Do Lannisters ever pay their debts?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, MuzzBomb said:

I have long suspected that the supposed gold mines of Casterly Rock have been exaggerated. We just hear reassuring phrases; All the gold of Casterly Rock, A Lannister always pays their debts. these are commonly used but as has been pointed out, Lannisters don't really pay their debts with their abundant stacks of gold.

We've never met a former worker from those mines nor hear of any shipments of gold moving between places.

We have not set foot in the Westerlands in the five books and the small folk are rarely featured int his series. When exactly should we have met a former worker from those mines?

Kevan seems to think it is more than possible that the Lannisters can pay the Crowns debts

"The magisters of Pentos have been known to lend money as well," said Ser Kevan. "Try them." The Pentoshi were even less like to be of help than the Myrish money changers, but the effort must be made. Unless a new source of coin could be found, or the Iron Bank persuaded to relent, he would have no choice but to pay the crown's debts with Lannister gold."

 

Not only do the Lannisters pay their debts, but sometimes they pay other peoples debts as well:

It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself.

 

 

[Grey Firewyrm]

So at this point we know the Lannisters have paid out loads of money. I don't suggest they have none or little but perhaps that they over exaggerate the amounts they have. Which with their fierce reputation no one would be likely to (within reason, banks obviously have and will) call them out on their situation.

I suppose there is no reason to randomly meet some miner. Yet we have met Black smiths, Inn Keepers even prostitutes along the way. Perhaps there is a reason we don't hear a rumor or two, maybe the mine workers are kept confined and subsequently eliminated to prevent information escaping which is very possible any way you look at it.

[Farstrider]

17 hours ago, James Steller said:

It's more of a veiled threat than a spoken truth about how all Lannisters behave. It's not like Shireen Baratheon exemplifies a stag declaring that theirs is the fury, nor do you actually expect Kevan to roar like a lion.

This.  It is more of a threat.  The Clan never got the Eyrie.  Although that could change later in the story.  Debts go unpaid sometimes.  Circumstances make it difficult.  Western Union didn't exist.  Though, to be fair, Jaime had regard for Robb Stark and Roose was kind enough to deliver it. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, MuzzBomb said:

So at this point we know the Lannisters have paid out loads of money. I don't suggest they have none or little but perhaps that they over exaggerate the amounts they have.

Do they ever give figures for how much they have? I know Tyrion gives flippant remarks, but for the most part the Lannisters only really note that they are supremely rich.

GRRM: The westerlands are the richest, with all the gold and silver in those hills.

Now considering the Westerlands is the richest region, all the tax collect, the city they rule from would mean they would be one of the, if not the, richest Houses even without their own Gold mines.

3 minutes ago, MuzzBomb said:

 

Which with their fierce reputation no one would be likely to (within reason, banks obviously have and will) call them out on their situation.

 What banks have called them out?

The Baratheons of Kings Landing (Robert/Joffrey/Tommen) and the Lannisters are two different families. Cersei becoming Queen does not mean they are responsible for the Crown's debts no more than the Tyrells are with Marg becoming Queen.

Cersei had the funds to pay the Iron Bank and Faith, she stupidly chose to use them to build a new royal navy and did not expect the Bank to resort to war over it.

Kevan states that the Lannisters can cover these debts but frankly is is pointless winning the Throne if the Lannisters have to continually throw money at it. It has the resources to be (more than) self sufficient.

3 minutes ago, MuzzBomb said:

I suppose there is no reason to randomly meet some miner. Yet we have met Black smiths, Inn Keepers even prostitutes along the way.

Any innkeepers or blacksmiths from the Westerlands? I can't recall if any Westerlander prostitute has been mentioned but I imagine there would have been some with the Lannister army.

The smallfolk don't move around unless they are merchants or are part of some Lords army.

Have we actually met a non soldier smallfolk Westerlander in the series?

3 minutes ago, MuzzBomb said:

 

Perhaps there is a reason we don't hear a rumor or two, maybe the mine workers are kept confined and subsequently eliminated to prevent information escaping which is very possible any way you look at it.

A rumor about what? And why are Kevan and Tyrion under the impression in ADWD that the Lannisters are still hugely rich?

[Grey Firewyrm]

Alright. I will admit that I personally ike the notion of the Lannisters becoming destitute eventually.

I suppose my final argument in this is that the Lannisters' are supposedly descendants of Lann the Clever. Whom apparently gained his seat at Casterly Rock by some trickery. I can see parallels with the Lannisters gaining the throne through trickery of their own, notably Jamie and Cersei.

