Macgregor of the North

Help needed.Some confused Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder.

218 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Speaking of the use of color to communicate, I would invite you to reread The Reaver - AFFC chapter 29. GRRM repeats various colors over and over. Below is an excerpt of an essay I'm still working on of this chapter...

I'll be sure to read up on it and let you know if I can glean anything from it. The difficulty lies in context and sometimes he may use a coded concept in one chapter but not give the obvious meaning until later in the POV or in another POV entirely. For instance flies are used quite a bit throughout the first two books but we aren't given the meaning until halfway through ASOS in a Dany chapter. Daario explains, 

Quote

"Flies are the dead man's revenge." Daario smiled, and stroked the center prong of his beard. "Corpses breed maggots, and maggots breed flies." -Daenerys VI, ASOS

Flies are a dead man's revenge but then he also connects them to maggots and corpses. Maggots on a cursory glance are related to worms and I recall the white tendrils of weirwoods being called "graveworms" on more than one occasion. You can see how puzzling out even one concept's full reach can quickly become insurmountable without first understanding the related coded concepts hidden just below the surface. The same can apply to color, especially when it is 2+ colors. I'll take a look and report back what I find but can't promise anything substantial until I've re-read more of the Ironborn POVs.

@Duncan_The_Short

That's awesome, even more parallels to the Targaryen return and their "diving right to rule," as Targaryens are often stated to be above the laws of average men. Sometimes even to the point of being half-god. I definitely agree with your idea that the two sides are really similar and it's all about which side of the conflict you support. Jon said something similar about First Men and Wildlings. That it really depended on your perspective and where you stood when the Wall went up.

Edited by Cowboy Dan

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18 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

That's awesome, even more parallels to the Targaryen return and their "diving right to rule," as Targaryens are often stated to be above the laws of average men. Sometimes even to the point of being half-god. I definitely agree with your idea that the two sides are really similar and it's all about which side of the conflict you support. Jon said something similar about First Men and Wildlings. That it really depended on your perspective and where you stood when the Wall went up.

I know right?  One of the things I like about viewing the story through an historical lens is when you realize that a marriage/alliance between Dany, Jon, and Tyrion would be the perfect parallel to the historical narrative of healing the breach between the two main protagonists of the war and a return to the ascendency of the line of the Conqueror. 

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23 minutes ago, Duncan_The_Short said:

I know right?  One of the things I like about viewing the story through an historical lens is when you realize that a marriage/alliance between Dany, Jon, and Tyrion would be the perfect parallel to the historical narrative of healing the breach between the two main protagonists of the war and a return to the ascendency of the line of the Conqueror. 

Can't say I agree that Tyrion is the third head but I don't want to argue over personal theories here. I did have an idea awhile back that Dany would legitimize the different bastards/heirs that are cropping up in a reversal of Aegon the IV legitimizing bastards which lead to the Blackfyre Rebellions. So instead of fracturing the realm it would give more major families ties to Targs and unify the kingdoms. After all she does have literal dragons to help enforce her rule and fight anyone who gets too greedy. I don't still hold that idea as likely but it was an interesting one to ponder.

Edited by Cowboy Dan

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On July 15, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

 

As to Durran, perhaps it's not always him who introduces magic to the human gene pool. Or maybe he did in one time loop but it happened another way in another, and that is what the problem is in the first place. Men merging with magic is not doing the world any favours. 

I know this is not specific to the OP but involves your idea on man merging with magic.  But I have been formulating a theory that I want to expand on in the future:

Perhaps a different form of the Long Night occurred previously in Essos due to the incursion of magic.  I have begun to hypothesize that maybe the first Long Night (or first couple) involved blood magic in asshai that created Others based on Shadows (similar to the current others and Ice).  Like the shadow that killed Renly from Mel of Asshai. Edric Shadowchaser as an original Hero of the Long Night is part of my theory, and the fact that the Long Night and Azor Ahai are Essos based. 

