A Dance of the Dire Wolves

[Springwatch]

20 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

I'm not going to bother with the too violent after her family was killed as it has been gone over so many times, but saying she was violent before?!? Does that make everyone who practices martial arts "too violent for comfort" as well?

Not at all. And I haven't forgotten that a bit of rough and tumble fighting is normal for siblings.

What dismayed me was the scene where King Robert was passing judgement on the murder of Mycah. Sansa tries to fudge her evidence (not good), but if I recall rightly, she only gets a half a sentence out before Arya knocks her down and beats her as she lies there on the floor. In front of the king and court and hostile Lannisters. Surely Ned had  told her this was a very, very, very important event and they absolutely must, must, must get it right. This is the top end of out of control. (I don't mean to derail the thread on this scene - I know there's whole threads dedicated to it, and will take the argument there next time it comes up.)

Cat describes Rickon as 'fierce' - a bit odd. And Shaggy (bonded to Rickon) bites multiple harmless, friendly people.

What I think is, that Brandon, Lyanna, Arya etc use physical violence as the immediate option when fighting for justice - which is always a nice thought, but can have disasterous results.

20 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Hardly. Petyr volunteered for the duel and at Cat's request he did not kill him as he could quite easily have done without repercussion. He showed more mercy than Littlefinger deserved and how much he showed back to the Starks. There is nothing wrong with consensual sex. Barbrey has no regrets all these years on.

Wasn't Cat shocked by how injured Petyr was? Brandon just had to win, not punish.

Barbrey was ok, other girls might not have been (Lysa and Ashara suffered a lot after sex before marriage), I just thought Brandon sounded repellent, and also as if he made a habit of it (likes the sight of virgin's blood).

20 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Given how often Arya thinks fondly of her family including Rickon that seems very unlikely. The Stark wolf-blood is most often seen in rash actions in defence of the pack.

Agree entirely. There would have to be extraordinary circumstances, probably a complete misunderstanding.

[Lady Topspin]

It would create interesting drama.   He is likely to get resurrected by the Others, which would make him a wight. Perhaps a "dance of the direwolves" between him and one of the other Starks will happen.  Jon is a boring character.  This is just the drama that Jon's boring story line needs to make it a little interesting. 

[Julia H.]

4 hours ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

It would create interesting drama.   He is likely to get resurrected by the Others, which would make him a wight. Perhaps a "dance of the direwolves" between him and one of the other Starks will happen.  Jon is a boring character.  This is just the drama that Jon's boring story line needs to make it a little interesting. 

That's your opinion, but there are those of us who find Jon's story line with his introspection and moral dilemmas fascinating enough without the addition of cheap horror elements. 

To the OP:

The story of the Stark children - brought up by Ned to love and help each other - is, among other things, about the preservation of their identities in extreme circumstances (Arya becoming "no one", Sansa hiding behind a false identity, Jon having to give up his previous loyalties as a man of the Night's Watch, etc.). What we can see with regard to their relationship is that the distance only strengthens their "pack" feelings. Sansa experiences what it is like to be a bastard, which only makes her more understanding towards Jon. Arya will give up everything she owns except her brother's gift - Needle - which represents family, Winterfell, "Jon Snow's smile". Bran can reach out to family members through the weirwood. Jon remains fiercely loyal to his family and to Ned's principles despite death and destruction, and I don't think it will change. The siblings dream of each other and think of each other. Granted, we don't know much about Rickon (though we at least know that he gradually became wilder and wilder as a direct result of losing his family members one by one at a very young age), but he is still so young that he cannot be held responsible if anyone should start a war in his name. LF may want Sansa to be his pawn, but I suspect that he is in for a great surprise - sooner or later. Sansa remembers what happened the last time she sided with strangers instead of her family, and she is not the naive little girl she used to be. Arya has zero interest in ruling the North or becoming Lady of Winterfell, but she is still fiercely protective of the family values. I don't see much room for such a dance, especially not in a situation where unity is necessary for mere survival. The lone wolf dies but the pack survives - words of wisdom and not only for the Starks.   

[Philokles]

9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not at all. And I haven't forgotten that a bit of rough and tumble fighting is normal for siblings.

What dismayed me was the scene where King Robert was passing judgement on the murder of Mycah. Sansa tries to fudge her evidence (not good), but if I recall rightly, she only gets a half a sentence out before Arya knocks her down and beats her as she lies there on the floor. In front of the king and court and hostile Lannisters. Surely Ned had  told her this was a very, very, very important event and they absolutely must, must, must get it right. This is the top end of out of control. (I don't mean to derail the thread on this scene - I know there's whole threads dedicated to it, and will take the argument there next time it comes up.)

