kingsmoot a civil war. Euron was crowned and the vast majority of the Ironborn accepted it.

I can agree with that. Would you agree that there was bickering (infighting) among the relatives for control even though no blood was shed?

Let's say old Wlader dies a natural death? Which one of the Frey's will take the old Walder's place? You are more knowledgeable about

the characters than I am.

I found the OP to be interesting. You might like it too.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I can agree with that. Would you agree that there was bickering (infighting) among the relatives for control even though no blood was shed?

Let's say old Wlader dies a natural death? Which one of the Frey's will take the old Walder's place? You are more knowledgeable about

the characters than I am.

I found the OP to be interesting. You might like it too.

There is a lot of possibilities.

Personally I'd hope it was Walton Frey. Third son of Stevron from and currently 10th in line. He has a Waynwood mother, he is married to a Hardyng has attractive children and he and his children, as far as we know, played no prominent part in the Red Wedding (or the series as a whole). Should Harry inherit the Vale he could have  support from him and the Waynwoods in securing the Twins.

 

If Edwyn was smart, the current heir, he would quickly marry his only child, Walda, to a powerful Lord or his son so he would have outside military support against Black Walder.

 

As intelligent as Lame Lothar is he can't hope to win it and with only young daughters can't offer a marriage alliance with Edwyn's daughter. It is possible that if Black Walder married one of his daughters and gained the support of Walder Rivers (one of the leaders of the Twins military) he could take control of the Twins.

However, as disappointing as this will be for some, it is not going to be the Rosby-Freys. There are just too many people before them and they don't seem to have prominent outside support

[Ser Something]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Personally I'd hope it was Walton Frey. Third son of Stevron from and currently 10th in line. He has a Waynwood mother, he is married to a Hardyng has attractive children and he and his children, as far as we know, played no prominent part in the Red Wedding (or the series as a whole). Should Harry inherit the Vale he could have  support from him and the Waynwoods in securing the Twins.

Yes Walton Frey is an interesting big question mark. How do you know he has attractive children? Is it just because they are apparently known as 'Steffon The Sweet' and 'Fair Walda'? Oh, and 'Bryan'.