Let's Figure Out The Mormonts

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, RumHam said:

Aw man no apologizes necessary, at worst you got my hopes up that there was some new quote to over analyze. 

FYI Elio Garcia is the owner of this website. He and his wife Linda were also the co-authors of The World of Ice and Fire.

Yes, I'm aware who Elio Garcia is, I just thought it was timely to find him posting under his own name on another site only a year ago. It didn't make me feel any better seeing so many others operating under the same assumption.   Where the heck did we get that idea anyway?

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Snowmelter said:

Curled Finger:  I think the idea of swords placed in different regions of Westeros is intriguing.  In the Mormont's case, Alys tells Asha Greyjoy that the women of Bear Island are the way they are because of the constant depredations of the Ironborn.  I wonder if the VS sword was bestowed on them for that reason.  After all, the Ironborn once controlled all the land where the sea could be heard (at least on the west coast of the continent).  Harran the Black did not build that f*ucking monstrosity because he feared any power of the  former  seven kingdoms, never mind how far from the sea it is.  I lost my copy of TWoIAF but didn't house Targaryen settle there quite a bit before the Doom...like a century or so?  Plenty of time to hand out VS swords to secretly loyal lords. 

You may be the 1st person ever to give any credence to the placement of the swords.  Thanks for not calling me lame outright.   Your reason for Mormonts obtaining a sword are as potential as any other.  That's part of why it's just flat out fascinating that the Iron Born have 2 swords now, guarding or representing the West now, in my mind at least.  And yes, Dragonstone was settled about--let me check our unpublishable timeline for this--yes, Dragonstone was settled in the century prior to the Doom.  @estermonty python has some very clear dates for these events and I'm dying to pick his brain for specifics so I can straighten out any errors on the timeline.   

Like I said, I could be way off on this placement of the swords.   As it stands now based on what we know FOR SURE, there is 1 sword in the north, 3 in the South, 1 in the middle, 1 in the east, 1 in the Riverlands and 1 in the Stormlands.  Both swords have left the west.   It should be noted there were no swords in the Stormlands or Riverlands before.  I expect to see Blackfyre and Vigilance (if the Hightowers still have it) early in TWOW making our magic items a little easier to track.   

I misread the end of your post originally to mean that someone in Westeros may have distributed the original VS swords.   Of course that's not what you wrote, but such are my reading skills at 5 AM.   That's not something that ever occurred to me before, but it's got my wheels spinning.    

[Raisin' Bran]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The last report of them is found in a Volantene chronicle called The Glory of Volantis. There it stated that a "golden fleet" bearing the "Lion King" had stayed there for supplies, and that the triarchs lavished him with gifts. The chronicle claims that he swore that half of all he found would be given to the triarchs in return for their generosity—and a promise to send their fleet to his aid when he requested it. After that, he sailed away. The year after, the chronicle claims that the Triarch Marqelo Tagaros dispatched a squadron of ships toward Valyria to see if any sign of the golden fleet could be found, but they returned empty handed.  AWOIAF The Westerlands.

Thank you for that. I knew I had read it before, but did not have access to it at the time, and did not really want to spend the time looking into it when I did have access.

[estermonty python]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It’s all but certain that Blackfyre and Dark Sister were on Dragonstone prior to the Doom, but we don’t actually see them for another 200 years.   Is this significant?  It should be noted that the Targs are among the very few who managed to flee Valyria before the Doom but this was due to having their very own in-house prophet, Daenys the Dreamer.   Did Daenys dream more than we are told, perhaps of the 2^nd coming of a Long Night?  Were the Valeryans aware of The Others and sent the magic swords to aid in the war to come?   Or were the original swords a sort of ice breaker for introducing superior Valyrian weaponry and exposing Westerosi culture to Valyrians? 

