Were Lyanna and Rhaegar in love and can we rely on prophecies?

[thewolfofStarfall]

It seems either one of the two extremes are is response 

A. Rhaegar and Lyanna were absolutely in love. So they ran away -leaving zero information about their whereabouts to their respective families- and secretly eloped in the middle of nowhere, despite polygamy being in illegal and marriage not being necessary to fulfill the TWPTP prophecy.

B. They weren't in love and Rhaegar  kidnapped and raped Lyanna

First of all, the whole "star crossed lovers"  storyline seems like a very non-GRRM thing to do, although being popular among the fans. It's a Disney sentiment and doesn't fit the mood of the story IMO. Thus, it's strange how so many fans accept this sentiment as fact, failing to question this "love story"

Secondly, the notion that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love seems to come from the "objective" standpoints of Cersei, Jamie Lannister and Barristan Selmy. The notion that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar comes from Robert which is deemed inherently unreliable. I see no reason why Roberts's assumptions can not possibly have some truth to it, while the "love story" from someone like Cersei who was in love with Rhaegar herself must be reliable.?Also, the fact that Ned doesn't think badly of Rhaegar in his POVs doesn't prove that they were in love, nor does it prove that Lyanna went willingly. Ned doesn't think baldly of the mad King Aerys who murdered his brother and father. We're not omniscient of every though Ned may have had. 

Utimately, my question was whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love not whether Lyanna went willingly. So, let's assume Lyanna went willingly. Were Rhaegar and Lyanna in love? My answer would be no.

From Rhaegar's standpoint:

The answer is sort of nuanced. It's possible Rhaegar viewed his feelings towards Lyanna as "love" the same way Robert "loved" Lyanna, however those feelings wouldn't be "love" by my standards and many others. I think Rhaegar just viewed Lyanna as a "vessel" to fulfill his all-important prophecy. It's not uncommon in this world for men to view their wives as vessels too produce heirs, and this could easily be mistaken as love. For instance Rhaegar, supposedly "fell in love" with Lyanna at the Tourney at Harrenhal, yet afterwards they both went home where Rhaegar fathered a second  child and didn't contact Lyanna's until a year later. Which also happens to be when the maesters told him Elia  would no longer be able to have anymore children. This situation sorta reminds of how Henry VIII "loved" Anne Boelyn and founded his own church in order to divorce his first wife whom bore him no sons, then later on had hostaforementioned "love" executed after no sons were born from her either.

There's the possibility that Rhaegar also  "loved" Elia, but things started to change once she couldn't have kids anymore. At first he believed Aegon was the prince that was promised and that "his is a song of ice and fire". I highly doubt he would have considered Lyanna as part of the fulfillment of that prophecy if Elia was healthy enough to have kids. In another version of the story, perhaps Rhaegar truly did love Elia and not just because of his prophecy, yet he felt the need to have a child with Lyanna because of the prophecy. Elia was his "love" and Lyanna "duty", not the reverse belief that is commonly held. 

From Lyanna's standpoint:

It's hard to tell. I don't get how Lyanna could be the KOTLT, where did she get the "booming" voice?  Even is she was, I don't think Rhaegar found Lyanna while she was unclading her armor and then suddenly fell in love after that one encounter, then dedcides we to run away with each other a year later. That's exactly the sort of l Disney nonsense I'm talking about. There's many possibltiesz Maybe she was convinced of the importance of the prophecy, maybe she was manipulated or seduced, maybe she did love Rhaegar at first but then soon realized she was just a vessel for a prophecy and her feeling for him changed. I'm not sure. 

