Outcome of the battle of the bastards[ potential spoilers]

[Les Météores D]

1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jon is not a kneeler and his time with wildlings taught him that. What makes you think that? I think out of necessity they would need to work together and not just them. All the people.

Jon is pragmatic, Dany wants the 7K. Granted, she could agree to compromise without wanting to be the queen of everything, we shall see. I hope she does.

[~DarkHorse~]

13 hours ago, Drago said:

Hello People,

 

A lot of interesting theories,

Lets presume that Jon is indeed declared King of the North.

The only way I see this happening is if the battle is won and pretty much over by the time LF turns up, if he turns up.

As we know little finger is a complete Dick and he will try to do everything to his advantage, we know that he wants the North and we also know he wants Sansa.  Why would he help the starks now if Jon is in Charge? I know that there would most likely be a twist. It is also possible that he would want to get rid of Ramsay and this is the best way to do it that way the Starks lose most of their army with little harm to his own.

My point is why would the other Lords declare him King in the North if he was rescued by LF?  A King wins his own Battles.

It is also possible that Jon does find out about LF an he fits this into his calculations but I doubt it as he has no reason to trust LF. I would also point out that he asks Mel not to bring him back if he dies. Why would a man who is expecting 10-15 thousand army even be thinking of dying? Doesn't make sense, which is why I don not believe that he knows they are coming.

this is a whole lot of conjecture.

Not necessarily. Aragorn needed the Rohan forces to save him at Helms Deep before going on to become a King. He was not the face of the battle, or the victor but a man who performed heroic deeds in battle, fighting alongside other men and inspiring courage. That is what gained him respect. Also, King Joffrey (and Baratheon/Lannister hold on the Iron Throne) was saved by Tywin/Tyrell forces at Blackwater.

The 'saved by incoming army at last minute' trope is used allot in this story, in both Blackwater and The Battle of Castle Black. It looks like it will be used in this Battle centric episode as well. It is so predictable and over used, to be honest. Rather than having Jon's forces and the Vale forces working together from the start, we need the drama, the sense of despair and defeat....because you know, it is the only way to create tension. 

But it means that Jon and Sansa will be in Littlefinger's debt. I'm sure Littlefinger will take advantage of this.  

[Lord Friendzone]

48 minutes ago, Les Météores D said:

Jon is pragmatic, Dany wants the 7K. Granted, she could agree to compromise without wanting to be the queen of everything, we shall see. I hope she does.

Especially since his parentage must play a role in this. I want them to meet as equals and for example clash over ideas how to fight White Walkers. Both are smart characters for not to clash like wanting to kill each other. Daeny will saw invasion, Jon will try to do what is in his powers.

[hebertjl5]

Prediction (some unconfirmed spoilers mixed in as well):

 

Spoiler

The scenes in Episode 10 where it's mentioned that LF and Jon speak together with Ghost circling LF and LF tells Jon he has information for him...I believe this is true but it's not the R+L=J reveal, I would bet that LF has Robb Stark's will or some other confirmation which proclaims Jon a Stark and not a bastard.

 

[Darksky]

5 hours ago, Sneaky-Tyrell said:

Correct,  This is the show after all.  All is as it seems.

Tywin saving the day at Blackwater, Stannis saving the day at The Wall...all Martin's idea

 

Why do I get the feeling that if it were Manderlys (maybe some other Northern Houses too) saving the day, people would eat this shit up? But because it's Littlefinger/The Vale, people just scoff and whine.

[JonSnowed]

We know from spoilers that Jon

will be declared king in the North in episode 10 and we will also get the tower of joy reveal which implies he is the rightful air to the iron throne too

. No way Dany ever rules the seven kingdoms in my eyes, she will invade and probably die towards the end.

[Hodor's Aunt]

5 hours ago, Barbossa said:

The Knights of the Vale have to come and save the day for two obvious reasons:

- First off all there's no way the "Stark" army is winning, considering the Boltons have learned spartan phalanx tactics ( wtf is that about? ).

