Do Lannisters ever pay their debts?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Gerold Lannister was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, as he reigned in Casterly Rock.

No, he was a Lannister of Casterly Rock because that is the branch he hails from just like his grandsons Damion and Stafford Lannister are Lannisters of Casterly Rock.

What do you think Cat meant by this? "The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house."

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

That man, Daven's great grandfather, was the most recent holder of that title in Daven's family tree. Either he's a Lannister of nowhere and his family has been unlanded for generations, or he's a Lannister of some minor unnamed holdfast.

lol no, he is a Lannister of the Rock. http://36.media.tumblr.com/5273df5972660a2c64e8a37884120d41/tumblr_ne58r4tj6K1qc8n39o1_1280.png

Daven is as much a Lannister of the Rock as Tyrion is, he is just further back in the line of succession.

If you have a generation of five brothers and each of them has several children (sons?), after two or three generations you could find yourself with thirty potential heirs: there could be thirty people named Lannister or Frey, and that produces confict, because all of them are going to get involved in hereditary fights for the throne. That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III.

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

There are actually tons of explanations. We see this in Bran's Chapter when discussing what to do about the extinguished line of ruling Hornwoods.

They are not extinguished. There are other people of Hornwood blood still alive.

His own lady wife was a Hornwood, sister to the late Lord Halys, doubtless they recalled. "An empty hall is a sad one. I had a thought to send my younger son to Lady Donella to foster as her own. Beren is near ten, a likely lad, and her own nephew. He would cheer her, I am certain, and perhaps he would even take the name Hornwood . . ."

"If he were named heir?" suggested Maester Luwin.

 

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

House Lannister is the only case we've actually seen of a matrilineal marriage where the husband takes the wife's name.

We have seen plenty of cases of children taking their mothers name if their mother is a ruler. The children of Lady Mormont, Lady Waynood and Lady Oakheart are all named after their mothers rather than their fathers.

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

Your argument seems to come down to "lol no" so let me break it down to you:

• Tywin murdered two entire houses of bannermen

lol no. This is actually a celebrated act in the West. Tywin brought peace to the Westerlands, this is hardly something that is going to bring shame on the name.

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

• Tywin ordered Elia and her children killed

This is not actually public knowledge. That is why Oberyn risked his own life to try and get a confession.

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

• • This makes them hated by Dorne, fAegon, and Dany

What on earth do the people of Dorne's feelings on the Lannisters have to do with the Westerlands population?

Pretty poor argument.

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

•  
• Tywin's children are all popularly regarded as monsters
  • Cersei is known to have committed incest and adultery
  • Jaime is the Kingslayer
  • Tyrion is a Kinslaying Kingslaying Imp

And?

Tyrion has been the imp his entire life, Jaime has been the Kingslayer for almost two decades and there has been little suggestion that this has tarnished the name of Lannister in the Westerlands.

There will have been more shameful Lannisters in the past, Gerold (Tywin's grandfather) was suspected in the deaths of his brother and niece yet there is no suggestion that the name was so damaged that they would need to rebrand.

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

• Tywin's death is incredibly embarrassing and disarming. His death is being remembered as a joke.

lol so?

Tywin died on the toilet so they are going to have to abandon a name they have had for thousands of years?

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

• Cersei lost / will lose the crown for house (Baratheon-)Lannister. Making the House clearly on the decline.

Yes, House Baratheon will be on the decline. Joffrey and Tommen are Baratheons, not Lannisters.

The Lannisters hold on the Westerlands is actually much stronger than it was under the rule of Tytos Lannister.

 

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

• Kevan was a likspittle to a dead tyrant, and died before anyone could possibly come to respect him in and of himself.

I think you are blurring your own personal opinion with that of the denizens of Westeros.

He was clearly respected, as shown by the Small Council making him the Regent. Can you provide some quotes from the series showing how he was not respected?

And what on earth does this have to do with argument? That the Lannisters will have to abandon their name because Kevan was not respected? This is pretty weak sauce.

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

• Lancel, Lord of Derry and heir to Casterly Rock, hated himself and his own family so much he forsook them for the Warrior's Sons, and has testified against them

Which has what to do with the Westerland people?

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

• Daven, as Warden of the West, was unable to convince his commanders to follow his plan to storm the castle

Also what does this have to do with the Westerland people and the Lannister name?

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

You might say that none of that matters, because they have thousands of years of built up prestige, but that's clearly wrong, because Tytos was considered a joke. The House's whole prestige was built upon Tywin's legacy, which is turning to ash.

lol no. Even as something of a Tywin fan I am not going to say something as idiotic as this.

The prestige of House Lannister has little to do with Tywin Lannister. He is just another Lord in a long line of Lords/Kings who have ruled the West.

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Black Walder is the most likely / most heavily foreshadowed candidate for head of House Frey when Walder the Old dies. He wouldn't be able to dictate how house Frey of the Rock style themselves if Martyn dies, but the Lord of the Crossing and the Frey in Riverrun would certainly have some influence.

lol no. The idea that the Freys of the Twins will have more influence than Daven, the current Warden of the West, Damion Lannister, the current Castellan of the Rock or the many Lords of the Westerlands with family connections to the Lannisters is ridiculous.

You made a poor point but somehow have only made it seem more ridiculous by trying to explain it.

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Even if you believe the Lannisters have some enduring legacy, I can't see how you could call it impossible.

Did I call it impossible? Nothing is impossible in a fictitious, fantasy world. It is however hugely unlikely.

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

Red Walder could secretly kill Martyn and Janei and proclaim the Freys as lords of Casterly rock regardless of whether or not it's a good idea,

He could do that, but without changing his name he is likely to face competition from an actual Lannister.

Tywin married his cousin Joanna to limit a possible succession crisis. A Frey taking the Rock is going to face challengers from rival Lannister claimants.

Had the Sansa and Tyrion marriage worked out (or any other person she married) and Sansa took back the North her children would be named Stark as that name carries far more weight in the North than any other. The same applies to the Arryns and Lannisters in their realms.

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

This is the greatest event since the Long Night 1.0.

For the book reader. To the people of Westeros, who are mostly unaware of the events at the Wall, this is just another Blackfyre war or Dance of the Dragons.

 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

For the book reader. To the people of Westeros, who are mostly unaware of the events at the Wall, this is just another Blackfyre war or Dance of the Dragons.

Now, yes. But sooner or later they will see the difference.

