Discussing Sansa XXIV: Forgetful North

[Red Tiger]

8 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

There's tension in Stannis's army as well, possibly more than any lack of disciple of the wildlings - his men are down to cannibalism and there's palpable tension between the Northerners and the followers of R'hllor. I'm also not sure how different the mountain clans are to the wildlings when it comes to organised fighting. They kind of sound like the lite version.

Yeah, but there werent that many fights and the cannibalism was from soldiers who were already dead. Stannis did a pretty good job of keeping his men in line. "Half of my soldiers are non-believers, there will be no sacrifice, pray harder".

The Mountain Clans are said to be quite disciplined, also when Ned went to the Tower of Joy one of his companions was a Wull from the MOuntain clans, I doubt Ned would simply take a crazed wreckless brute with him to the TOJ.

8 minutes ago, Maid So Fair said:

 

The thing is that Jon seems to have no real plan and he's certainly not using the troops he has to his advantage. Him and Sansa grew up around WF - they should know exactly where to strike/pick a defensive position. Also, the wildlings might not be disciplined, but what they are is professional raiders. What he's got is 2000 good men - why not use them to raid Ramsay's camp?

Raid the camp? Ramsay's camp is the walls of Winterfell and there is no reason for him to leave them considering he has all the cards. This isnt like when Stannis was marching about 20,000 well-equipped soldiers with provisions. Ramsay knows that Jon aims to take back Winterfell (and so did Smalljon Umber, who told him) and thus he knows that all he has to do is wait until they come to him and then wipe them out.

[Random Roberto]

Maybe the reason Jon is on a hurry to attack is that he doesn't have enough provisions to feed an army for a long time.

The thing is, in the show, the Boltons must have the biggest army in the North and the other houses are afraid of them. That's the only way to explain the northern houses behaviour of betraying the Starks.

We have to assume that since in the show they don't have enough time to deepen the plots they are always as simple as it is possible to be.

Boltons have the biggest army -> no one wants to risk enrage them -> Sansa will need help from the knights of the Vale.

I don't even think that this is bad writing, it's just a shame that it is impossible to adapt the complex plots of ASOIAF in a TV show.

The only thing I am mad at in this plot line is Sansa keeping secrets from Jon for no reason, as far as I can tell

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, Random Roberto said:

Maybe the reason Jon is on a hurry to attack is that he doesn't have enough provisions to feed an army for a long time.

The thing is, in the show, the Boltons must have the biggest army in the North and the other houses are afraid of them. That's the only way to explain the northern houses behaviour of betraying the Starks.

We have to assume that since in the show they don't have enough time to deepen the plots they are always as simple as it is possible to be.

Boltons have the biggest army -> no one wants to risk enrage them -> Sansa will need help from the knights of the Vale.

I don't even think that this is bad writing, it's just a shame that it is impossible to adapt the complex plots of ASOIAF in a TV show.

The only thing I am mad at in this plot line is Sansa keeping secrets from Jon for no reason, as far as I can tell

Yeah the fewer provisions did cross my mind. D&d should have brought it up though.

[Tagganaro]

3 hours ago, Random Roberto said:

Maybe the reason Jon is on a hurry to attack is that he doesn't have enough provisions to feed an army for a long time.

The thing is, in the show, the Boltons must have the biggest army in the North and the other houses are afraid of them. That's the only way to explain the northern houses behaviour of betraying the Starks.

We have to assume that since in the show they don't have enough time to deepen the plots they are always as simple as it is possible to be.

Boltons have the biggest army -> no one wants to risk enrage them -> Sansa will need help from the knights of the Vale.

I don't even think that this is bad writing, it's just a shame that it is impossible to adapt the complex plots of ASOIAF in a TV show.

The only thing I am mad at in this plot line is Sansa keeping secrets from Jon for no reason, as far as I can tell

I think Jon's in a hurry to attack to try and save Rickon.  Not sure why Rickon hasn't really been mentioned though.  It's sort of reminiscent to the books in that it's not clear what Jon intends to accomplish and he's acting emotionally.  It seems to me that the showrunners have gotten kind of sensitive to the criticism about Ramsay and don't really want to explore Ramsay and Rickon interactions or reminding viewers that Rickon is there.  

[Tagganaro]

19 hours ago, Steelegrave said:

So horrible writing.

19 hours ago, Solstice said:

I agree with you. There was no rational reason why she turned down the vale army. Even if they were lucky and get all the support from the houses they need, both armies would have approximately the same amount of men and a lot of people would die in the fight. Why would she risk that?

It doesnt make sense. 