They dabbled too deep in magic as those did in Westeros.  

Even maybe the First Men fled the original Long Night across the arm and to Westeros and thus had some ability vs magic and the CotF and Others to start.  

 

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4 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

I know this is not specific to the OP but involves your idea on man merging with magic.  But I have been formulating a theory that I want to expand on in the future:

Perhaps a different form of the Long Night occurred previously in Essos due to the incursion of magic.  I have begun to hypothesize that maybe the first Long Night (or first couple) involved blood magic in asshai that created Others based on Shadows (similar to the current others and Ice).  Like the shadow that killed Renly from Mel of Asshai. Edric Shadowchaser as an original Hero of the Long Night is part of my theory, and the fact that the Long Night and Azor Ahai are Essos based. 

They dabbled too deep in magic as those did in Westeros.  

Even maybe the First Men fled the original Long Night across the arm and to Westeros and thus had some ability vs magic and the CotF and Others to start.  

 

Do you reckon that the story of the night king was actually about a ice priestess birthing the ice form of shadow babies ; the Others? In an echo of the shape babies of Asshai... 

 

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5 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

I know this is not specific to the OP but involves your idea on man merging with magic.  But I have been formulating a theory that I want to expand on in the future:

Perhaps a different form of the Long Night occurred previously in Essos due to the incursion of magic.  I have begun to hypothesize that maybe the first Long Night (or first couple) involved blood magic in asshai that created Others based on Shadows (similar to the current others and Ice).  Like the shadow that killed Renly from Mel of Asshai. Edric Shadowchaser as an original Hero of the Long Night is part of my theory, and the fact that the Long Night and Azor Ahai are Essos based. 

They dabbled too deep in magic as those did in Westeros.  

Even maybe the First Men fled the original Long Night across the arm and to Westeros and thus had some ability vs magic and the CotF and Others to start.  

 

Hey Rob Storm,

I look forward to the theory. Of course we can be sure the first men(Essosi) messed about with magic and in the ensuing loops  caused chaos due to this.

its a crazy (and) plausible thought that they fled and took their crazy magic west with them during one timeloop! There are giant bones and historic references to little singer type people's in the east I believe. The history isn't just a Westeros thing, it does seem to be a world thing.

They could have taken all sorts of weird capers west or east until they hit Westeros  lands. 

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Hey to all,

Was thinking this weekend about time loops and what resets them. Be it reaching a certain day or a certain year, or someone's death, in some stories this seems to be what always resets it back to a certain start point. 

If it's a death, who's death? If it's a certain calendar day or year then when? is it after the war for the dawn? 

Still thinking here on Bran Stark growing to be Bran the builder. What if it's his death that resets the loop. And simultaneously his death that can break the cycle?. 

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3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Still thinking here on Bran Stark growing to be Bran the builder. What if it's his death that resets the loop. And simultaneously his death that can break the cycle?. 

That's along the lines I've been thinking. Bittersweet, for sure.

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It's the cataclysmic event that resets the wheel or loop. Death and destruction is the end so that resurrection and rebirth are the beginning of the new turning. Although it seems that there have been a few loops that got reset before a cataclysmic event happened.

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Was gonna post a new thread on this but since this thread is on topic I'll just throw it here. @Feather Crystal @Seams @Manderly's Rat Cook @Cowboy Dan.

Guys, ive been thinking about a saying I've seen scattered through the books and I wonder if it carries more meaning than it appears to. I know that especially when it's said by a member of house Stark it is meant to imply the sayer has been through so much in the story that their memories literally seem to have happened a thousand years ago.

But, I also wonder if it is a cheeky wee clue or nod to the idea we have been discussing, that there are time loops and that these things have 'happened before' a long time ago, if you get my meaning. 

In spare time I gathered together the quotes. See below.

AGOT JON IV:

"Jon told the story of how he and Robb had found the pups newborn in the late summer snows. It seemed a thousand years ago now."

