Discussing Sansa XXIV: Forgetful North

[Ice Turtle]

1 minute ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I gave you my opinion on this point, you have yours, you insist that it's a betrayal, ok

don't tell that jon cares about Rickon, he didn't want to go to war for his family and home in the first place, when Sansa insisted he accepted, she said to him 'if you don't go with me, I'll go alone', she didn't give a shit if Jon will be her ally or not, you speaking like it's jon is person who wanted this war for his family and WInterfell

Yes I claim that Jon cares about Rickon, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Whatever Jon wanted the war or not, he is part of it and Sansa is treating him like a questionable ally rather than a close family.

[Future Null Infinity]

4 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

Whatever Jon wanted the war or not, he is part of it and Sansa is treating him like a questionable ally rather than a close family.

I don't give a damn about Sansa lying to Jon, if her actions will make them win the war and don't let Jon, Davos, 2000 wildlings and the 62 mormonts die then I'm with Sansa, Jon will understand and it's not like the end of the world

[Ice Turtle]

2 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

 Jon will understand

That is your assumption. I can't know for sure now, but IMHO is more likely he won't be OK with it.

[IrisBest]

18 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

Me biggest issue is not with Sansa rejecting LF, but with not telling Jon about it if she wants to play happy family.

 

This is a bit unfair to Sansa though because as this last episode shows, she's calling on LF because she and Jon don't have enough men after all and are doomed to fail. So back when she omitted this information from Jon she wasn't trying to keep a secret army in her back pocket to potentially use against Jon or whatever she was just averse to the idea of relying on LF when she thought she didn't have to (since she believed the Northern houses would come through for her). And she didn't know how Jon would react to the news that she'd turned away a whole army before so thought it best to keep him out of it.

[Future Null Infinity]

Just now, Ice Turtle said:

That is your assumption. I can't know for sure now, but IMHO is more likely he won't be OK with it.

then he's free to kill Sansa

[King Perkis]

Sansa seems to show distrust with most of Jon's decisions.  She questions Davos. She is sarcastic about Davos bringing the 62 Mormonts. And now with Jon's speech that we must attack now with what we have (which by the way are the showrunners just trying to paint the picture of Jon resembling Stannis and therefore the same result will occur: same encampment, men are at odds (instead of struggling in snow or pissed about sacrifices they are struggling with wildlings alongside Northerners), its an all or nothing campaign, jon's speech of attacking now resembles Stannis's, "we move forward or die, there is no going backwards.").  This resemblance to Stannis will in turn make the Vale that much more of a surprise when they appear. In my opinion, Sansa acts like she is the big kid at the table but doesn't give any actual advice that is worthwhile, she just says obvious things.  I mean last episode instead of letting Jon walk off to break up the fight she should have pulled him to the side and been like we have another option. 

[Future Null Infinity]

2 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

That is your assumption. I can't know for sure now, but IMHO is more likely he won't be OK with it.

and this a question for you and try to be logical: LF came with the knights of the vale, he helped them winning the war, and then Jon discover that Sansa called baelish without telling him, what he will do? 

[Ice Turtle]

8 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

This is a bit unfair to Sansa though because as this last episode shows, she's calling on LF because she and Jon don't have enough men after all and are doomed to fail. So back when she omitted this information from Jon she wasn't trying to keep a secret army in her back pocket to potentially use against Jon or whatever she was just averse to the idea of relying on LF when she thought she didn't have to (since she believed the Northern houses would come through for her). And she didn't know how Jon would react to the news that she'd turned away a whole army before so thought it best to keep him out of it.

But the conclusion of this is always the same, she doesn't trust him.

[Ice Turtle]

6 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

and this a question for you and try to be logical: LF came with the knights of the vale, he helped them winning the war, and then Jon discover that Sansa called baelish without telling him, what he will do? 

Likely try to utilize them in the fight against the Others, or return to the Wall and sulk, or only sulk (would be still consistent with his show character) but he would never trust Sansa much again.

[IrisBest]

8 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

But the conclusion of this is always the same, she doesn't trust him.

And after her experiences, her being unable to fully trust anyone is more than understandable. And again it's not about not trusting Jon to not screw her over or her thinking she'll need to fight with him over control of WF later or whatever, it was about being unsure if he'd insist on using the Vale army and LF's help when she didn't want to have anything to do with LF again. Once Jon understands her motives he will most likely forgive this (since he's not an a**hole).

At any rate the battle is going end with (spoilers)

Spoiler

Jon almost beating Ramsay to death in the WF courtyard and only stopping because Sansa arrives and he doesn't want her to see him like that, which suggests he's looking out for her emotional needs and they're on perfectly good terms by the finale. The Vale/LF issue is just gonna be something that tests them and after they talk it out they emerge stronger and more unified. 

 

[DamonDanceForMe]

On 6/6/2016 at 10:30 PM, Florina Laufeyson said:

Holy shit, and 62 Mormont men?

that is more than three times what ramsey needed to take out stannis' army....if only they were shirtless.

[Ice Turtle]

17 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

And after her experiences, her being unable to fully trust anyone is more than understandable. And again it's not about not trusting Jon to not screw her over or her thinking she'll need to fight with him over control of WF later or whatever, it was about being unsure if he'd insist on using the Vale army and LF's help when she didn't want to have anything to do with LF again. Once Jon understands her motives he will most likely forgive this (since he's not an a**hole).

