Ashara & the mysteries of the Royal Children, explained

[maudisdottir]

Edric Dayne wasn't even born at the time of the Tourney, and the others were just going by rumours.  Brandon is definitely not discarded.

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, finger said:

Brandon is all but discarded. The information received by Arya while with the BwB confirms that there was something between Ned and Ashara at HH.

And right on the next page, Harwin discards the whole Ned-Ashara thing as gossip. 

10 hours ago, finger said:

People from WF knew about it and that must be the source of the rumor on Jon's mother.

Another rumour circulating at WF states Jon's mother as commonborn. So, no, no confirmation, but very clearly, rumours.

10 hours ago, finger said:

They must have thought that if Ned came from Starfall with a son, it has to be Ashara's.

Only, they don't know that Ned picked Jon at Starfall. 

10 hours ago, finger said:

Not a word of Brandon. He was acting as a lord-to-be, before his king, in the Riverlands, where his bethroted's father was Lord Paramount. He could have hot blood, but it's never stated that he was completely stupid; he was looking for a convenient match for his brother, and the sister of the Crown Prince's closest friend was such a good match.

The bolded has no textual support.

The tourney, Harwin tells us, is something like a rock concert. Sex is in the air, but it certainly doesn't mean that a guy promised to another wouldn't be discreet in his affairs. After all, it wouldn't be him but the girl who took the fall out when she got pregnant.

 

10 hours ago, finger said:

Nor was Ned, either. If he had dishonored Ashara, he'd had married her on the spot, as his son Robb did years after, at a great cost. After all, she was good match, as I told.

That I can agree with. Had Ned slipped and had sex with Ashara, he would have married her as the next thing. Hence, if he did have a crush on her, it remained platonic.

10 hours ago, finger said:

Finally, BS's reluctancy to talk about it is most telling. He doesn't say the bloody slut laid half a dozen knights and their squires, as a resentful man could. He admits ruefully that she was dishonored and refuses to give details. It's his attitude that hints rape.

Nonsense. If he believed that she was raped, he wouldn't think that she might have grieved for the man who dishonoured her. Barry is simply not resentful, he is not ruled by his ego, doesn't hate on Ashara that she gave another what he couldn't have himself. He is sorry for the beautiful young woman who ended so tragically.

10 hours ago, finger said:

The raping can't be told for sure, but one thing is certain, it there was a raping, the rapist was Aerys, and this also fits BS's reluctancy.

You're reaching here. Barristan comes to the conclusion that he shouldn't have saved Aerys from Duskendale, that's not particularly reluctant, and his account of HH doesn't include Aerys at all.

[finger]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And right on the next page, Harwin discards the whole Ned-Ashara thing as gossip.

Another rumour circulating at WF states Jon's mother as commonborn. So, no, no confirmation, but very clearly, rumours.

Not the whole thing. It seems there are funded rumors about Ned and Ashara, but none about Brandon.

Only, they don't know that Ned picked Jon at Starfall. 

The bolded has no textual support.

The tourney, Harwin tells us, is something like a rock concert. Sex is in the air, but it certainly doesn't mean that a guy promised to another wouldn't be discreet in his affairs. After all, it wouldn't be him but the girl who took the fall out when she got pregnant.

Also to match couples. Brandon should inherit WF and marry Cat. Lyanna was to marry RB. What about Ned? If the "southron ambitions" theory is right, the presence of the four Stark sieblings was meants to place Ned and perhaps Benjen. In any event, this my take of Meera's told tale, but you're free to disagree.

That I can agree with. Had Ned slipped and had sex with Ashara, he would have married her as the next thing. Hence, if he did have a crush on her, it remained platonic.

Nonsense. If he believed that she was raped, he wouldn't think that she might have grieved for the man who dishonoured her. Barry is simply not resentful, he is not ruled by his ego, doesn't hate on Ashara that she gave another what he couldn't have himself. He is sorry for the beautiful young woman who ended so tragically.

Exactly, he's sorry for her, as if he could have avoided her end. This always rang something to me.

You're reaching here. Barristan comes to the conclusion that he shouldn't have saved Aerys from Duskendale, that's not particularly reluctant, and his account of HH doesn't include Aerys at all.

Of course, the clues are very subtle. I can't tell for sure that Ashara was raped, but if she was, it had to be Aerys, as explained. But she might have had sex, get pregnant and don't know who the father was. I guess being gangbanged brings some dishonor, or the Darry lordship, if it's your lucky day, who knows.

 

[maudisdottir]

I don't understand why anyone needs to look for "subtle" clues that require a lot of digging and twisting of logic to approach plausibility.  The clues are there - she was dishonoured at the HH tourney.  Why does there need to be more to the story?  There's already mystery enough.  Many people think she and Ned were in love.  Was it him?  If not, and they were truly in love, why didn't Ned seek vengeance for her dishonour? Why did she throw herself from the window?  Ashara being raped by Aerys and then killing herself with grief over his loss and their child's makes no sense.