[Duncan_The_Short]

23 hours ago, Winter's Breath said:

So perhaps we await some giant debt paid/unpaid?

Wouldn't it be awesome if Tyrion's endgame is him going all Michael Corleone on everybody he ever said this to?

[BalerionTheCat]

It was meant by Tywin and his children, that the Lannisters will not forget any wrong done to them. But I believe it means they will pay, the House will pay, for their crimes. IMO, the House Lannister will go to ruin. Their children Tommen and Myrcella will pay for Aegon and Rhaenys murder by their own live.

[dariopatke]

24 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 IMO, the House Lannister will go to ruin. 

With so many vharacters and cadet branches? Extremly unlikely. 

[aFeastForDragons]

Tyrion kills Tywin for the abuse he and his wife suffered at his command

Vargo Hoat is horrifically tortured for betraying the Lannisters

Tywin rewards the Mountain clans greatly for their service and then sent them on their way

Margery is married to Joffery for helping or planning to help the Lannisters defeat Stannis at the Blackwater

Margery is then married to Tommen, further fulfilling the agreement beyond what was originally agreed

 

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

With so many vharacters and cadet branches? Extremly unlikely. 

I was speaking of Tywin. I believe Casterly Rock will go to Jaime. But somehow it will be revealed he is Aerys bastard. Of course, there are too many Lannisters in Lanisport and elsewhere. But I believe the name "Lannister" will be "tainted". Probably means Tyrion will die too. He killed his father with only vengeance for justification.

[MinotaurWarrior]

2 hours ago, dariopatke said:

With so many vharacters and cadet branches? Extremly unlikely. 

As of ADWD, taking as a given that Cersei's line is out (because they're all gonna die and are disinherited besides), Martyn is the head of House Lannister of Casterly Rock, and then after him comes Janei (a baby girl) and then after her come the Freys. It is very, very possible that the Lannisters of Casterly Rock will be gone by series end.

Lannisport, the city full of Lannisters, is likely to stay in their hands at least for the next generation. Though I think, if it survives at all, it could very well end up becoming known as Freyport at some point in the future, based on the foreshadowing of a Frey Exodus from the Twins in the ASoS epilogue. E.g. Martyn comes to Casterly Rock, Red Walder (a 15 year old page there) arrange a bethrothal to Janei, and then kills Martyn, and around the same time Edwyn or Black Walder inherit the Twins and expel everyone who they neither hate enough to kill nor trust enough to keep around. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 Frey men are then homeless. Red Walder, fearing revolt from Cadet Lannisters, invites the Freys to settle in Lannisport, to keep some friends close by. With around fifty Frey families settling in, and a number of Lannisport Lannisters dying in stupid revolts, Frey might become nearly as common a name as Lannister, and would eventually be much more prestigious (the house with two paramount seats and four named castles, versus the house with a few minor holdfasts who blew up the realm in a fit of incest and rape).

 

[dariopatke]

52 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I was speaking of Tywin. I believe Casterly Rock will go to Jaime. But somehow it will be revealed he is Aerys bastard. Of course, there are too many Lannisters in Lanisport and elsewhere. But I believe the name "Lannister" will be "tainted". Probably means Tyrion will die too. He killed his father with only vengeance for justification.

Wait, you think he will be Jaime Hill? In that case he can not inherit and CR will go to Martyn (or Willem, I can't remember which one is alive). Tyrion is kinslayer and kingslayer, I don’t see him as Lord of CR.

I agree that after all this name Lannister will be despised for long time.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

41 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

As of ADWD, taking as a given that Cersei's line is out (because they're all gonna die and are disinherited besides), Martyn is the head of House Lannister of Casterly Rock, and then after him comes Janei (a baby girl) and then after her come the Freys. It is very, very possible that the Lannisters of Casterly Rock will be gone by series end.

There are a huge amount of Lannisters of Castery Rock left. Daven, his sisters, his uncles and aunts (and their possible children), his half uncle and his two children.
 

As Cat correctly points out: "Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house."

Any child or grandchild of Genna who wants to inherit the Rock would likely have to change their name to Lannister, like Joffrey Lydden once did, as there simply is no plausible explanation of how so many Houses have kept the same name for thousands of years without the odd descendant of a female member inheriting.