[MinotaurWarrior]

41 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

No, he was a Lannister of Casterly Rock because that is the branch he hails from just like his grandsons Damion and Stafford Lannister are Lannisters of Casterly Rock.

What do you think Cat meant by this? "The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house."

 

lol no, he is a Lannister of the Rock. http://36.media.tumblr.com/5273df5972660a2c64e8a37884120d41/tumblr_ne58r4tj6K1qc8n39o1_1280.png

Daven is as much a Lannister of the Rock as Tyrion is, he is just further back in the line of succession.

If you have a generation of five brothers and each of them has several children (sons?), after two or three generations you could find yourself with thirty potential heirs: there could be thirty people named Lannister or Frey, and that produces confict, because all of them are going to get involved in hereditary fights for the throne. That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III.

Stafford was either unlanded, or held an unnamed castle. If he held another castle, Daven would be a Lannister "Of that other Castle." If Stafford was unlanded, he'd just be a Lannister.

That Gerold, a Lannister of Casterly Rock, had four sons, means he was damnably fertile. Though the truth of the matter is slightly off topic, because that quote comes from when Cat assumed Stafford was Tywin's nephew, in which case she was bemoaning Tytos of House Lannister of Casterly Rock's fertility.

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They are not extinguished. There are other people of Hornwood blood still alive.

His own lady wife was a Hornwood, sister to the late Lord Halys, doubtless they recalled. "An empty hall is a sad one. I had a thought to send my younger son to Lady Donella to foster as her own. Beren is near ten, a likely lad, and her own nephew. He would cheer her, I am certain, and perhaps he would even take the name Hornwood . . ."

"If he were named heir?" suggested Maester Luwin.

 

 

The legitimate ruling line of people named Hornwood was extinguished.

 

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We have seen plenty of cases of children taking their mothers name if their mother is a ruler. The children of Lady Mormont, Lady Waynood and Lady Oakheart are all named after their mothers rather than their fathers.

 

Lady Oakheart's parentage and husband's lineage are unknown. Lady Waynwood's husbands name is unknown. Maege may not even have been married.

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lol no. This is actually a celebrated act in the West. Tywin brought peace to the Westerlands, this is hardly something that is going to bring shame on the name.

 

Tywin celebrates it, as do some of his dogs. Others were cowed by it, when the man responsible still lived.

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This is not actually public knowledge. That is why Oberyn risked his own life to try and get a confession.

 

It's publicly known, but unproven. Oberyn risked his life to try and get a public confession.

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What on earth do the people of Dorne's feelings on the Lannisters have to do with the Westerlands population?

Pretty poor argument.

 

If / when Martyn dies, fAegon, and Dorne's feelings will certainly be relevant, as they have large armies. If Dany has landed by then, her feelings will also be relevant, because she will have a large army, and Dragons.

Red Walder Frey (as an example of a Frey who could take Casterly Rock) would prefer to style himself a Frey when dealing with those people, rather than taking the name Lannister. 
 

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And?

Tyrion has been the imp his entire life, Jaime has been the Kingslayer for almost two decades and there has been little suggestion that this has tarnished the name of Lannister in the Westerlands.

There will have been more shameful Lannisters in the past, Gerold (Tywin's grandfather) was suspected in the deaths of his brother and niece yet there is no suggestion that the name was so damaged that they would need to rebrand.

 

After Gerold shamed the house and passed (removing the threat of further murders) came Tytos, who faced open mockery and revolt. And neither Gerold nor Tytos brought on half the shame of Tywin's line.

Tywin himself says that the Imp brings shame on the House, Jaime's ill-repute spans the seven Kingdoms (we never hear an "except the westerlands!"), and Cersei is Cersei.

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lol so?

Tywin died on the toilet so they are going to have to abandon a name they have had for thousands of years?

On it's own? Of course not. But him dying on the toilet with a whore in his bed, and then stinking up the sept of baelor so bad his grandson vomited at his feet makes his death into a joke, and makes mock of his legacy. And his legacy would be the only reason for a Frey to change his name to Lannister.

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Yes, House Baratheon will be on the decline. Joffrey and Tommen are Baratheons, not Lannisters.

They style themselves with both houses heraldry, and throughout the series, everyone consistently refers to their faction as the Lannisters. Nobody is going to be fooled into thinking their loss of the throne isn't a loss for House Lannister. Hell, nobody is even going to think they were Baratheons at all.

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The Lannisters hold on the Westerlands is actually much stronger than it was under the rule of Tytos Lannister.

Was Tywin's hold on the Westerlands stronger than Tytos's? Yes. But Tywin is dead now, so he can't threaten to kill people's entire families.

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I think you are blurring your own personal opinion with that of the denizens of Westeros.

He was clearly respected, as shown by the Small Council making him the Regent. Can you provide some quotes from the series showing how he was not respected?

And what on earth does this have to do with argument? That the Lannisters will have to abandon their name because Kevan was not respected? This is pretty weak sauce.

Upon further review, I was slightly mixing up Kevan's introduction with that of Ser Harys Swyft. That's the one who's literally called a lickspittle. Kevan just "seldom "had a thought" that Lord Tywin had not had first." That's the Lannister's own impression of him, consistently across the siblings and throughout the books. Kevan is his brother's man, without any sort of independent legacy that might contribute to a decision for or against a Frey restyling himself as a Lannister.

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Which has what to do with the Westerland people?

 

Lancel's renunciation of his own family is huge. First of all, he is himself a westerlander, but more importantly when Westerlanders hear that the man who was heir to Casterly Rock (and currently would be Lord Paramount) thinks his family has sinned too gravely, that absolutely has huge deleterious effects on the family name.

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Also what does this have to do with the Westerland people and the Lannister name?

 

Daven's Lannister name is insufficient to compel the obedience of his captains. Full stop. This is actually by far the most relevant thing here, since it's your assertion that a Frey ruling in Casterly rock would need to re-style himself as a Lannister to maintain the loyalty of the Westerlands, and you're the one who suggested that Daven could contest the rightful Frey rule of Casterly Rock by relying upon his name.

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lol no. Even as something of a Tywin fan I am not going to say something as idiotic as this.

The prestige of House Lannister has little to do with Tywin Lannister. He is just another Lord in a long line of Lords/Kings who have ruled the West.

 

I would kindly request that you not use insulting language such as "idiotic" when discussing ideas presented by myself or other forum-goers. I don't mind you dismissing my ideas with a laugh - an atmosphere of amusement is a great atmosphere to have - but I don't think insulting language is conducive to the sort of environment we want in this thread or in others.

