Jon Cannot Be Angry With Sansa

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

25 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I'm honestly completely confused about why Sansa didn't just tell Jon about the Vale army. I don't think she wanted him to die so she could free to take WF without any potential complications from him. I would almost rather this be her motive because at least then it would make sense and would actually be a smart decision, ruthless but smart. But I don't think that what her goal was. Right now, it seems like there was no good reason for her withholding this information. I see people advancing the Jon wouldn't have agreed argument. But to me that doesn't really sense either. IIRC Jon knows nothing about Littlefinger and his conniving ways. So he doesn't really have a reason not to accept an army especially considering the circumstances. I'm hoping her reasoning is better explained. Otherwise, her withholding information seems like just a way to have the "surprise" Vale army come save the day when it seemed that all hope was lost.

Exactly my issue with the plot. 

About Jon getting angry at Sansa, I don't see that happening. He values family a lot now that he has lost his trust in the night watch. She is technically everything of a family he has now, so he is very protective of her and I am sure he is forgiving. 

I can see Sansa makes use of Jon's goodness for her plans. 

[caravaggio]

4 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

There's definitely gonna be further follow-up on Jon/Sansa next week based on the trailers, but yeah...It's just been really clunky writing all-around in terms of characterization in the North.  I get the sense the show worked backwards from "Knights of the Vale ride in to save the day a la Gandalf" and never really put the effort in to explain why Sansa wouldn't tell Jon about this.

From what I gather so far based on LF's convo with Sansa early in the season and Sansa's convo with Jon this week, Sansa seems to be keeping things close to the chest due to pride/sibling rivalry and possibly shame over her history with Littlefinger.  I don't think the show has remotely put any effort into making this work and make sense, but I'm gonna wait until next week to see if we get some kind of explanation.

My problem with this week was everybody was really stupid (I actually think pretty much the entire Northern storyline this year has made Jon and Sansa look pretty dumb- They put up weak-ass recruitments of the other Northern lords among other things).  But yeah- Jon falling right into Ramsay's trap was terrible.  And Sansa complaining about Jon's ideas, then Jon asking her what the alternative was, and her again not saying anything and failing to mention Vale troops- terrible.  

Like I said though, hopeful we will get something next week clarifying how Jon and Sansa feel about each other and reaffirming sibling love and trust and maybe trying to explain why Sansa didn't tell Jon about this. 

Agreed. It is bad writing that is making all of this so confusing and making all the characters look dumb. I think the actors did well with what they had.

 

The best thing that can happen for the show at this point is TWoW being released in time to have an impact on next year's scripts.

[DarkerStar]

12 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

While I agree that Sansa should have told Jon, is it possible she actually did the right thing.

 

 

Jon mentioned he was surprised that Ramsay was fighting him in the open, and they needed him to meet on the field because Jon understood they had no chance if Ramsay made them siege the castle.

If Jon had tKotV then Ramsay would never have met him on the field.  Is it possible Sansa planned this all along?

 

Of course if that was the case, she should have used them as soon as possible, not waiting till the last second.

So Sansa knows battlefield tactics now. Ok. But we know Ramsay wants no parts of hiding behind walls and waiting. See the 20 good men scene with Roose. And just because Sansa and Jon know about the Valemen doesn't mean Ramsay does. The plan could have stayed the same. Except instead of cutting off their own retreat  Jon's forces actually lead Ramsay into an ambush a la the final battle in the Patriot.

[Xarkar]

2 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

So Sansa knows battlefield tactics now. Ok. But we know Ramsay wants no parts of hiding behind walls and waiting. See the 20 good men scene with Roose. And just because Sansa and Jon know about the Valemen doesn't mean Ramsay does. The plan could have stayed the same. Except instead of cutting off their own retreat  Jon's forces actually lead Ramsay into an ambush a la the final battle in the Patriot.

I know none of it makes sense.

 

It is probably just to add suspense to the show.  I mean lets assume Sansa told Jon they were coming.  Wouldnt be much of a battle would it.  Everyone would have known the outcome.  So this way they could get some nice fighting, with people thinking Jon may lose etc.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

31 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

I know none of it makes sense.