Cat describes Rickon as 'fierce' - a bit odd. And Shaggy (bonded to Rickon) bites multiple harmless, friendly people.

What I think is, that Brandon, Lyanna, Arya etc use physical violence as the immediate option when fighting for justice - which is always a nice thought, but can have disasterous results.

Wasn't Cat shocked by how injured Petyr was? Brandon just had to win, not punish.

Barbrey was ok, other girls might not have been (Lysa and Ashara suffered a lot after sex before marriage), I just thought Brandon sounded repellent, and also as if he made a habit of it (likes the sight of virgin's blood).

Agree entirely. There would have to be extraordinary circumstances, probably a complete misunderstanding.

No, Arya - a nine year old at this point - had been hiding out in the woods for four days for doing what she believed was right, forced to abandon her wolf, brought in front of a largely hostile audience before she had an opportunity to speak to her father, only to find that the one person who she should have been able to trust (who Ned did have the chance to impress the importance of the events on) betrayed the pack. In light of those circumstances, pushing Sansa to the ground does not seem a sign of excessive violence, but rather wolf-blooded passion. Remember, when her sister needed her only moments later Arya immediately rushed to her and Lady's defence.

Using violence to fight injustice is an unfortunate reality, recognising that is not a bad thing - in fact it is naive to think that your enemies will always accept your requests if you ask politely. Brandon's problem was that he was rash and failed to realise this was not the time to be using threats.

Disliking Brandon is fine, however calling him a predator seems excessive. Here is the quote for the fight vs Petyr, make your own mind up but it is pretty clear to me:

Quote

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. (AGOT, Cat VII)

[a black swan]

5 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

No, Arya - a nine year old at this point - had been hiding out in the woods for four days for doing what she believed was right, forced to abandon her wolf, brought in front of a largely hostile audience before she had an opportunity to speak to her father, only to find that the one person who she should have been able to trust (who Ned did have the chance to impress the importance of the events on) betrayed the pack. In light of those circumstances, pushing Sansa to the ground does not seem a sign of excessive violence, but rather wolf-blooded passion. Remember, when her sister needed her only moments later Arya immediately rushed to her and Lady's defence.

Using violence to fight injustice is an unfortunate reality, recognising that is not a bad thing - in fact it is naive to think that your enemies will always accept your requests if you ask politely. Brandon's problem was that he was rash and failed to realise this was not the time to be using threats.

Disliking Brandon is fine, however calling him a predator seems excessive. Here is the quote for the fight vs Petyr, make your own mind up but it is pretty clear to me:

*applauds you for speaking this truth* 

It's lovely seeing someone paint the whole picture like that. Puts everything into perspective.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

21 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Wasn't Cat shocked by how injured Petyr was? Brandon just had to win, not punish.

No. Cat clearly recognises that Littlefinger's refusal to yield was what led to the injury. Brandon only wounded him after calling for him to yield several times. All the Brandon hatred on this forum perplexes me. 

[Springwatch]

On 20/08/2016 at 5:57 PM, Lurid Jester said:

...

However if reading the books has led anyone to believe that the Starks are little more than feral beasts who would throat each other then no forum conversation will change their mind. 

 

10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No. Cat clearly recognises that Littlefinger's refusal to yield was what led to the injury. Brandon only wounded him after calling for him to yield several times. All the Brandon hatred on this forum perplexes me. 

Are these meant as a nudge to me? Relax, I'm not any of that. However -

22 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

...

Disliking Brandon is fine, however calling him a predator seems excessive....

A wolf is a predator. That's not 'good' or 'bad', it's just the nature of the wolf and how the wolf lives. So when people say Brandon has wolf-blood, they are saying he is something like a wolf, which might reasonably include a predatory nature. And the text tends to support this. From Barbrey:

Quote

"Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is beautiful thing,' he told me once."

Again, Barbrey:

Quote

"Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted."

 

[Springwatch]

On 21/08/2016 at 9:40 PM, Horse of Kent said:

No, Arya - a nine year old at this point - had been hiding out in the woods for four days for doing what she believed was right, forced to abandon her wolf, brought in front of a largely hostile audience before she had an opportunity to speak to her father, only to find that the one person who she should have been able to trust (who Ned did have the chance to impress the importance of the events on) betrayed the pack. In light of those circumstances, pushing Sansa to the ground does not seem a sign of excessive violence, but rather wolf-blooded passion. Remember, when her sister needed her only moments later Arya immediately rushed to her and Lady's defence.