That being said, before Tywin took charge of his father's army and marched on the Tarbecks and Reynes, house Lannister was openly mocked, it's credits were ignored, and prominent bannermen felt comfortable rebelling openly. Sure, Lannisters had ruled for ~ 8,000 years, but the old name didn't mean the Lords of the Rock had their men's loyalty. Whereas, at the time, House Tyrell, who have only been Lords for half as long as the Freys, were not facing such rebellion.

The songs of Lann the Clever aren't what Tywin used to rule his realm. It was the Rains of Castamere he had played to enforce obedience.

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lol no. The idea that the Freys of the Twins will have more influence than Daven, the current Warden of the West, Damion Lannister, the current Castellan of the Rock or the many Lords of the Westerlands with family connections to the Lannisters is ridiculous.

You made a poor point but somehow have only made it seem more ridiculous by trying to explain it

 

If Martyn and Janei die, or if Martyn dies and Janei is betrothed to a Frey, then the titles of Lord of the Rock and Lord Paramount of the Westerlands lawfully pass to the Freys. That's simply a fact. It's how Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture works.

Daven, Damion, or any other miscellaneous lords of the Westerlands could try to usurp those titles from the Freys, sure. I wouldn't put it past Daven to just say, "Hey, I'd rather have all the gold in casterly rock, rather than not having all the gold in casterly rock." But I see no reason to think that has anything to do with the last names involved here. Daven isn't going to usurp or not usurp those titles based on how the Freys choose to style themselves.

If there is some hostility between the Freys of Casterly Rock and Daven, then that's exactly when the opinions of the Freys of Riverrun, the Freys of the Twins, fAegon, Dany, Dorne, and miscellaneous other lords come in, because that war wouldn't be isolated to just the lords of the Westerlands. At very least, Daven (or another Lannister usurper) would need to bring the Freys in the Riverlands to kneel to relinquish their claims. But it's unlikely to be even that contained, because there are at least two incoming invading armies who want to take over the Westerlands and hate the Lannisters (fAegon and Dany), and both of those invading armies will be trying to court the favor of the Dornish, who mass in the streets to protest how few Lannisters Doran is killing.

If Devan is trying to usurp what the Frey's to be theirs by rights, they're much better off keeping the Frey name. Because they can tell the Targaryens, "the Lannisters killed your family. We never even fought Rhaegar!" and they can tell the Dornish, "We're not lannisters! If you want to kill some Lannisters, go over to Daven's camp!" and they can tell Stannis (if some freak chance makes him relevant) "Hey, remember how the Lannisters tried to unlawfully usurp your titles from you? Well, they're up to it again! My legal name is Frey, and my legal inheritence is the West!"

If Devan isn't trying to usurp their claim on the Rock, then their style doesn't really matter.

 

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 Did I call it impossible? Nothing is impossible in a fictitious, fantasy world. It is however hugely unlikely.

 

Yes you did.

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lol no, it really is not a possibility.

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He could do that, but without changing his name he is likely to face competition from an actual Lannister.

Tywin married his cousin Joanna to limit a possible succession crisis. A Frey taking the Rock is going to face challengers from rival Lannister claimants.

 

If, say, Devan would try to usurp Red Walder Frey, why wouldn't he try to usurp Red Walder Lannister?

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Had the Sansa and Tyrion marriage worked out (or any other person she married) and Sansa took back the North her children would be named Stark as that name carries far more weight in the North than any other. The same applies to the Arryns and Lannisters in their realms.

 

Do you have any evidence to support this, outside of some claim to parallelism? The Lannisters and the Starks are the only regional rulers from the Age of Heros. The Arryns Usurped the Royces 4,000 years ago, House Tyrell were servants 300 years ago, the Tullys were vassals 300 years ago (under a short-lived Hoare kingdom), the Greyjoys were the third-kingliest of the Ironborn, and the Martells were humble Andal invaders who swore allegiance to stronger First Men houses until they usurped them about 700 years ago. Ancient history is no shield.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Stafford was either unlanded, or held an unnamed castle. If he held another castle, Daven would be a Lannister "Of that other Castle." If Stafford was unlanded, he'd just be a Lannister.

He is a Lannister of the Rock. It is even said so in the books.

"Ser Stafford Lannister, it's said." He turned to gaze out over the rivers, his red-and-blue cloak stirring in the breeze.

"Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house.

 

You don't need to be a Lord to a 'Lannister of the Rock', you simply need to be a Lannister. Staffords brother is the current Castellan of the Rock. How exactly is he not a Lannister of the Rock?

 

These are some strange rules you have invented where Martyn Lannister, grandson of a Lord of the Rock, is considered one of them but Stafford, grandson of a Lord of the Rock, is not.

 

And of course the World book seems to strongly suggest that Stafford is a Lannister of the Rock

 

Two of the captives were Lannisters of Lannisport, distant kin to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, but the third was a young squire, Stafford Lannister, the eldest son and heir of Lord Tytos’s late brother, Ser Jason.

 

As do the appendices which list Stafford as part of Tywin's family rather than a vassal.

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

That Gerold, a Lannister of Casterly Rock, had four sons, means he was damnably fertile. Though the truth of the matter is slightly off topic, because that quote comes from when Cat assumed Stafford was Tywin's nephew, in which case she was bemoaning Tytos of House Lannister of Casterly Rock's fertility.

lol that is ridiculous!

Tytos had five children, Cat has five children and was still young enough for more. By your definition the Starks are also a "damnably large and fertile house."

Are you really saying this?

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

The legitimate ruling line of people named Hornwood was extinguished.

 

lol no, no it was not. It was that closest living members next in line were female and there was no clear heir. It would have needed the Lord/King of the North to decide the situation.

Berena Hornwood is very much alive.

It is not claimed that there are no live living Hornwoods, just that there are females who come first. This is a little similar to the Arryn situation where despite a multitude of Arryns around the Vale, Harry (grandson) of Jon Arryns sister, is the heir.

 

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Lady Oakheart's parentage and husband's lineage are unknown. Lady Waynwood's husbands name is unknown. Maege may not even have been married.

I guess they all must have married family members then, right? I guess Lady Lyessa Flint also married a cousin, as well as Lady Mary Mertens or that the Stokeworths were happy to lose their name with both  female heirs marrying none Stokeworths.

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Tywin celebrates it, as do some of his dogs. Others were cowed by it, when the man responsible still lived.

Tywin has been dead for two books and the Westerlands relationship with the Lannisters has not changed.