At any rate the battle is going end with (spoilers)

  Hide contents

Jon almost beating Ramsay to death in the WF courtyard and only stopping because Sansa arrives and he doesn't want her to see him like that, which suggests he's looking out for her emotional needs and they're on perfectly good terms by the finale. The Vale/LF issue is just gonna be something that tests them and after they talk it out they emerge stronger and more unified. 

 

I don't want to go into this type of spoilers much, I hold to some hope that this is not true.

[Future Null Infinity]

16 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

Likely try to utilize them in the fight against the Others, or return to the Wall and sulk, or only sulk (would be still consistent with his show character) but he would never trust Sansa much again.

'he will never trust her', you are really making a very big deal from it, we shall see in ep 9 or 10

[Future Null Infinity]

9 minutes ago, DamonDanceForMe said:

that is more than three times what ramsey needed to take out stannis' army....if only they were shirtless.

if lyanna mormont get 3 dragons, Game of Thrones will end in one season

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Ice Turtle said:

For whatever reason Sansa is withholding crucial information from Jon, who will plan and execute their battle with Ramsay. If she told him as soon as she knew Jon would have likely came with a different plan. She is actively hurting their own case, if anything goes wrong it will be partially her own fault. And as Rickon is likely the only character whose death would affect both Jon and Sansa and he is an expendable character, he is a very likely causality of coming big important clash.

I honestly see no point here. OK, she is hurting their cause, but how is that relevant to Rickon? Would saying to Jon about knights magically free Rickon? Would it make him safer? No. Ramsay has him either way. 

47 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

Sansa lying to Jon in that situation is a betrayal. If Sansa want Jon to be her ally and more importantly for them to be a family she has to make Jon participate in the important decisions which concerns him instead of going behind his back.

I understand that it is not the best move, but betrayal? People are rather loose with this term when it comes to Sansa. First, there is no malicious intent here. We do see Sansa supporting Jon and that the lie is not out of some ambition to become QitN or something else. We see that she is ready to call them since the plan A obviously didn't work out. Not to mention that even she was confused regarding the reasons why she lied to him. 

46 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

Me biggest issue is not with Sansa rejecting LF, but with not telling Jon about it if she wants to play happy family.

She is not playing happy family. She is very much interested and invested in saving their brother and returning that home. She is not playing, she is ready to die for it.

43 minutes ago, nothatso said:

Jon refused to go before either he or Sansa knew that Ramsey had Rickon. He did not refuse at any point after learning about it. He just looked hesitant.

Sansa needed to push him rather hard. So, I would say he looked VERY hesitant.

29 minutes ago, Soccer69 said:

Sansa seems to show distrust with most of Jon's decisions.  She questions Davos. She is sarcastic about Davos bringing the 62 Mormonts. And now with Jon's speech that we must attack now with what we have (which by the way are the showrunners just trying to paint the picture of Jon resembling Stannis and therefore the same result will occur: same encampment, men are at odds (instead of struggling in snow or pissed about sacrifices they are struggling with wildlings alongside Northerners), its an all or nothing campaign, jon's speech of attacking now resembles Stannis's, "we move forward or die, there is no going backwards.").  This resemblance to Stannis will in turn make the Vale that much more of a surprise when they appear. In my opinion, Sansa acts like she is the big kid at the table but doesn't give any actual advice that is worthwhile, she just says obvious things.  I mean last episode instead of letting Jon walk off to break up the fight she should have pulled him to the side and been like we have another option. 

Well, it is good to question each other. From Sansa's perspective, it is only natural. Even Brienne was questioning Davos and his role in Ramsay's murder and Stannis' fall. She is not questioning Davos for the sake of questioning, she is doing that because there are reasons to mistrust him (from her perspective). Not to say that Jon is looking rather inefficient. Actually, they both were. 

 

28 minutes ago, Ice Turtle said:

But the conclusion of this is always the same, she doesn't trust him.

That hasn't been established. She has some reservations but what is their origin is not rather clear. This is nothing more than assumption.

 

[DamonDanceForMe]

On 6/6/2016 at 10:30 PM, Florina Laufeyson said:

 

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

if lyanna mormont get 3 dragons, Game of Thrones will end in one season

Then I wish Lyanna Mormont did get 3 dragons and GoT did end in one season. This abysmal writing would finally be at an end.

[Ice Turtle]

Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

'he will never trust her', you are really making a very big deal from it, we shall see in ep 9 or 10

It's hard to tell from the structure of your question, but I assumed that you asked me what would Jon logically do. With plots like Dorne it's not the same as asking what will he do in the show. shrug.

[Future Null Infinity]

1 minute ago, DamonDanceForMe said:

Then I wish Lyanna Mormont did get 3 dragons and GoT did end in one season. This abysmal writing would finally be at an end.

yes, 3 dragons and 62 good men, she will end the WW in half on an episode

[permaximum]

What I'm going to say is only my guess. IT IS NOT A SPOILER! I can't be blamed if I predict very accurately

LF and the Vale save Sansa, Jon and his army from total defeat. Jon beats Ramsay pretty bad but imprisons him on Sansa's wishes.  Then LF kills Ramsay by releasing his own hounds against him while Ramsay was in the cells of Winterfell. Later Littlefinger and Sansa marries.

[permaximum]

If I'm right, after Joffrey LF will kill an even worse psychopath. We all should cheer for him