Arya had no support from Ned before the hearing - I'd forgotten that. She did have time with Jory who'd done some very good thinking about the likely Lannister reaction.

But absolutely Arya used excessive violence:

Quote

[Sansa] "I don't know," she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. "I don't remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn't see..."

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar."

Arya is a good person, and acts on the best motives, but her fans shouldn't support everything she does. Different actions might have produced better results.

Suppose Arya acted sorry and sad. Suppose Sansa got properly started on her career of lying, flattering and emotional manipulation. King Bob might have spared Lady.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

A wolf is a predator. That's not 'good' or 'bad', it's just the nature of the wolf and how the wolf lives. So when people say Brandon has wolf-blood, they are saying he is something like a wolf, which might reasonably include a predatory nature. And the text tends to support this. From Barbrey:

Again, Barbrey:

 

I am not sure that those mean what you think. After all Brandon was never said that he wanted Cat and he wouldn't had a reason to be shy about wanting her.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

A wolf is a predator. That's not 'good' or 'bad', it's just the nature of the wolf and how the wolf lives. So when people say Brandon has wolf-blood, they are saying he is something like a wolf, which might reasonably include a predatory nature.

When Ned talks about it, and how his Dad talks about it, he's referring to how some Starks can be wild. He doesn't at any point suggest Brandon is a "predator". Nor does anyone in the series. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

When Ned talks about it, and how his Dad talks about it, he's referring to how some Starks can be wild. He doesn't at any point suggest Brandon is a "predator". Nor does anyone in the series. 

I think that this is the infamous Brandon hate.  Because Brandon had intercourse while he wasn't married, because GRRM said that he was a natural talent with a sword and because the bs Jaime said which doesn't make sense if someone read it twice people tend to hate him.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

32 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I think that this is the infamous Brandon hate.  Because Brandon had intercourse while he wasn't married, because GRRM said that he was a natural talent with a sword and because the bs Jaime said which doesn't make sense if someone read it twice people tend to hate him.

It's a nerd complex. We all know that if Brandon lived in our time he would be wearing a leather jacket and totally rocking it. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

the bs Jaime said which doesn't make sense if someone read it twice people tend to hate him.

That being said, I think Jaime had a point. Brandon (from what we know about him) was a bit like Jaime. Morally ambiguous, violent, hot-headed. That doesn't make him a scumbag though, it's why I like them both. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

19 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's a nerd complex. We all know that if Brandon lived in our time he would be wearing a leather jacket and totally rocking it. 

I had never thought about it that way but yes. Brandon would had been one of those guys who does everything right, is handsome and popular and people are jealous of it.

9 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That being said, I think Jaime had a point. Brandon (from what we know about him) was a bit like Jaime. Morally ambiguous, violent, hot-headed. That doesn't make him a scumbag though, it's why I like them both. 

I am not sure about violent tho. Maybe it's because of the different language but in my language violence has a negative trait and from what we have seen, at least in my first language, Brandon hadn't shown negative violent traits.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am not sure about violent tho. Maybe it's because of the different language but in my language violence has a negative trait and from what we have seen, at least in my first language, Brandon hadn't shown negative violent traits.

Perhaps not, we don't know enough about him. Except he likes the look of blood on his sword, wanted to fight Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, and rode into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar come out and die (like a badass). He was definitely hot-headed and quick to draw - like Jaime.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Perhaps not, we don't know enough about him. Except he likes the look of blood on his sword, wanted to fight Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, and rode into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar come out and die (like a badass). He was definitely hot-headed and quick to draw - like Jaime.  

Also what I meant about Jaime is that I don't really believe what he told about Brandon.  What Jaime said doesn’t make sense if someone looks it closely. He told that Brandon went to KL demanding Rhaegar to get out and die. How he was able to know that? The way I see it there are two ways; one Jaime happened to be on the Walls of KL the same moment Brandon arrived or second Brandon and his friends were allowed to ender Red Keep armed and they arrived to the Throne Room or at least any room where Aerys or at least Jaime was and screamed Brandon to come out and die.

So it seems to me that it’s not impossible that Brandon never screamed “come out and die” like a badass but also fool, he went to KL to get his sister back tho. But someone else who would had something to gain from a hostile tension between the Great Houses and the Targs could had created the whole “Brandon screamed treason” situation.