 

My biggest question on this whole matter is if a prophecy is something that is destined to come true, then why does someone -Rhaegar- need to go out of their way to make it come true? This never made sense to me. Prophecies fulfill themselves.  Also, why are few people questioning the nature of prophecy and what it means in this story? There are direct quotes from the book that says prophecy isn't something you should rely on, yet everyone has the presumption that TPTWP prophecy is something that should be taken literally and is the solution of the whole saga. GRRM once told an interning story about  the nature of prophecy and I'll leave a quote below. I don't buy the bullshit argument of "this is a story with dragons and white walkers, therefore all prophecies in this series must come true in the most literal way possible". Certain fantastical  elements being intrinsic in a story, no way implies all fantastical elements have are legitimate For example, the gods don't necessarily have gone real, just because magic is real. People use this fallacy to defend Rhaegar's behavior and I wouldn't be surprised if someone would use this nonsense again to explain why Rhaegar had to be so pro-active for an event that is supposedly destined to come true. To summarize, my last two questions are how do we know that prophecy of TPWTP can be taken literally and not questioned and why would Rhaegar need to fuffil a prophecy when it is predestined to happen?

Quote

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw&m=1

Quote

[A] prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.[59]”

- Marwyn to Samwell Tarly

Quote

Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.[60]”

- Tyrion Lannister to Jorah Mormont

 

[Ser Leftwich]

We don't know. Anyone that says otherwise (except the author) is a liar.

[BricksAndSparrows]

38 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We don't know. Anyone that says otherwise (except the author) is a liar.

Agreed, but we have right to speculate, and some of those speculations will probably be true. But it's true, no one really knows.

 

[aikojai]

Polygamy is not illegal not for Targaryens anyway . "Like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men " . Marriage is necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled . It's three heads of the DRAGON . A DRAGON is not a bastard . A Snow is not a Stark .

Anyway I believe they were in love and married and the prophecy was just a bonus for Rhaegar .

[aikojai]

Aegon was not born until after Harrenhal so Rhaegar was not seeking another wife until after he met Lyanna and crowned her . It was after Rhaegar found out Elia could not have anymore children that he became able to act on his love for Lyanna .  Look at the similarities in the passages with Ned describing Rhaegar's performance at Harrenhal and Jorah's when he recants the story of how his newfound love for Lynesse gave him an unbeatable drive in a joust with the root behind it being hia desire to crown Lynesse as the queen of love and beauty :

"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty," - ACOK .

"Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning." - AGOT .

Also Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree . As to the booming voice Catelyn did not recognize that Brienne was a female until after she removed her armor .

If anyone is like Henry VIII desperate to gain a male heir that would be Maegor though Robert is like Henry in terms of behavior and personality .

The ASOIAF  app also said that Rhaegar and Elia's relations were amiable but it was not a love match . So Lyanna is "love" and Elia "duty" . That question has already been answered .

[aikojai]

You're wrong . A star-crossed lovers romance is exactly the thing GRRM would do . He has done it tons of times already : Jon and Ygritte , Renly and Loras , Aemon and Naerys , Robb and Jeyne , Ned and Catelyn etc . Ned doesn't think badly of Aerys . Is there really any sense to get mad at mad man ?! Ned does say Lyanna's "wolf blood" brought her to an early grave . He would not say this if Lyanna was a victim .

Robert's also unreliable because he is a great master at self-delusion (my kids are mine , my brother-in-law protects my wife only , i'm fit to join the melee , it's safe for me to attack a boar while drunk etc.)

This is not a Disney story . It doesn't come with a happy ending . This is one huge tragedy . A better comparison is Romeo and Juliet which is a tragedy .

[GhostNymeria]

I do believe they were in love, but only after Rhaegars "kidnapping". The theory I find most realistic about these events, is that Aerys somehow found out Lyanna was the Knight of the laughing tree, and because of his paranoia against the Starks, he sent men to arrest her. Rhaegar found out about this and took his closest companions with him to prevent this. It seems that people in Westeros thinks that Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point, which would make sense if there were witnesses to this event. Maybe there was a confrontation between Aerys men and Rhaegar and his companions, with Lyanna in the middle. Not a sword figth, but threaths at sword point, before Rhaegar and his men took Lyanna away to protect her. Witnesses (some commoners) saw this from afar, and assumed Rhaegar and his men and Aerys men were on the same side (who wouldn't if you didn't know the context), and that the pointing swords was targeted at Lyanna.

After Rhaegar took Lyanna away to protect her, it makes sense that Aerys disinherited him. It was already tense between them, but Rhaegar committing high treason against him could be the last straw.