AGOT CAT XI:

"It seemed a thousand years ago that Catelyn Stark had carried her infant son out of Riverrun, crossing the Tumblestone in a small boat to begin their journey north to Winterfell."

ACOK ARYA IV:

"It seemed a thousandyears ago now, something that had happened to a different person in a different life . ."

ACOK JON III:

"On the way back to Winterfell, Jon and Robb had raced, and found six direwolf pups in the snow. A thousand years ago."

ASOS PROLOGUE (Mormont):

"Die," screamed Mormont's raven, flapping its black wings. "Die, die, die."

"Many of us," the Old Bear said. "Mayhaps even all of us. But as another Lord Commander said a thousand years ago, that is why they dress us in black."

(Perhaps you were that LC, Mormont! Who said the same thing a thousand years ago.)

ASOS CAT III:

"The north is hard and cold, and has no mercy, Ned had told her when she first came to Winterfell a thousand years ago."

ASOS SANSA V:

"The king was dead, the cruel king who had been her gallant prince a thousand years ago."

ADWD BRAN III:

"I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago"

ADWD THE UGLY LITTLE GIRL:

"A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya."

ADWD DAENERYS X

"North they flew, beyond the river, Drogon gliding on torn and tattered wings through clouds that whipped by like the banners of some ghostly army. Dany glimpsed the shores of Slaver's Bay and the old Valyrian road that ran beside it through sand and desolation until it vanished in the west. The road home. Then there was nothing beneath them but grass rippling in the wind.
Was that first flight a thousand years ago? Sometimes it seemed as if it must be."

 

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25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Was gonna post a new thread on this but since this thread is on topic I'll just throw it here.

Guys, ive been thinking about a saying I've seen scattered through the books and I wonder if it carries more meaning than it appears to. I know that especially when it's said by a member of house Stark it is meant to imply the sayer has been through so much in the story that their memories literally seem to have happened a thousand years ago.

But, I also wonder if it is a cheeky wee clue or nod to the idea we have been discussing, that there are time loops and that these things have 'happened before' a long time ago, if you get my meaning. 

In spare time I gathered together the quotes. See below.

AGOT JON IV:

"Jon told the story of how he and Robb had found the pups newborn in the late summer snows. It seemed a thousand years ago now."

...

Nice catch! And great timing! In the car, I am listening to the audiobook of Feast again. Yesterday, I listened to a chapter where Lady Genna Lannister Frey is telling Jaime about his father. She described him as someone who comes along once in a thousand years (Emmon Frey said the same thing earlier in the chapter) and I immediately thought of this thread.

"A man such as Tywin Lannister comes but once in a thousand years," declared her husband.

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." (AFfC, Jaime V)

When you run the phrase, "a thousand years" through the SearchoIaF site, it does seem to be a code phrase to call attention to the plot elements and characters that echo ancient legends. I'm looking at examples from Feast now, but many of the uses of the phrase occur in those "inversion" chapters listed by Feather Crystal and identified as characters reliving scenes from ancient history or legend.

I like the "Lann the Clever is a woman" theory, but maybe Genna believes that Tywin was the contemporary embodiment of Lann? Or maybe she is unaware of the meaning of this line that GRRM has planted for readers to notice. Maybe it has nothing to do with Lann.

Immediately before Emmon Frey utters the phrase, Genna is asking Jaime whether he will get a "gold father" to replace the one he lost, like the gold hand he had made. Is there a character in legend who is made of gold? Are we supposed to think of King Midas? In the second example, she is talking about Tyrion being Tywin's son (or being more like him than Jaime is). I get this weird feeling that maybe we are supposed to think of Tywin and Tyrion as two different types of monsters. Maelys the Monstrous? It hasn't been a thousand years since he came along, though. But Genna also calls Tywin a "thundering great fool." Is this a storm god reference?

