Outcome of the battle of the bastards[ potential spoilers]

[Lord Freypie]

Scenarios where Baelish saves the day then is killed by Sansa/Jon look a bit wishful thinking from people knowing more things than the characters for me.

If he saves the day, I don't see why any of them would want him dead. He made a stupid (and out of character) error about Ramsay and proposed an extremely bad plan to Sansa, she accepted. She may have got him killed at Mole Town but I don't see why she would if he now proves he's finally on Starks (or at least her) side.

Jon had no interaction with LF at all, and barely knows him. I don't see why he would want him dead if Sansa don't, he has no idea of LF involvment in Ned's death or anything, and care even less about Lysa etc... than Sansa.

Knights of the Vale / Nestor Royce / Robin were fooled and may want LF punished if they hear the truth from Sansa. But it would be really surprising if one of the biggest vilain/anti-hero gets his comeuppance from such secundary characters (very likely to die in the battle btw, Vale characters are no longer needed once Starks control their forces).

So I think either LF will do something stupid attempting to betray the Starks (the plan he devised with Cersei... but then I don't see how they can win against the Boltons if Vale forces just wait then attack the winner) either he'll just stay alive becoming their advisor; untill they learn at some point of season 7 how he was involved in Ned's downfall and the beginning of the war (Sandor may perhaps be the witness needed as he was around when Ned was arrested, and probably witnessed Cersei-LF-Joff meetings before ; or Bran after seeing season 1 recaps in greendreams).

[JonSnowed]

According to very reliable spoilers

Jon is pronounced king in the North by the lords after winning Winterfell, the Tower Joy also reveals he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaeger, without out right stating it

so I think Jon rallying the realm looks logical for a S7 arc.

[Lord Friendzone]

3 minutes ago, JonSnowed said:

According to very reliable spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Jon is pronounced king in the North by the lords after winning Winterfell, the Tower Joy also reveals he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaeger, without out right stating it

so I think Jon rallying the realm looks logical for a S7 arc.

Yeah, they will show scene of Lyanna and Ned with baby, next scene is Jon. Basically saying he is their son but Rhaegar might be introduced later in next season when Daeny and Jon will meet. Since Jon is named KIng in the North, this probably why Littlefinger wants to meet him and undermine him. Having some sort of info. 

[Conchobar]

So from the information we have. Jon's army is largely outnumbered. Bolton's army has the height advantage. Jon's army is obliged to attack because of this height advantage that the Boltons posses. Ideally, the Stark archers would move forward first as a skirmish unit, closely followed by spearmen and heavy infantry, and closely followed by cavalry in case of a Bolton cavalry charge on the archers. Both lines of archers will engage in a volley for a while, then eventually the Starks would have to charge possibly while the Bolton archers are engaged with the Starchers. Historically fighting uphill was not actually as difficult as it is portrayed in many films, the main difficulty was slipping while ascending the slope. However, something happens that causes both armies to meet in the middle of the field, the Boltons charge first, then the Starks. Jon would never win this battle in any real life scenario unless he was defending, and even then it would be slim. Mormont super troopers or not.

[JMJ]

4 hours ago, Lord Freypie said:

Scenarios where Baelish saves the day then is killed by Sansa/Jon look a bit wishful thinking from people knowing more things than the characters for me.

If he saves the day, I don't see why any of them would want him dead. He made a stupid (and out of character) error about Ramsay and proposed an extremely bad plan to Sansa, she accepted. She may have got him killed at Mole Town but I don't see why she would if he now proves he's finally on Starks (or at least her) side.

Jon had no interaction with LF at all, and barely knows him. I don't see why he would want him dead if Sansa don't, he has no idea of LF involvment in Ned's death or anything, and care even less about Lysa etc... than Sansa.

Knights of the Vale / Nestor Royce / Robin were fooled and may want LF punished if they hear the truth from Sansa. But it would be really surprising if one of the biggest vilain/anti-hero gets his comeuppance from such secundary characters (very likely to die in the battle btw, Vale characters are no longer needed once Starks control their forces).

