Do you consider Jon a good swordfighter?

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Good, above average and with potencial to be very good, just not legendary... Jon is much more an all around soldier, wich helps A LOT to survive in planetos

[khal drogon]

He is good with an advantage of his Valyrian steel sword.

[Cragen]

14 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

I agree with the majority in this thread.

I don't think Loras Tyrell would have struggled with Mance Rayder the way Jon Snow did. 

I think you underestimate Mance, Loras wouldn't have chance against him. I think Loras is overrated fighter. With lance on the horse he is probably best, but I didn't read anything to make me think he is something special with sword.

Jon have potential, he will get more strength and his body will develop in 4-5 years. But it's difficult to compare him with top tier fighters.

[Kal-L]

1 hour ago, Cragen said:

I think you underestimate Mance, Loras wouldn't have chance against him. I think Loras is overrated fighter. With lance on the horse he is probably best, but I didn't read anything to make me think he is something special with sword.

Jon have potential, he will get more strength and his body will develop in 4-5 years. But it's difficult to compare him with top tier fighters.

GRRM disagrees with you.

Jon has potential to do what ? He is a good swordsman but nothing special, a physical growth won't make him a top fighter and at the end I'm not even sure we'll get the chance to see him 5 years later.

[Moriath]

Jon is pretty good for his age. He has the advantage of that bererk rage which makes him pretty powerful (which hints at his potential). He is also able to stand up against Mance (the best swordfighter of Nights Watch) and is on par with Iron Temmet, who is one of the best fighters in NW. There's no way he'd be able to win against someone like Bronn or Jaime (pre-Hoat), but he's on his way to getting there

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think he is good, yes. But certainly not elite level.

Of course, Martin made him good enough to win the fights that matter, under circumstances that will just happen to contribute to his victory or survival. I somehow doubt he will end his character arc being killed in a duel against another human fighter. That would be an unsatisfactory outcome in any case.

I find the above a pity, because unless Martin goes out of his way to keep Jon from ever facing a better swordsman in a life and death situation, he will be forced to create plot armor to save Jon every time he should lose to a better warrior. Thus reducing the suspension of disbelief just a tad more.

If Jon is supposed to represent the "Warrior" in this story, then make him an elite level warrior, dammit. Else don't keep him alive through plot manipulation. Eddard's survival against Arthur Dayne comes to mind. How many times can you repeat such lucky outcomes before it becomes unbelievable?

EDIT

Just to be clear, I don't mind if Jon ends up being a skinchanger/swordsman who develops the ability to partially warg into an opponent during a duel, causing him to lose partial control of his body, similar to how Varamyr interfered with Thistle or whatever her name was. If Jon is able to win every swordfight in that manner, then I'm fine with it. You engage in a fight to win it, not to give the other guy a fair chance.

But for Jon to win by happenstance or luck against superior swordsmen will grow tired quickly.

 

[Cragen]

6 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

GRRM disagrees with you.

Jon has potential to do what ? He is a good swordsman but nothing special, a physical growth won't make him a top fighter and at the end I'm not even sure we'll get the chance to see him 5 years later.

Then GRRM failed to show Loras swordsmanship in the books, I remember him get his ass kicked by Brien, almost killed by Mountain, he said that Garlan is better then him. On the other hand, Mance spend his life fighting against other Wildlings, he subdued Thenns and other clans with his sword, during his fight against Jon he showed exceptional strength, stamina and speed, he was faster with great sword then Jon with long sword. I don't see why people just write of Wildlings and Northerners fighting skills.

[Cragen]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think he is good, yes. But certainly not elite level.

Of course, Martin made him good enough to win the fights that matter, under circumstances that will just happen to contribute to his victory or survival. I somehow doubt he will end his character arc being killed in a duel against another human fighter. That would be an unsatisfactory outcome in any case.

I find the above a pity, because unless Martin goes out of his way to keep Jon from ever facing a better swordsman in a life and death situation, he will be forced to create plot armor to save Jon every time he should lose to a better warrior. Thus reducing the suspension of disbelief just a tad more.

