Discussing Sansa XXIV: Forgetful North

[DamonDanceForMe]

13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Or just himself, with no shirt and silk pants again.  That one will never get old.  

You might think a genius such as himself would have outriders around trying to find the Stark...and them right there under his nose.  LOL.  But the plot demands that Empowered Sansa save the North, so there you go.  He will finally lose his Bond Villain status.

20 good writers. All we need is 20 good writers. Presumably shirtless

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, DamonDanceForMe said:

20 good writers. All we need is 20 good writers.

I would settle for just one good writer.  

[Maid So Fair]

On 09/06/2016 at 11:11 AM, Red Tiger said:

This is true

It aint just that he didnt pay the taxes, its that he also said he would never follow anyone but the Starks.

Well, look at it from this point. If you are a Northern lord and you hear that this is what Ramsay does to those who defy him, would you really want to risk your spouse or child's life knowing that fighting him could lead to such a fate? That was one of the reasons Robett Glover wouldnt fight for them.

This is just blatantly false. Lyanna and Robett both mention that this war would cost more lives. Yeah the name is one reason and the indifference to the crimes are definitely there (though even in the books, Wyman and Robett blame the Freys), but its just one of many reasons.

Well, if the Northern lords don't know anything but rumours about Ramsay, then they most certainly don't know the exact words Lord Cerwyn uttered. It goes both ways. Even if they did, why would they ever think this is a reasonable and proportional punishment? Considering they themselves were loyal to Starks not so long ago and clearly still harbour at least some vestigesof that loyalty, this should make them highly uncomfortable even if they have no intentions of rebelling.

It's exactly the reason to fight a psycho like Ramsay - he's unpredictable and violent. Best get rid of him before he turns on you. Also, Robetts wife and children are with the IB and at no point does he list fear of Ramsay as his reason. Gratitude to Ramsay, more like.

Of course the war would cost more lives. All wars do. But some things are worth fighting for and for some Northern lords this is evidently not one of them. It should be as it affects each and every one of them for years to come.

On 09/06/2016 at 11:18 AM, Red Tiger said:

Yeah, but there werent that many fights and the cannibalism was from soldiers who were already dead. Stannis did a pretty good job of keeping his men in line. "Half of my soldiers are non-believers, there will be no sacrifice, pray harder".

The Mountain Clans are said to be quite disciplined, also when Ned went to the Tower of Joy one of his companions was a Wull from the MOuntain clans, I doubt Ned would simply take a crazed wreckless brute with him to the TOJ.

Raid the camp? Ramsay's camp is the walls of Winterfell and there is no reason for him to leave them considering he has all the cards. This isnt like when Stannis was marching about 20,000 well-equipped soldiers with provisions. Ramsay knows that Jon aims to take back Winterfell (and so did Smalljon Umber, who told him) and thus he knows that all he has to do is wait until they come to him and then wipe them out.

Sure, it's not developed into an open conflict yet, but it shows the desperate aituation Stannis's army is truly in. They're fighting for their lives and they've yet to see a battle. Jon and Sansa seem to have no similar issues. There was one fight, but that has been it so far. They're far from being forced to act based on their army situation.

Fair enough about the Mountain clans. I always took them as being based loosely on the Scottish clans with not exactly what you'd call disciplined fighting style. I don't mean that they're some crazy brutes - just that I dont see them fighting in organised units.

 

Staying in WF would be the logical thing to do bit this is Ramsay of all people. He couldn't stay put waiting for Stannis, who he had no personal vendetta against. Hes reckless, impulsive and convinced of his own brilliance - it should be trivial to lure him out. He's also got the Umbers breathing down his neck to fight the wildlings so can hardly afford to ignore a direct challenge. 

I guess I finally want the fact that the Starks are, well, Starks make a positive contribution to the plot.

[Maid So Fair]

On 10/06/2016 at 6:17 AM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Well, Jon did intend to go "somewhere warm" instead of staying to fight wights with his brothers; though that could have been before Sansa arrived - if so, he needed her to persuade him to fight Boltons to regain Winterfell for the Starks.  He seems to have lost much of his determination and sense of purpose.  

Je also didn't seem too keen on doing again. But the thing is that if he's so far gone as not to care about the fate of his brother ans sister, not to mention his own, Im struggling to come up with a future scenario where he would give a shit about anything. It makes for a very boring character.

On 10/06/2016 at 7:14 AM, Mikeygigs said:

Until another house falls into his lap.

Though, it is possible that the Umbers are playing Ramsay for the Starks, if they are its one of the stupidest ploys in history, and if they did actually kill Shaggydog, they're pretty much as good as dead (though, if Rickon survives - doubtful - the plot will likely not mention it).

There are major issues with the adaptation in general, but I am more disappointed in the poor execution of the story. There are so many plotholes, leaps of logic and nonsense in the Northern story this year.

I still cannot get over why Sansa did not just kill Littlefinger in Episode 3(?). Okay, hate Littlefinger and don't want his help? Fine. Kill him and tell Sweetrobin that the Boltons did it. You have your army and a way back home without having to beg the Northern houses -- they will come to you and beg, instead.

Instead, Littlefinger walks away, manipulates Sansa on his way out, and will likely get what he wants in the end, anyway.