I believe Brandon set the whole thing up with Ned and Ashara so he could use them as a distraction while he and Ashara fooled around.  He was already promised and couldn't appear too obviously interested, so pushing Ned into the spotlight as Ashara's suitor took the focus off him.  And it worked, because all these years later the gossip is still that Ned and Ashara fell in love.  Brandon approached her, obviously caught her interest because she said yes, and came off looking like a good guy for helping out his shy brother.  If he was as handsome and charming as he seems, that would be irresistible to a girl like Ashara.

[PrettyPig]

I personally think that folks should take a closer look at GRRM's ambiguous wordplay in that recollection of Barristan's, and put aside the preconceived notion that the "Stark" that Ashara "looked to" was male.      Pay attention to what Selmy is actually saying in that passage and things get interesting.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I don't understand why anyone needs to look for "subtle" clues that require a lot of digging and twisting of logic to approach plausibility.  The clues are there - she was dishonoured at the HH tourney.  Why does there need to be more to the story?  There's already mystery enough.  Many people think she and Ned were in love.  Was it him?  If not, and they were truly in love, why didn't Ned seek vengeance for her dishonour? Why did she throw herself from the window?  Ashara being raped by Aerys and then killing herself with grief over his loss and their child's makes no sense.

I believe Brandon set the whole thing up with Ned and Ashara so he could use them as a distraction while he and Ashara fooled around.  He was already promised and couldn't appear too obviously interested, so pushing Ned into the spotlight as Ashara's suitor took the focus off him.  And it worked, because all these years later the gossip is still that Ned and Ashara fell in love.  Brandon approached her, obviously caught her interest because she said yes, and came off looking like a good guy for helping out his shy brother.  If he was as handsome and charming as he seems, that would be irresistible to a girl like Ashara.

That's an interesting take! And it fits - Ned tells us that Brandon always knew what to do, so a little manoevering like that would be in character.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 25/07/2016 at 8:56 PM, Maester Crypt said:

Sorry for this tag, the usual formatting problems. 

 

Please ignore the above, ^^^ stupid laptop does this all the bloody time.

14 hours ago, finger said:

Of course, the clues are very subtle. I can't tell for sure that Ashara was raped, but if she was, it had to be Aerys, as explained. But she might have had sex, get pregnant and don't know who the father was. I guess being gangbanged brings some dishonor, or the Darry lordship, if it's your lucky day, who knows.

 And know I know you are just trolling.  

 

 

[finger]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

Please ignore the above, ^^^ stupid laptop does this all the bloody time.

 And know I know you are just trolling.  

It seems to me you look like the kind of person who disdain other people and their opinions without offering any better alternative. If you have any  idea of who was the father, and where, when, and how she got prenant, don't hesitate to share it. If else, I don't have any use for unasked contemptuous remarks.

[finger]

17 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I don't understand why anyone needs to look for "subtle" clues that require a lot of digging and twisting of logic to approach plausibility.  The clues are there - she was dishonoured at the HH tourney.  Why does there need to be more to the story?  There's already mystery enough.  Many people think she and Ned were in love.  Was it him?  If not, and they were truly in love, why didn't Ned seek vengeance for her dishonour? Why did she throw herself from the window?  Ashara being raped by Aerys and then killing herself with grief over his loss and their child's makes no sense.

I believe Brandon set the whole thing up with Ned and Ashara so he could use them as a distraction while he and Ashara fooled around.  He was already promised and couldn't appear too obviously interested, so pushing Ned into the spotlight as Ashara's suitor took the focus off him.  And it worked, because all these years later the gossip is still that Ned and Ashara fell in love.  Brandon approached her, obviously caught her interest because she said yes, and came off looking like a good guy for helping out his shy brother.  If he was as handsome and charming as he seems, that would be irresistible to a girl like Ashara.

 

12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's an interesting take! And it fits - Ned tells us that Brandon always knew what to do, so a little manoevering like that would be in character.

Now it's you who are overstretching a little quote. Why should have been Brandon who fathered Ashara's baby? By the same token it could have been JC, trying to be mannish before Rhaegar, or Oberyn, because he was fond  of the game. Brandon is not depicted as thoughtful as to take his brother as a curtain. Besides, if a tourney was such a sex feast as you seem to imply, was it needed?