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I was speaking of Tywin. I believe Casterly Rock will go to Jaime. But somehow it will be revealed he is Aerys bastard. Of course, there are too many Lannisters in Lanisport and elsewhere. But I believe the name "Lannister" will be "tainted". Probably means Tyrion will die too. He killed his father with only vengeance for justification.

That is unlikely to happen in the Westerlands. A country they have ruled for thousands of years.

I even doubt it would be tainted elsewhere, this is just one war possibly not even the worst or most significant in the 300 years of Westeros history.

 

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

There are a huge amount of Lannisters of Castery Rock left. Daven, his sisters, his uncles and aunts (and their possible children), his half uncle and his two children.
 

As Cat correctly points out: "Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house."

Any child or grandchild of Genna who wants to inherit the Rock would likely have to change their name to Lannister, like Joffrey Lydden once did, as there simply is no plausible explanation of how so many Houses have kept the same name for thousands of years without the odd descendant of a female member inheriting.

Daven isn't a Lannister of Casterly Rock. He's a Lannister of Some Minor Unnamed Place, and is behind at least two unnamed brothers of Joanna in the line of succession.

While it's true that historically House Lannister has survived by having people marry in and take their name, that happened because Lannister was, at the time, the unambiguously more prestigious name. But the Freys aren't Lyddens. They're the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands. And the Lannisters have done a huge amount to damage their own name. If nothing else, keeping the name Frey would be Black Walder's preference, as saying, "We unseated the Lannisters" could help win over riverlander support.

This is far from guaranteed to occur (one of Devan's uncles could try to murder all of the Freys of Riverrun) but it's a very real possibility.

[Michael Mertyns]

2 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

They're the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands.

Littlefinger is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. The Freys just have Riverrun

[The Wolves]

3 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Daven isn't a Lannister of Casterly Rock. He's a Lannister of Some Minor Unnamed Place, and is behind at least two unnamed brothers of Joanna in the line of succession.

While it's true that historically House Lannister has survived by having people marry in and take their name, that happened because Lannister was, at the time, the unambiguously more prestigious name. But the Freys aren't Lyddens. They're the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands. And the Lannisters have done a huge amount to damage their own name. If nothing else, keeping the name Frey would be Black Walder's preference, as saying, "We unseated the Lannisters" could help win over riverlander support.

This is far from guaranteed to occur (one of Devan's uncles could try to murder all of the Freys of Riverrun) but it's a very real possibility.

The Freys(dumbasses)are not the Lord Paramounts of the Riverlands. That title was given to Littlefinger though I refuse to acknowledge anyone but a Tully preferably Edmure as the Lord of the Riverlands. 

[MinotaurWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

Littlefinger is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. The Freys just have Riverrun

Whoops, sorry for that slip-up! Still, they're the most powerful house in the Riverlands, since there are no Baelish forces in the riverlands.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

Daven isn't a Lannister of Casterly Rock. He's a Lannister of Some Minor Unnamed Place, and is behind at least two unnamed brothers of Joanna in the line of succession.

Both Daven and Joanna are Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Their father is Jason Lannister, younger brother of Lord Tytos Lannister. Jason had 7 legitimate children and an unknown amount of grandchildren who are all Lannisters of the Rock.

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

While it's true that historically House Lannister has survived by having people marry in and take their name, that happened because Lannister was, at the time, the unambiguously more prestigious name.

It hasn't just happened with the Lannisters but, logic dictates, a multitude of Houses over the thousands of years of their existence. There is no other real explanation how so many Houses (both grand and minor) have the same name thousands of years later.

And in the Westerlands the Lannister name is always going to be more prestigious than the Freys (or any other name TBH). The same would be true of the Stark name in the North and the Arryn name in the Vale.

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

But the Freys aren't Lyddens.

No, they are not. In the Westerlands their name is worth even less than the Lyddens (one of the most powerful Houses in the Westerlands).

These are different realms. A Mallister name will be more prestigious and carry more weight in the Riverlands than it will in Dorne.

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

They're the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands.

No, they are not. But even if they were or Genna was married to a Tully the Lannister name would still carry far more importance in the Westerlands.

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

And the Lannisters have done a huge amount to damage their own name.

lol no, they really have not. Not in the Westerlands. The Lannisters popularity in the North or the Riverlands does not dictate how the they are perceived in the West.

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

If nothing else, keeping the name Frey would be Black Walder's preference, as saying, "We unseated the Lannisters" could help win over riverlander support.

eh? What does Black Walder have to do with the conversation?