This is what we are getting at, the people of the Westerlands thoughts on the Lannister name. There is zero evidence that it has been sufficiently tarnished that the Westerland people would rather have a Frey (perpetrators of the Red Wedding) ruling them over a Lannister.

You made a dumb comment and for some reason rather than accept you made a dumb comment want to carry on arguing that the Frey name will be of a similar standing to the Lannister name in the Westerlands. It doesn't.

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

It's publicly known, but unproven. Oberyn risked his life to try and get a public confession.

No, it is known by some insiders. It is not widespread information, that is why Oberyn wanted the confession.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

If / when Martyn dies, fAegon, and Dorne's feelings will certainly be relevant, as they have large armies. If Dany has landed by then, her feelings will also be relevant, because she will have a large army, and Dragons.

lol they died almost twenty years ago.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Red Walder Frey (as an example of a Frey who could take Casterly Rock) would prefer to style himself a Frey when dealing with those people, rather than taking the name Lannister. 

Maybe he would, but the smallfolk and lords are going to be far more accepting of a person ruling them being named Lannister like Daven rather than some ginger Frey.

Succession crises are a regular problem in a feudal society. An outsider taking over a powerful institution like that is highly unlikely. Considering the Warden and Castellan are both Lannisters married into other powerful Westerland Houses then the idea of Freys dictating terms seems hugely unlikely (though not impossible as it is still a fantasy series with flying dragons and the ice spiders).

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

After Gerold shamed the house and passed (removing the threat of further murders) came Tytos, who faced open mockery and revolt. And neither Gerold nor Tytos brought on half the shame of Tywin's line.

The idea that the Lannister name is so shameful that the Frey name will be seen as more prestigious is ridiculous.

Are you really under the impression that the Frey name is seen as more prestigious anywhere outside of the Twins than the Lannister name is?

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Tywin himself says that the Imp brings shame on the House, Jaime's ill-repute spans the seven Kingdoms (we never hear an "except the westerlands!"), and Cersei is Cersei.

Despite the shame of Jaime and the Imp he was still able to marry his daughter to the King of Westeros. Can't have affected them that bad.  In fact the Lannister name has been tarnished so badly that Daven Lannister was a preferable husband for the only daughter of Lord Redwyne than the heir of Horn Hill was.

And Cersei being Cersei did not stop the prospect of marrying her son to gain the largest army in Westeros.

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

On it's own? Of course not. But him dying on the toilet with a whore in his bed, and then stinking up the sept of baelor so bad his grandson vomited at his feet makes his death into a joke, and makes mock of his legacy. And his legacy would be the only reason for a Frey to change his name to Lannister.

Which of the Lords of the Westerlands who were present at the funeral and came to take home or the ones Jaime sees in the Riverlands regard Tywin as a joke.

So far this seems to be more how you view the character rather than characters from the actual Westerlands view him.

 

And frankly, many people defecate after dying. This would be common knowledge in the medieval world, really it should be common knowledge in our times. Also corpses rarely smell. While its true that Tywin was especially putrid I'm not sure this is going to really have that much of an effect on his legacy.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

They style themselves with both houses heraldry, and throughout the series, everyone consistently refers to their faction as the Lannisters. Nobody is going to be fooled into thinking their loss of the throne isn't a loss for House Lannister. Hell, nobody is even going to think they were Baratheons at all.

They are Baratheons or bastards, it is impossible for them to be Lannisters. Their enemies claim otherwise, their supporters claim they are.

If they should lose the Throne it will be quite easy for the Westerland Lannisters to distance themselves from these bastards just like the Targaryens were able to distance themselves from the Blackfyres.

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Was Tywin's hold on the Westerlands stronger than Tytos's? Yes. But Tywin is dead now, so he can't threaten to kill people's entire families.

If that is all you think he did in the Westerlands?

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Upon further review, I was slightly mixing up Kevan's introduction with that of Ser Harys Swyft. That's the one who's literally called a lickspittle.

Well done.  Though usually when people realize they are wrong that is the end of it rather than trying to justify why they were not really wrong.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Kevan just "seldom "had a thought" that Lord Tywin had not had first." That's the Lannister's own impression of him,

No, that was Tyrions thoughts on his uncle. And you are kind of misrepresenting what he actually said

Ser Kevan was his brother's vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion's no more than show.

The sheep were bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they'd been shorn in

Tywin and Kevan ruled and allowed the Small Council to believe they had a say in it.  Later, when trying to convince Aegon to attack his sister he also states:

My uncle Kevan would make a passably good regent if someone pressed the duty on him, but he will never reach for it.

Jaime makes the point that Kevan is the best qualified man to be the Hand

Kevan should be Tommen's Hand. Harys Swyft is a toad, and my sister is a fool if she thinks elsewise.

While Daven thinks he should have been the Warden or the Hand

"I don't doubt your sister needs you. Why did she send off Kevan? I thought she'd make him Hand."

"He would not take it." He was not as blind as I was. "Kevan should be the Warden of the West. Or you. It's not that I'm not grateful for the honor, mind you, but our uncle's twice my age and has more experience of command. I hope he knows I never asked for this."

While Genna points out that he was the best option to be Hand while roasting the current Small Council

"Cersei has put some bastard on the council too, and a kettle in the Kingsguard. She has the Faith arming and the Braavosi calling in loans all over Westeros. None of which would be happening if she'd had the simple sense to make your uncle the King's Hand."

Kevan is held in high regard by the other Lannisters. I don't really know how that could have been missed and not only is held in high regard by his family but by many others as he was made Regent by the Small Council after Cersei's arrest and Varys had to resort to assassinating him as he was liable to make the realm strong enough to beat Aegon.

"But none in this room, thankfully. This pains me, my lord. You do not deserve to die alone on such a cold dark night. There are many like you, good men in service to bad causes … but you were threatening to undo all the queen's good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen's rule. So …"

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Lancel's renunciation of his own family is huge.

He has rejected the reward of the Darry lands and told the truth about the Queen, he hasnt actually said anything negative about the Lannisters.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Daven's Lannister name is insufficient to compel the obedience of his captains. Full stop. This is actually by far the most relevant thing here

eh? Where do you get this idea from? How do you think his army traveled from the Westerlands to the Riverlands if his army was not obedient to him?

As Warden of the West he has no control over the Freys or the Riverland army there at the behest of the Crown and the hostages at the Twins. He is actually outnumbered there, but there is zero evidence that he does not have the obedience of his own men.  By all means provide it.

