Do you believe Game of Thrones is the best TV show ever?

[Dragon in the North]

11 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

I know people who noticed in S6 that Arya's story in Braavos made no sense, that Sansa's actions were more than questionable all year, that Tyrion's story was moronic, that the Riverlands sequence was utterly pointless, that Lancel following that kid was ludicrous, that Dorne was and is idiotic; and they simply don't care. Yet this is bad storytelling. And that's not even going into deeper questions of storytelling choices, such as Brienne somehow finding Sansa near the start and swearing her sword to her rendered the choice she made in going to kill Stannis at the end of last season completely meaningless. Letting her have it both ways was bad storytelling. She was presented with a choice and she chose badly and so from a narrative and character perspective she should have lost out on Sansa because of it. And there are many more such examples.

And I know people who have had no problem with any of these. Some of them even consider season 6 Arya's best year and loved the ending to her arc. 

 

14 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

But as I said, the majority just don't care about this stuff. They'll lap up what's put in front of them regardless. And that's fine, they're entitled to do so. Meanwhile, I'll be watching it in the same way as everything I watch: with a critical eye.

They don't care, because they don't have a problem with the same things that you do. That doesn't mean "they'll lap up what's put in front of them." It simply means that they like something that you don't.

 

16 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

As an aside, I would also like to point out that The Wire never won any Emmys and Deadwood got cancelled after its third season. These are both vastly superior works.

In your opinion.

[Dragon in the North]

5 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

I have, you just choose to ignore logic and live in denial.

What have you done besides throwing out a list of your own making and expecting me to accept it? 

[Darkstream]

14 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

What have you done besides throwing out a list of your own making and expecting me to accept it? 

Do you think that those are my standards? I didn't just make those up on the spot. Why do you think that English is a compulsory course in high school? Why do you think there are writing and literature coarses in post secondary institutions? What do you think they teach in those courses? They teach the academically accepted standards and fundamentals of proper writing.

[Dolorous Gabe]

2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

And I know people who have had no problem with any of these. Some of them even consider season 6 Arya's best year and loved the ending to her arc. 

They don't care, because they don't have a problem with the same things that you do. That doesn't mean "they'll lap up what's put in front of them." It simply means that they like something that you don't.

In your opinion.

No. These are severe storytelling problems being pointed out, examples of bad writing aplenty and narrative flaws. That's incontrovertible according to universally accepted modes of film criticism.

I support anyone's right to ignore such things but you cannot deny that they are there.

Also, you can separate objectivity and subjectivity. For example, I loved Six Feet Under more than I loved The Sopranos, yet I accept that The Sopranos was the superior work, even if I never had that same attachment to it that I had with Six Feet Under.

[Dragon in the North]

8 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Do you think that those are my standards? I didn't just make those up on the spot. Why do you think that English is a compulsory course in high school? Why do you think there are writing and literature coarses in post secondary institutions? What do you think they teach in those courses? They teach the academically accepted standards and fundamentals of proper writing.

I've written short stories in college. The structure of a story is important, but it's not the only thing being graded by my teacher. If our story followed a logical path and had no plot holes but failed to be compelling and bored my professor to tears, he would not have given us a good grade. If the characters were consistent, but were also one dimensional and uninteresting, our teacher would have taken off points. Writing a logical story with consistent characters is easy. Writing a compelling story with complex character that grips your readers' attention is hard.

[Dragon in the North]

13 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

No. These are severe storytelling problems being pointed out, examples of bad writing aplenty and narrative flaws. That's incontrovertible according to universally accepted modes of film criticism.

If this were true, then GOT wouldn't be critically acclaimed. Unless you're trying to tell me that professional critics don't abide by the universally accepted mode of film criticism.

[Future Null Infinity]

13 hours ago, Darkstream said:

This is the most overused strawman argument out there. Complete rubbish.

Good friend, I said "some" not "all" and I've seen it in this very board, some people saying that Sansa in Winterfell, the burning of Shireen and the death of Stannis are plot holes

13 hours ago, Darkstream said:

That's funny, I remember show defenders making up hundreds of theories to explain why the Arya scene wasn't a plot hole, and none of the theories turned out to be right. It was what it looked like, and all of the sudden, everyone making up reasons why it wasn't a plot hole, quickly went from explaining it, to denying it.

No, they weren't defending the show, it was some hardcore Arya's fans who think that Arya is Batman/Superman reincarnated and didn't accept that Arya is a human character in the story, and when all their theories was false they said it's a plot hole and it's the worst episode of the season

[JonSnow4President]

2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

I've written short stories in college. The structure of a story is important, but it's not the only thing being graded by my teacher. If our story followed a logical path and had no plot holes but failed to be compelling and bored my professor to tears, he would not have given us a good grade. If the characters were consistent, but were also one dimensional and uninteresting, our teacher would have taken off points. Writing a logical story with consistent characters is easy. Writing a compelling story with complex character that grips your readers' attention is hard.

