Arthur Dayne VS Oberyn Martell VS Robert Baratheon

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

No. Common sense would be reading what is written.

Can I ask why you don't think Rhaegar wounded Robert in their fight?

Because there is absolutely zero text proof about Rhaegar's power as a non tourney fighter.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

20 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

Did Ned ever meet Oberyn, or even know who he was? Just because someone is unknown doesn't mean they can't be exceptionally skilled. Even Tyrion, as well learned as he was, knew very little of Oberyn's fighting skills prior to watching him face the Mountain.

Didn't say the contrary, in fact imo Oberyn is just one tier below the greats (so to me he is exceptionally skilled)... based on book feats (knights killed, circumstances in wich they fought, character quotes) and/or grrm's statements, Prime Robert and Dayne are above Oberyn...

Fighting a good fight against the Mountain is no small feat, Oberyn did it with the only weapon he could have a chance, and with poison to slow is oponent every scratch he took, great feat nontheless... still below the other 2 though

No, Ned did not knew Oberyn or the majority of other great warriors, but if he was a legendary warrior george would find a way to tell us by giving him feats or quotes who would put him in the other 2's level, he just told us in a way we can confirm that Oberyn is very good indeed and with lots of tricks and knowledge of fighting

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

18 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

  Robert was a great warrior, but he is getting hyped WAY too much.

Not when we count book kills, author quotes and phisical atributes and weapon skills for armoured combat Bricks...

It´s really simple, no one aside from Barristan (who fought 20+ more years) has more feats of personal combat compared to Bob, Dayne is equal to Barristan per grrm, ned fought and killed Dayne and still considered Robert the better warrior and Arthur the better knight... for prime Robert to be over-hyped then the others are as well, or even more so

[BricksAndSparrows]

21 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Because there is absolutely zero text proof about Rhaegar's power as a non tourney fighter.

This is from book the first book. It is when Eddard is telling Robert about finding Jamie on the Iron Throne after he kill the Mad King.

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him.

Here is my problem with this type of thinking: There is this belief that Robert was so amazing, it is inconceivable that Rhaegar could have even harmed him in the fight. So people start re imagining what is written very plainly.

Robert was a better fighter. A great fighter. But people need to stop thinking he was Chuck Norris.

I can't remember which chapter it is, but there is a great Selmy POV where he is talking how you never know how things are going to go in a battle.

 

[The Frosted King]

Robert does great against the Dornishmen, but the chance of one of the weapons being poisoned is iffy......

In a duel, my gut tells me the Stag sweeps them both. 

Arthur Dayne might be an unparalleled swordsman, but that doesn't mean he's superior to a savant with a hammer.

The romanticism of the sword is rampant all throughout these boards.

Oberyn is sick with his spear, but i see Robert or Dayne catching a thrust the way Jorah caught the arakhn against his armor, and either smashing or slicing the spear in two.

[BricksAndSparrows]

5 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Not when we count book kills, author quotes and phisical atributes and weapon skills for armoured combat Bricks...

It´s really simple, no one aside from Barristan (who fought 20+ more years) has more feats of personal combat compared to Bob, Dayne is equal to Barristan per grrm, ned fought and killed Dayne and still considered Robert the better warrior and Arthur the better knight... for prime Robert to be over-hyped then the others are as well, or even more so

What are his book kills? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I can only find Marc Grafton, Lord Fell, and Rhaegar (which is apparently a hollow victory since the general consensus is that even wounding Robert was beyond the scope of his ability.)

Don't forget that it is likely that Howland helped Ned with Ser Arthur...

I tend to think they are ALL sorta overhyped, by the people that remember them. We see a lot of that in the books. When Selmy says he could cut through all the Kingsguard like cutting through cake, I don't think that should be taken absolutely literally. Or When Jamie tells the assembled kingsguard that Ser Arthur could slay all 5 with his left hand while pissing with his right.

We see many examples of characters embellishing prowess in their memories. It's one of the things that make these books so realistic. Ser Arlan remembers breaking more lances with Breakspear than he actually did. And According to Jamie, he could have beaten Robert Baratheon, Ser Arthur Dayne, or the Mountain in single combat. These chapters are written from peoples POV's and GRRM has made it very clear that these memories are not always precise.

The reason I lean towards Oberyn as the victor, is because I have seen him fight. And even though he lost, what he did with the Mountain was incredible, in my opinion.

I tend to think that with the truly great warriors (Robert B., Selmy, Dayne, Drogo, Oberyn, etc..) the circumstances of the battle, the variables of the day and terrain, are more significant than the disparity in their skill.

[Kal-L]

50 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Robert was a better fighter. A great fighter. But people need to stop thinking he was Chuck Norris.

Mate, you're fighting a lost battle.