Just now, MinotaurWarrior said:

This is far from guaranteed to occur (one of Devan's uncles could try to murder all of the Freys of Riverrun) but it's a very real possibility.

lol no, it really is not a possibility.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

That is unlikely to happen in the Westerlands. A country they have ruled for thousands of years.

I even doubt it would be tainted elsewhere, this is just one war possibly not even the worst or most significant in the 300 years of Westeros history.

This is the greatest event since the Long Night 1.0. Possibly the WW will descend on Casterly Rock and Lanisport, and will kill everyone. Possibly Daenrys will descend on Casterly Rock and Lanisport with her Dragons, dothrakis and Ironborns and will burn and kill everyone with the name Lannister. and more. Many in her team have a grudge against the Lannisters. And the dothrakis need none.

[MinotaurWarrior]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Both Daven and Joanna are Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Their father is Jason Lannister, younger brother of Lord Tytos Lannister. Jason had 7 legitimate children and an unknown amount of grandchildren who are all Lannisters of the Rock.

Gerold Lannister was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, as he reigned in Casterly Rock. That man, Daven's great grandfather, was the most recent holder of that title in Daven's family tree. Either he's a Lannister of nowhere and his family has been unlanded for generations, or he's a Lannister of some minor unnamed holdfast.

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It hasn't just happened with the Lannisters but, logic dictates, a multitude of Houses over the thousands of years of their existence. There is no other real explanation how so many Houses (both grand and minor) have the same name thousands of years later.

 

There are actually tons of explanations. We see this in Bran's Chapter when discussing what to do about the extinguished line of ruling Hornwoods. House Lannister is the only case we've actually seen of a matrilineal marriage where the husband takes the wife's name.

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And in the Westerlands the Lannister name is always going to be more prestigious than the Freys (or any other name TBH). The same would be true of the Stark name in the North and the Arryn name in the Vale.

 

Perhaps the Royces, Durrandons, Gardeners, Casterly's and Hoares would have once said the same.

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No, they are not. In the Westerlands their name is worth even less than the Lyddens (one of the most powerful Houses in the Westerlands).

These are different realms. A Mallister name will be more prestigious and carry more weight in the Riverlands than it will in Dorne.

No, they are not. But even if they were or Genna was married to a Tully the Lannister name would still carry far more importance in the Westerlands.

lol no, they really have not. Not in the Westerlands. The Lannisters popularity in the North or the Riverlands does not dictate how the they are perceived in the West.

 

Your argument seems to come down to "lol no" so let me break it down to you:

• Tywin murdered two entire houses of bannermen
  • Tywin is no longer around to make this a threat that demands obedience. It's just a story of how dangerous it is to let yourself be ruled by lannisters
• Tywin ordered Elia and her children killed
  • This makes them hated by Dorne, fAegon, and Dany
• Tywin's children are all popularly regarded as monsters
  • Cersei is known to have committed incest and adultery
  • Jaime is the Kingslayer
  • Tyrion is a Kinslaying Kingslaying Imp
• Tywin's death is incredibly embarrassing and disarming. His death is being remembered as a joke.
• Cersei lost / will lose the crown for house (Baratheon-)Lannister. Making the House clearly on the decline.
• Kevan was a likspittle to a dead tyrant, and died before anyone could possibly come to respect him in and of himself.
• Lancel, Lord of Derry and heir to Casterly Rock, hated himself and his own family so much he forsook them for the Warrior's Sons, and has testified against them
• Daven, as Warden of the West, was unable to convince his commanders to follow his plan to storm the castle

You might say that none of that matters, because they have thousands of years of built up prestige, but that's clearly wrong, because Tytos was considered a joke. The House's whole prestige was built upon Tywin's legacy, which is turning to ash.

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eh? What does Black Walder have to do with the conversation?

 

Black Walder is the most likely / most heavily foreshadowed candidate for head of House Frey when Walder the Old dies. He wouldn't be able to dictate how house Frey of the Rock style themselves if Martyn dies, but the Lord of the Crossing and the Frey in Riverrun would certainly have some influence.

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lol no, it really is not a possibility.

Even if you believe the Lannisters have some enduring legacy, I can't see how you could call it impossible. Red Walder could secretly kill Martyn and Janei and proclaim the Freys as lords of Casterly rock regardless of whether or not it's a good idea, and given that house (Baratheon-)Lannister is losing the Iron Throne, even if the Westerlanders secretly pine for a Lannister ruler, fAegon, Dany, and Stannis would all disfavor Lannister rule.