Then how the hell do they mess up so badly on the easy stuff?  

Logical story and consistent characters are foundational.  Stories that are compelling and well written need to have this, but their existence alone does not mean something is a well written story (but their absence does preclude it).  

The problem we keep pointing to is that the foundation for Game of Thrones is so awful, the story is not compelling because nothing means anything, and can't without those foundational pieces.  Right now, it's just a bunch of random 2x4's nailed together in the rough shape of a house, but it sure as hell ain't fit for habitation.  Those 2x4's on their own may be some damn fine scenes (if I had never seen Game of Thrones, I would have thought the Jaime-Edmure scene was f***ing amazing.  It's tying into the larger whole are my only issues with it for example), but the lack of a proper connection prevents the house from taking shape.

[JonSnow4President]

1 minute ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Good friend, I said "some" not "all" and I've seen it in this very board, some people saying that Sansa in Winterfell, the burning of Shireen and the death of Stannis are plot holes

No, they weren't defending the show, it was some hardcore Arya's fans who think that Arya is Batman/Superman reincarnated and didn't accept that Arya is a human character in the story, and when all their theories was false they said it's a plot hole and it's the worst episode of the season

That's because the way they got Sansa to Winterfell is so illogical, it is a plot hole. Had they wanted her there, they can easily come up with a reason that fits (have Ramsey kidnap her while she tries to rally the Northern Lords, possibly with Littlefinger's betrayal of her to the Boltons without her knowledge if you can come up with a compelling reason).  Shireen's burning is so laughable in its effect (she's burned within a days march of Winterfell, in snow lighter than what I have seen in Texas) that it's preposterous, although not really a plothole.  Stannis's death isn't a plot hole, but it stems from laughably presposterous events (Shireen's burning, an entire army leaving unawares, Ramsey's 20 good men), and feels incredibly rushed from him being the dominant power in the North only a few episodes before if we are to take the Bolton's private war council at face value (which we should, since they have no reason to lie to us).  

[Future Null Infinity]

16 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

<snip>

I understand you and I'm not defending the show, my point is when you watch the show without reading the books and without hardcore fanboyism from some show viewers you will not see any plot hole, the story flows perfectly (but some dialogues are laughable ), the show is based on the books and it's not the books, GRRM already said that and the logic of D&D is different of the logic of GRRM, they are different stories

[Meera of Tarth]

24 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

That's because the way they got Sansa to Winterfell is so illogical, it is a plot hole. Had they wanted her there, they can easily come up with a reason that fits (have Ramsey kidnap her while she tries to rally the Northern Lords, possibly with Littlefinger's betrayal of her to the Boltons without her knowledge if you can come up with a compelling reason).  Shireen's burning is so laughable in its effect (she's burned within a days march of Winterfell, in snow lighter than what I have seen in Texas) that it's preposterous, although not really a plothole.  Stannis's death isn't a plot hole, but it stems from laughably presposterous events (Shireen's burning, an entire army leaving unawares, Ramsey's 20 good men), and feels incredibly rushed from him being the dominant power in the North only a few episodes before if we are to take the Bolton's private war council at face value (which we should, since they have no reason to lie to us).  

I think the show has more bad writing that plotholes, but some of the bad writing is easily recognisable but difficulty accepted, and I don't know why. One could still like the show but recognise that, for instance, the way they stab people is not consistent in this universe:

-Jon Snow: ok, correct

-Arya--> no consequences? vs Areo Hotah

Some other things that could be considered bad writing are the abusive use of kinslaying, although that is not a plothole.

Other very bad writing is the poor quality of the jokes, compared to previous seasons.

They also abuse of shocking moments. But I'm ok with that, as long as it makes sense. For instance, Brienne's journey was a bit of a plothole in S5, because she was supposed to help Sansa but didn't do anything (like goingm, hiding, to WF) but, instead, waits for a candle all the season. However, she ha sno problem in infiltrating in STannis' Battle to kill him  (where it is supposed to be a LOT of snow). This season, Brienne is better written compared to the previous one.

And these things don't have anything to do with being a reader at all. I agree that others could be only detected by readers but these ones?? Come on.

[Dragon in the North]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think the show has more bad writing that plotholes, but some of the bad writing is easily recognisable but difficulty accepted, and I don't know why. One could still like the show but recognise that, for instance, the way they stab people is not consistent in this universe:

-Jon Snow: ok, correct

-Arya--> no consequences? vs Areo Hotah

Arya and Areo Hotah were stabbed in two different places, Arya in the side, Hotah in the spine.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Dragon in the North said:

Arya and Areo Hotah were stabbed in two different places, Arya in the side, Hotah in the spine.

I'm am referring that Arya's consequence of being stabbed (and twisted with the knife) was not only being alive, but running like Usain Bolt and jumping like if she was in the Olympics, whereas Areo falls down. Can't you agree on that?