The Wolves Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 2 hours ago, John Doe said: When Eddard Stark was sentenced to death, he drafted thousands of innocent smallfolk from his northern holdings to save his own skin. What are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 9 hours ago, The Wolves said: What are you talking about? Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 29 minutes ago, John Doe said: Robert's Rebellion. While I generally agree with you I don't agree mostly because the way you said it, it seems to imply that Ned had to be blamed for what Aerys did. I think that when Aerys attacked it wasn't just Ned's head, he most likely wouldn't had stopped at Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 6 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: While I generally agree with you I don't agree mostly because the way you said it, it seems to imply that Ned had to be blamed for what Aerys did. I think that when Aerys attacked it wasn't just Ned's head, he most likely wouldn't had stopped at Ned. True, I'm not saying he's a bad person morally because of it, it's just the circumstances. But the idea that Tywin is the one who lets others do his dirty work while the other nobles who start wars for their own personal safety or even honor or glory get a pass is weird in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 15 minutes ago, John Doe said: True, I'm not saying he's a bad person morally because of it, it's just the circumstances. But the idea that Tywin is the one who lets others do his dirty work while the other nobles who start wars for their own personal safety or even honor or glory get a pass is weird in my opinion. We agree then. I think that is silly for someone to believe that only Tywin was the one who did something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 On 4.11.2016 at 3:15 PM, urielisko said: Of course you don't. A "lion of the West" missing the difference between a successful siege and entering a city through the gates open to you by the city's people does not exactly surprise me. The populations of the said cities do seem rather picky then: majority of King's Landing population seems to like the Lannisters very little, while majority of Meereen's population calls Dany "mother". I wonder why could that possibly be. Oh wait! The gates of both cities have been open! The gates of King's Landing by its inhabitants and the gates of Meereen by the special forces of Dany's army. There clearly is, like, no difference at all. Right? Oh wait! The people of Mereen started a guerilla warfare to kill Dany's soldiers, while Yunkai is actively trying to kill her too and Astapor usurped her officials when she left the city. Seems like TywinLannister is much more popular judging by the lack of rebellions once he was in King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 1 hour ago, John Doe said: Oh wait! The people of Mereen started a guerilla warfare to kill Dany's soldiers, while Yunkai is actively trying to kill her too and Astapor usurped her officials when she left the city. Seems like TywinLannister is much more popular judging by the lack of rebellions once he was in King's Landing. This has never happened. Obviously you have misread or the text doesn’t say what you think that it says. Astapor usurped her officials I would say overthrown rather than usurp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 On October 11, 2016 at 2:09 AM, devilish said: He invaded an entire continent because he could, which is fair enough and in line to what most people in Westeros would do, if given the opportunity.Surely you can't expect Aegon to sit out on that pathetic rock of his when he had a trump card that would make him win most of his wars, don't you? The Durrandon's deal wasn't an act of provocation but more an act of Aegon being naive (similar to the one regarding the KG and building walls around KL)..He felt that his sister wives wouldn't like sharing their bed with someone from a different gene pool and he'd rather lose an army then facing them an argument. Tywin wouldn't give a feck of what his relatives would say. If Tywin was in Aegon's shoes he would have gone full Rains of Castamere against the Lannister king but he didn't. Instead all Aegon wanted was for them to bend the knee, no hostages, no unnecessary shows of cruelty as show of power, nothing. Tywin would have burnt the Eyrie down. How dare they refuse to bend the knee to him? Instead Aegon took young Ronnel on a dragon's ride and Ronnel bent the knee. Again, no hostages, no unneccessary shows of cruelty as show of power nothing. Aegon rewarded those who bent the knee and gave people fair deals. The Tullys and the Tyrells took over the Reach and the Riverlands but every bannerman knew that they had Aegon's back. Tywin pretty left the Boltons to fend on their own. He couldn't even spare Sansa to marry Roose as he wanted Tyrion to marry her and in the future take the North under Roose's nose. FFS at one point the man had dragons and 6 regions who pledged loyalty to him, yet he pitched his tent on the weakest region (the Crownlands) not to piss his bannermen off. I am not saying that Tywin is bad, Aegon is good. Aegon could rely on dragons (and sometimes he overdid it). Tywin didn't had this luxury. All I am saying is that they are different. Without dragons at play, Tywin (actually Gregor, unlike Aegon, Tywin rarely leads from the front) would eat Aegon for breakfast It was Visenya who flew around the bloody gate and up to the Eyrie's open courtyard. Also her plan to take the little lord on a "ride" Also Ronnel's mom "bent the knee" by giving Visenya his falcon? Crown (I know it was a crown) So it's definitely not a comparable situation as Aegon (probably) had no clue of Visenya's real plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: It was Visenya who flew around the bloody gate and up to the Eyrie's open courtyard. Also her plan to take the little lord on a "ride" Also