[[Deleted]]

5 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

What are his book kills? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I can only find Marc Grafton, Lord Fell, and Rhaegar (which is apparently a hollow victory since the general consensus is that even wounding Robert was beyond the scope of his ability.)

Don't forget that it is likely that Howland helped Ned with Ser Arthur...

I tend to think they are ALL sorta overhyped, by the people that remember them. We see a lot of that in the books. When Selmy says he could cut through all the Kingsguard like cutting through cake, I don't think that should be taken absolutely literally. Or When Jamie tells the assembled kingsguard that Ser Arthur could slay all 5 with his left hand while pissing with his right.

We see many examples of characters embellishing prowess in their memories. It's one of the things that make these books so realistic. Ser Arlan remembers breaking more lances with Breakspear than he actually did. And According to Jamie, he could have beaten Robert Baratheon, Ser Arthur Dayne, or the Mountain in single combat. These chapters are written from peoples POV's and GRRM has made it very clear that these memories are not always precise.

The reason I lean towards Oberyn as the victor, is because I have seen him fight. And even though he lost, what he did with the Mountain was incredible, in my opinion.

I tend to think that with the truly great warriors (Robert B., Selmy, Dayne, Drogo, Oberyn, etc..) the circumstances of the battle, the variables of the day and terrain, are more significant than the disparity in their skill.

This is all true. We've only mostly HEARD about what Dayne and Bobby B. could do, but we actually SAW Oberyn take down a 7 foot-tall man-beast warrior with relative ease, only losing in the end because of his confession obsession. If Oberyn had fought the Mountain with a clear head and the intent to kill as quickly as possible, the fight probably would have been over twice as fast.

I don't doubt Dayne and Bobby B. were great warriors. But I don't get why so many people are disrespecting Oberyn's accomplishments on here. He took down THE MOUNTAIN, people! And he was TOYING with him! If that doesn't impress you, I don't know what would.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

15 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

What are his book kills? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I can only find Marc Grafton, Lord Fell, and Rhaegar (which is apparently a hollow victory since the general consensus is that even wounding Robert was beyond the scope of his ability.)

Don't forget that it is likely that Howland helped Ned with Ser Arthur...

I tend to think they are ALL sorta overhyped, by the people that remember them. We see a lot of that in the books. When Selmy says he could cut through all the Kingsguard like cutting through cake, I don't think that should be taken absolutely literally. Or When Jamie tells the assembled kingsguard that Ser Arthur could slay all 5 with his left hand while pissing with his right.

We see many examples of characters embellishing prowess in their memories. It's one of the things that make these books so realistic. Ser Arlan remembers breaking more lances with Breakspear than he actually did. And According to Jamie, he could have beaten Robert Baratheon, Ser Arthur Dayne, or the Mountain in single combat. These chapters are written from peoples POV's and GRRM has made it very clear that these memories are not always precise.

The reason I lean towards Oberyn as the victor, is because I have seen him fight. And even though he lost, what he did with the Mountain was incredible, in my opinion.

I tend to think that with the truly great warriors (Robert B., Selmy, Dayne, Drogo, Oberyn, etc..) the circumstances of the battle, the variables of the day and terrain, are more significant than the disparity in their skill.

- Don´t sweat it, you´re not sounding like a smartass at all, in fact i agree that when warriors are at the same level fight it can go either way...

- Not all kills are mentioned, just notorious ones like skilled knights, Grafton; Fell; Mooton (+6 men) plus almost killing Jon Connington (a very skilled swordsman who wounded hoster tully and killed the very best the vale had to offer denys arryn) while wounded with a sword; Rhaegar on horseback; reapeted mentions of him making other adult knight seem like ragdolls on melee's, of course not counting the mountain of bodies he destroyed in his numerous battles (that´s subjective, like the other greats)

- It´s not a large list because grrm doesn't waste time with those things unless they are woth mentioning it (proof of it is that only Barristan has as many notorious names on his kill list mentioned in the books)

- Sure, Barristan thinks he can cut KG's like peasants, Robert thinks no one could stand against him, the Jaime quote i still think he refers only to the ones alive at that moment, not Dayne or Robert but i can see him believing it's possible

- truly, in my opinion, Oberyn stands a tier below, his strategy was very smart but it was the only weapon he could have a chance and he used poison, so i consider it a great feat (gregor is a freak that only guys like bob or sandor can trade blows without ko'ing, but also the biggest target to strike), but not one to put him on legendary status

- yes, i know ned killed dayne with help but he surely fought him and after it considers robert a better warrior and a worse knight (he admired both men, and had no problem saying bob was a worse knight, honour/chivalry are part of a knight's menu)

- you think the margin of selmy way, and i never dispute that... i only give my opinion on what i've read of the characters, about them and george´s descriptions, thinking on that and what favours armoured combat 1v1, a guy like Robert to me is designed as the perfect genetic model with fantasy power (who on top of that has legendary prowess with a stupidily dangerous weapon) and guys like Dayne, Barri and Jaime are sword masters who can make those advantages turn into equal bets via a lucky precise cut or two (very difficult in plate armour but VS swords can be a bitch)...

