Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

"What are these glass candles?" asked Roone.

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. "The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try."

 

 

 

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

"What are these glass candles?" asked Roone.

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. "The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try."

A mockery of an old ritual? or a process to select the acolytes that can open their third eye?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

47 minutes ago, Tucu said:

A mockery of an old ritual? or a process to select the acolytes that can open their third eye?

both i think. It is an old ritual, because Maesters used to be asked to light a glass candle (which demands blood magic) when they were initialized. Considered it a last test if you will.

The origins of the Citadel and the order of Maesters are much more close to magic than the current Maesters would like to think.

Darkness seems to be a requisite for magic here as well.In a sense they were opening their third eye to be introduced to the order.

Today maesters would like to think that magic never existed, but we know for a fact that they learned the art of ravenry from greenseers and skinchangers in the early days of the Age of Heroes..

 

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

both i think. It is an old ritual, because Maesters used to be asked to light a glass candle (which demands blood magic) when they were initialized. Considered it a last test if you will.

 

The origins of the Citadel and the order of Maesters are much more close to magic than the current Maesters would like to think.

 

Darkness seems to be a requisite for magic here as well.In a sense they were opening their third eye to be introduced to the order.

 

Today maesters would like to think that magic never existed, but we know for a fact that they learned the art of ravenry from greenseers and skinchangers in the early days of the Age of Heroes..

 

 

 

But what have they been doing with the acolytes that were succesful? The last dragon died 150 years ago, so the glass candles were probably burning then. Skinchanging never stopped working (BR as evidence).

Can we expect a secret cabal within the maesters?

[Dorian Martell]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

In ACoK Arya X, Arya has a strange conversation with the Old Gods that inspire her to escape Harrenhal. It starts with her praying to the Old Gods, then a very distant lonely wolf (farther than her wolfpack) answers her call; then she talks with Tree-Ned.

This scene is even weirder than Jon's Tree-Bran dream.

That is an interesting one. It fits the realtime of Bran in the crypts, but she hears Ned's voice. I don't know what to make of that just yet 

[ravenous reader]

On 8/27/2016 at 11:20 AM, LynnS said:

Hah!  Best rabbit-hole ever!  Loved the whole thing! LOL

Thanks Lynn!  I appreciate it.  High praise indeed from one of the swiftest 'rabbits' around! 

On 8/27/2016 at 2:29 AM, Dorian Martell said:

Ghost has always been in the mountains. They are in the Skirling pass. the fast growing weirwood tree is sprouting out of rock. 
The gap in time is Bran holding Jons attention. A connection is made through ghost and now Bran can speak directly to Jon. It is the same night and the same dream, but Ghost moved a bit, and he saw the wildling encampment. 

OK, sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by 'real time'-- agree with 'same night, same dream.' However, it's still not clear that all of the dream content is taking place on the 'same night'!   If Bran is contacting Jon from Bloodraven's cave, then there is definitely time travel. However, if he's contacting him from the crypt, then not necessarily, although it doesn't rule it out from the perspective of the dream content. Think of the location from which Bran 'transmits' the dreams as a fixed place in time.  It doesn't follow, however, that the dreams themselves have to conform to a certain time.  So, for example, Bloodraven, sitting in his cavern unable to move, might 'transmit' the 'coma dream' to Bran, equally immobile lying in his bed in Winterfell, in so-called 'real time.'  However, the dream has its own time relations, which is not contingent on the physical rules governing the participants.  So, with their minds connecting, Bran and the three-eyed crow were able to time travel into the future.  

When you said 'the whole dream' happens in real time, I had initially assumed you meant, to use a movie metaphor, 'in one continuous take,' with which I don't agree.  Like you, I'm also leaning to the interpretation that Ghost never physically left the mountains.  Although, when Bran draws Jon/Ghost's attention, Ghost 'feels' as though he has been transported away from the mountains, probably in response to Bran's summons calling the name 'Jon.'  The text wouldn't read 'And suddenly he was back...' had there been no such break in consciousness.  So far we agree. The remaining problem, however, is explaining the unnaturally fast-growing weirwood, and this is where I suspect we diverge.  Whereas I'm tending to the idea that Ghost does not actually encounter a physical weirwood in the mountains, it sounds as though you're suggesting he does? Surely that can't be happening in real time--  'in one continuous take' -- or Ghost wouldn't have the sensation of leaving the location. Could the weirwood only be 'growing' in Ghost's/Jon's mind the way the three-eyed crow appeared in Bran's mind when he was lying in the coma? 

Also, why is the tree growing in fast-forward?  That would seem to indicate time passing, as demonstrated by the other example I gave where GRRM uses that fast-forward or -reverse technique as a kind of 'hourglass' -- the trees 'dying in reverse' --to measure out time for the reader and underscore that some kind of time-travelling is going on.  What's intriguing to consider is that this 'tree marker' is shown to us for the first time in the context of Bloodraven's weirwood tutelage, implying it's a marker of travelling through time using the 'weirwood network' specifically, not just any other conduit.  Because this marker seems to be exclusively associated with Bloodraven's cave rather than the Winterfell crypt, it's likely therefore that Jon/Ghost's dream is being sent from the cave and therefore from the future.  Although I still believe Bran made contact from the crypt -- he says so explicitly, namely that he spoke to Jon and touched him.  