Ronnel's mom "bent the knee" by giving Visenya his falcon? Crown (I know it was a crown) So it's definitely not a comparable situation as Aegon (probably) had no clue of Visenya's real plan. Also what Visenya did was to threaten Sharra, she didn't just gave Ronnel the chance to fly because she had a kind heart. What Visenya did was exactly what Tywin would had done, he would had threaten Sharra to bend the knee and then he would had been kind to Ronnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 12 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Also what Visenya did was to threaten Sharra, she didn't just gave Ronnel the chance to fly because she had a kind heart. What Visenya did was exactly what Tywin would had done, he would had threaten Sharra to bend the knee and then he would had been kind to Ronnel. I agree with you it was to terrify Ronnel's mom. But as to the Visenya/Tywin comparison idk about that. Thank you for giving me the name Sharra though I didn't have my world book at the time and couldn't remember either Ronnel or Sharra's names at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 11 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: I agree with you it was to terrify Ronnel's mom. But as to the Visenya/Tywin comparison idk about that. Thank you for giving me the name Sharra though I didn't have my world book at the time and couldn't remember either Ronnel or Sharra's names at all. Anytime What I meant is that Tywin wouldn’t have just killed people because they opposed him. He would had threatened them and then if they didn’t bend the knee he would had destroyed them. An example about it is what Tywin did to Lord Farman when he tried to rebel, Tywin just sent a singer who played “The rains of Castamere”. After that Lord Farman bend the knee and he most likely sent his daughter Jeyne at Casterly Rock where she became one of Cersei’s companions. It would seem that Tywin was attacking someone when his threats were not enough or when he needed to do it, let’s not forget how many times the Reynes and the Tarbecks had the chance to bend the knee and they had refused to do it. On 6/11/2016 at 4:54 PM, John Doe said: He is. Which is rich coming from someone trying to justify Dany's genocide. It's very simple why people chose to close their eyes to this genocide. If someone started to kill the Valyrians and their descendants for practicing incest everyone would had said that this was genocide. Obviously a life matters only when someone is likable. Who cares when an unlikable culture is exterminated and they children died simply because they are born in this culture? Heck even Dany's excuse for committing genocide was that they were slavers she should had committed suicide for being a slaver herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 [mod] Are we all done calling each other trolls now? If you genuinely think someone is trolling, please report it or ignore it. Don't post to say you're doing either, and don't try to dismiss or shut people up by throwing the word around. Because every post I see in this thread that contains that word will be deleted in its entirety. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 10 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Anytime What I meant is that Tywin wouldn’t have just killed people because they opposed him. He would had threatened them and then if they didn’t bend the knee he would had destroyed them. An example about it is what Tywin did to Lord Farman when he tried to rebel, Tywin just sent a singer who played “The rains of Castamere”. After that Lord Farman bend the knee and he most likely sent his daughter Jeyne at Casterly Rock where she became one of Cersei’s companions. It would seem that Tywin was attacking someone when his threats were not enough or when he needed to do it, let’s not forget how many times the Reynes and the Tarbecks had the chance to bend the knee and they had refused to do it Heck even Dany's excuse for committing genocide was that they were slavers she should had committed suicide for being a slaver herself. To the best of my knowledge other than the sack of KL (which you could argue Aerys brought upon himself) I agree Tywin didn't rape and pillage unless provoked and by provoked I mean all the duties that come with being Tywin. (Hand, Lord, LP, Warden) He simply does not make idle threats (not a bad thing) Visenya I believe to be another animal. She definitely poisoned her nephew. Everything she touched burned to the ground. Her sword is awesome and says quite a lot about her but she thought of the KG. IDK what to say about her except I'd rather treat with Tywin and I would be scared shitless to treat with Tywin. About Dany do you mean irri and jhoqui and her other "hand maids" or her fruit-bringers-all-the-way-to-the-top-of-that-freaking-pyramid-staff, or the fact she allowed slaves to become.... Poor people who will never work off their debt (slaves) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 12 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: About Dany do you mean irri and jhoqui and her other "hand maids" or her fruit-bringers-all-the-way-to-the-top-of-that-freaking-pyramid-staff, or the fact she allowed slaves to become.... Poor people who will never work off their debt (slaves) Neither. I mean Quote “In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands,” Missandei told her. “We’ll do the same,” Dany decided. Wars were won with gold as much as swords. “A tenth part. In gold or silver coin, or ivory. Meereen has no need of saffron, cloves, or zorse hides.” So, she basically destroyed their life to the point that they voluntarily sold themselves to slavery and then she takes their money. Also something that should be noted is the fact that she took or will take money from them every time they "change hands". She basically makes profit from slave trading becoming a slaver. 