- and to make it clear, imo oberyn is better than many, many other warriors, but the other two chosen for this duel, again imo, are in the top 3 ever (even so, only minor details separate a guy like oberyn from dayne)

- oberyn's choices against gregor (poisoned lance) demonstrates keen martial knowledge, so he is very good, i just think he is a step behind the other 2, but your point is as valid as my own... the margin of selmy is the most valid point ever, just not fun on 1v1 topics

[Jon's Queen Consort]

17 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

This is from book the first book. It is when Eddard is telling Robert about finding Jamie on the Iron Throne after he kill the Mad King.

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him.

Here is my problem with this type of thinking: There is this belief that Robert was so amazing, it is inconceivable that Rhaegar could have even harmed him in the fight. So people start re imagining what is written very plainly.

Robert was a better fighter. A great fighter. But people need to stop thinking he was Chuck Norris.

I can't remember which chapter it is, but there is a great Selmy POV where he is talking how you never know how things are going to go in a battle.

Like it or not GRRM has told us that Robert was unstoppable. Now if you don't like it then ok, but trying to prove that Robert wasn't for a wound he may or may not had gotten from Rhaegar is in my opinion pointless.

16 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Mate, you're fighting a lost battle.

This, The books and GRRM has told us that Robert was unstoppable.

 

[khal drogon]

While I think of Robert I think of a brutish warrior with not much tactics. He believes in blunt force. I don't think he could stand in front of Ser Arthur Dayne.

Oberyn is skilled and he is smart but not that great. But he use poisoned weapons so he would be deadly.

Robert's warrior skills are overrated.

[BricksAndSparrows]

12 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

This is all true. We've only mostly HEARD about what Dayne and Bobby B. could do, but we actually SAW Oberyn take down a 7 foot-tall man-beast warrior with relative ease, only losing in the end because of his confession obsession. If Oberyn had fought the Mountain with a clear head and the intent to kill as quickly as possible, the fight probably would have been over twice as fast.

I don't doubt Dayne and Bobby B. were great warriors. But I don't get why so many people are disrespecting Oberyn's accomplishments on here. He took down THE MOUNTAIN, people! And he was TOYING with him! If that doesn't impress you, I don't know what would.

This is how I feel, as well. But if one of the other contenders turned out to be the victor, I wouldn't have a hard time accepting it. These guys are human. There are a lot of references to the small folk viewing some warriors (Selmy, for one) as "half a god," and I think that extends to some of the fans.

It isn't unreasonable to believe that Oberyn would bring the same follies to a fight with Robert or Arthur, as he brought to his battle with Gregor. I can accept any opinion, but I hate the absolutism.

12 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

- and to make it clear, imo oberyn is better than many, many other warriors, but the other two chosen for this duel, again imo, are in the top 3 ever (even so, only minor details separate a guy like oberyn from dayne)

- oberyn's choices against gregor (poisoned lance) demonstrates keen martial knowledge, so he is very good, i just think he is a step behind the other 2, but your point is as valid as my own... the margin of selmy is the most valid point ever, just not fun on 1v1 topics

Fair enough. Like I was saying to Aegonzo, though I believe Oberyn outfought the Mountain, he did die, and it was no one's fault but his own. With the "margin of Selmy," I believe that the fighter's personality traits and focus (whatever it was that cost Oberyn the fight,) are nearly as big a factor as their skill at arms and more significant than things like terrain or circumstance. It is perfectly rational to think those flaws would cost him his life should he face Robert or Dane. Or it's even fair just to believe his skills were beneath those of the contenders. 

One point about Oberyn vs. the Mountain. The poison played a part in Gregor's death (...ish?) but it wasn't what brought him down. Gregor was pinned to the ground with that spear.

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Like it or not GRRM has told us that Robert was unstoppable. Now if you don't like it then ok, but trying to prove that Robert wasn't for a wound he may or may not had gotten from Rhaegar is in my opinion pointless.

This, The books and GRRM has told us that Robert was unstoppable.

 

"May or may not have gotten from Rhaegar" ... You view Robert the way the smallfolk view Selmy.

Trying to prove a fighters ability, based on their previous battles is EXACTLY the point of this thread.

All I am trying to do is give some perspective. No. I will not concede that Robert was unstoppable. Because he wasn't. No one is. That is what makes these books interesting. People are not invincible. They get beaten.