On 8/27/2016 at 10:26 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It is also in the darkness of the cave that we see Bran first "skinchange" a weirwood tree.  His entire last chapter in dance seems dedicated to this fact.  Up until that point we never see him go into a tree, and it seems strongly implied if not explicitly stated that he has never done so before.

I agree with this.

On 8/27/2016 at 10:26 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Chronologically speaking I think it also matches up with info we get in Arya chapters.  Throughout Feast and Dance we know Arya dreams of Nymeria, yet we never hear of a tree watching her.

  Reveal hidden contents

Then in the Mercy sample chapter from winds, chronologically probably after Brans tree experience from his last chapter in Dance, Arya mentions a tree watching her.

I think this is just evidence of there being a moment in time when Bran begins to be able to use the trees.  Pre-his last chapter of Dance that ability does not seem to exist.

It isn't strictly true, however, that Arya is not watched by a tree until TWOW.  Please see ACOK-Arya X (excerpt given below).  As I emphasized in my essay, the usual time relations do not apply to Bran.  Once he's plugged in to the weirwood, he's always been plugged in, even when he wasn't plugged in!  It's perfectly conceivable that Bran could've contacted Arya from the future as well as in 'real time.'

On 8/27/2016 at 2:29 AM, Dorian Martell said:

the fast growing weirwood tree is sprouting out of rock. 

What's your theory for why it's so fast growing?  Do you think it's the same one as that at Bloodraven's cave?

On 8/27/2016 at 1:10 AM, Dorian Martell said:

Jon's third eye is not open. Ghost's is, and Jon can skinchange with ghost

Bran touches Jon via Ghost and opens his third eye (he did the same with Theon).

On 8/27/2016 at 2:29 AM, Dorian Martell said:

 I am not sure where Arya hears Bran via a weirwood tree. Chapter? 

 

On 8/27/2016 at 7:59 AM, Tucu said:

In ACoK Arya X, Arya has a strange conversation with the Old Gods that inspire her to escape Harrenhal. It starts with her praying to the Old Gods, then a very distant lonely wolf (farther than her wolfpack) answers her call; then she talks with Tree-Ned.

 

Quote

ACOK-Arya X

In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried it to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed.

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."

"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

That night she lay in her narrow bed upon the scratchy straw, listening to the voices of the living and the dead whisper and argue as she waited for the moon to rise. They were the only voices she trusted anymore. She could hear the sound of her own breath, and the wolves as well, a great pack of them now. They are closer than the one I heard in the godswood, she thought. They are calling to me.

Granted, this is a case of 'circumstantial evidence' for Bran's presence, but the markers are there, namely 'rustling leaves,' 'wind,' a 'wolf,' and the 'eyes.'  Like Arya, Theon similarly kneels in extremis and prays to the old gods before a weirwood tree -- and Bran answers.  So, I'm extrapolating this might also be Bran answering Arya here.  I think he 'channels' Ned's words to her in some way, in order to give her inspiration.  Of course, the in-world 'rational' explanation would be nothing more than Arya's stream of consciousness which suggests a memory of Ned's voice and message, but the author, I believe, wishes us to entertain the notion that Bran may be contacting her and the others via the weirwood in the Westeros-wide godswood network.

On 8/27/2016 at 2:29 AM, Dorian Martell said:

Or, there is no time travel at all. 

GRRM certainly wishes to indulge in the idea:

Quote

“Close your eyes,” said the three-eyed crow. “Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see.”

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man’s gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard’s lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

Ned is already dead at this point.  Therefore, Bran is partaking in a time that is already gone.  Alternatively, he is simply a highly imaginative, suggestible child who enjoys telling stories, or perhaps he is hallucinating. Because this is a fantasy genre, the most likely explanation is that we're supposed to suspend our disbelief and go with the time-travelling (analogous to all the 'fake' genetics schemes GRRM dreams up which have no basis in reality and do not readily submit themselves to satisfactory categorization).

Quote

 

“Winterfell,” Bran whispered.

His father looked up. “Who’s there?” he asked, turning …

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.

This cannot be happening in 'real time.'  As I said, Ned is dead and gone.  Winterfell is under Bolton control and Bran is in Bloodraven's Hollow.  He's eavesdropping on his father in the past, via 'Ned's' heart tree.  But it's not Ned's; it's Bran's (see my case for that in my essay above).  The fadeout from past back to present sounds similar to Ghost 'suddenly' being transported 'back' to the mountains, representing a shift in consciousness, although the time relations may differ for each case respectively.

Quote

“Tell us what you saw.” From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”

No, he's dead at this point.  Bran either travelled back in time, or he is in denial.

Quote

 

“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”

“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”

“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”

 

The 'rational' explanation would be that it's wishful thinking on Bran's part.  Leaf, ironically, is the voice of reason.  In fact, she sounds like Maester Luwin who ironically never believed in her existence!  More reasonable explanations aside, GRRM's poetic license nevertheless wishes to conjure up the idea of time travel.  In the same way, GRRM as author imagines immortality for the writers (read: 'singers') who are subsumed within the tree.  Perhaps this is just wishful thinking and fantastical denial on the part of an aging writer contemplating his own mortality?  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a driftof dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

I don't know how else to characterize this passage except to say Bran is time-travelling back in time to the Bronze age.  What's your explanation for what's going on here?'  Why do the weirwoods shrink and 'die in reverse'?  Surely that's not normal!