The tactic is called "shield wall" and was heavily used during the early middle ages by forces you could compare to that of the boltons here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_wall

Fits perfectly.

[Ser Rodrik Wyte]

Not sure of this one at all i have to say. Always seems to be the rug-pull on these matters mostly, IMO.

[Hodor's Aunt]

6 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

Before the War, Starks were not Kings. They were the most important house that had their banner men, but not Kings. Rob was crowned King in a very special circunstance, which was a rebellion. Why now, after been divested by wars the North would want to start another rebellion?  To pledge alliance and even vassalization to Jon, I may see that. But King? I think is not very plausible.

Well technically they still rebel against the crown who has bestowed the Boltons with Winterfell. If Jon would name himself Lord of Winterfell, King in the North or master of the universe wouldn't make much difference in the eyes of cersai and for that matter other big houses too. So why not claim the title. It's a logical move: "hey we are back and we continue where our old king - the never defeated but once betrayed Robb was stopped".

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Darksky said:

Tywin saving the day at Blackwater, Stannis saving the day at The Wall...all Martin's idea

 

Why do I get the feeling that if it were Manderlys (maybe some other Northern Houses too) saving the day, people would eat this shit up? But because it's Littlefinger/The Vale, people just scoff and whine.

No, the rule of thumb is that if Martin writes it, people eat it, if D&D or Cogman write it, people scoff and whine. (And I'm not saying D&D&C always do good writing, the last episode was as bad as it gets, but there's shit in the books that's as bad as it gets too and people still worship it)

[Drogo_1]

6 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

No, the rule of thumb is that if Martin writes it, people eat it, if D&D or Cogman write it, people scoff and whine. (And I'm not saying D&D&C always do good writing, the last episode was as bad as it gets, but there's shit in the books that's as bad as it gets too and people still worship it)

The last 2 episodes are proof of shit writing. There was very little continuity of both Jon and Arya's characters. I am annoyed by it. We deserve better.

[Les Météores D]

3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Especially since his parentage must play a role in this. I want them to meet as equals and for example clash over ideas how to fight White Walkers. Both are smart characters for not to clash like wanting to kill each other. Daeny will saw invasion, Jon will try to do what is in his powers.

At first I thought they'd do a light dwd conflict or something between D&J, since fAegon is out, but yeah, only 13 episodes left so very unlikely. 

Also I checked the rez scene. lmao @ that blatant, convenient continuity error: Jon has 6 stabs in the belly and 1 huge in the (North) heart. Subtlety out of the window.

[RhaenysBee]

6 minutes ago, Drogo_1 said:

The last 2 episodes are proof of shit writing. There was very little continuity of both Jon and Arya's characters. I am annoyed by it. We deserve better.

I know, they were both terrible. And even the After Thrones or wtf clips mentioned that continuity and consistency was non existent in the Arya storyline. 

[Trillmendous]

I've been following this thread for a while as a lurker and finally decided to join in on the conversation. So hey everyone.

 

7 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I don't think there is such perception, that Lannisters are weak at this very moment. Tommen is Allied with the faith, still have support of the Tyrells (Marg is playing saint..) . So they control the two biggest armies in westeros. So much so, that Jaime was dispatched to take Riverrun.. SO RIGHT NOW (before burn them all) the perception of KL is that they are very strong

I think it's very plausible that they'd proclaim him king. Theirs a big spoiler that's going to happen in episode 10 that would make it even more plausible but even without the events of episode 10 it makes sense. The seven Kingdoms is on the verge of becoming a theocracy... a theocracy that is not the same religion as what the lords of the north worship so why wouldn't the northern lords want to be independent again?

[Schwarze Sonne]

All I see is that Sansa has become very unlikable for not informing Jon about LF's knights of Vale while urging him to fight in the war he was completely outnumbered 6:1 with an army lacking of military discipline.