Lots of possibilities here, but that phrase might help us to know where to begin looking, at least. Nice job.

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3 minutes ago, Seams said:

Nice catch! And great timing! In the car, I am listening to the audiobook of Feast again. Yesterday, I listened to a chapter where Lady Genna Lannister Frey is telling Jaime about his father. She described him as someone who comes along once in a thousand years (Emmon Frey said the same thing earlier in the chapter) and I immediately thought of this thread.

"A man such as Tywin Lannister comes but once in a thousand years," declared her husband.

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." (AFfC, Jaime V)

When you run the phrase, "a thousand years" through the SearchoIaF site, it does seem to be a code phrase to call attention to the plot elements and characters that echo ancient legends. I'm looking at examples from Feast now, but many of the uses of the phrase occur in those "inversion" chapters listed by Feather Crystal and identified as characters reliving scenes from ancient history or legend.

I like the "Lann the Clever is a woman" theory, but maybe Genna believes that Tywin was the contemporary embodiment of Lann? Or maybe she is unaware of the meaning of this line that GRRM has planted for readers to notice. Maybe it has nothing to do with Lann.

Immediately before Emmon Frey utters the phrase, Genna is asking Jaime whether he will get a "gold father" to replace the one he lost, like the gold hand he had made. Is there a character in legend who is made of gold? Are we supposed to think of King Midas? In the second example, she is talking about Tyrion being Tywin's son (or being more like him than Jaime is). I get this weird feeling that maybe we are supposed to think of Tywin and Tyrion as two different types of monsters. Maelys the Monstrous? It hasn't been a thousand years since he came along, though. But Genna also calls Tywin a "thundering great fool." Is this a storm god reference?

Lots of possibilities here, but that phrase might help us to know where to begin looking, at least. Nice job.

Cheers Seams. It was a good while back the thousand years thing stood out to me. I remember thinking, this is said a lot, is there some significance? 

But like you, it wasn't til I read one of the passages recently that I instantly thought of this thread and wondered if this phrase is a clue for us. When you skim through all the times it's mentioned, it can certainly seem so. 

I had typed into the search 'thousand years ago' and got like 50 something results, but I will now have a look at 'thousand years' and have a skim through the results to see any standout passages. 

It does seem to me it's possible this is a clue reference to time repeating itself in the story.

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Just a quick post for now just to tell you how much I like the post above about the thousand years! 

More later.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Nice catch! And great timing! In the car, I am listening to the audiobook of Feast again. Yesterday, I listened to a chapter where Lady Genna Lannister Frey is telling Jaime about his father. She described him as someone who comes along once in a thousand years (Emmon Frey said the same thing earlier in the chapter) and I immediately thought of this thread.

"A man such as Tywin Lannister comes but once in a thousand years," declared her husband.

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." (AFfC, Jaime V)

When you run the phrase, "a thousand years" through the SearchoIaF site, it does seem to be a code phrase to call attention to the plot elements and characters that echo ancient legends. I'm looking at examples from Feast now, but many of the uses of the phrase occur in those "inversion" chapters listed by Feather Crystal and identified as characters reliving scenes from ancient history or legend.

I like the "Lann the Clever is a woman" theory, but maybe Genna believes that Tywin was the contemporary embodiment of Lann? Or maybe she is unaware of the meaning of this line that GRRM has planted for readers to notice. Maybe it has nothing to do with Lann.

Immediately before Emmon Frey utters the phrase, Genna is asking Jaime whether he will get a "gold father" to replace the one he lost, like the gold hand he had made. Is there a character in legend who is made of gold? Are we supposed to think of King Midas? In the second example, she is talking about Tyrion being Tywin's son (or being more like him than Jaime is). I get this weird feeling that maybe we are supposed to think of Tywin and Tyrion as two different types of monsters. Maelys the Monstrous? It hasn't been a thousand years since he came along, though. But Genna also calls Tywin a "thundering great fool." Is this a storm god reference?