On 8/27/2016 at 2:29 AM, Dorian Martell said:

Again, why bring time travel into it if things are going to bet set?

GRRM is very interested in all things sci fi, so I guess he wishes to dabble with time travel in his own writing.  And time paradoxes are quite interesting, aren't they, even though they are 'set' in a closed time loop?  

Spoiler

The Hodor time loop as presented in the HBO show was quite thought-provoking, for example.  Hence, the enthusiastic reception of that particular episode.  Wyllis was fated to be 'Hodor,' but without Bran's intervention from the future, meddling in a time before he was born, Wyllis would never have been 'Hodor,' might never have 'held the door,' being in a position in the first place to become 'Hodor.'

I'm not a philosopher, unfortunately, so I'm unable to offer a probing comment on the compatibility of free will and fatalism.  That said, we're locked into believing that we are free agents, regardless; the way one eagerly reads a story, despite the fact that it's 'already written' and will come to an end.  I don't think Tyrion thinks for a moment 'things are set,' even though 'George' already knows what's in store for him!  

Quote

“A man must know how to look before he can hope to see,” said Lord Brynden. “Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.”

But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”

“He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

 

Think of trying to change the past as equivalent with trying to change the future.  It's unpredictable and might not work out, but one tries, and the outcome becomes history as we know it.

On 8/27/2016 at 1:10 AM, Dorian Martell said:

The issue with time travel is that it negates the whole story.

I don't think it 'negates' the story necessarily; it enriches it, the way dramatic/tragic irony always does.  

On 8/27/2016 at 1:10 AM, Dorian Martell said:

Why not travel back in time and remove the threat of the others before they strike. That leads to a boring story.

Playing with time and trying to avert certain consequences is probably not that simple.  For example, this famous quote by GRRM:

Quote

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

The unexpected way in which the expected outcome is fulfilled against all odds is not 'boring' at all!

From this interview: http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

On 8/27/2016 at 1:18 PM, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

It is an old ritual, because Maesters used to be asked to light a glass candle (which demands blood magic) when they were initialized. Considered it a last test if you will.

 

The origins of the Citadel and the order of Maesters are much more close to magic than the current Maesters would like to think.

 

Darkness seems to be a requisite for magic here as well.In a sense they were opening their third eye to be introduced to the order.

 

Today maesters would like to think that magic never existed, but we know for a fact that they learned the art of ravenry from greenseers and skinchangers in the early days of the Age of Heroes..

Good points!  The glass candles are very mysterious.  I hope we'll find out more in future.

 

[Tucu]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Granted, this is a case of 'circumstantial evidence' for Bran's presence, but the markers are there, namely 'rustling leaves,' 'wind,' a 'wolf,' and the 'eyes.'  Like Arya, Theon similarly kneels in extremis and prays to the old gods before a weirwood tree -- and Bran answers.  So, I'm extrapolating this might also be Bran answering Arya here.  I think he 'channels' Ned's words to her in some way, in order to give her inspiration.  Of course, the in-world 'rational' explanation would be nothing more than Arya's stream of consciousness which suggests a memory of Ned's voice and message, but the author, I believe, wishes us to entertain the notion that Bran may be contacting her and the others via the weirwood in the Westeros-wide godswood network.
 

 

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

That is an interesting one. It fits the realtime of Bran in the crypts, but she hears Ned's voice. I don't know what to make of that just yet 

Yes, that passage really points towards Bran (either Bran's more-powerful-than-expected subconscious or Out-of-Time Bran). I guess it can be explained by BR or the Greenmen mascarading as one of the wolfpack, but why include all the wolf details?

[ravenous reader]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

Yes, that passage really points towards Bran (either Bran's more-powerful-than-expected subconscious or Out-of-Time Bran). I guess it can be explained by BR or the Greenmen mascarading as one of the wolfpack, but why include all the wolf details?

See these essays in which we strongly identify the 'wolf' component with the old gods, particularly in relation to the Starks and Bran as their major proponent:

Part I:

 

Part II:

 

Part III to follow.

[Dorian Martell]

20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

OK, sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by 'real time'-- agree with 'same night, same dream.' However, it's still not clear that all of the dream content is taking place on the 'same night'!   If Bran is contacting Jon from Bloodraven's cave, then there is definitely time travel. However, if he's contacting him from the crypt, then not necessarily, although it doesn't rule it out from the perspective of the dream content. Think of the location from which Bran 'transmits' the dreams as a fixed place in time.  It doesn't follow, however, that the dreams themselves have to conform to a certain time.  So, for example, Bloodraven, sitting in his cavern unable to move, might 'transmit' the 'coma dream' to Bran, equally immobile lying in his bed in Winterfell, in so-called 'real time.'  However, the dream has its own time relations, which is not contingent on the physical rules governing the participants.  So, with their minds connecting, Bran and the three-eyed crow were able to time travel into the future.  

I am saying the dream content happens on the same night, Jon misses some of ghost's travels because he is talking to Bran via weirnet.  Bran is not talking to Jon in the CTOF cave, he is talking to Jon from the winterfell crypts. Jon's perception of the dream is what is the variable. He is having in effect a greendream withing a wolf dream because of Bran. He is seeing through ghost first, then Bran takes his attention away and shost does some traveling them Bran sends him back to ghost. At least that is what I got out of it.  

