M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I know they must exist, and I'm hoping you folks can help me: I'm looking for any and all examples in ASOIAF, TWOIAF, Kot7K (including spoiler chapters), the Rogue Prince or tP&tD of a man screwing (or nearly screwing, or actually marrying) a woman he's not "supposed" to screw (or marry or whatever) in which the woman is blamed in-world (by anyone or everyone). This can and should include any offhand references to historical events, etc. Happy to be reminded of any general slut-shaming stuff, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The first off the top of my head is Arianne Martell seducing Arys Oakheart. Doran isn't too happy with her after her failed coup for Myrcella for the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 Thanks! I thought of that one right away, but to be fair she clearly DOES seduce him, cynically, for a purpose, and understands herself to have tried to "seduce" Renly in the past: Quote One year King Robert's brother came to visit and she did her best to seduce him, but she was half a girl and Lord Renly seemed more bemused than inflamed by her overtures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The big 1 that comes to mind is Duskendale. I don't remember her name but we are told that the lord was still thought of fondly but that the women from Myr was blamed for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Prince Duncan and Jenny? Maybe her role was not demonized, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Tyrion's first marriage. The rationale that she was just some wily "whore" that was after the the Lannister wealth, or Tywin making her out to be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdirectorfreedom Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 6 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: The big 1 that comes to mind is Duskendale. I don't remember her name but we are told that the lord was still thought of fondly but that the women from Myr was blamed for everything. Lady Serala. The Lace Serpent. Yeah, she's the one they all blame (Aerys seemed to blame her too, considering her punishment). "The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her." Wow. Anyway, perhaps Criston Cole and Rhaenyra Targaryen? Not sure if it's really what you're looking for, but there are differing tales of what happened between them, but some say that Rhaenyra tried to seduce Criston, some say it happened the other way around, and it might not have happened at all. But the most obvious one that I can think of is Lord Tytos' Mistress. She was most certainly seen as some scheming whore, especially by Tywin and Kevan. Though they also blame Lord Tytos for being weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoynestar Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Serala of Myr, blamed for her husband's rebellion (not illicit relationship decisions, but still she likely took the fall because she was a foreigner with no family or reputation in Westeros to back her up). Would agree with many others, including obviously Tysha, and Rhaenyra's relationships. Mushroom paints her as pretty debauched since youth (partly due to Daemon?), but who knows who started what. Also Ellyn Reyne might be an example. No knowing what she was really like, but accounts blame her for trying to seduce Tytos. But we know the Lannisters hated her family's influence. And Jeyne Westerling has some potential to end up in history (esp in the North) as the woman who seduced and brought down the Young Wolf, either at her mother's behest or on her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said: But the most obvious one that I can think of is Lord Tytos' Mistress. She was most certainly seen as some scheming whore, especially by Tywin and Kevan. Though they also blame Lord Tytos for being weak. IIRC, she was blamed for starting to behave like she was a Lady of the Rock and for wearing their mother's jewellery and not for the relationship itself which wasn't anything bad as Tytos' wife had already been dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyberdirectorfreedom Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 40 minutes ago, Dofs said: IIRC, she was blamed for starting to behave like she was a Lady of the Rock and for wearing their mother's jewellery and not for the relationship itself which wasn't anything bad as Tytos' wife had already been dead. You're correct, indeed. I looked into it a little, and it seems that Kevan at least had no issue with the relationship, in and of itself. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall... It was the fact that she overreached herself that they took issue with. Now, that said, I believe (and this is mostly speculation) that Tywin took issue with Tyrion's first marriage is because it reminded him of what happened with Tytos. I suppose that's why I took that to mean Tywin felt that Tytos was seduced by the unnamed mistress, as Tywin also felt that Tyrion was seduced by Tysha. So yep, I was confusing my ideas with the facts. Oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philokles Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Gatehouse Ami? Pia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I was gonna say, Amerei Frey; poor lass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Spoon Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I guess Victarion's treatment of his Saltwife after being seduced/raped by Euron would count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 16 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said: The big 1 that comes to mind is Duskendale. I don't remember her name but we are told that the lord was still thought of fondly but that the women from Myr was blamed for everything. yus. my own tinfoil has her as a cat's paw. not that the cat's paw part is tinfoil -- I think it's strongly hinted, right? but perfect example, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 14 hours ago, Seams said: Prince Duncan and Jenny? Maybe her role was not demonized, though. The reason I asked this is because my brain is SO wrapped up in specific other things that I knew I couldn't focus on the question internally. And this example points that point and confirms I was right to ask: I literally wrote about them within an hour of asking this, and it didn't even occur to me as an answer to my own question. But yeah: He's "enamored of" and "smitten with" her. The accompanying "witch" GoHH is a tiny step from him being "bewitched". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 13 hours ago, Minstral said: Tyrion's first marriage. The rationale that she was just some wily "whore" that was after the the Lannister wealth, or Tywin making her out to be one. Excellent, definitely, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said: Anyway, perhaps Criston Cole and Rhaenyra Targaryen? Not sure if it's really what you're looking for, but there are differing tales of what happened between them, but some say that Rhaenyra tried to seduce Criston, some say it happened the other way around, and it might not have happened at all. I'll have to look into the details, but if nothing else it's slut shaming stuff. 9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said: But the most obvious one that I can think of is Lord Tytos' Mistress. She was most certainly seen as some scheming whore, especially by Tywin and Kevan. Though they also blame Lord Tytos for being weak. YES! YES! Thank you! PERFECT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 9 hours ago, rhoynestar said: And Jeyne Westerling has some potential to end up in history (esp in the North) as the woman who seduced and brought down the Young Wolf, either at her mother's behest or on her own. She absolutely does, and I think there's a direct parallel to her and Robb and that's actually the impetus for the question. (Just didn't want to talk about it for fear of driving people off.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 6 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said: You're correct, indeed. I looked into it a little, and it seems that Kevan at least had no issue with the relationship, in and of itself. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall... It was the fact that she overreached herself that they took issue with. Now, that said, I believe (and this is mostly speculation) that Tywin took issue with Tyrion's first marriage is because it reminded him of what happened with Tytos. I suppose that's why I took that to mean Tywin felt that Tytos was seduced by the unnamed mistress, as Tywin also felt that Tyrion was seduced by Tysha. So yep, I was confusing my ideas with the facts. Oops. It's still gendered as hell and blaming the woman for the fall of a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Tootles Posted July 31, 2016 Author Share Posted July 31, 2016 4 hours ago, Horse of Kent said: Gatehouse Ami? Pia? The Gatehouse. Very good. It's in the fucking name, isn't it? Like every dude isn't "the tower", so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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