They wrote it this way to give LF a redemption arc. This is not about Sansa, it is only about LF and his moment as savior in EP 9.

I think "horrible writing" is unfair.  This isn't Dorne or Yara being scared off of saving Theon by a shirtless Ramsay and 3 dogs.  It's clunky and awkward, but I also respect how difficult of a task this is for the showrunners to try and adapt all this material, service all these characters, and lead to the desired endpoint (which is clearly 2 episodes from now the Battle of the Bastards which they've been hyping up all year).  Davos is a major fan favorite and they wanted him to have his moment to shine with Lyanna Mormont.  As a result, they sort of had to underserve Jon and Sansa there.  I can respect that.  Liam Cunningham consistently kills it acting-wise and his speech was no different.  I thought that was a really well done moment.

As for Sansa/LF, I believe LF personally believes he's on a redemption arc.  The actor has referenced that in interviews that he thinks LF genuinely feels bad about what happened to Sansa.  I don't believe the show will ever really allow him to be redeemed though.  I believe the main purpose of this arc is to allow the Vale to ride in and save the day so Sansa can have her moment.  Again, I can respect that.  I think Jon will get the final moment when he goes 1 on 1 with Ramsay and likely kills him.

As for "rationality", I don't think that really comes into Sansa's characterization there.  She's the opposite of that, she is emotional and angry about LF putting her in that position.  "He's either an idiot or her enemy" etc...I think it is/was rational from a character perspective for Sansa to make an emotional decision to turn down LF there.  She does not want his help nor does she trust him.  But now, she's been forced to rethink her stance as the situation becomes desperate.  Personally, I think that is entirely rational character-wise.   

 

 

[JazzyButterfly]

Although I really enjoyed the scenes in the North for what they presented, I didn't initially understand the logic of having the Northern houses reject Team Stark. I think that the purpose was to create drama and desperation needed for Sansa to write Little Finger for support from the Vale army. So these scenes were plot driven at the expense of Sansa and Jon as character's. I was disappointed because these scenes portrayed Jon and Sansa as inept.

Why did the Bolton's need Sansa as the key to the North if the North doesn't value the Stark name? We keep hearing that the north remembers but the north forgot. How did the North forget Roose Bolton's betrayal that cost thousands of north men their lives. Robb made two huge mistakes in marrying Talisa and beheading Lord Karstark but he was an effective leader and strategist as well. Blaming Robb for the slaughter at the Red Wedding is the same as blaming a rape victim for being raped because she passed out drunk at a party. Doing something stupid doesn't mean you are to blame when you are victimized. 

 

Quote

I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home."

Wyman Manderley

[watcher of the night]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

I think "horrible writing" is unfair.  This isn't Dorne or Yara being scared off of saving Theon by a shirtless Ramsay and 3 dogs.  It's clunky and awkward, but I also respect how difficult of a task this is for the showrunners to try and adapt all this material, service all these characters, and lead to the desired endpoint (which is clearly 2 episodes from now the Battle of the Bastards which they've been hyping up all year).  Davos is a major fan favorite and they wanted him to have his moment to shine with Lyanna Mormont.  As a result, they sort of had to underserve Jon and Sansa there.  I can respect that.  Liam Cunningham consistently kills it acting-wise and his speech was no different.  I thought that was a really well done moment.

 

Cmon that is a weak excuse. If they are not upto the task they should ask professional writers. The problem is that there is no coherent storyline, they are moving from plot twist to plot twist. On top of that, character actions and motivations are guided by future plot twists, with each coming plot twist characters get new personalities and motivations.

[Steelegrave]

9 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I think "horrible writing" is unfair.  This isn't Dorne or Yara being scared off of saving Theon by a shirtless Ramsay and 3 dogs.  It's clunky and awkward, but I also respect how difficult of a task this is for the showrunners to try and adapt all this material, service all these characters, and lead to the desired endpoint (which is clearly 2 episodes from now the Battle of the Bastards which they've been hyping up all year).  Davos is a major fan favorite and they wanted him to have his moment to shine with Lyanna Mormont.  As a result, they sort of had to underserve Jon and Sansa there.  I can respect that.  Liam Cunningham consistently kills it acting-wise and his speech was no different.  I thought that was a really well done moment.

As for Sansa/LF, I believe LF personally believes he's on a redemption arc.  The actor has referenced that in interviews that he thinks LF genuinely feels bad about what happened to Sansa.  I don't believe the show will ever really allow him to be redeemed though.  I believe the main purpose of this arc is to allow the Vale to ride in and save the day so Sansa can have her moment.  Again, I can respect that.  I think Jon will get the final moment when he goes 1 on 1 with Ramsay and likely kills him.