30 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Also, why is the tree growing in fast-forward?  That would seem to indicate time passing, as demonstrated by the other example I gave where GRRM uses that fast-forward or -reverse technique as a kind of 'hourglass' -- the trees 'dying in reverse' --to measure out time for the reader and underscore that some kind of time-travelling is going on.  What's intriguing to consider is that this 'tree marker' is shown to us for the first time in the context of Bloodraven's weirwood tutelage, implying it's a marker of travelling through time using the 'weirwood network' specifically, not just any other conduit.  Because this marker seems to be exclusively associated with Bloodraven's cave rather than the Winterfell crypt, it's likely therefore that Jon/Ghost's dream is being sent from the cave and therefore from the future.  Although I still believe Bran made contact from the crypt -- he says so explicitly, namely that he spoke to Jon and touched him.  

There is nothing to indicate the tree is growing in fast forward. What is remarkable that it is a sapling that seems to be growing out of rock with little or no soil or support, yet it is still growing skyward and it is connected to the weirnet. To be clear about what I mean by the "conduit"

Jon<->Ghost.  Ghost<->Weirwood. Bran<->Weirwood. Jon-/-weirwood therefore, Jon<->Ghost<->weirwood<->Bran. so that is how Bran talks to Jon.  
Now, what Bran sees in his weirwood rewinds is just images. That is why when he tries to speak with Ned all ned hears is a rustling of leaves. 
 

40 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What's your theory for why it's so fast growing?  Do you think it's the same one as that at Bloodraven's cave?

As I stated above, I do not think the tree is fast growing.  I think ghotsJon is remarking on the strangeness of the sapling growing out of rocks. Bran has opened his third eye, but he still needs to find the 3 eyed raven. Him being able to reach out to his brother via a direwolf  would make sense as his own wolf connection is very strong. 

50 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Bran touches Jon via Ghost and opens his third eye (he did the same with Theon).

He didn't open their third eyes. They never use the weirnet after. When Bran's eyes are open he can communicate via the weirnet. Bran touches Jon's mind and they talk. Theon hears a whisper. He does not talk to Bran 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Granted, this is a case of 'circumstantial evidence' for Bran's presence, but the markers are there, namely 'rustling leaves,' 'wind,' a 'wolf,' and the 'eyes.'  Like Arya, Theon similarly kneels in extremis and prays to the old gods before a weirwood tree -- and Bran answers.  So, I'm extrapolating this might also be Bran answering Arya here.  I think he 'channels' Ned's words to her in some way, in order to give her inspiration.  Of course, the in-world 'rational' explanation would be nothing more than Arya's stream of consciousness which suggests a memory of Ned's voice and message, but the author, I believe, wishes us to entertain the notion that Bran may be contacting her and the others via the weirwood in the Westeros-wide godswood network.

I am with you on this, like theon, Arya hears her dads words and his voice. It could be Bran talking to her with Ned's words so she hears his voice, or it could be akin to the dreams Bran and Rickon have when they talk to their father in the crypts. Both can be right at this point. Magic is supposed to be mysterious for GRRM. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

GRRM certainly wishes to indulge in the idea:

He doesn't at all in any way what so ever. He makes a very specific point of having Bloodraven explain to Bran that you cannot communicate or effect the past in any way. That is why when Bran tries to speak with past Ned, all ned hears is rustling of leaves. that is the extent of it. With the half decade + between novels, fans end up looking for new things in the text and often ignore the actual words in front of them. That is all the bran time travel theories are.   

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Ned is already dead at this point.  Therefore, Bran is partaking in a time that is already gone.  Alternatively, he is simply a highly imaginative, suggestible child who enjoys telling stories, or perhaps he is hallucinating. Because this is a fantasy genre, the most likely explanation is that we're supposed to suspend our disbelief and go with the time-travelling (analogous to all the 'fake' genetics schemes GRRM dreams up which have no basis in reality and do not readily submit themselves to satisfactory categorization).

Bran is not traveling in time. He is watching past events, like a weirwood version of a video playback. It is a magical playback, but with all his shouting to his dad, Ned just hears a whisper. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

This cannot be happening in 'real time.'  As I said, Ned is dead and gone.  Winterfell is under Bolton control and Bran is in Bloodraven's Hollow.  He's eavesdropping on his father in the past, via 'Ned's' heart tree.  But it's not Ned's; it's Bran's (see my case for that in my essay above).  The fadeout from past back to present sounds similar to Ghost 'suddenly' being transported 'back' to the mountains, representing a shift in consciousness, although the time relations may differ for each case respectively.

Correct. It is not real time. He is watching the past unfold as it always has. Yes there is a fadeout, but as I have stated above, ghost never left the mountains. It was Jon's perception that left while ghost padded around. Bran watching things rewind is different from Bran contacting Jon and Jon not being aware of Ghost's movements

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

No, he's dead at this point.  Bran either travelled back in time, or he is in denial.