The question about this theory is why Rhaegar personally decided to travel to the Riverlands after Lyanna, and not just send some men he trusted, like Aerys did. Maybe he did feel something for her after Harrenhal and decided to personally protect her. But what I find more likely is that he wanted to prevent a war from breaking out (which he failed obviously). Maybe he didn't know who he could trust in court after someone slipped to Aerys that Lyanna was tKotLT, and despite people's dislike for Aerys, I can imagine that not many would be willing to commit hight treason against the Mad king. And it seems like Rhaegar was very well aware what the other big lords of Westeros thought about Aerys reign and that the situation was very tense, since he himself was planning to call a council where "changes would be made", as he told Jaime. So basically, he knew all hell would brake loose in Westeros if Aerys arrested Lord Rickard Stark's little daughter, and since he couldn't trust anyone at court, he decided to prevent it himself, with only his few closest friends who he knew he could trust.

[thewolfofStarfall]

On August 23, 2016 at 1:01 AM, aikojai said:

Polygamy is not illegal not for Targaryens anyway . "Like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men " . Marriage is necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled . It's three heads of the DRAGON . A DRAGON is not a bastard . A Snow is not a Stark .

Anyway I believe they were in love and married and the prophecy was just a bonus for Rhaegar .

The prophecy is based on MAGIC, more specifically BLOOD magic, not on socially constructed laws such as marriage, bastards, or names. If an individual has a Stark parent or ancestor then that person has Stark blood, regardless of their society's law or custom. So, you're  saying if someone's parents weren't married when they were conceived, that implies that the laws of heredity no longer apply, and that individual doesn't have their parents genes? That makes absolutely no sense. Even Ned tells Jon that he may not have his name, but he has his blood which makes him a Stark.

[aikojai]

4 minutes ago, thewolfofStarfall said:

The prophecy is based on MAGIC, more specifically BLOOD magic, not on socially constructed laws such as marriage, bastards, or names. If an individual has a Stark parent or ancestor then that person has Stark blood, regardless of their society's law or custom. So, you're  saying if someone's parents weren't married when they were conceived, that implies that the laws of heredity no longer apply, and that individual doesn't have their parents genes? That makes absolutely no sense. Even Ned tells Jon that he may not have his name, but he has his blood which makes him a Stark.

Who said the prophecy is based on blood magic ? Yes Jon is a Stark . He is half Stark . When since I said he wasn't a Stark ?

R+L=J makes him both a Stark and a Targaryen . All you people going on about how despite R+L=J Jon is still a Stark seem to forget or willfully ignore the big "L" in the equation !!!!!!!!!!

[Jon Fossoway]

Lyanna doesn't strike me as one to buy at face value southron prophecies. Having the 'blood of the wolf' means being reckless, bold and a little dumb. If Rhaegar kidnapped her and showed her something that made her, in the end, believe anything, it was firstly against her will. I don't see 'em falling for each at first sight other and making a run for it. That's just stoopid.

[thewolfofStarfall]

On August 23, 2016 at 1:20 AM, aikojai said:

You're wrong . A star-crossed lovers romance is exactly the thing GRRM would do . He has done it tons of times already : Jon and Ygritte , Renly and Loras , Aemon and Naerys , Robb and Jeyne , Ned and Catelyn etc . Ned doesn't think badly of Aerys . Is there really any sense to get mad at mad man ?! Ned does say Lyanna's "wolf blood" brought her to an early grave . He would not say this if Lyanna was a victim .

Robert's also unreliable because he is a great master at self-delusion (my kids are mine , my brother-in-law protects my wife only , i'm fit to join the melee , it's safe for me to attack a boar while drunk etc.)

This is not a Disney story . It doesn't come with a happy ending . This is one huge tragedy . A better comparison is Romeo and Juliet which is a tragedy .