If Jon is supposed to represent the "Warrior" in this story, then make him an elite level warrior, dammit. Else don't keep him alive through plot manipulation. Eddard's survival against Arthur Dayne comes to mind. How many times can you repeat such lucky outcomes before it becomes unbelievable?

EDIT

Just to be clear, I don't mind if Jon ends up being a skinchanger/swordsman who develops the ability to partially warg into an opponent during a duel, causing him to lose partial control of his body, similar to how Varamyr interfered with Thistle or whatever her name was. If Jon is able to win every swordfight in that manner, then I'm fine with it. You engage in a fight to win it, not to give the other guy a fair chance.

But for Jon to win by happenstance or luck against superior swordsmen will grow tired quickly.

 

I this time in story there is lack of elite swordsman.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Cragen said:

I this time in story there is lack of elite swordsman.

Interesting. It is true that Dayne, Barristan, Gregor, Jaime, Sandor etc. are all either dead, maimed or past their best.

Still, you have the Lyn Corbrays, Gerold Dayne's and Garlan Tyrells of this world remaining. I guess it is plausible that Jon never faces any of them in battle. I still wonder what the point of his excessive combat training is then, if he is never to use it against an elite level warrior.

[Cragen]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Interesting. It is true that Dayne, Barristan, Gregor, Jaime, Sandor etc. are all either dead, maimed or past their best.

Still, you have the Lyn Corbrays, Gerold Dayne's and Garlan Tyrells of this world remaining. I guess it is plausible that Jon never faces any of them in battle. I still wonder what the point of his excessive combat training is then, if he is never to use it against an elite level warrior.

But Jon have special ability when it comes death or life situations. He is able to tap into berserk rage. We see it during his training with Iron Emmett, they have similar skills, but in moments of rage Jon easily disarmed him and beat crap out of him. Jon have also survivors instinct that can help a lot in real combat.

[Kal-L]

3 minutes ago, Cragen said:

Then GRRM failed to show Loras swordsmanship in the books, I remember him get his ass kicked by Brien, almost killed by Mountain, he said that Garlan is better then him. On the other hand, Mance spend his life fighting against other Wildlings, he subdued Thenns and other clans with his sword, during his fight against Jon he showed exceptional strength, stamina and speed, he was faster with great sword then Jon with long sword. I don't see why people just write of Wildlings and Northerners fighting skills.

He didn't fail anything, Loras came second in a melee of 150 Knights and only lost to Brienne after she used a particularly unconventional move while he was dominating her. He was also said to have distinguished himself during the battle of the Blackwater along with his brother who is by the way one of the best warriors of Westeros. Loras never fought the Mountain he wasn't armed.

 

[Kal-L]

17 minutes ago, Cragen said:

But Jon have special ability when it comes death or life situations. He is able to tap into berserk rage. We see it during his training with Iron Emmett, they have similar skills, but in moments of rage Jon easily disarmed him and beat crap out of him. Jon have also survivors instinct that can help a lot in real combat.

You just contradict yourself. Jon was getting his ass kicked by Iron Emmet in all their training sessions and only managed to beat him when he went in berzerk mode while Emmet was just in sparring mode, heck Emmet even tried to tell Jon that he yielded many times and still was able to counter him (so without the intent of winning).

[Lemonking]

When was the last time a 16 year old was considered one of the best athletes in a given sport? The peak age for UFC fighters starts in the mid to late twenties for the lower weight classes. Jaime didn't beat Arthur Dayne or Barristan when he was 16.

Quote

. I still wonder what the point of his excessive combat training is then, if he is never to use it against an elite level warrior.

Realism. If an average swordsman can beat the best ever 1 out of 20 times your chance of losing gets pretty high after a couple of fights. Every bit of skill counts.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Kal-L said:

You just contradict yourself. Jon was getting his ass kicked by Iron Emmet in all their training sessions, he bested him when he went in berzerk mode while Emmet was just in sparring mode, heck Emmet tried to tell Jon that he yielded many times and still was able to counter him (so without the intent of winning).

This berserk state idea is one I have read about, but am undecided on. I do recall the incident where the eyeless rangers are sent back to the Wall by the Weeper. I think their heads were mounted on stakes driven into the ground. Someone mentions that it must have taken the wildlings half the night to get the stakes into the frozen ground.