Lots of possibilities here, but that phrase might help us to know where to begin looking, at least. Nice job.

Fabulous just fabulous!

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

Nice catch! And great timing! In the car, I am listening to the audiobook of Feast again. Yesterday, I listened to a chapter where Lady Genna Lannister Frey is telling Jaime about his father. She described him as someone who comes along once in a thousand years (Emmon Frey said the same thing earlier in the chapter) and I immediately thought of this thread.

"A man such as Tywin Lannister comes but once in a thousand years," declared her husband.

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." (AFfC, Jaime V)

When you run the phrase, "a thousand years" through the SearchoIaF site, it does seem to be a code phrase to call attention to the plot elements and characters that echo ancient legends. I'm looking at examples from Feast now, but many of the uses of the phrase occur in those "inversion" chapters listed by Feather Crystal and identified as characters reliving scenes from ancient history or legend.

I like the "Lann the Clever is a woman" theory, but maybe Genna believes that Tywin was the contemporary embodiment of Lann? Or maybe she is unaware of the meaning of this line that GRRM has planted for readers to notice. Maybe it has nothing to do with Lann.

Immediately before Emmon Frey utters the phrase, Genna is asking Jaime whether he will get a "gold father" to replace the one he lost, like the gold hand he had made. Is there a character in legend who is made of gold? Are we supposed to think of King Midas? In the second example, she is talking about Tyrion being Tywin's son (or being more like him than Jaime is). I get this weird feeling that maybe we are supposed to think of Tywin and Tyrion as two different types of monsters. Maelys the Monstrous? It hasn't been a thousand years since he came along, though. But Genna also calls Tywin a "thundering great fool." Is this a storm god reference?

Lots of possibilities here, but that phrase might help us to know where to begin looking, at least. Nice job.

@Macgregor of the North that's an amazing find. Although i had noticed the thousand years recurring, I never realised it's used so often! Awesomeness! I'm quite sure it's meant as a history repeating itself hint. 

I haven't figured out the Lann the Clever Sister thing either. I don't think Cersei would be the best reincarnation of Lann the Clever. But neither is Tywin; he never planned to have the Baratheons replaced by Lannisters. That was Cersei.

Right now I think Cersei might be the best candidate. She actually is quite clever,  but she focuses on the wrong thing,  and she's the one who took the crown from the Baratheons without many people noticing. 

The Lannister women we've been introduced to seem to be quite strong and smart. Genna completely overpowers her husband and seems intelligent, Joanna was said to rule at home,  and we all know it's not at all easy to rule over Tywin, and Cersei's ambition is endless, and she didn't seem stupid at all before the paranoia took over. 

There's also the peculiar fact that besides Lann the Clever, there's no other Lann to be found in all of Lannister's known history. There is one official Lanna, and a few bastards named Lanna (one at the brothel in Stoney Sept,  and one in a brothel in Braavos) though. I really want to find out,  but together with the video this is all the evidence I have right now. :(

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24 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

@Macgregor of the North that's an amazing find. Although i had noticed the thousand years recurring, I never realised it's used so often! Awesomeness! I'm quite sure it's meant as a history repeating itself hint. 

I haven't figured out the Lann the Clever Sister thing either. I don't think Cersei would be the best reincarnation of Lann the Clever. But neither is Tywin; he never planned to have the Baratheons replaced by Lannisters. That was Cersei.

Right now I think Cersei might be the best candidate. She actually is quite clever,  but she focuses on the wrong thing,  and she's the one who took the crown from the Baratheons without many people noticing. 

The Lannister women we've been introduced to seem to be quite strong and smart. Genna completely overpowers her husband and seems intelligent, Joanna was said to rule at home,  and we all know it's not at all easy to rule over Tywin, and Cersei's ambition is endless, and she didn't seem stupid at all before the paranoia took over. 