 

 Heck yes, something way hinky is going on with the Doom.   Still, I think it all began with the cataclysm at Hardhome—I think that’s what jiggled things loose enough to cause everything else.   I settled on the Mormonts because I hoped someone caught something I didn’t—but I could have just as easily settled on the Tarlys, famed archers, not swordsmen.  These placements are so strange as related to the named VS swords.   It’s clear that you see the chain of events.  Something was going on.   I wondered if the swords making it to Westeros wasn’t some sort of reaction.   If you will indulge me for a moment I’ll try to explain.   Whatever caused Hardhome, magic, geothermal buildup or dumb luck was the big Planetos moving event in modern memory.   Hardhome happens then we hear of 4 VS swords finding their way to Westeros in the next century.   They were The Lannister’s Brightroar, Royce’s Lamentation, Mormont’s Longclaw and of course Tarly’s Heartsbane.  1 magic sword for the south, east, west and finally north.  Everyone tells me I’m nuts about the placement of these original swords, but I think it may be important.   At their height of appearance, (The Dance of Dragons)  there were 2 in the North, 1 in the West, 2 in the East, 2, possibly 3 in the South and 2 in the middle.   That’s the magic 12 which I believe was always the intended number of swords.   It is notable that near the time of the DOD Nightfall was added to the Westerosi armory as Lamentation was (I believe) destroyed.  Maintaining that magical 12 swords for whatever purpose a dozen magic swords would be needed for. 

This is great stuff.  I got to the magic 12 on my own but great to see it independently confirmed.  I think you are coming up with 13 while I only count 12 though.  Just to review, as of the Doom:

Ice - House Stark (Kings in the North)

Longclaw - House Mormont (old but poor, loyal to the Starks)

Brightroar - House Lannister (Kings of the Rock)

Red Rain - House Reyne (#2 in the West)

Lamentation - House Royce (most powerful of the First Men houses in the Vale, #2 in the Vale)

Lady Forlorn - House Corbray (old but poor, loyal to the Arryns)

Vigilance - House Hightower (#2 in the Reach, most powerful of the First Men houses in the Reach)

Heartsbane - House Tarly (Warriors of the Reach, most powerful of the Marcher Lords)

Orphan-Maker - House Roxton (Andal house of the Reach, otherwise ???????)

Nightfall - House Harlaw (#2 on the Iron Islands)

Blackfyre - House Targaryen (Ruler of the Targs)

Dark Sister - House Targaryen (#2 Targ)

 

I don't see a 13th sword other than Truth, wielded by the Rogares in Lys.  

 

It makes perfect sense to me that these 12 swords were forged and sent over to arm the 12 companions of the Last Hero, who himself would wield the Sword of the Morning.  That's not to say that we're going to get 12 ppl wielding 12 swords in the actual story, necessarily, but it seems highly doubtful that this would be a coincidence!

Looking at the original owners, there's clearly a preference for #2 houses, with the exception of the Starks and Lannisters (and Targs, obviously, but that's a little different).  I don't know what to make of that, other than to point out that the Starks and Lannisters are also obviously the most important #1 houses in our story as well (along with the Targs, but again, that's different).  Not to put too fine of a point on it, but the Hightowers, Royces, and Harlaws are substantially more badass and well-rounded than their liege lords, and the Hightowers and Royces in particular are older, more powerful, and more mysterious than basically any house out there.  To me House Mormont looks on paper a lot like House Corbray - extremely old, but regarded as extremely poor.  The sword and family that stand out to me as odd is Orphan Maker and House Roxton, as we've basically never heard the house mentioned in the series (although I believe Jon Roxton makes an appearance in one of the Dunk and Egg novellas).

I'm not sure what to make of all this, other than that I note the connection between 12 named swords in Westeros and the 12 companions of the Last Hero, and that the swords appear to be fairly evenly distributed throughout the continent, from Bear Island to the Dornish Marches, with the Stormlands and Riverlands being the exception.

 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

16 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

This is great stuff.  I got to the magic 12 on my own but great to see it independently confirmed.  I think you are coming up with 13 while I only count 12 though.  Just to review, as of the Doom:

Ice - House Stark (Kings in the North)

Longclaw - House Mormont (old but poor, loyal to the Starks)

Brightroar - House Lannister (Kings of the Rock)

Red Rain - House Reyne (#2 in the West)

Lamentation - House Royce (most powerful of the First Men houses in the Vale, #2 in the Vale)

Lady Forlorn - House Corbray (old but poor, loyal to the Arryns)

Vigilance - House Hightower (#2 in the Reach, most powerful of the First Men houses in the Reach)

Heartsbane - House Tarly (Warriors of the Reach, most powerful of the Marcher Lords)

Orphan-Maker - House Roxton (Andal house of the Reach, otherwise ???????)