And you seem to be confusing suggestions with orders.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I would kindly request that you not use insulting language such as "idiotic" when discussing ideas presented by myself or other forum-goers. I don't mind you dismissing my ideas with a laugh - an atmosphere of amusement is a great atmosphere to have - but I don't think insulting language is conducive to the sort of environment we want in this thread or in others.

Fine , I will tone it down to ridiculous.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

That being said, before Tywin took charge of his father's army and marched on the Tarbecks and Reynes, house Lannister was openly mocked, it's credits were ignored, and prominent bannermen felt comfortable rebelling openly. Sure, Lannisters had ruled for ~ 8,000 years, but the old name didn't mean the Lords of the Rock had their men's loyalty.

But they did have the loyalty of their men. Do you think Tywin beat the Reyns and Tarbecks by himself with no support from other Westerland Houses?

 

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

The songs of Lann the Clever aren't what Tywin used to rule his realm. It was the Rains of Castamere he had played to enforce obedience.

Wait, I have seen these suggestions before and they are never backed up with any real evidence. That Tywin was a Tyrant who only ruled through fear, which seems to ignore the good he did for the Westerlands through putting an end to rebellions and the obvious prosperity they had under his rule.

He has been dead for two books and yet we have seen no indication that the Lords of the Westerlands relationship to the Lannisters is any different.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

If Martyn and Janei die, or if Martyn dies and Janei is betrothed to a Frey, then the titles of Lord of the Rock and Lord Paramount of the Westerlands lawfully pass to the Freys. That's simply a fact. It's how Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture works.

lol no, that is not how it works. GRRM goes into great deal of how there are few laws in Westeros that are settled in stone, so no, it is not and  never been a Fact. Sorry!

GRRM:Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory.

3 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Daven, Damion, or any other miscellaneous lords of the Westerlands could try to usurp those titles from the Freys, sure. I wouldn't put it past Daven to just say, "Hey, I'd rather have all the gold in casterly rock, rather than not having all the gold in casterly rock." But I see no reason to think that has anything to do with the last names involved here. Daven isn't going to usurp or not usurp those titles based on how the Freys choose to style themselves.

Sure he is. The Lannisters take great pride in their names (pretty mich every single House in Westeros does). Every living Lannister is going to take offense to this, as would the Lords of the Westerlands who are not going to take kindly to a House from the Riverlands ruling them over the Lannisters (or one of their own).

I really can't comprehend how you think the Frey name is anywhere near the same level of prestige in the Westerlands than the Lannister name. I am sorry if you are sensitive to the word idiotic, but this is an idiotic argument to make.

 

[Walda]

@thelittledragonthatcould I am sorry if you are sensitive to the word thuggish, but that ^ is a thuggish argument. 

Please don't call people names or blame them for your lack of comprehension. Your arguments are no clearer, better supported, or stronger. And the abuse makes me think you know this.

[WSmith84]

Even if we accept the argument that the Lannister name is tainted to the point that the lords of the West would welcome a new name to rule them as true (which I don't), why would anyone think that the Freys would stand a chance? They are the orchestrators and perpetrators of the Red Wedding. Their name has become an insult in the Vale. Why choose a House that, it could be argued far more strongly, has tainted its name also?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

9 hours ago, Walda said:

@thelittledragonthatcould I am sorry if you are sensitive to the word thuggish, but that ^ is a thuggish argument. 

I'm not sensitive to the word. I shaved my hair last weekend and have been quite enjoying  being  called 'thuggish' looking.

Quote

Please don't call people names or blame them for your lack of comprehension. Your arguments are no clearer, better supported, or stronger. And the abuse makes me think you know this.

lol OK chuck!

 

Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Or just here to whine?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Even if we accept the argument that the Lannister name is tainted to the point that the lords of the West would welcome a new name to rule them as true (which I don't), why would anyone think that the Freys would stand a chance? They are the orchestrators and perpetrators of the Red Wedding. Their name has become an insult in the Vale. Why choose a House that, it could be argued far more strongly, has tainted its name also?

There was also more men from House Frey than any other House when Robb was paying the Lannisters 'back in kind'. The idea that the people of the Westerlands are going to be in favor of the Frey name over the Lannister name is just ridiculous.

The Lannister name ruling Winterfell or Riverrun is equally ridiculous even before the events of the current series. Any heir of Tyrion and Sansa would have to call themselves Stark to have a chance of maintaining their Lordship.

 

There is a list of names that could rule the Westerlands, the majority of them coming from the many established and old families of the Westerlads. The Freys are not one of them. And really, check my post history, I am actually one of the biggest Frey fans on this site, but logic is logic.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On 2016/07/10 at 9:35 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

No, he was a Lannister of Casterly Rock because that is the branch he hails from just like his grandsons Damion and Stafford Lannister are Lannisters of Casterly Rock.

What do you think Cat meant by this? "The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house."

 

lol no, he is a Lannister of the Rock. http://36.media.tumblr.com/5273df5972660a2c64e8a37884120d41/tumblr_ne58r4tj6K1qc8n39o1_1280.png

Daven is as much a Lannister of the Rock as Tyrion is, he is just further back in the line of succession.

If you have a generation of five brothers and each of them has several children (sons?), after two or three generations you could find yourself with thirty potential heirs: there could be thirty people named Lannister or Frey, and that produces confict, because all of them are going to get involved in hereditary fights for the throne. That's what originated the War of the Roses; An excess of candidates for the throne, all of them descendants of Edward III.

 

They are not extinguished. There are other people of Hornwood blood still alive.

His own lady wife was a Hornwood, sister to the late Lord Halys, doubtless they recalled. "An empty hall is a sad one. I had a thought to send my younger son to Lady Donella to foster as her own. Beren is near ten, a likely lad, and her own nephew. He would cheer her, I am certain, and perhaps he would even take the name Hornwood . . ."

"If he were named heir?" suggested Maester Luwin.

 

 

We have seen plenty of cases of children taking their mothers name if their mother is a ruler. The children of Lady Mormont, Lady Waynood and Lady Oakheart are all named after their mothers rather than their fathers.

 

lol no. This is actually a celebrated act in the West. Tywin brought peace to the Westerlands, this is hardly something that is going to bring shame on the name.

This is not actually public knowledge. That is why Oberyn risked his own life to try and get a confession.

 

What on earth do the people of Dorne's feelings on the Lannisters have to do with the Westerlands population?

Pretty poor argument.

 

And?