So I think either LF will do something stupid attempting to betray the Starks (the plan he devised with Cersei... but then I don't see how they can win against the Boltons if Vale forces just wait then attack the winner) either he'll just stay alive becoming their advisor; untill they learn at some point of season 7 how he was involved in Ned's downfall and the beginning of the war (Sandor may perhaps be the witness needed as he was around when Ned was arrested, and probably witnessed Cersei-LF-Joff meetings before ; or Bran after seeing season 1 recaps in greendreams).

I agree with the majority of this analysis. LF has indeed made a misstep with Ramsay, but he can probably recover given his conniving nature. I think Nestor Royce is another dead man walking. He's had serious breastplate stretcher work done - not in his prime anymore, and his obvious antagonism with LF earlier in the season I think spells his doom. I'm not even sure Robin will be on the battlefield. He is probably in a cart somewhere in the rear, if at all. He's too valuable to LF to expose him to any harm.

I do suspect that he will indeed be one of the few who figure out R+L=J (if he hasn't done so already) first, and somehow try to use it to his advantage. But I must believe that eventually Sansa or Jon will figure out LF's betrayal of Ned and turn on LF. That will probably be his doom. As to how they might figure it out, maybe Robin has overheard more than he lets on, maybe Varys will eventually figure it out and tell them, maybe somehow Cersei or Jaime will spill the beans.

 

 

[JMJ]

If indeed Jon is declared KITN, the other issue that will need resolution is that the houses that fight against him in the upcoming battle will need to be forgiven. Not sure how that's going to play out, esp House Bolton.

[Juan_Snow]

7 minutes ago, JMJ said:

If indeed Jon is declared KITN, the other issue that will need resolution is that the houses that fight against him in the upcoming battle will need to be forgiven. Not sure how that's going to play out, esp House Bolton.

They don't all necessarily need to be forgiven.  The Boltons for example are gone.  Those lands will have to pass to someone else.  Davos for example could be given a Northern lordship and take them over.  Jon could also strip the Umbers and Karstarks of their land and raise new lords.  Cadet branches of house Stark, with Bran and Sansa still in play are possibilities.  Tormund if he survives may be given the Umber lands.  The Mormonts could also be given more land.  I'd be interested if they go into any of that.  

There's also the possibility that none of those details really matter with the imminent White Walker attack.

[Rory Snow]

8 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

My point is, you can do good work with an unfinished original story. The fact that these two seasons are shit are due to D&D lack of skill, not the surrounding circumstances.

Agreed, just because D&D couldn't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. And if only GRRM had gotten off his ass when the tv series began 6 years ago the book series would be nearly complete.

7 minutes ago, Juan_Snow said:

They don't all necessarily need to be forgiven.  The Boltons for example are gone.  Those lands will have to pass to someone else.  Davos for example could be given a Northern lordship and take them over.  Jon could also strip the Umbers and Karstarks of their land and raise new lords.  Cadet branches of house Stark, with Bran and Sansa still in play are possibilities.  Tormund if he survives may be given the Umber lands.  The Mormonts could also be given more land.  I'd be interested if they go into any of that.  

That would be very interesting indeed. It could be omitted due to not being deemed important enough for the overall storyline, however that same argument didn't stop "The No Nuts & The Imp Comedy Hour", so I'm hopeful..

[lakin1013]

An idle thought about Littlefinger.  We know how he loved Catelyn and how much he regretted her marrying Ned. We 'believe' that it is possible that LF loves Sansa, at least loves as much as a self-involved character can love somebody.  After coming in at the last minute to help win the war, think how painful it would be for LF to become some type of advisor to Sansa and Jon and watch her fall in love with a decent guy. Then think how excruciating it would be for her to love Jon, another damn Stark :-)

That would be so fitting indeed  LOL  Or LF could become Snape 2.0 and actually dedicate himself to protecting Sansa.

[JMJ]

29 minutes ago, Juan_Snow said:

They don't all necessarily need to be forgiven.  The Boltons for example are gone.  Those lands will have to pass to someone else.  Davos for example could be given a Northern lordship and take them over.  Jon could also strip the Umbers and Karstarks of their land and raise new lords.  Cadet branches of house Stark, with Bran and Sansa still in play are possibilities.  Tormund if he survives may be given the Umber lands.  The Mormonts could also be given more land.  I'd be interested if they go into any of that.  

There's also the possibility that none of those details really matter with the imminent White Walker attack.