The whole arc, from start to finish, has been about facilitating the oh-so-shocking moment when Littlefinger rides into the rescue along with the Knights of the Vale, and that is bad writing.

Well, why would other houses join him? His winning personality? Even if that happens, the Starks are already facing pretty bad odds.

I agree with the rest. The story has been twisted in every way possible to get to the big battle saved by LF's Vale troops plot point - it means that Jon and Sansa need to look like incompetent morons unable to do anything right on their own. Especially Sansa's character is suffering - she let LF live because reasons, she gets berated for being sold to Ramsay, her perfectly valid points are shot down because she's not allowed to win without LF and we need to wrap this up for the big battle and now she's reduced to begging LF for support he offered freely before. It's maddening. 

[Red Tiger]

14 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

I guess I finally want the fact that the Starks are, well, Starks make a positive contribution to the plot.

I understand, but a fundamental problem here is that I think you and I are putting more thought into this conflict than D&D did.

[Maid So Fair]

On 12/06/2016 at 11:23 AM, Red Tiger said:

I understand, but a fundamental problem here is that I think you and I are putting more thought into this conflict than D&D did.

Oh without a doubt. I think at this point expecting a clever plot is setting yourself up for a disappointment. The worst thing is that all of this is the result of the idiotic S5 Northern storyline, which continues to weight down any attempt to rise above it like an anchor and - to bring this back on topic - whatever Sansa does, however hard she tries and no matter how sensible her points, she comes across like a moron because the plot demands it.

[Red Tiger]

13 hours ago, Maid So Fair said:

Oh without a doubt. I think at this point expecting a clever plot is setting yourself up for a disappointment. The worst thing is that all of this is the result of the idiotic S5 Northern storyline, which continues to weight down any attempt to rise above it like an anchor and - to bring this back on topic - whatever Sansa does, however hard she tries and no matter how sensible her points, she comes across like a moron because the plot demands it.

I dont understand why they brought up House Manderly so many times, they had time to have the epic Wyman Manderly speech and having him join Jon, it would have been PERFECT.

[Maid So Fair]

31 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

I dont understand why they brought up House Manderly so many times, they had time to have the epic Wyman Manderly speech and having him join Jon, it would have been PERFECT.

Because then they wouldn't need to be saved by LF 

i keep hoping that he'll show up at the first light on te third day like a fat Gandalf and deliver his speech with a sermon of Frey pie after their glorious victory but I know that's just wishful thinking.

Whats even more baffling is that regardless of which route Brienne took to RR she could have easily passed through the White Harbour or Moat Cailin or BOTH, giving her the perfect opportunity to recruit the Manderlys and or the Vale knights for Sansa, bypassing LF.

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, Maid So Fair said:

Because then they wouldn't need to be saved by LF 

i keep hoping that he'll show up at the first light on te third day like a fat Gandalf and deliver his speech with a sermon of Frey pie after their glorious victory but I know that's just wishful thinking.

Whats even more baffling is that regardless of which route Brienne took to RR she could have easily passed through the White Harbour or Moat Cailin or BOTH, giving her the perfect opportunity to recruit the Manderlys and or the Vale knights for Sansa, bypassing LF.

Speaking of Frey pies, you think Jaime will poison Walder Frey and his ilk or something like that? It might be his way of fulfilling his oath to Cat. Wishful thinking, I know.

[Maid So Fair]

12 minutes ago, Red Tiger said:

Speaking of Frey pies, you think Jaime will poison Walder Frey and his ilk or something like that? It might be his way of fulfilling his oath to Cat. Wishful thinking, I know.

Well if the newest spoilers are true 

Spoiler

Arya might do something like that.

Unfortunately I think that Larry is done with the RL plot and is heading back to Cersei. It could change but then they wasted a prime opportunity to send him on this path with Brienne showing up for the RR siege. IDK

[gotviewer]

Regarding Sansa not killing LF.  Sansa is not a killer or someone who orders kills.  At least not if there is some doubt.  (Ramsay may be another story.)  Living well and far apart from LF is the best revenge and all that would be her preferred motto.

Regarding not telling Jon and Davos.  Including them in her decisionmaking puts her in a difficult position if she does not agree with their decision.  She decided I am going to look to the North for an Army because accepting help from LF always has a price.  I disagree that LF would consider retaking Winterfell a recompense.  He is a user-always.  She also bets that his help will remain available at some price. 

She has not seen Jon in years and knows nothing about Davos.  If she mentioned the Vale Army and they said yes and then LF or Robin said-one of us marries Sansa after Ramsay dead.  Would Davos and Jon make the deal to save Rickon?  Would Sansa?  Does Sansa come from a family/time where political marriages were common and often used to cement wartime alliances?  Yes.  Think Cat and the Freys.

A lot might think that Jon would not.  I am not so sure.  I think Jon is like Ned who tried to live honorably but also had to make some hard choices sometimes (perhaps the promise to Lyanna went partially unfulfilled).  Was it honorable to only promise to tell Jon his parentage after he took the NIght Watch oath?  If Joffrey B. had been a "good" prince would Ned have let Robert's succession/will language alone?  (I think Ned altered the wording slightly to remove Joffrey.)