Nightfall - House Harlaw (#2 on the Iron Islands)

Blackfyre - House Targaryen (Ruler of the Targs)

Dark Sister - House Targaryen (#2 Targ)

 

I don't see a 13th sword other than Truth, wielded by the Rogares in Lys.  

 

It makes perfect sense to me that these 12 swords were forged and sent over to arm the 12 companions of the Last Hero, who himself would wield the Sword of the Morning.  That's not to say that we're going to get 12 ppl wielding 12 swords in the actual story, necessarily, but it seems highly doubtful that this would be a coincidence!

Looking at the original owners, there's clearly a preference for #2 houses, with the exception of the Starks and Lannisters (and Targs, obviously, but that's a little different).  I don't know what to make of that, other than to point out that the Starks and Lannisters are also obviously the most important #1 houses in our story as well (along with the Targs, but again, that's different).  Not to put too fine of a point on it, but the Hightowers, Royces, and Harlaws are substantially more badass and well-rounded than their liege lords, and the Hightowers and Royces in particular are older, more powerful, and more mysterious than basically any house out there.  To me House Mormont looks on paper a lot like House Corbray - extremely old, but regarded as extremely poor.  The sword and family that stand out to me as odd is Orphan Maker and House Roxton, as we've basically never heard the house mentioned in the series (although I believe Jon Roxton makes an appearance in one of the Dunk and Egg novellas).

I'm not sure what to make of all this, other than that I note the connection between 12 named swords in Westeros and the 12 companions of the Last Hero, and that the swords appear to be fairly evenly distributed throughout the continent, from Bear Island to the Dornish Marches, with the Stormlands and Riverlands being the exception.

 

 

Bold Jon Roxton is in the Dance of Dragons not Dunk and Egg.  A bastard Targ named Hugh the Hammer rode the largest living dragon after Vhagar died, and as such thought he should be king and said he would not continue to fight with the greens unless he was king.  When their army was attacked at Tumbleton by a Valyron bastard who had just come from the Isle of Faces, Jon Roxton turned to Hugh and said something along the lines of "Ser Hugh, I'm so sorry, you did not survive the battle" and killed him when he was surrounded by his own sellswords/hedge knights who then in turn cut down Jon Roxton and presumably took the sword.

[aryagonnakill#2]

On November 16, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Curled Finger said:

@estermonty python, you have touched on an interesting point about the Mormonts acquiring VS before, well before the Starks.  All I've got for that is perhaps Ancestral Ice was still around?  I made a timeline for the appearances and disappearances of the swords, but I have no idea how to post it.   I found during that research that Ice and Lady Forlorn are similar in color and both are stated to have arrived about 400 years ago.   I wonder if they didn't arrive at the same time from the same stock?

Until we get the rest of the history I suppose much of this will remain a mystery, unless we find out the swords were actually gifted to each of the original owners in TWOW or ADOS.   Of course that's far more than we could hope for with GRRM and his damned mysteries on top of mysteries.   I look forward to seeing all the swords come into play in TWOW.  Thanks so much for joining the discussion. 

 

On November 17, 2016 at 9:48 AM, estermonty python said:

Heartsbane is about 500 years old as well, about the same age as Longclaw.  Considering the only "legitimate" valyrian steel swords we know of with a pure chain of title - Longclaw, Ice, Heartsbane, Lady Forlorn, Dark Sister, and Blackfyre - all appeared in Westeros somewhere between 8-80 years before the Doom,  I can't help but wonder if the influx of Valyrian steel, the emigration of the Targaryens, and the Doom happening all within about a decade of one another aren't somehow connected.  I don't count the Valyrian steel in possession of the Ironborn, as it was all stolen so we have no way of knowing when it came to Westeros.

At any rate, I'd love to see that timeline.  I always found it odd that House Corbray maintained possession of Lady Forlorn even after Daemon Blackfyre killed Gwayne Corbray.  I, frankly, always found it strange that 500-odd years of Arryns, Tyrells, and Starks never managed to intermarry enough to get those weapons into the inheritance of the lords paramount of those regions. 

The world book states that the flow of VS into westeros increased greatly with the founding of Dragonstone.  It seems likely to me that Dragonstone was founded shortly before those swords started arriving.