There's also the peculiar fact that besides Lann the Clever, there's no other Lann to be found in all of Lannister's known history. There is one official Lanna, and a few bastards named Lanna (one at the brothel in Stoney Sept,  and one in a brothel in Braavos) though. I really want to find out,  but together with the video this is all the evidence I have right now. :(

I had a hunch that maybe the Rohanne Webber connection to the Lannisters might have something to do with the Lann the Clever legend. I was looking for a bloodline that would show an older Lannister connection in the Webber line, but it appears that we don't know anything further back than Rohanne's father, Wyman, and maybe one generation before that, Reynard. But the name Reynard may be a clue: it is associated with the trickster, Reynard the Fox, in European folk tales. It's not a lot to go on, but it might be a little hint that red-haired Lady Rohanne is the Lann the Clever representative for her generation. She does follow the pattern of working her way up to the Lannister marriage and then taking over as Lady of Casterly Rock. The next person who tried this was Ellen Reyne (another Reynard allusion?) but she was defeated by Tywin, who "outfoxed" her. Like Lady Rohanne, Tywin diverts a waterway to defeat an enemy - giving them too much water, though, instead of taking too much.

Genna is another good example. Maybe one of her sons will end up taking over The Twins. When GRRM described her in AFfC, he said she was like two of her husband put together (something like that), referring to her size. So maybe she embodies the Twins, like the good Lannister that she is.

It might not be her work to supplant the Baratheon line that represents Cersei's Lann the Clever behavior (although it does fit) but her claim to rule at Casterly Rock when that is rightfully Tyrion's seat (probably arguable, I realize, since he was sentenced to death). I've been waiting to see how GRRM would make use of Tyrion's expertise with the Casterly sewer system. I would not be at all surprised if Cersei tries to drown him or someone else who is holding the castle, and Tyrion prevents the flooding by opening up key drains to keep the water flowing. Or it could be the other way around - Tyrion knows how to block the sewers and floods Cersei, holed up in the mines under the castle.

The examination of House Webber caused me to think about a possible connection between House Webber - Rohanne's father was Wyman - and Wyman Manderly. The wiki reminds me that it is Rohanne who tells Dunk (and the reader) that House Manderly was driven out of the Reach a thousand years ago. If Macgregor's discovery holds, does this mean that the Manderlys will be returning to the Reach in this generation? Look for a Manderly vs. Peake grudge match. It might also mean that the Webbers and the Manderlys are distantly related and both have Lann the Clever bloodlines.

And just to tie everything neatly in one bow - the merman sigil of House Manderly is probably a sign that the Lannister's favorite murder technique, drowning, will not work on the Manderlys. We already know that Septon Chayle told Bran he grew up on the White Knife and that he is a strong swimmer. Theon threw him in a well, but I am guessing that he swam out through the underground hot springs at Winterfell. If he was born a Manderly, the swimming ability is a sign of the lack of power any new Lann the Clever would exercise over that noble House.

One other thought on Lann the Clever: I haven't explored it much on the Puns and Wordplay thread, but I've wondered whether there is any relationship between the use of a cleaver and Lann the Clever. Dany's butcher King Cleon uses a cleaver, and he might be a symbolic echo of Lann the Clever. Of course, Arya's friend Mycah, who is the first human casualty of the Stark vs. Lannister war, was the butcher's boy. I think there are a few other small references to cleavers that could clarify the meaning or symbolism.

I hope we don't have to wait a thousand years for the next book!