I think that's all possible in the books but unlikely in the show, in that it would take too much exposition to play all of that out. If something along these lines happens, it would require some kind of sweeping all is forgiven or you are all dead kind of maneuver by the Starks. But more importantly, I am assuming there will be an attempt at unification before the Others invade, and my point is just that it will be interesting to see how they play that out.

[JMJ]

15 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

An idle thought about Littlefinger.  We know how he loved Catelyn and how much he regretted her marrying Ned. We 'believe' that it is possible that LF loves Sansa, at least loves as much as a self-involved character can love somebody.  After coming in at the last minute to help win the war, think how painful it would be for LF to become some type of advisor to Sansa and Jon and watch her fall in love with a decent guy. Then think how excruciating it would be for her to love Jon, another damn Stark :-)

That would be so fitting indeed  LOL  Or LF could become Snape 2.0 and actually dedicate himself to protecting Sansa.

Not going to happen. You are talking about Stark incest. It's the Starks we're talking about, not the Lannisters or Targaryens.

[lakin1013]

Are you quite certain I am not talking about the Targaryens?

[MtnLion]

6 hours ago, Conchobar said:

Historically fighting uphill was not actually as difficult as it is portrayed in many films, the main difficulty was slipping while ascending the slope.

I would add ballistics to the list of challenges.  Shots fired uphill always land short, while shots fired downhill always are high, but less so than the uphill ones are short. 

[Rory Snow]

29 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Are you quite certain I am not talking about the Targaryens?

No matter how you cut it, one of Jon's parents, either Ned or Lyanna, is a Stark. Which means Jon is either a half brother (Ned) or 1st cousin (Lyanna) to Sansa. Too close for comfort for the Starks I believe.

Now if you want to marry Jon Targaryen off to his Aunt Dany.. well, you just may have something there.

[MtnLion]

5 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

No matter how you cut it, one of Jon's parents, either Ned or Lyanna, is a Stark. Which means Jon is either a half brother (Ned) or 1st cousin (Lyanna) to Sansa. Too close for comfort for the Starks I believe.

Now if you want to marry Jon Targaryen off to his Aunt Dany.. well, you just may have something there.

Heh, and GRRM planned for Jon and Arya to be romantically involved.  Tyrion and Jon are supposed to be at odds with each other over her.  My personal perspective is that Jon will have two wives, one political (Daenerys) and one for love (Arya). 

[Lord Friendzone]

8 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

No matter how you cut it, one of Jon's parents, either Ned or Lyanna, is a Stark. Which means Jon is either a half brother (Ned) or 1st cousin (Lyanna) to Sansa. Too close for comfort for the Starks I believe.

Now if you want to marry Jon Targaryen off to his Aunt Dany.. well, you just may have something there.

Ned's mother and father were cousins. Since when is Jon Targaryen? I believe he is named Jon Snow maybe Stark after this season.

[Rory Snow]

1 minute ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Ned's mother and father were cousins. Since when is Jon Targaryen? I believe he is named Jon Snow maybe Stark after this season.

If Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark had Jon, he's as much a Targaryen as he is a Stark

[MtnLion]

3 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Ned's mother and father were cousins. Since when is Jon Targaryen? I believe he is named Jon Snow maybe Stark after this season.

Take a quick read of the link in my signature to "at the tower of joy".  There is a reason that the Kingsguard stay, after the war, after the siege is lifted at Storm's End, when Rhaella and Viserys need protection on Dragonstone, and fight Ned and his buddies to the death.  Need I quote what Brienne has recited twice, once to Catelyn, and once to Sansa? 

[JMJ]

48 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Are you quite certain I am not talking about the Targaryens?

Although Jon is likely as much a Targ as Stark biologically, culturally and disposition-wise, he is nearly 100% Stark, raised as a Stark (bastard), and he acts like a Stark through and through. Point being, it seems unlikely he would somehow suddenly adopt the the Targ incest M.O.

Although, if you are down with that kind of thing, Jon with Sansa AND Arya by his side is an intriguing idea.

[Lord Friendzone]

4 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

If Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark had Jon, he's as much a Targaryen as he is a Stark

By blood half Stark and Targaryen...not just Targaryen. He could be Targaryen if he got some proof that he's legitimate. Currently Jon Snow, could be Stark if somebody will name him.