I rather look for another explanation.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 6:02 AM, MizasterJ said:

 

 

In conclusion: I believe young griff is Ashara's child. There's a strong chance that he is also Rheagar's son. I believe Ashara knew about Rheagar's other child w/ Lyanna (probably Jon) as many people were in on this grand scheme by Rheagar to fulfill the Prince who was promised prophecy. Ned & Ashara worked out a deal to each raise 1 child secretly, as if they were the result of their love for each other. Also keeping their heritage secret because if they knew each other had a claim to the throne war would break out. Finally, having said all this, I believe it lends a great amount of credence to the idea that the sword Dawn = Lightbringer, and that the son of Rheagar and /or Ashara will inherit it.

 

Ashara had a daughter, not a son.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 9:36 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

"Dishonored" does not imply rape. It implies that she got caught doing something she shouldn't and the guy didn't even offer for her hand to make it right. Could be something as simple as a makeout session that got interrupted by somebody with a big mouth. People tend to jump straight to sex on this, but in medieval culture a lady's honor could easily be damaged without going very far at all. 

The stillborn child doesn't necessarily relate to what happened at Harrenhal either. If she'd gotten pregnant there and lost her baby 8-9 months later, she wouldn't have waited until the war was over to kill her self. However...after she'd been dishonored it's possible that the dishonorable men around her decided she was fair game for being seduced and she did get pregnant some months after Harrenhal.

The paternity of the child (if there was one) is impossible to know. GRRM has stated that she "was not nailed down at Starfall" during the war, so she could have met up with the guy from Harrenhal, or she could have gone visiting in Dorne since there wasn't any fighting going on there, or she could have been back and forth to King's Landing half a dozen times. 

The most obvious place for her to have gone would be the tower of joy, since it was in Dorne, not far away, and her brother was there. She was probably impregnated by Rhaegar there as well.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 4:03 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The problem with Aerys is primarily that he gave up perusing other ladies and swore to only share his bed with the Queen. After becoming convinced her many M/C's were a punishment by the gods for his infidelity. 

The second problem is that it is highly unlikely that she would want to sleep with the rather disgusting looking King. And the reliance upon Rape as a plot device is something theorists who don't bother using the text to build there theories rely on a lot. There simply is no evidence in text that Aerys raped Ashara. 

The Third problem is Barristan. Gosh this guys thoughts inconveniently disassemble so many Ashara's lover was XXXXXX theories. The man knows who it was. He doesn't directly tell us the man's identity but we can gather from his thoughts who it wasn't and it wasn't the King he was sworn to serve, it wasn't Rhaegar whom he spent his life protecting and it wasn't his sworn brother in arms. Any of these people would cause Barristan to hold extremely divergent feelings towards them than he does.

Barristan does not know first hand what happened to Ashara, he just knows what he has been told. That means that details, such as who dishonored her, and her suicide, may not be entirely accurate, but just the spin that was put out to hide what really happened.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 0:49 PM, sweetsunray said:

Aegon doesn't have to be a Blackfyre even. Lyseni have silver hair and purple eyes. As for a resemblance to Rhaegar => Cersei thinks Auranne Waters resembles Rhaegar, and notes it's the hair and eyes thing. So, Blackfyre, Valerion, Lyseni, Targ and even some Daynes seem to have that similar look.

Silver hair and purple eyes are albino traits that result from a lack of melanin, and the Valyrians and other people who have these characteristics are albinos. The Daynes are not albino though, which means that their purple eyes have to come from a unique genetic makeup that is not human. They are not like other people, they are alien. Which is kind of weird when you consider their whole starfall origin story.

[Ser Leftwich]

36 minutes ago, tugela said:

Ashara had a daughter, not a son.

 

23 minutes ago, tugela said:

Barristan does not know first hand what happened to Ashara, he just knows what he has been told. That means that details, such as who dishonored her, and her suicide, may not be entirely accurate, but just the spin that was put out to hide what really happened.

Both of these sets of information are from Barristan. Barristan's second or third hand information is not reliable.

Why is one definite but the other is just what he has been told?

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 9:56 PM, Ygrain said:

Because Gendry remembers his mother.

You're forgetting one thing - that she danced with Ned only because Brandon talked her into it. One wonders if it was a common thing for a lady to dance with anyone who asked, or on whose behalf she was asked, or if this implies that Brandon had some sway with her. Either way, it adds Brandon to the list of people she had some interactions with.

Yet we know that this particular Stark has already gone against the norms at least once. Honourable men are not supposed to deflower noble maidens, yet he did, and didn't seem awfully inclined on making up for it by marrying her.

What age difference? Brandon was only a couple of years older. Also, I don't see how the guy whose actions consituted one of the sparks for the Rebellion has had little importance.

Dany was born 8-9 months after Jon. I.e., long after Ashara's death.

Daenerys could not have been born 8-9 months after Jon, because then it would be impossible for Aerys to be her father, which everyone would have noted.