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9 minutes ago, Seams said:

I had a hunch that maybe the Rohanne Webber connection to the Lannisters might have something to do with the Lann the Clever legend. I was looking for a bloodline that would show an older Lannister connection in the Webber line, but it appears that we don't know anything further back than Rohanne's father, Wyman, and maybe one generation before that, Reynard. But the name Reynard may be a clue: it is associated with the trickster, Reynard the Fox, in European folk tales. It's not a lot to go on, but it might be a little hint that red-haired Lady Rohanne is the Lann the Clever representative for her generation. She does follow the pattern of working her way up to the Lannister marriage and then taking over as Lady of Casterly Rock. The next person who tried this was Ellen Reyne (another Reynard allusion?) but she was defeated by Tywin, who "outfoxed" her. Like Lady Rohanne, Tywin diverts a waterway to defeat an enemy - giving them too much water, though, instead of taking too much.

Genna is another good example. Maybe one of her sons will end up taking over The Twins. When GRRM described her in AFfC, he said she was like two of her husband put together (something like that), referring to her size. So maybe she embodies the Twins, like the good Lannister that she is.

It might not be her work to supplant the Baratheon line that represents Cersei's Lann the Clever behavior (although it does fit) but her claim to rule at Casterly Rock when that is rightfully Tyrion's seat (probably arguable, I realize, since he was sentenced to death). I've been waiting to see how GRRM would make use of Tyrion's expertise with the Casterly sewer system. I would not be at all surprised if Cersei tries to drown him or someone else who is holding the castle, and Tyrion prevents the flooding by opening up key drains to keep the water flowing. Or it could be the other way around - Tyrion knows how to block the sewers and floods Cersei, holed up in the mines under the castle.

The examination of House Webber caused me to think about a possible connection between House Webber - Rohanne's father was Wyman - and Wyman Manderly. The wiki reminds me that it is Rohanne who tells Dunk (and the reader) that House Manderly was driven out of the Reach a thousand years ago. If Macgregor's discovery holds, does this mean that the Manderlys will be returning to the Reach in this generation? Look for a Manderly vs. Peake grudge match. It might also mean that the Webbers and the Manderlys are distantly related and both have Lann the Clever bloodlines.

And just to tie everything neatly in one bow - the merman sigil of House Manderly is probably a sign that the Lannister's favorite murder technique, drowning, will not work on the Manderlys. We already know that Septon Chayle told Bran he grew up on the White Knife and that he is a strong swimmer. Theon threw him in a well, but I am guessing that he swam out through the underground hot springs at Winterfell. If he was born a Manderly, the swimming ability is a sign of the lack of power any new Lann the Clever would exercise over that noble House.

One other thought on Lann the Clever: I haven't explored it much on the Puns and Wordplay thread, but I've wondered whether there is any relationship between the use of a cleaver and Lann the Clever. Dany's butcher King Cleon uses a cleaver, and he might be a symbolic echo of Lann the Clever. Of course, Arya's friend Mycah, who is the first human casualty of the Stark vs. Lannister war, was the butcher's boy. I think there are a few other small references to cleavers that could clarify the meaning or symbolism.

I hope we don't have to wait a thousand years for the next book!

I love the Reynard the Fox link! Awesome find! I must look up those stories, and pay special attention to it on my reread, I'm halfway in ASoS atm.

I read these stories in medieval dutch in highschool, but I don't remember much of them, and i probably understood only half of them. 

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2 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

haven't figured out the Lann the Clever Sister thing either. I don't think Cersei would be the best reincarnation of Lann the Clever. But neither is Tywin; he never planned to have the Baratheons replaced by Lannisters. That was Cersei.

Right now I think Cersei might be the best candidate. She actually is quite clever,  but she focuses on the wrong thing,  and she's the one who took the crown from the Baratheons without many people noticing. 

Perhaps Cersei is the inversion Lann, the trickster who never seems to get it quite right?

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5 minutes ago, Duncan_The_Short said:

Perhaps Cersei is the inversion Lann, the trickster who never seems to get it quite right?

Lol I guess so. Casterly Rock and the Iron Throne are two different things as well. I think the rivalry between Cersei and Tyrion was her biggest problem though. They could've been an amazing trickster team it only they had worked together,  and hadn't been obsessed with working against each other.  They're both clever,  but also blind to a lot of things.  And Tyrion poisoning Cersei, and threatening her children triggered her madness. 