I think it is bizarre that it's not enough to say Robert was great or one of the best. The worship must be so complete as to eliminate even the possibility that he was ever in danger. Well, it boggles the mind to wonder who was able to wound Robert. Someone did. I hope you are at least willing to admit that.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, BricksAndSparrows said:

"May or may not have gotten from Rhaegar" ... You view Robert the way the smallfolk view Selmy.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

1 minute ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Trying to prove a fighters ability, based on their previous battles is EXACTLY the point of this thread.

Only you don't. You try to prove Robert's ability by a wound.

1 minute ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

All I am trying to do is give some perspective. No. I will not concede that Robert was unstoppable. Because he wasn't. No one is. That is what makes these books interesting. People are not invincible. They get beaten.

That is your opinion which happens to have no textual proof.

2 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I think it is bizarre that it's not enough to say Robert was great or one of the best. The worship must be so complete as to eliminate even the possibility that he was ever in danger. Well, it boggles the mind to wonder who was able to wound Robert. Someone did. I hope you are at least willing to admit that.

I am not saying that he couldn't be wounded. What I am saying is that someone's fighting power cannot be changed by a wound.

[Jasta11]

I think people underestimate Robert. Unlike Gregor, he is said to be a highly skilled fighter, on top of his immense size, speed and strength. He's be an even more fearsome foe to duel.

A lot depends on Dawn's cutting power. Is it simply a sharper than usual greatsword, or some sort of lightsaber and goes through plate like butter? In the latter case, I can see Dayne winning handily. In the former, it's an even match, Dayne having the speed and skill, Robert having the strength and proper weapon to fight a heavily armored opponent.

Oberyn doesn't really enter the equation IMO. He was fully prepared to fight Gregor, but both Robert and Dayne are far more skilled, he won't be able to dance around them as easily, and speed is his only real advantage.

[[Deleted]]

13 hours ago, khal drogon said:

While I think of Robert I think of a brutish warrior with not much tactics. He believes in blunt force. I don't think he could stand in front of Ser Arthur Dayne.

Oberyn is skilled and he is smart but not that great. But he use poisoned weapons so he would be deadly.

Robert's warrior skills are overrated.

Robert was supposed to be nigh unstoppable in battle. A smaller version of the Mountain, but with more tact and skill.

[Kharn]

#1 - Dayne.

#2 - Robert & Oberyn.

P.S. - Oberyns spear would be poisoned because that is what he does (poison master).

[khal drogon]

3 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

Robert was supposed to be nigh unstoppable in battle. A smaller version of the Mountain, but with more tact and skill.

He had some skills but he was not unstoppable. That was all propaganda.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

55 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

He had some skills but he was not unstoppable. That was all propaganda.

You based that on text or just on your own wishful thinking?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

3 hours ago, khal drogon said:

He had some skills but he was not unstoppable. That was all propaganda.

Agree, no one is unstoppable, Robert, Dayne, Barristan, Jaime, Dragons no one... some skills? not less than dayne for example, or are swords the only weapons in medieval combat? if so then sure, bob is worse than dayne with a sword and much better with a warhammer and h2h since he is a lot stronger and bjj wasn´t around

the basis of Robert being all brute force is impossible by reading his book feats, brute force alone cannot make you deliver so much kills with warhammer and sword against renowned knights in so many different situations... we have a pov character who knew, fought against/with and admired the 2 tell us who was the best warrior and the best knight, we have the author confirming Robert had legendary prowess with a weapon deadlier than a sword, we have more feats on bob than any other aside barri who fought 20+ years more, on different kinds of dueling, different weapons AND wounded/not wounded kills, while dayne has the smilling knight and a comparison between him and barristan (wich is like me comparing lebron with curry, there´s still jordan around)... if robert is propaganda what is the basis on the belief dayne is better? a comparison between him and a knight who´s not robert? i'm not being a jerk here but i'm trying to understand how Bob is propaganda and dayne or any other aren´t more so...

 

[The Young_Lion]

Dayne is miles ahead of the others: even Jaime, who Brienne says could destroy any knight alive, talks of him like a god. Robert is quite overrated - ok, he defeated Rhaegar, and he was very strong, but there is little evidence that he was a truly great warrior. Also, a war hammer is a rubbish weapon for single combat - no reach and very heavy and slow. Oberyn is clearly very good, but while he could kill the mountain, he would find it harder to defeat someone with dawn, which is very light and has great reach. I expect a Robert vs Oberyn would be similar to Tyrion's trial, and although Robert was probably quicker than Gregor, the poor reach of his war hammer would make him the underdog.

And to those who say that HR beat Dayne, what happened is unclear, and it is quite possible that Howland simply persuaded Dayne that Ned was Jon's only chance of survival

Edit: changed 'probable' to 'possible' as it is speculation

.'. Dayne>Martell>Baratheon