 

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I did come across this quote if it means anything:

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

And even more telling, only one in a hundred wildlings was mounted. The Old Bear will go through them like an axe through porridge. And when that happened, Mance must give chase with his center, to try and blunt the threat. If he should fall in the fight that must follow, the Wall would be safe for another hundred years, Jon judged. And if not . . .
He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.

I know very little about these swords but Dark Sister is described as a long sword and I assume that a bastard sword is longer.  Longclaw is described as having three fullers and Mormont tells Jon he will have to learn two handed techniques which sounds more like a great sword.  Although Jon describes the heft of it as a lighter weight than Ice.  

I did find this entry in wiki interesting:

The term "longsword" is ambiguous, and refers to the "bastard sword" only where the late medieval to Renaissance context is implied. "Longsword" in other contexts has been used to refer to Bronze Age swords, Migration period and Viking swords as well as the early modern dueling sword.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

It would be ironic if Longclaw is Dark Sister described as 'having a thirst for blood' given that Jon's own dark sister Arya describes herself as having long claws:

A Storm of Swords - Arya XI

The Frey riders were struggling through the mud and reeds, but some of them had seen the wayn. She watched as three riders left the main column, pounding through the shallows. Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.

Clegane cut Stranger loose with a single slash of his sword and leapt onto his back. The courser knew what was wanted of him. He pricked up his ears and wheeled toward the charging destriers. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours. Arya had prayed a hundred hundred times for the Hound to die, but now . . . there was a rock in her hand, slimy with mud, and she didn't even remember picking it up. Who do I throw it at?

Mormont's raven is also present when Jon recieves the sword and tells him to "take it".  That's very suggestive.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII
The raven flapped down and landed on the table, strutting toward the sword, head cocked curiously. Jon hesitated. He had no inkling what this meant. "My lord?"
"The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade, now … you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade." Mormont shoved the scabbard across the rough oak planks. "I had the rest made anew. Take it."
"Take it," echoed his raven, preening. "Take it, take it."

A Clash of Kings - Jon III
"Very good. See that my horse is saddled and ready. I mean for us to ride within the hour. Have you eaten? Craster serves plain fare, but filling."
I will not eat Craster's food, he decided suddenly. "I broke my fast with the men, my lord." Jon shooed the raven off Longclaw. The bird hopped back to Mormont's shoulder, where it promptly shat. "You might have done that on Snow instead of saving it for me," the Old Bear grumbled. The raven quorked.

 

 

A bastard sword is known as a hand and a half sword.  You can use it 1 handed or 2, it is larger than a longsword but smaller than a greatsword.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Thank you for that. I knew I had read it before, but did not have access to it at the time, and did not really want to spend the time looking into it when I did have access.

That's the beauty of discussion...someone usually has access!  glad to be of help.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

The world book states that the flow of VS into westeros increased greatly with the founding of Dragonstone.  It seems likely to me that Dragonstone was founded shortly before those swords started arriving.

 

A bastard sword is known as a hand and a half sword.  You can use it 1 handed or 2, it is larger than a longsword but smaller than a greatsword.

I'll take your word for it.  I have no idea.  I thought the thread would be about why Mormont joined the Night's Watch, because I wonder about that also but it also question how Mormont came by their ancestral sword.

I saw the quote about "the great bastard sword" when I was searching for something else.... Bloodraven being one of the great bastards, officially recognized in the line of succession.  That's the only time the sword is referred to as a bastard sword in the books as far as I can tell; but specifically a great bastard sword.  I thought it was suggestive of Bloodraven.  Since he was the last one to possess Dark Sister; I thought it was curious that Jon would refer to it that way.

One of the sticking points seems to be that Dark Sister is described as a long sword which I assume is not a hand a half sword.  But then Jon goes on to describe it as light weight with three fullers and needing to learn a two handed stroke which is more typical of a great sword.  Wikipedia describes the the designation of a long sword and a bastard sword during medieval periods as ambiguous.  So I take that to mean that the terms are interchangeable for that tiime period.

I imagine that if Bloodraven took the sword with him to the Night's Watch giving up all family ties; that it would become the property of his 'new family'; the brotherhood of the Night's Watch and renaming it to Longclaw would seem appropriate.  The sword then something that is passed down to lord commanders or someone worthy of it.