[estermonty python]

1. Brandon commenting on his "bloody sword" is a double entendre.  It has nothing to do with him being violent - it has to do with him deflowering women.  People are getting too deep in the weeds on his character; I think he's just a Sonny Corleone type - hotheaded, womanizing, fiercely loyal to his family.  And it got him killed.
2. As for the currently living Starks, I think people continually conflate factions competing in the name of one Stark or another versus those Starks actually fighting.  Maybe the Wildlings and the Knights of the Vale and the loyal Northern Lords have reason to make common cause to defeat the Boltons and take back Winterfell for the Starks.  But once that task is accomplished, the Northern Lords backing Rickon hate the Wildlings and have no reason to abandon the trueborn heir to support Ned's bastard.  Likewise, the Knights of the Vale have no reason to support Jon, who has no familial ties to the Tully-cum-Arryn line, though they might be persuaded to come over to support Rickon's claim.  Then again, if Sansa is married to Harry the Heir, she has stronger ties to the Vale than Rickon.  What seems likely is that these various factions will come into conflict, and it will be up to the cult of personality of Jon and Sansa to prevent infighting.  The question isn't whether the Starks will war with each other willingly - I think it's clear they will not (none of them, under any circumstance).  The question is whether they will be able to wield enough power and influence to prevent the armies who support them from warring with one another. 

[Oracle.Clear.Rivers]

On 8/23/2016 at 9:00 PM, estermonty python said:

The question isn't whether the Starks will war with each other willingly - I think it's clear they will not (none of them, under any circumstance).  The question is whether they will be able to wield enough power and influence to prevent the armies who support them from warring with one another. 

I think this best sums up the potential of a "Dance of Direwolves" happening. The Starks won't want to fight each other but if they don't have enough authority or charisma over the people, they're doomed to become figureheads and war would still happen. A good example was Aegon III. I doubt a traumatized kid like him at that time would want to continue the war for his sake. He's also a hostage at that time too but people supporting his claim kept fighting for his sake anyway.

Manipulations and court intrigue must be taken into account as well. Aegon II didn't care for the throne until Alicent Hightower convinced him that to become the King is the best way to protect his family from his cousin Rhaenyra. How can we say that nothing like it could happen to the Starks too? Rickon is young and pliable. LF might survive and even come out on top even if Sansa is revealed at the Vale so he could still cause chaos. Jon is still a bastard and nothing will ever change that to the eyes of some. Fake Arya seems to be a perfect trigger for any political move to happen.

Personally though, I don't want this to happen. While I like the drama of it and the interesting idea of the solid and united North breaking apart because of the Starks, there's too much going on in the books already. The North can't afford a civil war too because winter is coming. They won't stand a chance surviving the Long Night if they're divided.

[estermonty python]

2 hours ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

I think this best sums up the potential of a "Dance of Direwolves" happening. The Starks won't want to fight each other but if they don't have enough authority or charisma over the people, they're doomed to become figureheads and war would still happen. A good example was Aegon III. I doubt a traumatized kid like him at that time would want to continue the war for his sake. He's also a hostage at that time too but people supporting his claim kept fighting for his sake anyway.

Manipulations and court intrigue must be taken into account as well. Aegon II didn't care for the throne until Alicent Hightower convinced him that to become the King is the best way to protect his family from his cousin Rhaenyra. How can we say that nothing like it could happen to the Starks too? Rickon is young and pliable. LF might survive and even come out on top even if Sansa is revealed at the Vale so he could still cause chaos. Jon is still a bastard and nothing will ever change that to the eyes of some. Fake Arya seems to be a perfect trigger for any political move to happen.

Personally though, I don't want this to happen. While I like the drama of it and the interesting idea of the solid and united North breaking apart because of the Starks, there's too much going on in the books already. The North can't afford a civil war too because winter is coming. They won't stand a chance surviving the Long Night if they're divided.

I like the idea of alliances starting to break down along these lines, with the Manderlys, Stannis's Kings Men, the Knights of the Vale, and the WIldlings all pursuing their own interests and coming into conflict, paralleling the blacks vs the greens.  I ALSO like the idea of the strong moral foundation passed down by Ned informing Jon and Sansa's commitment NOT to fight with one another, despite not being particularly close as children, and successfully politicking their way to such a peace.  It would be nice to see at least one thing Ned did in his life pay off.

[Lady Topspin]

On 8/21/2016 at 1:14 PM, Julia H. said:

That's your opinion, but there are those of us who find Jon's story line with his introspection and moral dilemmas fascinating enough without the addition of cheap horror elements. 

 

It sure is my opinion.  I do find Jon and his story arc boring.