It is probably just to add suspense to the show.  I mean lets assume Sansa told Jon they were coming.  Wouldnt be much of a battle would it.  Everyone would have known the outcome.  So this way they could get some nice fighting, with people thinking Jon may lose etc.

This comment brings the most sense to the whole thread of Sansa's lovers. Lol

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Sansa should not have withhold some key information which could have helped Snow's camp with their battle plans, and reduced the risk to them, as they would have allowed them to make better use of their forces.

Plus, the problem isn't just with Jon Snow but with also withholding information from Davos and Tormund. And of all the men in the army who are also fighting for Sansa's cause of retaking Winterfell. All of them matter too.

Jon charging and Sansa withholding the key information was both being handed the idiot ball for the sake of extra drama. Like a lot of tv show miscomunications and secrets, i don't buy the reason assumed for why it was necessary.

[SerMixalot]

The only interpretation from what was shown over this season in the show is that Sansa knowingly manipulated Jon to regain WF for her own purposes.

The 1st thing she does when she reaches CB is to push Jon to attack WF, implying he is a coward for not fighting, saying she would go after WF with or without him.

When the Pink Letter arrives she pushes Jon by saying they have to save WF AND Rickon

She was part of the ENTIRE planning process for the attack on WF

She KNEW before leaving CB that LF had an army at Moat Caitlin-She snuck out to meet LF.  These are NOT the actions of someone playing straight with her brother/ally.  It does not matter who or what LF is, she had a responsibility to tell her brother everything-SO HE COULD PLAN ACCORDINGLY.  that is an act with nefarious purposes.

She knows throughout the lead up to the attack on WF a. how many troops Jon has, b. Winter is Coming

She negotiates LF assistance without discussing/involving Jon

She makes a 180 at the last minute and says Rickon is already dead-of course she is wrong, but to give up on someone you love until proof he is dead is simply wrong. 

She does all this while complaining that Jon is not listening to her when she has consistently refused to give him the ONE piece of information that would change everything, that she had access to an army.  That is unforgivable.

I am fully convinced and all evidence supports the fact that D&D are making Sansa a villain.

 

[Penny and Dime]

Here are my two cents.

LF is not the most reliable ally. Maybe (and with good reason) she had her doubts he would show up to help and thought it best not to give any hopes or make any sort of strategy for men they were not guaranteed to have on their side yet.

Also, LF being LF, could have stayed behind on purpose just to swoop in at the very last minute, save the day and show what a 'hero' he can be. Sounds like him.

 

It does bother me though that she doesn't seem to be affected by all those men they ended up losing...brother included. Maybe she's finally playing the game.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Xarkar said:

It is probably just to add suspense to the show.  I mean lets assume Sansa told Jon they were coming.  Wouldnt be much of a battle would it.  Everyone would have known the outcome.  So this way they could get some nice fighting, with people thinking Jon may lose etc.

When you have your characters willingly enter into a scenario that makes them look dumb all for the sake of suspense, that's poor writing. There would've been an easy way around that too, just have Ramsay march on Castle Black and initiate the battle when his scouts realize the Vale knights are coming. There's suspense, the pressure is on Ramsay to destroy Jon's army before they can link up with the Vale, everyone's acting in their best interests... and it would even be suspenseful.

[IrisBest]

1 hour ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Sansa is not going to betray her brother. Even if she dont give a shit about anyone at this point, she knows that only one person has her back in this world, and that's Jon, and Brienne. I dont think she cares if its her or Jon ruling Winterfel, she just wants her house back. As far as Jon, im more than sure he dont care about ruling the north, "The others" dont care about houses when they come down, Jon just wants everyone joined together to prepare for the battle that counts.

This. Sansa will not ~betray Jon and it was never even an idea that crossed her mind. She is not a villain and never will be. 

And anyway our reliable spoilers say

Spoiler

she is in agreement that he should be KitN, so no. there's no plot line where she's trying to gain power for herself at his expense and is surprised or whatever by not getting to be QitN like some people are gleefully hoping for. If anything supporting Jon as King is going to be Sansa's way of outmaneuvering LF if his plan was to install himself as WitN by marrying her. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

24 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

The only interpretation from what was shown over this season in the show is that Sansa knowingly manipulated Jon to regain WF for her own purposes.