Tyrion has been the imp his entire life, Jaime has been the Kingslayer for almost two decades and there has been little suggestion that this has tarnished the name of Lannister in the Westerlands.

There will have been more shameful Lannisters in the past, Gerold (Tywin's grandfather) was suspected in the deaths of his brother and niece yet there is no suggestion that the name was so damaged that they would need to rebrand.

 

lol so?

Tywin died on the toilet so they are going to have to abandon a name they have had for thousands of years?

 

Yes, House Baratheon will be on the decline. Joffrey and Tommen are Baratheons, not Lannisters.

The Lannisters hold on the Westerlands is actually much stronger than it was under the rule of Tytos Lannister.

 

I think you are blurring your own personal opinion with that of the denizens of Westeros.

He was clearly respected, as shown by the Small Council making him the Regent. Can you provide some quotes from the series showing how he was not respected?

And what on earth does this have to do with argument? That the Lannisters will have to abandon their name because Kevan was not respected? This is pretty weak sauce.

Which has what to do with the Westerland people?

Also what does this have to do with the Westerland people and the Lannister name?

lol no. Even as something of a Tywin fan I am not going to say something as idiotic as this.

The prestige of House Lannister has little to do with Tywin Lannister. He is just another Lord in a long line of Lords/Kings who have ruled the West.

lol no. The idea that the Freys of the Twins will have more influence than Daven, the current Warden of the West, Damion Lannister, the current Castellan of the Rock or the many Lords of the Westerlands with family connections to the Lannisters is ridiculous.

You made a poor point but somehow have only made it seem more ridiculous by trying to explain it.

Did I call it impossible? Nothing is impossible in a fictitious, fantasy world. It is however hugely unlikely.

He could do that, but without changing his name he is likely to face competition from an actual Lannister.

Tywin married his cousin Joanna to limit a possible succession crisis. A Frey taking the Rock is going to face challengers from rival Lannister claimants.

Had the Sansa and Tyrion marriage worked out (or any other person she married) and Sansa took back the North her children would be named Stark as that name carries far more weight in the North than any other. The same applies to the Arryns and Lannisters in their realms.

 

For the book reader. To the people of Westeros, who are mostly unaware of the events at the Wall, this is just another Blackfyre war or Dance of the Dragons.

 

Littledragon

I have no dog in this fight, and might even agree with your point of view here, if I bothered to read this whole thread.

But as a neutral observer in this case I just have to mention that your use of "lol" in every second response, as if an opposing argument somehow comes across as laughable to you, is damn irritating. I don't know if you realise that you do it, or whether you perhaps intend it to come across less antagonistic than it actually does, but I can tell you from personal experience that it brings out far more aggressive responses to your points than would otherwise be the case.

Maybe that is an intentional strategy on your part, and if so, that is your free choice. But it is something that puts a sting in debates that could otherwise be far more civil and pleasant.

 

[WSmith84]

30 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

There was also more men from House Frey than any other House when Robb was paying the Lannisters 'back in kind'. The idea that the people of the Westerlands are going to be in favor of the Frey name over the Lannister name is just ridiculous.

The Lannister name ruling Winterfell or Riverrun is equally ridiculous even before the events of the current series. Any heir of Tyrion and Sansa would have to call themselves Stark to have a chance of maintaining their Lordship.

There is a list of names that could rule the Westerlands, the majority of them coming from the many established and old families of the Westerlads. The Freys are not one of them. And really, check my post history, I am actually one of the biggest Frey fans on this site, but logic is logic.

Plus if there's a new name ruling the West after everything, it's probably going to be down to the whim of a new monarch and not because of some 'taint' on the Lannister name. And I can't really think of any of the competing monarchs that would choose the Freys to rule the West.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

49 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

snip

 

lol - assume whatever you want that to mean.

[The Wolves]

21 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Plus if there's a new name ruling the West after everything, it's probably going to be down to the whim of a new monarch and not because of some 'taint' on the Lannister name. And I can't really think of any of the competing monarchs that would choose the Freys to rule the West.

Does anyone honestly think that the Lannisters will lose the West cause I doubt it? 

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Does anyone honestly think that the Lannisters will lose the West cause I doubt it? 

I don't think so. Might not be Tywin's descendants ruling it, but I expect whomever does will be calling themself Lannister, one way or another.

[MinotaurWarrior]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Even if we accept the argument that the Lannister name is tainted to the point that the lords of the West would welcome a new name to rule them as true (which I don't), why would anyone think that the Freys would stand a chance? They are the orchestrators and perpetrators of the Red Wedding. Their name has become an insult in the Vale. Why choose a House that, it could be argued far more strongly, has tainted its name also?

They'd never be chosen by westerlanders above a lawful Lannister heir, but they are the lawful heirs after Martyn and Janei (taking Cersei's prophecy as a given). You may say that people don't care about the law, but that's not quite true. The Freys are all obsessed with inheritance laws, Stannis is as well, Dany cared enough to insist everyone call her brother King, both her and Aegon are coming back to defend their supposed birthright, and Dornish people seem to have this whole rididiculous belief that they can magic up a kingdom by saying "Dornish law!" Still, of course others could try and usurp the Frey's lawful claim - westeros is ruled by the sword, not by the law - but to settle that the Lannister-born usurpers would need to either bring the rest of the Freys to kneel, or kill off the Freys of riverrun, both of which would necessarily spill out of the westerlands.

Outside of the westerlands, the Riverlanders,  Dornish, Stannis the Longshot,  and the two invading targaryens all hate the Lannisters. As well, the  Tyrells are about to hate the Lannisters (bc Margery), and have already plotted to kill two (Jeoff and Tyrion were both targets of the purple wedding). Of those listed groups who really hate the Lannisters, only the Riverlanders have reason to be angry at the Freys. Stannis will care a lot about the dishonor, but the Freys only killed traitors in his eyes. If it came to war between a Frey Lawful Claimant, the Frey would lose a lot of potential friends by calling himself a Lannister.

If it doesn't come to war, house Frey of Casterly has a few reasons to keep styling themselves as Freys. First, there's unity with House Frey of the Twins, House Frey of Riverrrun, and perhaps some minor castles I've overlooked (who's the Lord of Darry?). Second, there's prickly Frey pride. Finally, there's all the aforementioned armies who hate the Lannisters.

And what would determine whether or not there's a war of succession probably isn't going to be their style. People like Daven are presumably going to make a calculated decision as to whether or not they can take all the gold in Casterly rock for themselves. If Daven or Damion (sp) think they can Kill a Frey-born "Lannister" to take the rock, they probably will. 