Exactly. This is Bran not understanding what he is seeing. This is where bloodraven explains that time travel and affecting the past is impossible. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The 'rational' explanation would be that it's wishful thinking on Bran's part.  Leaf, ironically, is the voice of reason.  In fact, she sounds like Maester Luwin who ironically never believed in her existence!  More reasonable explanations aside, GRRM's poetic license nevertheless wishes to conjure up the idea of time travel.  In the same way, GRRM as author imagines immortality for the writers (read: 'singers') who are subsumed within the tree.  Perhaps this is just wishful thinking and fantastical denial on the part of an aging writer contemplating his own mortality?  

It is totally wishful thinking on the part of a 10 year old boy.  Bran wishes for a time before the books, when he could walk, with his parents, and his brothers all alive and safe in Winterfell. He longs to speak to his father again, but he cannot, because there is not time travel. I know you see it, but I do not, and I do not think the author means for it to be so
I like the analogy of the greenseer's conciousness becoming part of the weirnet as an allegory for GRRM's own mortality as a writer. Very interesting. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 I don't know how else to characterize this passage except to say Bran is time-travelling back in time to the Bronze age.  What's your explanation for what's going on here?'  Why do the weirwoods shrink and 'die in reverse'?  Surely that's not normal!

Bran is watching past events through the eyes of the tree. He watches it grow and he watches people around it.  That is why everything he sees is in the godswood.  Much like how he needed first could only skinchange summer, but later Hodor, and then Ravens outside the cave, bloodraven tells bran that as his power grows he will be able to see things farther and farther away and without the assistance of the weirwood trees. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

GRRM is very interested in all things sci fi, so I guess he wishes to dabble with time travel in his own writing.  And time paradoxes are quite interesting, aren't they, even though they are 'set' in a fixed time loop?  

  Reveal hidden contents

The Hodor time loop as presented in the HBO show was quite thought-provoking, for example.  Hence, the enthusiastic reception of that particular episode.  Wyllis was fated to be 'Hodor,' but without Bran's intervention from the future, meddling in a time before he was born, Wyllis would never have been 'Hodor,' might never have 'held the door,' being in a position in the first place to become 'Hodor.'

I'm not a philosopher, unfortunately, so I'm unable to offer a probing comment on the compatibility of free will and fatalism.  That said, we're locked into believing that we are free agents, regardless; the way one eagerly reads a story, despite the fact that it's 'already written' and will come to an end.  I don't think Tyrion thinks for a moment 'things are set,' even though 'George' already knows what's in store for him!  

Think of trying to change the past as equivalent with trying to change the future.  It's unpredictable and might not work out, but one tries, and the outcome becomes history as we know it.

The quote you put about Bloodraven talking to bran is actually the passage where he explains why there is no time travel. I don't know how much more explicit GRRM can be when he says   "Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”   
 Aka, there is no time travel, just viewing the past.

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't think it 'negates' the story necessarily; it enriches it, the way dramatic/tragic irony always does.  

If Bran could travel back in time, he would be able to warn his dad, who would then rally the north and the watch for teh impending invasion of the Others. Instead, all we have is weirnet, so bran can see the past and learn from it, but not alter it. That is where the drama is. That is what I meant by time travel "negating" the story. A McGuffin like time travel would render all the drama of the story irrevelant as all bran has to do is travel back in time and warn people. Boom, happy ending. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Playing with time and trying to avert certain consequences is probably not that simple.  For example, this famous quote by GRRM:

The unexpected way in which the expected outcome is fulfilled against all odds is not 'boring' at all!

From this interview: http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

You are conflating prophecy with time travel. Prophecy is words that people who can't time travel use to guide them. Time travel would be directly changing past events to alter the future. GRRM makes it very clear in the books that prophecy is bogus and isn't worth wiping your butt with. That is why prophecy never works out in the books.  Those who rely on it always fail, except for Cersei. Her prophecy seems to be right on. I guess you would call that the exception that proves the rule  

[Dorian Martell]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Yes, that passage really points towards Bran (either Bran's more-powerful-than-expected subconscious or Out-of-Time Bran). I guess it can be explained by BR or the Greenmen mascarading as one of the wolfpack, but why include all the wolf details?

Or the spirit of the first men talking through their "gods" a la Bran and Rickon talking to Ned in the winterfell crypts the night he died 

[Clegane'sPup]

Don't much care how someone wants to spin it. Bran ain't doing no time travel. He has visions that allows him to see the past, the future and the present. Frecking visions, I don't need to rewrite Martin's novels. Start at novel one read to novel five. Shite, Martin is ambiguous enough without adding all the references to other writers and false foreshadowing. I mean, if Martin crafted all of his ideas from other sources, he ain't that good of a writer. 

 

 

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Bran is not talking to Jon in the CTOF cave, he is talking to Jon from the winterfell crypts.

We are agreed on this.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He is having in effect a greendream withing a wolf dream because of Bran. He is seeing through ghost first, then Bran takes his attention away and shost does some traveling them Bran sends him back to ghost.

I like your idea of a greendream nested within a wolf dream.  

So, according to your model there is an actual weirwood which ghost encounters in the landscape?

Then Bran takes Jon's attention away -- to where?

Who sees the weirwood growing in fast-forward:  Jon and/or Ghost?

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

There is nothing to indicate the tree is growing in fast forward.

This strongly suggests that it is growing in fast-forward time lapse:

Quote

The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face.