The 1st thing she does when she reaches CB is to push Jon to attack WF, implying he is a coward for not fighting, saying she would go after WF with or without him.

When the Pink Letter arrives she pushes Jon by saying they have to save WF AND Rickon

She was part of the ENTIRE planning process for the attack on WF

She KNEW before leaving CB that LF had an army at Moat Caitlin-She snuck out to meet LF.  These are NOT the actions of someone playing straight with her brother/ally.  It does not matter who or what LF is, she had a responsibility to tell her brother everything-SO HE COULD PLAN ACCORDINGLY.  that is an act with nefarious purposes.

She knows throughout the lead up to the attack on WF a. how many troops Jon has, b. Winter is Coming

She negotiates LF assistance without discussing/involving Jon

She makes a 180 at the last minute and says Rickon is already dead-of course she is wrong, but to give up on someone you love until proof he is dead is simply wrong. 

She does all this while complaining that Jon is not listening to her when she has consistently refused to give him the ONE piece of information that would change everything, that she had access to an army.  That is unforgivable.

I am fully convinced and all evidence supports the fact that D&D are making Sansa a villain.

 

On top of all of that she's gone out of her way to point out that Jon's a Snow and she's the Stark. It's sad when this only makes sense if Sansa feels threatened by Jon and is actively seeking to undermine him with one hand, while pushing him to do her agenda with the other all in the name of sibling love.

[Red Tiger]

27 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

I am fully convinced and all evidence supports the fact that D&D are making Sansa a villain.

 

This late in the game, though?

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

25 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

The only interpretation from what was shown over this season in the show is that Sansa knowingly manipulated Jon to regain WF for her own purposes.

The 1st thing she does when she reaches CB is to push Jon to attack WF, implying he is a coward for not fighting, saying she would go after WF with or without him.

When the Pink Letter arrives she pushes Jon by saying they have to save WF AND Rickon

She was part of the ENTIRE planning process for the attack on WF

She KNEW before leaving CB that LF had an army at Moat Caitlin-She snuck out to meet LF.  These are NOT the actions of someone playing straight with her brother/ally.  It does not matter who or what LF is, she had a responsibility to tell her brother everything-SO HE COULD PLAN ACCORDINGLY.  that is an act with nefarious purposes.

She knows throughout the lead up to the attack on WF a. how many troops Jon has, b. Winter is Coming

She negotiates LF assistance without discussing/involving Jon

She makes a 180 at the last minute and says Rickon is already dead-of course she is wrong, but to give up on someone you love until proof he is dead is simply wrong. 

She does all this while complaining that Jon is not listening to her when she has consistently refused to give him the ONE piece of information that would change everything, that she had access to an army.  That is unforgivable.

I am fully convinced and all evidence supports the fact that D&D are making Sansa a villain.

 

Lol where is the like button for this post? The writing for Sansa is so conflicted and so stupid this season. I'm saying Jon is also stupid but let's blame it on him being resurrected so he's no longer himself anymore. 

The issue with Sansa not telling Jon about her plan indicates that she doesn't care if he's dead or alive (and Rickon too) after the battle as long as they get back Winterfell. And the most hilarious thing is that she pushed him and his supporters into the battle in the first place. Technically she was using the family card so people die for her and her revenge, regardless of them being her family or not.

[caravaggio]

4 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

This. Sansa will not ~betray Jon and it was never even an idea that crossed her mind. She is not a villain and never will be. 

And anyway our reliable spoilers say

  Hide contents

she is in agreement that he should be KitN, so no. there's no plot line where she's trying to gain power for herself at his expense and is surprised or whatever by not getting to be QitN like some people are gleefully hoping for. If anything supporting Jon as King is going to be Sansa's way of outmaneuvering LF if his plan was to install himself as WitN by marrying her. 

 

To me, that is what makes it so frustrating. It's bad writing that has lead all of us to be so confused.

[IrisBest]

3 minutes ago, caravaggio said:

To me, that is what makes it so frustrating. It's bad writing that has lead all of us to be so confused.