I'm not saying that the Lannisters are guaranteed to lose the rock. Hell, Martyn could turn out to be the greatest and longest reining Lord of Casterly Rock in all of history, with the Frey claim to the Rock never coming up. All I'm saying is that there is a plausible path towards house Lannister losing the Rock, and all of this talk of the Lannisters' invulnerable position is exaggerated.

There's a reason Martyn Lannister and Tion Frey were placed in the center of the first trilogy despite having no personalities, and even if Martyn rules forever, we should all be thinking "what the heck went wrong that that guy became Lord of the Rock, with only a three year old infant girl ahead of the Freys in the line of succession.

[WSmith84]

7 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

They'd never be chosen by westerlanders above a lawful Lannister heir, but they are the lawful heirs after Martyn and Janei (taking Cersei's prophecy as a given). You may say that people don't care about the law, but that's not quite true. The Freys are all obsessed with inheritance laws, Stannis is as well, Dany cared enough to insist everyone call her brother King, both her and Aegon are coming back to defend their supposed birthright, and Dornish people seem to have this whole rididiculous belief that they can magic up a kingdom by saying "Dornish law!" Still, of course others could try and usurp the Frey's lawful claim - westeros is ruled by the sword, not by the law - but to settle that the Lannister-born usurpers would need to either bring the rest of the Freys to kneel, or kill off the Freys of riverrun, both of which would necessarily spill out of the westerlands.

Outside of the westerlands, the Riverlanders,  Dornish, Stannis the Longshot,  and the two invading targaryens all hate the Lannisters. As well, the  Tyrells are about to hate the Lannisters (bc Margery), and have already plotted to kill two (Jeoff and Tyrion were both targets of the purple wedding). Of those listed groups who really hate the Lannisters, only the Riverlanders have reason to be angry at the Freys. Stannis will care a lot about the dishonor, but the Freys only killed traitors in his eyes. If it came to war between a Frey Lawful Claimant, the Frey would lose a lot of potential friends by calling himself a Lannister.

But what allies are they going to gain by calling themselves Frey? The only allies they can hope to muster with the Frey name are basically other Freys. The Riverlanders might hate the Lannisters, but they hate the Freys a good deal more. Ditto with the North. Stannis will likely consider the Freys traitors twice over (just like Jaime does). The Tyrells might hate specific Lannisters, but they're unlikely to hate the entire Lannister family for the actions of a few and almost certainly aren't going to care about what name the Frey-Lannister uses. I doubt either Aegon or Daenerys are stupid enough to make themselves unpopular by supporting a Frey takeover of the West.

The bolded is rather the thing though; people might hate Tywin, or Cersei, or Jaime etc. etc. but they are generally despised as individuals. The Freys are now despised as a House. Their name has become an insult in the Vale, their own allies don't respect them and the Faith are calling the Red Wedding a crime against the Gods. Sounds to me like the name Frey has far more of a stain on it than the name Lannister.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 

Outside of the westerlands, the Riverlanders,  Dornish, Stannis the Longshot,  and the two invading targaryens all hate the Lannisters.

And? These are other countries, they can choose to try and stage a military coup and support someone to try and take over but the people of other nations feelings on a ruling House of another rarely matters. The Riverlanders don't like the Lannister, boo fucking hoo.  Do you think the Frech smallfolk liked the Plantagenets?

And it seems like the Dornish hatred of the Lannisters is a little overstated. The Martells certainly, but there is a Dornish Master of Arms for the Crown who dies in the Kings Landing riots, one of the Tywins notable commanders is Mallor the Dornishman while the Brave Companions has quite a few Dornishmen in their ranks.

Neither Stannis, Aegon or Dany have talked about replacing the Lannisters or any other ruling House they don't like. It seems bizarre that any of them would see replacing the Lannisters with the Freys as anything other than a ridiculous notion.

Should a grandson or son of Genna inherit the Rock then he would take the Lannister name. The idea that the children of Genna and Emmon, who resided at the Rock and took Tywin's side over Walder's side in the war of the Five Kings would not understand the huge difference in prestige that that those two names have in the Westerlands is a little ridiculous. And if they are dumb enough, luckily we still have a still living Genna who would smack some sense into them.

 

 

 

 

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

49 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

But what allies are they going to gain by calling themselves Frey? The only allies they can hope to muster with the Frey name are basically other Freys.

Even if that's literally the case, and the Lannister / Frey styling choice is otherwise totally neutral, "other Freys" means something. They have Riverrun and the Twins, three confirmed vassal houses around the twins, and thousands of soldiers. In Feast we see the following exchange:

Quote

Ser Harys shuffled through some papers. "The next matter . . . we have had a letter from Lord Frey putting forth some claims . . ."

"How many lands and honors does that man want?" snapped the queen. "His mother must have had three teats.

After already establishing that House Lannister of Darry (while mostly based on the victor-spoils distribution system) is using Amrei's Darry Blood to reinforce their claim, as there are no more lordly Darry's around. So, we know that Walder's wide-net strategy worked in at least one confirmed case, and that he was trying for more, though we don't know how many he succeeded in getting. Plus there are all of the crazy far-flung Freys, like the alchemist and the septons and the outlaw. 

Quote

The Riverlanders might hate the Lannisters, but they hate the Freys a good deal more.

Do you have quotes for this that I might have missed? All throughout ACoK and ASoS, we see the folk of the riverlands complaining about how they hate the Lannisters and the Starks (Lions and Wolves) equally. Lannisters burnt raped and tortured the riverlands seemingly without provocation, importing pedophiles and maimers from across the narrow see as if their own men weren't evil enough. The Freys murdered a monster, a warg, and his wolf army. 

Certain Riverlanders, like Clement Piper, are hostile towards the Freys for keeping hostages, and the Blackwoods are diehard loyalists, though it's a zero sum game between the Blackwoods and the Brackens. That's all I could find, searching AFFC and ADwD for "Frey" and skimming for riverlands frey hate.

Quote

Ditto with the North.

Yeah, the northerners hate the Freys much more. Totally agreed. They might even have saved a bit of Frey Flesh leftover from the pies, just so their little cannibal king can acquire the taste.

Quote

Stannis will likely consider the Freys traitors twice over (just like Jaime does).