As for "rationality", I don't think that really comes into Sansa's characterization there.  She's the opposite of that, she is emotional and angry about LF putting her in that position.  "He's either an idiot or her enemy" etc...I think it is/was rational from a character perspective for Sansa to make an emotional decision to turn down LF there.  She does not want his help nor does she trust him.  But now, she's been forced to rethink her stance as the situation becomes desperate.  Personally, I think that is entirely rational character-wise.   

 

 

You think horrible writing is unfair but give examples of their horrible writing.  When I say horrible writing I'm not referring specifically to one scene (as I stated before).  They can't write this great story.  If I had the opportunity to read this script before it was filmed I, not a professional writer, could've written it better than these morons. The horrible writing they have done without GRRMs outline is garbage and has lead them to have to make irrational, illogical leaps in plot to get where they're going.  They've written themselves into so many ridiculous corners, so to get out them they have to write trash.  Which is all they can write, junk. 

[Raksha 2014]

On 6/8/2016 at 6:14 PM, Maid So Fair said:

So he doesn't give two shits about anything or anybody - not the zombie  apocalypse, not his brothers in the NW, not his family, not the innocent people of the North being abused by Ramsay and threatened by the invasion of the undead, nothing. He has no desires, no motivation and no will - he might as well be dead. Yet when he finds out that his mum boned a Targ this will change everything? Sure. 

 

Well, Jon did intend to go "somewhere warm" instead of staying to fight wights with his brothers; though that could have been before Sansa arrived - if so, he needed her to persuade him to fight Boltons to regain Winterfell for the Starks.  He seems to have lost much of his determination and sense of purpose.  

[Mikeygigs]

On 6/8/2016 at 6:42 AM, Maid So Fair said:

Ramsays support is unlikely to grow while Jon and Sans still have untapped potential.

Until another house falls into his lap.

Though, it is possible that the Umbers are playing Ramsay for the Starks, if they are its one of the stupidest ploys in history, and if they did actually kill Shaggydog, they're pretty much as good as dead (though, if Rickon survives - doubtful - the plot will likely not mention it).

There are major issues with the adaptation in general, but I am more disappointed in the poor execution of the story. There are so many plotholes, leaps of logic and nonsense in the Northern story this year.

I still cannot get over why Sansa did not just kill Littlefinger in Episode 3(?). Okay, hate Littlefinger and don't want his help? Fine. Kill him and tell Sweetrobin that the Boltons did it. You have your army and a way back home without having to beg the Northern houses -- they will come to you and beg, instead.

Instead, Littlefinger walks away, manipulates Sansa on his way out, and will likely get what he wants in the end, anyway.

The whole arc, from start to finish, has been about facilitating the oh-so-shocking moment when Littlefinger rides into the rescue along with the Knights of the Vale, and that is bad writing.

[Mikeygigs]

On 6/9/2016 at 2:07 PM, Red Tiger said:

Im sorry, but you are letting idealism get in the way of reality here.

And you are letting the overbearing cynicism of the show affect your view of what this universe actually is.

The Manderly's, the Glovers, the Mormonts, the mountain clans, and the Umbers are Stark men in the books. That is the reality of the books - the story that this show is trying to adapt.

Both the books and the show has the same major plot points: the War of the 5 Kings, the Red Wedding, the Boltons marrying a Stark to Ramsay. For the Starks, Stannis has already rallied many Stark supporters and he started out with fewer men than the Freys and Boltons. No one cried to him about losses -- Ned's little girl was in need, and the Mountain clans rode out in force to save her.

This has got to be one of the biggest reasons why I hate the show. GRRM's universe is pretty idealistic in moral philosophy, despite the realistic setting. The show gets this completely wrong, and instead embraces cynicism.

[Red Tiger]

2 hours ago, Mikeygigs said:

And you are letting the overbearing cynicism of the show affect your view of what this universe actually is.

The Manderly's, the Glovers, the Mormonts, the mountain clans, and the Umbers are Stark men in the books. That is the reality of the books - the story that this show is trying to adapt.

Both the books and the show has the same major plot points: the War of the 5 Kings, the Red Wedding, the Boltons marrying a Stark to Ramsay. For the Starks, Stannis has already rallied many Stark supporters and he started out with fewer men than the Freys and Boltons. No one cried to him about losses -- Ned's little girl was in need, and the Mountain clans rode out in force to save her.

This has got to be one of the biggest reasons why I hate the show. GRRM's universe is pretty idealistic in moral philosophy, despite the realistic setting. The show gets this completely wrong, and instead embraces cynicism.