Maybe "star crossed lovers" wasn't the best phrase to use to get my point across. There's nothing inherently wrong with a star crossed love storyline, it's the context that the idea is put into, that may transform into a cliched fairly tale. Jon and Ygritte is a love story, but it's not idealistic whatsoever. For instance, it's set against a background of war and enemity that's been waging between their respective groups for millennia. The characters themselves make an unconventional romance compared to the Mary Sues and Gary Stus of cliché romantic fiction. Jon's a bastard and member of a military order of misfits. Ygritte is a warrior woman, which is acceptable in the wilding culture, but not in Jon's culture. Athough she's pretty in the show, she has unconventional features in the books--crooked teeth and eyes that are too far apart, but Jons views her as beautiful. Now, compare this to what we know about Rhaegar and Lyanna's love story. A prince and a noblewoman fall in love. The prince is literally described as the handsomest man in the realm, and the girl is of coarse beautiful, yet "badass" and uninhibited compared to other noble ladies blah blah blah blah (the typical "cooler than other girls" trope). Their ideal perfection makes them "destined for each other" and they fall in love as soon as they meet. They're also selfish af, so they decide to run away togetherleaving zero information to their respective families.  War is a nearly inevitable outcome when a daughter of a lord paramount who is also engaged to another lord paramount (who is a reckless and violent motherfucker) suddenly vanishes-and the person who is responsible for the disappearance is the crown prince. You think they would know this, but they choose to run away because they are idiots. But this is all okay because they were "madly in love.... Lmao.....

That's bullshit, so I really hope there's more to the story.  Just because they die in the end, doesn't make it a "tragedy" or at least one worth reading about.  Rhaegar and Lyanna's dumb descions is what led them to their demise, and more importantly thousands of people. Because of this, I'm not sure if I would actually call them "star crossed lovers", it wasn't their circumstances or the people around that made their relationship "impossible", it was their own decisions that caused the fucked situation. 

Sidenote: Some of the pairings you list as examples of star crossed lovers actually aren't at all. Ned  and Catelyn aren't star crossed, they weren't planning on being with each in the first place. Ideally, Catelyb would have married Brandon. A better example would be Ned and Ashara or maybe even Brandon and Ashara. I don't how Robb and Jeyne are star crossed just because one of them ends being murdered at a wedding for breaking his oath. I'm not sure if Renly and Loras could be accurately described as star crossed either.

[thewolfofStarfall]

On August 23, 2016 at 1:01 AM, aikojai said:

Polygamy is not illegal not for Targaryens anyway . "Like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men " . Marriage is necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled . It's three heads of the DRAGON . A DRAGON is not a bastard . A Snow is not a Stark .

Anyway I believe they were in love and married and the prophecy was just a bonus for Rhaegar .

Explain how Maegor the Cruel was exiled for taking a second wife, why Jaehearys I had to make an agreement with the Faith Militant after the uprisings,  or how the 300 year old dynasty that answered  to "neither gods nor men", were overthrown in just over a year. That phrase shows how some members (probably most reallly) of house Targaryen once viewed themselves. Tey were obviously wrong. No one is above gods and men, and even dragons can be killed.

[NorthernXY]

Can someone explain to me why Blue Winter Roses were the crown for the Maid of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal?  It's a little on the nose for them to be present to crown Lyanna.  I've never heard about there being unique flowers for every realm, so I assumed there was only one crown.  Taking that into account, he obviously planned on crowning Lyanna before the tourney was held.  Would he plan on winning the tourney then crowning his wife from Dorne with BWR?  I think not; the point of the tournament was to meet Lyanna.  Her having magic jousting powers makes it too over dramatic to me.

[Makk]

I think the fact that Ned does not think badly of Rhaegar is a pretty strong hint that he wasn't raping Lyana. There may well be more to the situation than we are aware of but I'm pretty sure Lyana was, at least eventually, OK with being there.

[John Doe]

On 23.8.2016 at 7:01 AM, aikojai said:

Polygamy is not illegal not for Targaryens anyway . "Like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men " . Marriage is necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled . It's three heads of the DRAGON . A DRAGON is not a bastard . A Snow is not a Stark .

Anyway I believe they were in love and married and the prophecy was just a bonus for Rhaegar .

The Targaryens aren't above the law. Luckily most of those who thought they were had to face the consequences. 