I think that Mormont's raven is Bloodraven keeping an eye on the NW and Jon in particular.  That bird has a lot to say... So it's curious that the bird tell Jon to 'take it'; while preening and eye-balling the sword.  He's later found perched on the sword.

It it is Dark Sister renamed to Longclaw; that's also suggestive of Arya, Jon's own 'dark sister' who describes herself in another passage as having long claws herself.  

But I don't know how you get past Mormont's version of Longclaw as his family's ancestral sword unless he is alluding to his new family; the brotherhood of the Night's Watch.  Others here have studied the question, seem to think it's questionable. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'll take your word for it.  I have no idea.  I thought the thread would be about why Mormont joined the Night's Watch, because I wonder about that also but it also question how Mormont came by their ancestral sword.

I saw the quote about "the great bastard sword" when I was searching for something else.... Bloodraven being one of the great bastards, officially recognized in the line of succession.  That's the only time the sword is referred to as a bastard sword in the books as far as I can tell; but specifically a great bastard sword.  I thought it was suggestive of Bloodraven.  Since he was the last one to possess Dark Sister; I thought it was curious that Jon would refer to it that way.

One of the sticking points seems to be that Dark Sister is described as a long sword which I assume is not a hand a half sword.  But then Jon goes on to describe it as light weight with three fullers and needing to learn a two handed stroke which is more typical of a great sword.  Wikipedia describes the the designation of a long sword and a bastard sword during medieval periods as ambiguous.  So I take that to mean that the terms are interchangeable for that tiime period.

I imagine that if Bloodraven took the sword with him to the Night's Watch giving up all family ties; that it would become the property of his 'new family'; the brotherhood of the Night's Watch and renaming it to Longclaw would seem appropriate.  The sword then something that is passed down to lord commanders or someone worthy of it.

I think that Mormont's raven is Bloodraven keeping an eye on the NW and Jon in particular.  That bird has a lot to say... So it's curious that the bird tell Jon to 'take it'; while preening and eye-balling the sword.  He's later found perched on the sword.

It it is Dark Sister renamed to Longclaw; that's also suggestive of Arya, Jon's own 'dark sister' who describes herself in another passage as having long claws herself.  

But I don't know how you get past Mormont's version of Longclaw as his family's ancestral sword unless he is alluding to his new family; the brotherhood of the Night's Watch.  Others here have studied the question, seem to think it's questionable. 

It's really not questionable, since Jorah separately confirms it and he would not have been able to collude with his father on such a cover up.

Jon describes bastards blades to us when he is given the sword, whatever the definition you got online George gives us his own.

Calling the sword great is simply a description of the sword, it is great because it is made of Valyrian steal.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It's really not questionable, since Jorah separately confirms it and he would not have been able to collude with his father on such a cover up.

Jon describes bastards blades to us when he is given the sword, whatever the definition you got online George gives us his own.

Calling the sword great is simply a description of the sword, it is great because it is made of Valyrian steal.

Yes, you really can't get past that.

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, estermonty python said:

This is great stuff.  I got to the magic 12 on my own but great to see it independently confirmed.  I think you are coming up with 13 while I only count 12 though.  Just to review, as of the Doom:

Ice - House Stark (Kings in the North)

Longclaw - House Mormont (old but poor, loyal to the Starks)

Brightroar - House Lannister (Kings of the Rock)     I think Brightroar is gone forever.   Lost as in never to be seen again.,

Red Rain - House Reyne (#2 in the West)

Lamentation - House Royce (most powerful of the First Men houses in the Vale, #2 in the Vale)   This one is even listed among the dead in AWOIAF--I'm sure it was destroyed in the Dragon Pits. 

Lady Forlorn - House Corbray (old but poor, loyal to the Arryns)

Vigilance - House Hightower (#2 in the Reach, most powerful of the First Men houses in the Reach)

Heartsbane - House Tarly (Warriors of the Reach, most powerful of the Marcher Lords)

Orphan-Maker - House Roxton (Andal house of the Reach, otherwise ???????)