True, like I don't think it was D&D's intention at all to make people question Sansa's motives or loyalty to Jon. It was just a very clumsy way of setting up the Vale arriving when all hope seems lost. As others have said - they decided early on that this would happen and worked their way backwards without regard to organic character decisions. There were definitely better ways to utilize the Vale and better ways for this story line to have played out, but this the same writing team that gave us that resolution to the Arya-Faceless Men plot so is anyone surprised, really lol. 

[W1NT3RF3LL]

2 minutes ago, caravaggio said:

To me, that is what makes it so frustrating. It's bad writing that has lead all of us to be so confused.

I don't think it is bad writing at all, for the north story anyways.  She is in a predicament.  For one we as the audience really don't know how much is known of LF in Jon's camp.  We know that Catelyn knew of LF's betrayal of Ned, however we don't know how much of that traveled north.  There are many different pieces here.  Does Jon even know of Sansa's doings before she got married to Ramsey? You have to realize that she would have to concoct a whole story to Jon about LF and how  she managed to get to the North to begin with.  How did she get the backing of the Vale, where is their Aunt? I mean there is so many things that she would have to explain to him on top of him speaking with LF. Time is of the essence, he doesn't have time to sit there and recruit an army as he already exhausted his time in doing so.  He has two things on his mind, Rickon and WF.  He needs to secure both quickly.  

I think essentially what happened is Sansa played her cards in a risky manner.  She thought that the Stark name would carry a lot of weight and that loyalty would come before all, however she was wrong. SO, she fell back to LF.  At that point when she fell back to LF there was no time to explain or to get Jon to understand.  I have to think that he wouldn't be with arms wide open for the idea, because we don't know how much he knows of LF, but I have to think he has some idea of who the man is.  I think we area all under the assumption that Jon would have no issue with LF, we don't know much at all of his knowledge of the man.

[SerMixalot]

5 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

True, like I don't think it was D&D's intention at all to make people question Sansa's motives or loyalty to Jon. It was just a very clumsy way of setting up the Vale arriving when all hope seems lost. As others have said - they decided early on that this would happen and worked their way backwards without regard to organic character decisions. There were definitely better ways to utilize the Vale and better ways for this story line to have played out, but this the same writing team that gave us that resolution to the Arya-Faceless Men plot so is anyone surprised, really lol. 

True, it may be one of those moments where they did something and didn't quite realize the implications, i.e. the coup in KL by the Faith. 

I doubt this though given the intentional pointing out of various issues in the scenes-i.e. Jon stating he has not enough troops, Sansa meeting LF on the sly.  Too many details for this to be a mistake and not intentional. I actually don't have a problem with them making Sansa a villain, if they can stick with it and not have her do a 180.  But it needs to be called what it is.

[Ross2013]

32 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

When you have your characters willingly enter into a scenario that makes them look dumb all for the sake of suspense, that's poor writing. There would've been an easy way around that too, just have Ramsay march on Castle Black and initiate the battle when his scouts realize the Vale knights are coming. There's suspense, the pressure is on Ramsay to destroy Jon's army before they can link up with the Vale, everyone's acting in their best interests... and it would even be suspenseful.

Are we completely discounting the notion that perhaps Sansa didn't mind the wildling army being ripped to shreds first before having the Knights come in for Ramsey's defeat?  In which case, that would make her ruthless, not dumb.

[caravaggio]

13 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

True, it may be one of those moments where they did something and didn't quite realize the implications, i.e. the coup in KL by the Faith. 

I doubt this though given the intentional pointing out of various issues in the scenes-i.e. Jon stating he has not enough troops, Sansa meeting LF on the sly.  Too many details for this to be a mistake and not intentional. I actually don't have a problem with them making Sansa a villain, if they can stick with it and not have her do a 180.  But it needs to be called what it is.

I'm anticipating the 180.

[Lord Lannister]

36 minutes ago, Ross2013 said:

Are we completely discounting the notion that perhaps Sansa didn't mind the wildling army being ripped to shreds first before having the Knights come in for Ramsey's defeat?  In which case, that would make her ruthless, not dumb.

It's a heck of a thing when yes, that is the debate we're having... did they just dumb down the characters to serve the plot or did they assassinate the characters personas?