It starts out slender, then the trunk thickens before his eyes (the age of a tree is represented by the rings in its trunk laid on with each progressive year).  It starts out short and then grows upward 'reaching for the sky.'  So, the tree is maturing in front of him.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

What is remarkable that it is a sapling that seems to be growing out of rock with little or no soil or support,

Good point.  This could have both metaphorical and literal significance.  Regarding the latter, do you think this is the same tree as the one at Bloodraven's cave?  Those weirwoods also spring out of the rock forming the cave.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Jon<->Ghost<->weirwood<->Bran. so that is how Bran talks to Jon.  

Fair enough.  So, where is the wolf physically at the time Jon is connecting with Bran?  I guess you would say the mountains.  Then where is the weirwood that the wolf appears to sniff?

Quote

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

If the weirwood is not physically on the mountain with Ghost, then are you saying Ghost has a split consciousness, and he is in two places at once mentally, if not physically?

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

As I stated above, I do not think the tree is fast growing.  I think ghotsJon is remarking on the strangeness of the sapling growing out of rocks.

The text strongly suggests, as I explained above, that it is abnormally fast growing.  It's also the strangest element in the scene, and the one scene we have to account for, if we are to make sense of what's happening here.  This is a key difference between our interpretations.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Now, what Bran sees in his weirwood rewinds is just images. That is why when he tries to speak with Ned all ned hears is a rustling of leaves. 

Initially, that's true: he can only watch.  But then there are hints of progressively more advanced powers, starting with his ability to taste the blood of the Bronze-age sacrifice predating his birth.  Bran moves from watching and listening to his father, rustling leaves in return, which his father is alerted by but can't comprehend; to channeling his father's message to Arya somehow; to reaching out to Theon touching him, opening his third eye, and translating his own message to Theon from the True Tongue to the Common Tongue so that Theon comprehends their respective names.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He didn't open their third eyes. They never use the weirnet after. When Bran's eyes are open he can communicate via the weirnet.

It's implied he did attempt to open their third eyes, however the opening may have been partial or 'shuttered' (think of the wooden shutters on a window which can be adjusted so varying degrees of light are filtered through).  In other words, I believe there are different gradations of 'third-eye' opening -- Bran's capability just happens to be more advanced -- and it's not limited to communicating via the weirnet. Sometimes it signifies a moral awakening, e.g. Jaime's 'redemption arc' triggered by the weirwood dream which similarly 'pounds' a path for his third eye, inspiring him to turn the horses around and go back to Harrenhal for Brienne.  In Theon's case, Bran bestows Theon's true name on him, exorcising the ghastly 'Reek' persona which has been brutally thrust on him by Ramsay, whereafter Theon is inspired to reform himself, rescuing Jeyne, and possibly also playing a part in the 'resistance' assassinations attributed to 'a ghost in Winterfell.'  By the way, who do you think the 'ghost' refers to?

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

It could be Bran talking to her with Ned's words so she hears his voice, or it could be akin to the dreams Bran and Rickon have when they talk to their father in the crypts.

Good point.  However, Bran's more specifically been associated with the tree.  Ned is the one who prays to the tree, but not the one who answers from the tree, so I consider it less likely to be Ned.  

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He makes a very specific point of having Bloodraven explain to Bran that you cannot communicate or effect the past in any way.

My point was not a commentary on affecting the past.  You can't deny the fact of the time travel, though.  Bran goes back in time all the way to the Bronze age before his birth and tastes the blood of the sacrifice.  It's in the text -- I'm not making things up!

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Bran is not traveling in time. He is watching past events, like a weirwood version of a video playback

Yes, he's predominantly watching, but he's not completely passive.  He moves the leaves in an attempt to communicate, he tastes the blood.  There is an intersection of 'time zones' taking place.  In the scene with Theon he reaches down with the branch/leaf to touch Theon's head, so it's implied that he might be able to do this in the past as well.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

It was Jon's perception that left while ghost padded around. Bran watching things rewind is different from Bran contacting Jon and Jon not being aware of Ghost's movements

Think of the 'fadeout' as a 'gear shift' -- shifting into another gear of consciousness, as it were, in both cases.  The only problem with the theory of Jon separating from Ghost while he padded around is that the text describes the wolf padding around the sapling/tree and sniffing the trunk, etc.  So how do you account for that if the connection between the wolf and Jon is broken, and the wolf is not at the sapling site, if that even physically exists (I'm not convinced it's not all in Jon's mind).

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He longs to speak to his father again, but he cannot, because there is not time travel.

The explanation that he is projecting his desires and fears 'works' for people, scenes, and events Bran's already encountered, but not for those scenes going back in time of people he could never have witnessed personally.  How was he able to see Lyanna and her brother playing at swords, the pregnant woman praying, the woman with the bronze sickle making the sacrifice at the tree.  Who are those people? Why would Bran be thinking of them?  He doesn't love them or miss them, so what's that about?  And the weirwoods grow younger ('die in reverse') in that sequence, which hasn't been fully accounted for in your more purely-psychological version.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

I like the analogy of the greenseer's conciousness becoming part of the weirnet as an allegory for GRRM's own mortality as a writer. Very interesting. 