She was born at around the same time as Jon.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 7:55 AM, Ygrain said:

The only supposed contradiction is that frikkin' lemon tree in Braavos, and even that can be explained without twisting Dany's origin into a pretzel. Plus, the statement about approximately 8-9 months' age difference comes directly from GRRM.

But it cannot be true, since it would imply a contradiction with the unfolding of events as known.

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, finger said:

 

Now it's you who are overstretching a little quote. Why should have been Brandon who fathered Ashara's baby? By the same token it could have been JC, trying to be mannish before Rhaegar, or Oberyn, because he was fond  of the game. Brandon is not depicted as thoughtful as to take his brother as a curtain. Besides, if a tourney was such a sex feast as you seem to imply, was it needed?

I rather look for another explanation.

Because Barristan said she "looked...to Stark", not Connington or Martell or Targaryen.  I don't believe that she looked for advice or comfort - she looked to him for love (perhaps lust on Brandon's side) and sex.  Barry wishes he could have won the tourney so she would have looked to him instead.  I'm pretty certain he wasn't talking about being confidants.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 4:47 PM, Voice said:

Well, unless the family consisted of only Allyria at that point, it seems likely other family members were present. Edric's father would certainly have been alive during that time, as Edric was not yet conceived.

So I'd still put more weight in Allyria's account than Barristan's. Both are hearsay, but I'd favor in-house hearsay over crush-hearsay.

 

All plausible, but it is all conjecture. We do not know where Barristan heard it, nor if it was reliable.

We have absolutely nothing to suggest Ashara gave birth around the time of Ned's visit. Nor do we have any way of knowing how long after Ned's visit she took the plunge.

 

Edric's father must be dead, as he would not be lord otherwise. But his mother could be alive, whoever she is.

 

Which was my original point. LOL

 

Plausible scenarios, but built upon many assumptions.

While there's nothing to indicate a significant lapse of time between Ned's visit and her alleged death, neither is there anything to indicate a significantly short amount of time between Ned's visit and her alleged death.
 

Just to add one more wrinkle to the discourse, I might also add that we do not know how old Jon was when Ned found him. A baby surely, but how old?

We know nothing, even with the 8-9 month age difference SSM.

 

 

 

We know that she had a still born child shortly before killing herself, which Barristan surmises was in part due to memory of the main who dishonored her (implying that he was recently deceased). We also know that Ned returned Dawn specifically to her (so she must have been the ranking Dayne at Starfall at the time).

All of that implies that she had her child at around the same time Lyanna had hers, and that her love died around that time as well. Short list. The only possibilities are that her love was either at ToJ, or Ned brought news of his death when he returned the sword.

There is also the bard song that Arya heard, which refers to a lady who threw herself from a tower in grief after her prince was killed. I believe that song was about Ashara.

Jon presumably was newborn, since Lyanna was referred to being in a bed of blood, and died weak from fever. Unless she had Ebola, she had just given birth. If Jon is older than that, then there must be another baby out there.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 5:28 AM, Sansa Snow said:

Arthur as Jon's father could work if the twist is that Ned thought Rhaegar is the father but it's actually Arthur. Even if Lyanna was Rhaegar's lover, it's not impossible to think that she could have fallen in love with her guardian who was near her everyday. But of course this would involve even more betrayal and backstabbing than R+L=J has (if Rhaegar loved Lyanna too). Though Arthur didn't seem to care much about Lyanna when Ned confronted the kingsguard at the TOJ, so I don't think Arthur and Lyanna had anything going on. And I think Lyanna told Ned who the father is before she died.

There would not be any need to keep Jon's parentage secret unless he was Rhaegar's son. And the Kingsguard would not have been there protecting Lyanna unless her son was Rhaegar's.

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 2:16 PM, Makk said:

I think the fact he didn't stay long in Starfall was more likely he had to get back to the North and it would have been incredible awkward.

I see something like this hypothetical situation. Ned has already told her months ago, by raven, that they can no longer be together, honour and duty has compelled him to wed Catelyn Tully. He turns up at Starfall to return Dawn, and although angry with him, she is excited to see him again. But he tells her of her brothers death which horrifies her. She then asks who this young child is and he lies saying it is his bastard and the mother is dead. She is extremely hurt because she tried to seduce Ned earlier and he told her to wait until they were wed. She now feels spurned not only by him wedding Catelyn (which she could at least understand), but for sleeping with some unknown camp follower (which she cannot understand). She tells him to begone and that they will never see each other again.After he leaves, with many of her closest friends and family dead, and her view of the man she loved in tatters, she throws herself from the tower in grief.

A more likely outcome of that scenario is that she would have her men at arms throw Ned from the Tower, not herself. That is what a hot blooded Dornish woman would do.