If Sansa simply told Jon about LF and asking for LF's help earlier, the entire battle would have changed, EVERYTHING. There's be not as many casualties on Jon's side had Jon knew about the reinforcement and he could have just wait a bit more. LF can't be trusted, yet Sansa selfishly told Jon to lead an army to win the war for her while keeping him in the dark. I wouldn't trust someone like her either.

Well, maybe LF's was marching his army slowly so that Jon couldn't wait until he appeared just in time anyway. But I feel really uncomfortable about Sansa lying to Jon and co.

I feel like everybody's gonna view Jon as incompetent while ignoring Sansa's implication in this.

[Fayçal]

Episode 09 has been leaked by mistake by HBO nordic you can find it online

Spoiler

Just kidding, don't flay me

 

[Apathetic Onlooker]

The outcome of the Battle of the Bastards will be that a bastard will win. Which bastard you ask? Smart money's on Littlefinger. But that's obvious, seeing as this show couldn't drum up enough mystery to disguise a fart.

[TickTak7]

It will be bittersweet, even if Team Stark wins. 

It'll go something like this - Sansa and Jon will battle, will start to lose the battle, but Littlefinger's Vale Army will come riding in to balance the numbers, and just when the good guys seem to be on top, Ramsey will kill Rickon or something. 

Ramsey also isn't dying this episode. Not a chance. More so will be captured or something - he is the big bad until the White Walkers come south, so they won't kill him until The Long Night starts.

On 6/6/2016 at 10:07 AM, dbunting said:

Do you really think that the show would change the outcome of this battle from the books, knowing how big it is? Saying that they will do this for shock value so twitter lights up makes no sense. 

I'll just add that they've made changes for shock value on the show in the past, so it's not beyond them to do it again. 

But yes - this battle feels too big to be deviating from what GRRM wants. 

[~DarkHorse~]

3 hours ago, Darksky said:

Why do I get the feeling that if it were Manderlys (maybe some other Northern Houses too) saving the day, people would eat this shit up? But because it's Littlefinger/The Vale, people just scoff and whine.

Because it would fall into "The North Remembers" theme, rather than being the man who betrayed Ned in the first place and handed Sansa over to be abused by Ramsay, saving Winterfell. It would also be in character for Manderly to do this, if we were following the books example. 

 

[tmug]

36 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

All I see is that Sansa has become very unlikable for not informing Jon about LF's knights of Vale while urging him to fight in the war he was completely outnumbered 6:1 with an army lacking of military discipline.

If Sansa simply told Jon about LF and asking for LF's help earlier, the entire battle would have changed, EVERYTHING. There's be not as many casualties on Jon's side had Jon knew about the reinforcement and he could have just wait a bit more. LF can't be trusted, yet Sansa selfishly told Jon to lead an army to win the war for her while keeping him in the dark. I wouldn't trust someone like her either.

Well, maybe LF's was marching his army slowly so that Jon couldn't wait until he appeared just in time anyway. But I feel really uncomfortable about Sansa lying to Jon and co.

I feel like everybody's gonna view Jon as incompetent while ignoring Sansa's implication in this.

Some can see it that Sansa is playing the "game" for Jon by not getting him involved with Littlefinger's deceptions. But I agree with your point that if Jon is backed by 40,000 Knights of the Vale, no question Northern Lords such as Glover would jump at the chance at fighting the Boltons. 

I believe Sansa could have even had Brienne killed Littlefinger at Molestown and then pursue Sweet Robin for the reinforcements. But Littlefinger has obvious plot armor that has saved him up to this point.

Does Sansa not trust Littlefinger for good reasons? Absolutely. She could have gotten him to atone his grievous mistake by by giving her his army to use to rally the North at the very least to regain her 'trust'. Leaving Molestown empty-handed turned out to be a HUGE mistake. After she gets the Vale support, have Jon put him in chains at Castle Black and deal with him later.

But this is THIS show and that might make too much sense or they portrayed Sansa still being too stupid to do anything, making her appear to hinder her own cause to prove she still hasn't learned anything after all of her character's progress.