Nightfall - House Harlaw (#2 on the Iron Islands)

Blackfyre - House Targaryen (Ruler of the Targs)

Dark Sister - House Targaryen (#2 Targ)

 

I don't see a 13th sword other than Truth, wielded by the Rogares in Lys.  Take Lamentation, Ice & Brightroar out.   They are gone.   Add Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail and Truth and you have your 12 again.  

 

It makes perfect sense to me that these 12 swords were forged and sent over to arm the 12 companions of the Last Hero, who himself would wield the Sword of the Morning.  That's not to say that we're going to get 12 ppl wielding 12 swords in the actual story, necessarily, but it seems highly doubtful that this would be a coincidence!   Looks more like a set up to me.  

Looking at the original owners, there's clearly a preference for #2 houses, with the exception of the Starks and Lannisters (and Targs, obviously, but that's a little different).  I don't know what to make of that, other than to point out that the Starks and Lannisters are also obviously the most important #1 houses in our story as well (along with the Targs, but again, that's different).  Not to put too fine of a point on it, but the Hightowers, Royces, and Harlaws are substantially more badass and well-rounded than their liege lords, and the Hightowers and Royces in particular are older, more powerful, and more mysterious than basically any house out there.  To me House Mormont looks on paper a lot like House Corbray - extremely old, but regarded as extremely poor.  The sword and family that stand out to me as odd is Orphan Maker and House Roxton, as we've basically never heard the house mentioned in the series (although I believe Jon Roxton makes an appearance in one of the Dunk and Egg novellas).

I'm not sure what to make of all this, other than that I note the connection between 12 named swords in Westeros and the 12 companions of the Last Hero, and that the swords appear to be fairly evenly distributed throughout the continent, from Bear Island to the Dornish Marches, with the Stormlands and Riverlands being the exception.

 

 

Not VS, but absolutely bitchen, we gotta consider Dawn.   I don't know how it fits in (there I opened the door for all the Lightbringer folks to come in and straighten us out) but since you see things much the way I see them, we gotta have 12 + 1 swords.   THL + A dozen companions, right?   So yah, maybe Dawn fits into that group because I sure don't see anywhere else another magic sword fits in.   Dude, I could read what you're laying down for days.   I don't often run across readers who see the math and what it all adds up to.   I've been told more than once to pay attention to the 2nd sons in this story and you gave me the best illumination yet.   For all it's worth my buddy @Seamsmakes a pretty compelling case for Truth in Dorne.   Remember, this sword is listed as a Westerosi sword.  It's somewhere in Westeros, I'm sure about that.   It is the math that my timeline strives to illustrate.   3 original swords are gone.   They aren't coming back.  Truth was added to the mix and Ice was made into 2 swords.   Not 1 bad ass greatsword like Brightroar but 2 smaller blades.   Interesting move by Tywin.   

I'm totally on board with your secondary house placements.   It's interesting to study the dynamics of the houses in each region as they relate to each other in an effort to figure out why the swords landed where they did.  Longclaw was settled in for 100 years before Ice was commissioned.  Lamentation was holding down the Vale for 100 years before Lady Forlorn moved in.  We don't know when Red Rain landed in the Westerlands, but it was the 2nd sword.  The Tarlys are so far removed from the Hightowers they are almost in separate regions yet there is Heartsbane holding down the Reach well before the wealthiest family in the Reach got Vigilance.   It's weird and doesn't add up at all.   Hell the Targs were doing business with The Hightowers before anyone else we know of.   It is weird.     

So was Longclaw the original award because a brave Mormont was either TLH or a companion?  I think so.  It's the only thing that makes sense to me how these people even got VS.  Ditto for Tarly.    If there were lots and lots of requests for VS maybe there was a code to how the Valyrians awarded swords.  Too many people could have afforded VS.   The Tarbecks, Manderlys, Martells, Tyrells, Baratheons, Arryns--there were plenty of rich folks.  How about the Celtigars or Velaryons?  Not even all the Valyrians could score swords, but the Mormonts and Tarlys could?  

I commented inside your reply with my own sword math.   Those swords keep adding up to 12 once the Targs really joined the realm.   There are periods of inequity when only 10 swords or 11 swords are around, but they always end up being replaced.   So I'm absolutely 100% with you on your ideas about our magic swords and who knows?   Maybe our Mormonts are magical, too.   OK maybe they are merely legendary, but they are a whole lot more than what they appear to be. 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

The world book states that the flow of VS into westeros increased greatly with the founding of Dragonstone.  It seems likely to me that Dragonstone was founded shortly before those swords started arriving.