No shit sherlock, I am aware of what they are in the books, we are not discussing the books.

Anyway, I tire of talking about this, im moving on.

[Darksky]

19 hours ago, Steelegrave said:

The horrible writing they have done without GRRMs outline is garbage and has lead them to have to make irrational, illogical leaps in plot to get where they're going.  They've written themselves into so many ridiculous corners, so to get out them they have to write trash.  Which is all they can write, junk. 

Thank God they don't have TWOW and ADOS, given what a pile of garbage Dance and Feast were. Martin lost it after the third book, and there's little chance to untangle the mess he created in any satisfactory way. It'll be interesting when TWOW turns out to be as shit as the last two books. (if it ever comes out, which I doubt) after such a long wait.

[Darksky]

Thought it was obvious what the main reason for Jon being in a hurry was. Ramsay has Rickon. The longer they stall, the less chance of surviving he has. Each day he could be tortured. They can't afford to stroll around North for months.,

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Darksky said:

Thought it was obvious what the main reason for Jon being in a hurry was. Ramsay has Rickon. The longer they stall, the less chance of surviving he has. Each day he could be tortured. They can't afford to stroll around North for months.,

It's funny, how they forgot to mention that to Baby Mormont, who was looking for a "Stark" to follow...LOL.

But, I'm not sure why attacking quickly is supposed to help Rickon.  An overwhelming show of force seems more likely to keep Rickon alive, who of course if the plot didn't demand he be alive until whatever, would already be dead along with the Smalljon, LOL.

How exactly does a suicide mission help Rickon?  Right:  it doesn't.  But the plot demands a suicide mission so that LF and Sansa can save the dumb zombie from his own bad judgment.  No Starks left to root for in the show except Arya, the rest of them are dumb losers.

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

Thought it was obvious what the main reason for Jon being in a hurry was. Ramsay has Rickon. The longer they stall, the less chance of surviving he has. Each day he could be tortured. They can't afford to stroll around North for months.,

That's not true, if he wants Rickon alive, he will keep him alive. The chances of this going Theon/Reek route are however indeed high.

7 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Thank God they don't have TWOW and ADOS, given what a pile of garbage Dance and Feast were. Martin lost it after the third book, and there's little chance to untangle the mess he created in any satisfactory way. It'll be interesting when TWOW turns out to be as shit as the last two books. (if it ever comes out, which I doubt) after such a long wait.

Well, the show is where D&D are given the chance to improve Martin's 'shit', or create something good on their own, and the results aren't spectacular thus far.

[Darksky]

Rickon is a bait. The longer Jon stays away, the more fed up Ramsay will be. Rickon will start losing his value soon enough.

I disagree on the results. This season has been shaping up to be the best one yet, but everyone thinks whatever they want. It's all subjective and it's fine as long as extreme bias doesn't colour the thoughts.

[Tianzi]

My take is that if Theon survived, then Rickon will survive as well (albeit in what state it's discussable). Objectively his value stays the same, and he might be an asset in the future, even if using him will fail to lure Jon. I agree Ramsay's nature is a problem, but then again, even he had to be prepared for a long wait, since travelling the North should apparently take months (lol), and the news Jon is travelling with an army should reach him soon.

Well, good thing that phrases like 'garbage', 'shit' or 'mess' don't count as extreme bias then

[kissdbyfire]

14 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It's funny, how they forgot to mention that to Baby Mormont, who was looking for a "Stark" to follow...LOL.

But, I'm not sure why attacking quickly is supposed to help Rickon.  An overwhelming show of force seems more likely to keep Rickon alive, who of course if the plot didn't demand he be alive until whatever, would already be dead along with the Smalljon, LOL.

How exactly does a suicide mission help Rickon?  Right:  it doesn't.  But the plot demands a suicide mission so that LF and Sansa can save the dumb zombie from his own bad judgment.  No Starks left to root for in the show except Arya, the rest of them are dumb losers.

So true. I do wonder though, why Ramsay and his 20 Good Men don't attack Stannis camp again? There's only 3 or 4 people there, so in this instance he may need just 5 Good Men. 

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So true. I do wonder though, why Ramsay and his 20 Good Men don't attack Stannis camp again? There's only 3 or 4 people there, so in this instance he may need just 5 Good Men. 

Or just himself, with no shirt and silk pants again.  That one will never get old.  

You might think a genius such as himself would have outriders around trying to find the Stark...and them right there under his nose.  LOL.  But the plot demands that Empowered Sansa save the North, so there you go.  He will finally lose his Bond Villain status.