12 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: To the best of my knowledge other than the sack of KL (which you could argue Aerys brought upon himself) I agree Tywin didn't rape and pillage unless provoked and by provoked I mean all the duties that come with being Tywin. (Hand, Lord, LP, Warden) He simply does not make idle threats (not a bad thing) What I meant was that he didn't killed people just because they didn't bend the knee or because they provoke him. Aegon on the other hand created a bloodbath in Westeros because he wanted to be the King with no provocation. 12 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: Visenya I believe to be another animal. She definitely poisoned her nephew. Everything she touched burned to the ground. Her sword is awesome and says quite a lot about her but she thought of the KG. IDK what to say about her except I'd rather treat with Tywin and I would be scared shitless to treat with Tywin. I agree. What I meant was that Visenya didn't gave Ronnel the chance to fly because she was kind, she was there to kill everyone if Sharra hadn't give up their crowns. So saying that what the Targs did was kind and that Tywin would had killed them all is rather silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One-eyed Misbehavin Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 11 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Neither. I mean So, she basically destroyed their life to the point that they voluntarily sold themselves to slavery and then she takes their money. Also something that should be noted is the fact that she took or will take money from them every time they "change hands". She basically makes profit from slave trading becoming a slaver. What I meant was that he didn't killed people just because they didn't bend the knee or because they provoke him. Aegon on the other hand created a bloodbath in Westeros because he wanted to be the King with no provocation. I agree. What I meant was that Visenya didn't gave Ronnel the chance to fly because she was kind, she was there to kill everyone if Sharra hadn't give up their crowns. So saying that what the Targs did was kind and that Tywin would had killed them all is rather silly. I remember reading that and literally just shaking my ahead. Agreed on all counts And I knew what you meant regarding the Eyrie strategy. I know it was meant to cause any mother to go insane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 19 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: First thing, thank you for your logical and well planned out response. It is good to know that even if I disagree with someone, I can see they have the ability to form logical arguments and not spout things that make no sense without the basic ability to use dictionary definitions correctly (See Jon's Queens Consort). Okay, now to respond to your words, because I do disagree with them, even if they are better worded and...logical. You are right, Tywin does not have a PoV, but there are plenty of characters who judge what he does directly, and Dany has Barristan judging her directly. Nobody suggest that Tywin has any remorse. Barristan seems to think Dany does, and he has a lot of respect of her judgement, clearly. I know one person is not the greatest judge, but it is more evidence than you are claiming. Sacked cities time. I'm sorry, but I can't get on your side at all here. Tywin was allowed into a city as a friend. Dany destroyed a city to end slavery. Daenerys attacked a city, made a war, and freed an enslaved majority. Tywin killed a bunch of people who were not fighting back. Granted, perhaps the city guard fought back, but....no reason to rape and loot at all. Tywin taking King's Landing resulted in nothing. Eddard Stark probably would have taken King's Landing in a less violent and more civilized way. In fact, since Jamie still may have killed Aerys, he might have just walked in with no needing to die at all. Tywin's rape of King's Landing was literally only to appear to be on the winning side when he hadn't actually done anything in the war at all while Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, and Robert Baratheon were actually setting up the new Kingdom. You are right that he didn't kill those people, however, I hate to say it, but do you know what "In his path" means. None of those examples are people in his path anymore. They have chosen to side with him, so he spared them. Robb Stark was in his path. So he broke Westorosi traditional values and him murdered while raping and murdering his small folk. Sorry, except on your first point about the PoV, I just disagree vehemently. Yes, yes, and yes. All exactly what I have been trying to say. He is a monster. Thank you for your kind words. And just like you, I almost entirely disagree with my the opposing part in this discussion, and maybe we should leave at that we agree to disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Let's also not forget that Tywin always gets criticized for the way in which he defeated the Tarbecks while Aegon burning the whole Hoare family to ashes gets just glossed over as a great victory on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 50 minutes ago, John Doe said: Let's also not forget that Tywin always gets criticized for the way in which he defeated the Tarbecks while Aegon burning the whole Hoare family to ashes gets just glossed over as a great victory on his part. How many servants, children and innocent women of the Hoare family were burned to death by Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 20 minutes ago, The Wolves said: How many servants, children and innocent women of the Hoare family were burned to death by Aegon. No one seems to have cared to count, or the whole place was so blasted it was impossible to count them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: No one seems to have cared to count, or the whole place was so blasted it was impossible to count them. Okay, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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