Ultimately, all fantasy is a psychological projection, isn't it?  Due to his troubled childhood, specifically his strained relationship with his biological father, GRRM received an early push to create alternate realities for himself, as I've speculated before:

Quote

Was your relationship with your parents close? 
My father was a distant figure. I don't think that he ever understood me, and I don't know that I ever understood him. We didn't use the term then, but you could probably say he was a functioning alcoholic. I saw him every day, but we hardly talked. The only thing that we really bonded over was sports.

Did you get out of Bayonne much before college? 
We never had a car. My father always said that drinking and driving was very bad, and he was not going to give up drinking [laughs]. My world was a very small world. For many years I stared out of our living-room window at the lights of Staten Island. To me, those lights of Staten Island were like Shangri-La, and Singapore, and Shanghai, or whatever. I read books, and I dreamed of Mars, and the planets in those books, and of the Hyborian Age of Robert E. Howard's Conan books, and later of Middle-earth – all these colorful places. I would dream of those places just as I dreamed of Staten Island, and Shanghai.

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

I don't know how much more explicit GRRM can be when he says   "Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”   

GRRM is explicit about a lot of things, then goes on to contradict himself.  I already explained how he deconstructs the 'fire consumes, ice preserves' supposed dichotomy to Little Scribe of Naath upthread.  We can't take everything he says at face value.  Bloodraven may be unable to contact his family; however, that doesn't mean Bran will be unable to.  Perhaps he's a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven. Perhaps Bloodraven suspects it's possible; perhaps he even succeeded with disastrous consequences, which he's trying to pre-empt with Bran.  Another example of GRRM's playful disingenuousness: 'Dead men sing no songs.'  This is also not true.  The weirwood conglomerate is awash with the songs of the dead, provided one knows how to tune in.  A spiritual remnant of the singers remains in the ravens -- Bran even senses one of the singers in the raven he learns to fly -- hence presumably they may be able to 'speak' or 'sing' via the birds.  If Bran were able to eavesdrop on one of Rhaegar's Summerhall songs, and were he musical enough, he could 'bring the song back with him' and replicate it in the present, giving voice to a dead man's song, one no-one else living may have heard.  There are many possibilities.

To reiterate, I'm not insisting that the past can be changed.  I believe, as I stated above, it's a fixed time loop.  Paradoxically, any modifications made have already been integrated, so they're not really intrusions so much as 'interweavings' which are already part of the fabric.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

You are conflating prophecy with time travel.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.  I was trying to make a point that no matter how hard one might try to change the past, one might end up with the same outcome anyway -- just like in the anecdote about the guy who wanted to avoid his death but just ended up precipitating it in that fashion, with a twist.   It's a caution that intervening isn't as simple as it may seem.  Not conflation -- illustration.

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Her prophecy seems to be right on. I guess you would call that the exception that proves the rule

Except for the slight contradiction in Jaime's weirwood stump dream.  He sees Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey and shadows of his ancestors going back to Lann the Clever.  Tywin and Joffrey will soon be dead and Cersei will no doubt lose her life as well.  Tywin's shade also says that he has already given Jaime a sword.  All these things are foreshadowings of future events.  Tommen and Myrcella are missing from this dream.

It's possible to enter someone's dreams using a glass candle and I suspect that her dreams are being manipulated.  She has an old recurring dream of Maggy the Frog but they take on a more sinister tone after Qyburn arrives.  In her last dream, she herself is being tortured in the black cells in the same fashion that the Blue Bard is tortured by Qyburn.  

Is it a question of entering the mind and reading what is there?  Her dreams have a completely different quality.  Nobody knows about Maggy except Cersei and whomever has been watching her dreams.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Guys,

Time travel has already happened in the books. The scene when Bran skinchanges into the weirwood for the first time, and sees his father, and whispers "Winterfell":

Quote

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …

This scene of Ned cleaning Ice has obviously occurred in the past, as he is dead in present time. However, he hears Bran when he whispers through the tree, from the future. So we already have an instance of closed loop time travel in the books - Ned always heard a whisper through the trees in the past, because Bran always speaks it from the future. Bran cannot change the past, as whatever he did in the past always happened.

It's easy to miss the full implications of this scene on first read, but it was basically GRRM telling us that Time travel is happening. Indeed, that's the only way Bran is going to learn all the history, lore and magic of Westeros, first hand.

So once we know that time travel can happen, we need to double-check scenes where there is some kind of possible communication from Bran - whispers through wind, ravens, dreams... all  the possible mediums. Hence why we cannot rule out the possibility (though I lean to it being real time) that Jon's dream of Bran as a weirwood tree is definitely real time.

The strongest argument I would offer for it being real time (apart from Bran's own words that he talked to Jon) is my theory that greenseers cannot control how they appear in other people's dreams. BR doesn't realise that he appears as a 3 eyed crow to Bran:

Quote

Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry.

Similarly, Bran doesn't realise what his avatar is in Jon's dream - which is, a heart tree.

On the other hand, we need to remember Bran's powers are still in their nascent stages at that time in the books, and he doesn't repeat this action (of appearing in other people's dream) after that. So there is a possibility that the dream could be from the future.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

Indeed, this is an interesting parallel between Jon and Bloodraven.  I think of Bloodraven and Jon as 'ice dragons.'

Totally agreed. The phrase 'ice dragon' is what one would use to describe a union of 'ice' and 'fire' - as dragons are almost always the living manifestations of fire.