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

2 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

 

Can someone explain to me why Blue Winter Roses were the crown for the Maid of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal?  It's a little on the nose for them to be present to crown Lyanna.  I've never heard about there being unique flowers for every realm, so I assumed there was only one crown.  Taking that into account, he obviously planned on crowning Lyanna before the tourney was held.  Would he plan on winning the tourney then crowning his wife from Dorne with BWR?  I think not; the point of the tournament was to meet Lyanna.  Her having magic jousting powers makes it too over dramatic to me.

 

We don't know if the flower of choice for the crown is chosen beforehand or if the winner decides.  Given that the blue winter rose seems to be highly valued by Lyanna and rare, either possibility could be true.

[Edd fetch me the boo box]

On August 23, 2016 at 1:01 AM, aikojai said:

Polygamy is not illegal not for Targaryens anyway . "Like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men " . Marriage is necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled . It's three heads of the DRAGON . A DRAGON is not a bastard . A Snow is not a Stark .

Anyway I believe they were in love and married and the prophecy was just a bonus for Rhaegar .

So the Great Bastards weren't considered Dragons? Because I specifically remember Daemon Blackfyre being called the Black Dragon. And Bloodraven's sigil was a white dragon.

[NorthernXY]

Polygamy was outlawed de facto when Jahearys conciliated with the faith and promised the Targaryens would forever protect the 7 if the Faith put down their arms.

Aegon I was overlooked for the sake of peace.  Meakor was polygamous, but it wasn't accepted by the Faith.  Northerners apparently hate incest and polygamy even more.

[Ygrain]

On 24. 8. 2016 at 9:43 PM, thewolfofStarfall said:

The prophecy is based on MAGIC, more specifically BLOOD magic, not on socially constructed laws such as marriage, bastards, or names. If an individual has a Stark parent or ancestor then that person has Stark blood, regardless of their society's law or custom. So, you're  saying if someone's parents weren't married when they were conceived, that implies that the laws of heredity no longer apply, and that individual doesn't have their parents genes? That makes absolutely no sense. Even Ned tells Jon that he may not have his name, but he has his blood which makes him a Stark.

This is the reasoning of a 21st century person, not of one brought up in the society which looks down on bastards. For a Westerosi person, a Stark bastard is not a wolf, a Targ bastard is not a dragon. Dragon had three heads, even though the three founding siblings had a bastad brother.  

On 24. 8. 2016 at 11:50 PM, thewolfofStarfall said:

Explain how Maegor the Cruel was exiled for taking a second wife,

Maegor married without the king's permission, in a politically volatile situation which his marriage further undermined. 

Also, note that he was exiled but his marriage stood.

On 24. 8. 2016 at 11:50 PM, thewolfofStarfall said:

why Jaehearys I had to make an agreement with the Faith Militant after the uprisings,  

After which the Faith turned a blind eye to the abominable Targaryen incest practices. That should tell you who had the upper hand in the "agreement".

On 24. 8. 2016 at 11:50 PM, thewolfofStarfall said:

or how the 300 year old dynasty that answered  to "neither gods nor men", were overthrown in just over a year. That phrase shows how some members (probably most reallly) of house Targaryen once viewed themselves. Tey were obviously wrong. No one is above gods and men, and even dragons can be killed.

And how does this affect the way the Targs were thinking about themselves, or what they could get away with, before their fall?

14 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Polygamy was outlawed de facto when Jahearys conciliated with the faith and promised the Targaryens would forever protect the 7 if the Faith put down their arms.

A quote, please. The custom had been rare and unusual even in Aegon's days, so it not taking place again doesn't mean it was outlawed.

14 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Aegon I was overlooked for the sake of peace.  Meakor was polygamous, but it wasn't accepted by the Faith.

And the Faith basically lost to Jaehaerys...

14 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

 Northerners apparently hate incest and polygamy even more.

Unsupported. We know that both the Southerners and the Northerners abhorr incest - a sin int he eyes of gods old and new. Yet, we have no such quote concerning polygamy. What's more, we have polygamy among the Wildlings (Craster and Ygon Oldfather), yet no-one makes such a comment.