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@Macgregor of the North

Really like the thousand years ago post you made. All I can say for now is I have suspected the crazy long timespans we've been told of lasting thousands of years always seemed suspect to me and this just throws fuel on the fire.

 

@Seams, @Manderly's Rat Cook

The fox connection is a good one, it's one of the key reasons I suspect Robert Arryn may not be Jon's son (he loves the story about a fox dressed up as a chicken). Foxes are pretty regularly tied to bastards passed off as trueborn. The following is from TWOIAF.

Quote

Brandon the Builder was descended from Garth by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, these tales would have us believe, whilst Lann the Clever was a bastard born to Florys the Fox in some tales or Rowan Gold-Tree in others. However, Lann the Clever's descent from Garth Greenhand is a tale told in the Reach. In the westerlands, it is more oft said that Lann cozened Garth Greenhand himself by posing as one of his sons (Garth had so many that ofttimes he grew confused), thus making off with part of the inheritance that rightly belonged to Garth's true children.

Florys and Rowan are mentioned a little more in the World book but not much. First let's touch on Florys:

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Florys the Fox, the cleverest of Garth's children, who kept three husbands, each ignorant of the existence of the others. (From their sons sprang House Florent, House Ball, and House Peake).

The fox is directly tied to the ignorance of a child being born to a married woman as a recurring motif. When Roose tells the story of claiming the Right of the First Night he is chasing a fox and it began because he was not informed of a marriage that took place. Roose hangs the unlucky miller and rapes the poor woman. Later the woman's brother recognized the child's eyes were not inherited from the deceased husband but from Roose, leading to losing his tongue and the woman getting a yearly reparation. In the end the fox gets away just as Roose gets away with his crime. Next let's look at Rowan Gold-Tree:

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Rown Gold-Tree, who was so bereft when her lover left her for a rich rival that she wrapped an apple in her golden hair, planted it upon a hill, and grew a tree whose bark and leaves and fruit were gleaming yellow gold, and to whose daughters the Rowans of Goldengrove trace their roots.

It's said that Lann stole from the gods to make his hair gold. Who better to steal from for that purpose than a golden-haired daughter to a god? This is only one of two mentions of Rowan Gold-Tree, and the other directly ties her to the sister Florys the Fox. Perhaps the rich rival was her own sister? It would certainly fit the recurring theme of siblings betraying/usurping the other. Baelor/Maekar, Stannis/Renly, Victarion/Euron, and the Bloodstone Emperor/Amethyst Empress being the examples that spring to mind.

Recently I began to suspect that the real-history, non-mythologized version of Lann was Torrence Teague, "a man of uncertain birth", (perhaps a son to Florys' equivalent) who rose to prominence after he raided the Westerlands and used gold to hire sellswords. They were contested for their rule by other riverlords for a long time, usually connected to immigrants taking over, such as the Andals taking previously First Men-held areas, and Lann was supposedly a traveler from the East.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

One other thought on Lann the Clever: I haven't explored it much on the Puns and Wordplay thread, but I've wondered whether there is any relationship between the use of a cleaver and Lann the Clever. Dany's butcher King Cleon uses a cleaver, and he might be a symbolic echo of Lann the Clever. Of course, Arya's friend Mycah, who is the first human casualty of the Stark vs. Lannister war, was the butcher's boy. I think there are a few other small references to cleavers that could clarify the meaning or symbolism.

Well they are often referred to as a butcher's cleaver in real life so that would certainly make sense. The first thing it made me think of is JonCon ruminating on his defeat at the Battle of the Bells. He remembers others saying that Tywin would have burned down the whole town to ensure Robert's defeat. JonCon thinks the reason he lost was because he did not want the title of butcher. The butcher/cleaver symbolism definitely warrants further follow up, I'll be sure to add it to my list.

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