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

In both cases, the heart tree with ‘knowing eyes’ at the heart of the Winterfell godswood is inhabited by Bran.  He is the ‘genius loci’ of Winterfell (for more, see our essays on ‘Bran’s growing powers,’ particularly my brief introduction (scroll down for the purple heading: 'The genius loci -- the spirit of the place') and @Tijgy’s subsequent commentary).  After doing a search for ‘knowing eyes,’ besides the three-eyed crow with his third eye filled with a ‘terrible knowledge,’ Bran is the only other one described in this way, lending credence to this hypothesis.  This has always been Bran’s tree.  It's the same tree from which he contacted Ned, Theon, and his more ancient antecedents back to the bronze age sacrificial tableau, the blood of which he was able to 'taste' despite not having been born yet, evidence further linking him to this specific tree in addition to the one in Bloodraven's hollow.  

I love this - and concur completely. Bran is Winterfell, he is the essence of what you may call 'Starkness', in a way which no other character is. He is literally the 'heart' of the place:

Quote

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn't even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stonetree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

Quote

At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell's chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

[ravenous reader]

3 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The strongest argument I would offer for it being real time (apart from Bran's own words that he talked to Jon) is my theory that greenseers cannot control how they appear in other people's dreams. BR doesn't realise that he appears as a 3 eyed crow to Bran:

Quote

Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry.

Similarly, Bran doesn't realise what his avatar is in Jon's dream - which is, a heart tree.

Beautiful.  (P.S.  The moving house went well...?!)

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

In the former example of the weirwood catching sight of itself, therefore, I think this is Bran looking at himself looking at himself looking at himself looking at himself looking at himself looking...(or, Bran reflecting on himself reflecting on a reflection of himself reflecting on a reflection of himself reflecting ...etc) -- you get the idea! (once one starts going down the time-travelling rabbit-hole, language starts to crack at the fault lines of all our assumptions and break down…). No wonder the tree is described as self-consciously 'brooding'!  

To continue my post above, as for some reason I can't seem to write below the quotes...

It can't get more obvious than the quotes I bolded: Winterfell and Bran are both described, numerous times, in the same fashion. 

Crackpot: It does not seem a coincidence, that the place where Bran fell is called 'Winter'fell. IMO, Bran is the King of Winter, just like his most famous ancestor, the Builder. 

Quote

"What has your southron god to do with snow?" demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. "This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease."

There is an excellent theory that the snows we see in ADWD are originating in Winterfell: 

In any case, there seems a definite connection between Old Gods, winter, the North, and the Starks.

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

In the former example of the weirwood catching sight of itself, therefore, I think this is Bran looking at himself looking at himself looking at himself looking at himself looking at himself looking...(or, Bran reflecting on himself reflecting on a reflection of himself reflecting on a reflection of himself reflecting ...etc) -- you get the idea! (once one starts going down the time-travelling rabbit-hole, language starts to crack at the fault lines of all our assumptions and break down…). No wonder the tree is described as self-consciously 'brooding'!  

My theory on this scene is that the spirit in the heart tree was Bran the builder looking at him, knowing that our Bran will now replace him. Our Bran seems to have a lot of similarities with the original BtB. I think if BtB had been a greenseer, he would have chosen the Winterfell heart tree as his spirit keeper, just like our Bran.

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

In contrast to the wolf dreams in which Bran gets immersed for hours and days at a time, characterized by his struggling to tune out of the dream and emerge into ‘reality,’ here Bran does a quick ‘tune in-tune out’ as if he’s briefly changing a radio station.  Another clue that this is not a normal wolf dream is that the point of view throughout is clearly Bran, whereas when he is in Summer, the wolf’s stream of consciousness takes precedence.  GRRM uses this technique deliberately to indicate a wolf dream, marked by unusual linguistic circumlocutions and other awkward constructions as a marker of the wolf’s non-verbal point of view in contrast to Bran’s more verbal stream of consciousness.

My take on the seeing-double scene was that he was 'flying', similar to his dream in AGOT where he had a birds-eye view of the world. It seemed to me in this scene he had a birds-eye view of Winterfell, not really a Summer-eyes view. But yeah, this is just speculation.  

In general, I think the scene meant to imply Bran is much, much more powerful than what BR believes him to be. He's not just an ordinary sknichanger/greenseer.

 

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Crackpot: It does not seem a coincidence, that the place where Bran fell is called 'Winter'fell. IMO, Bran is the King of Winter, just like his most famous ancestor, the Builder. 

No, not 'crackpot.' Poetry.

 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

To those of you who have read this far, successfully emerging from the 'rabbit-hole': Thanks for reading!  

Superb post, RR.  That was one of the best breakdowns of that curious Bran-Jon dream I have read!

 

On 8/26/2016 at 4:58 PM, ravenous reader said:

Perhaps it's similar to Bran's coma dream so that Bran visits Jon, both of them appearing to each other via their respective avatars Ghost and weirwood sapling, analogous to Bloodraven's visitation of Bran via the three-eyed crow.  

This was brilliant. I always wondered how and why Ghost howled in that dream. But if it was Jon appearing in his 'Ghost' avatar to Bran in his weirwood avatar on the elevated 'third eye' plane of consciousness, it makes perfect sense

 

Yep, finally done with moving (phew, it's tiring work!)

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

sense