And yet, in anger, Jon rips one clean out of the ground with one hand. Immediately thereafter we are told how he commands his men to remove the rest of the heads, but how they struggle together to get the stakes out of the ground. At first I thought Martin just didn't realize the contradiction between Jon ripping the stake out so casually while the rest of the men struggled, and the wildlings struggled half the night to insert them in the first place.

But if you read it in conjunction with the berserk rage idea it suddenly takes on a whole new meaning.

[Grey Firewyrm]

I think he has been up against folk who have either been below his own standard such as the new NW recruits or those who have far more experience. I would like to see him in a bout between someone of his own age and similar background.

[Cragen]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This berserk state idea is one I have read about, but am undecided on. I do recall the incident where the eyeless rangers are sent back to the Wall by the Weeper. I think their heads were mounted on stakes driven into the ground. Someone mentions that it must have taken the wildlings half the night to get the stakes into the frozen ground.

And yet, in anger, Jon rips one clean out of the ground with one hand. Immediately thereafter we are told how he commands his men to remove the rest of the heads, but how they struggle together to get the stakes out of the ground. At first I thought Martin just didn't realize the contradiction between Jon ripping the stake out so casually while the rest of the men struggled, and the wildlings struggled half the night to insert them in the first place.

But if you read it in conjunction with the berserk rage idea it suddenly takes on a whole new meaning.

There is another similar case. When Janos Slynt and Aliser Torn come to CB and interrogate Jon and they start talking shit, Jon catch Aliser for throat with one hand and lift him into air. He would chock him, if not other pull him of. It's not coincides.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

5 hours ago, Lemonking said:

When was the last time a 16 year old was considered one of the best athletes in a given sport? The peak age for UFC fighters starts in the mid to late twenties for the lower weight classes. Jaime didn't beat Arthur Dayne or Barristan when he was 16.

Realism. If an average swordsman can beat the best ever 1 out of 20 times your chance of losing gets pretty high after a couple of fights. Every bit of skill counts.

Totally agree with this. He is too young before he reaches his peak. And to be frankly we have never seen him with other top swordmen in the south to know of his true potential. 

I'd say Jon is quite good but not top swordman. To call him average is a bit unfair. However he has very good survival instinct. It doesn't matter if you have best skills ever, as long as you survive it matters most.

but of course Jon is currently dead lol so...

[WSmith84]

On the Loras thing, Loras doesn't even seem to favour a sword as a melee weapon. He seems to prefer other melee weapons, so his brother being better with a sword doesn't make Loras a poorer warrior. Not that being a worse swordsman than Garlan makes one a poor warrior. And George ranks him as one of the elite.

[Eugs]

People overestimate how good the elite tier fighters in Westeros really are.  Sure there are a handful of recent legendary fighters like Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Gwayne Corbray, and Daemon Blackfyre who proved themselves over and over on the battlefield and not just sporting tournaments, as being simply far superior to anyone around them.  But the current crop of  these so called elite are more like Loras Tyrell, and Jaimie Lannister, hyped up talents who rarely do anything spectacular to distinguish themselves in the moments where it really counts.  At 16-17 years old who's to say if Jon Snow can't come back and become one of those elites as a fully mature adult if he recovers from the critical/fatal stab wounds.  He may not be as talented as the Loras' and Jaimies of this world, but his relentless drive to get better makes him much more likely to become the battlefield fighter that the future generations in his world talk about.  Also to those who claim that 16-17 vs adult doesn't matter in fighting, in the real world it makes a world of difference, and certainly in martial arts like sword fighting that require a great deal of experience, physical strength, and hand eye coordination to excel.  Just like a national champion high school wrestler is nothing against an NCAA champion who likewise is nothing compared to an olympic champion, and a gold glove amateur boxing champ won't magically beat an olympian or a pro title holder, in swordfighting a high school age champion won't hold a candle to a world class adult.  It's simply not realistic in our world nor realistic in GRRM's Westeros where teenagers like Jon Snow must spar, train, and fight with fully grown adults.