Yup. And dishonorable besides. But 'the bad doesn't erase the good', and inheritance law is good for.... some reason? The Freys of Riverrun / (hypothetically) Casterly Rock weren't actually part of the Red Wedding, but Stannis might still advocate crushing their hands for sending letters, or beheading the adults because of reason. He'd still oppose Lannisters usurping their titles, if Martyn and Janei died and some lannister such as Daven tried to take the Rock.

Quote

The Tyrells might hate specific Lannisters, but they're unlikely to hate the entire Lannister family for the actions of a few and almost certainly aren't going to care about what name the Frey-Lannister uses.

Right. Just like Rickard hated Jaime and knew nothing of Martyn, but tried to kill him anyway.

Quote

I doubt either Aegon or Daenerys are stupid enough to make themselves unpopular by supporting a Frey takeover of the West.

Dany has been cursing house Lannister from her very first chapter, and took over Slaver's Bay with similar dirty tricks - the "gift of wine" to the Second Sons under the auspices of a three-day truce were foreshadowing of the Red Wedding - with the express goal of saying, "screw that" to ancient houses that murdered infants. And there's this, from ADwD:

Quote

"Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper's dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty. The guilt …" The word caught in her throat. Hazzea, she thought, and suddenly she heard herself say, "I have to see the pit," in a voice as small as a child's whisper. "Take me down, ser, if you would."

As for fAegon... I mean, we don't know that much about him. But Jon Con consistently thinks of "The Lannisters" collectively as his enemy. Tywin had fAegon's "mom" raped to death and Jaime killed his "grandfather." The Freys carefully avoided ever fighting the Targaryens, and while Jon doesn't think highly of them, he wouldn't be marching a sellsword company to take over Westeros if he was unwilling to side with men of ill repute.

For both of them, if it comes to a Frey-Lannister war, the Freys then become, potentially, the house that unseated for all time three out of the five great rebel houses. They're the greatest allies House Targaryen has ever had.

Quote

The bolded is rather the thing though; people might hate Tywin, or Cersei, or Jaime etc. etc. but they are generally despised as individuals. The Freys are now despised as a House. Their name has become an insult in the Vale, their own allies don't respect them and the Faith are calling the Red Wedding a crime against the Gods. Sounds to me like the name Frey has far more of a stain on it than the name Lannister.

The Freys are despised as a house in the North. They've got a famous stain on their honor elsewhere. There's a big difference. They never killed Elia, her little children, and Oberyn. They never killed Rhaegar or Aerys. They never tried to have Margery killed. They never killed the Tarbecks and The Reynes.

Cersei has had twice as many religions declare her acts to have been abominations against god. People spit when they say Jaime's name, and tyrion is the Imp. The Lannisters have done enough that they have individual ill-reputes, that's true. But the fact that people know why they hate Jaime in particular isn't likely to make them merciful towards randos like Martyn and Daven. If Daven walks up to a Sandsnake and says, "Hey, just so you know, I'm not responsible for killing your dad, or your aunt, or your cousins, or for raping your aunt, and I've never banged my sister in violation of the laws of god and man, but the lawful heir to the Rock is part of the same family that killed some people you don't care about at a wedding, so, uh, don't kill me?" The Sandsnake is likely to kill him.

 

Now, again, I just want to emphasise, I'm not trying to argue that there will be a Frey-Lannister war over the westerlands, and I'm certainly not arguing that it would be a guaranteed win for the Freys. The whole armed conflict thing is just a tangent to a tangent. The point is that there are paths the story could follow where the Lannisters lose the rock. For all we know, Red Walder (the one who's in place in Casterly Rock to possibly murder Martyn and kill / kidnap Janei) is a bizarrely moral guy who would never use violence for personal profit. If Martyn dies (if), I think the most likely way for the Freys to hold the Westerlands isn't by conquest, but rather by peacefully inheriting it, because the next Lannister in line is married to a Frey anyway, and after him the line of succession are two females about whom we literally only know their names, and then two unnamed men.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 For all we know, Red Walder (the one who's in place in Casterly Rock to possibly murder Martyn and kill / kidnap Janei) is a bizarrely moral guy who would never use violence for personal profit.
 

Red Walder is currently a Page/Squire at the Rock, likely in service to Damion Lannister, the current Castellan of the Rock. He is unlikely to be able to gather the support needed to install himself or his nephews as Lord of the Rock.

...when Gerold III died without male issues, a council crowned his only daughter's husband, Ser Joffery Lydden, who took the Lannister name and became the first Andal to rule the Rock.

A seat as large and rich as Casterly Rock is going to have a large Household of retainers, equivalents to the Stark's Pooles, Cassels and Mollens who would need to support the new Lord.

Should there be some kind of war of the Lions in the Westerlands (and it is more than possible that it may) then the prime benefactors will be

• Damion Lannister; he (or his father) is next in line after Genna's heirs, he is currently in charge of the Rock, he is married to a Crakehall, his mother was a Lannister of Lannisport, grandmother a Stackspear and his daughter married to Lord Jast and an unmarried son who could be used to shore up further Westerland alliances to garner support
• Daven Lannister; currently the Warden of the West, commanding the Westerland armies at home since the death of his father Stafford. Support would come from his mother and grandmothers side of the families (Presters and Leffords) as well as his sisters, uncles and aunts. Has the classic Lannister looks

The Freys however are at a disadvantage as Emmon and Cleos at least were not respected at the Rock.

The Lannister blood runs thin in this one. Cleos was his Aunt Genna's son by that dullard Emmon Frey, who had lived in terror of Lord Tywin Lannister since the day he wed his sister. When Lord Walder Frey had brought the Twins into the war on the side of Riverrun, Ser Emmon had chosen his wife's allegiance over his father's. Casterly Rock got the worst of that bargain - Jaime

With even suggestions that Red Walder and his brother Lyonel may even be bastards (as both Cleos and Tion had Frey features)

It was hard not to feel contemptuous of Emmon Frey. He had arrived at Casterly Rock in his fourteenth year to wed a lioness half his age. Tyrion used to say that Lord Tywin had given him a nervous belly for a wedding gift. Genna has played her part as well. Jaime remembered many a feast where Emmon sat poking at his food sullenly whilst his wife made ribald jests with whatever household knight had been seated to her left, their conversations punctuated by loud bursts of laughter. She gave Frey four sons, to be sure. At least she says they are his. No one in Casterly Rock had the courage to suggest otherwise, least of all Ser Emmon.

It is difficult to see how the Freys would garner enough support to not only take the Rock but change the status quo and rebrand the rulers of the Rock. To rule they would need to embrace their Lannister heritage, not distance themselves about it.