 

A bastard sword is known as a hand and a half sword.  You can use it 1 handed or 2, it is larger than a longsword but smaller than a greatsword.

I love it when you bring the stuff you know in.   From what I gather looking into real life swords, a greatsword is as much as 5 to 6" wide, a bastard sword would be more like 4 - 5" wide and a longsword is more like 3-4" wide.    Dark Sister seems to be slimmer still and I'll even bet that Widow's Wail in the same width neighborhood as Dark Sister.   

Here, let me consult our unpublishable timeline!  1st VS swords appeared in 200 BL, Dragonstone was settled sometime in the following century, so yah, I have to agree with the flow increasing after that.   At the very least we got the remaining 8 swords after Dragonstone was settled.   

[aryagonnakill#2]

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I love it when you bring the stuff you know in.   From what I gather looking into real life swords, a greatsword is as much as 5 to 6" wide, a bastard sword would be more like 4 - 5" wide and a longsword is more like 3-4" wide.    Dark Sister seems to be slimmer still and I'll even bet that Widow's Wail in the same width neighborhood as Dark Sister.   

Here, let me consult our unpublishable timeline!  1st VS swords appeared in 200 BL, Dragonstone was settled sometime in the following century, so yah, I have to agree with the flow increasing after that.   At the very least we got the remaining 8 swords after Dragonstone was settled.   

BL?

[Wrl6199]

3 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

BL?

Before the Lannisters maybe?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just now, Wrl6199 said:

Before the Lannisters maybe?

I would've assumed BC, before conquest but L and C are not close on a keyboard.  Before Lannister is thousands of years in the past.

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll take your word for it.  I have no idea.  I thought the thread would be about why Mormont joined the Night's Watch, because I wonder about that also but it also question how Mormont came by their ancestral sword.

I saw the quote about "the great bastard sword" when I was searching for something else.... Bloodraven being one of the great bastards, officially recognized in the line of succession.  That's the only time the sword is referred to as a bastard sword in the books as far as I can tell; but specifically a great bastard sword.  I thought it was suggestive of Bloodraven.  Since he was the last one to possess Dark Sister; I thought it was curious that Jon would refer to it that way.

One of the sticking points seems to be that Dark Sister is described as a long sword which I assume is not a hand a half sword.  But then Jon goes on to describe it as light weight with three fullers and needing to learn a two handed stroke which is more typical of a great sword.  Wikipedia describes the the designation of a long sword and a bastard sword during medieval periods as ambiguous.  So I take that to mean that the terms are interchangeable for that tiime period.

I imagine that if Bloodraven took the sword with him to the Night's Watch giving up all family ties; that it would become the property of his 'new family'; the brotherhood of the Night's Watch and renaming it to Longclaw would seem appropriate.  The sword then something that is passed down to lord commanders or someone worthy of it.

I think that Mormont's raven is Bloodraven keeping an eye on the NW and Jon in particular.  That bird has a lot to say... So it's curious that the bird tell Jon to 'take it'; while preening and eye-balling the sword.  He's later found perched on the sword.

It it is Dark Sister renamed to Longclaw; that's also suggestive of Arya, Jon's own 'dark sister' who describes herself in another passage as having long claws herself.  

But I don't know how you get past Mormont's version of Longclaw as his family's ancestral sword unless he is alluding to his new family; the brotherhood of the Night's Watch.  Others here have studied the question, seem to think it's questionable. 

Reading this I finally understand why so many people think Longclaw may be Blackfyre or Dark Sister.   It's the Bloodraven and "Great Bastards" stuff!   Thanks, I never got it.   It all makes sense now.  

I think the biggest problem with any sword having a new identity is the fact that Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories names each of these swords separately.  I'm beginning to think the "Inventories" was written fairly recently which opens up the whole mystery of who has the missing swords now.   A sword such as Longclaw is identified and credited to House Mormont.   There would have been no need to rename it since "Inventories" says it's been with the Mormonts for 500 years.   Longclaw was one of the originals, predating Dark Sister and Blackfyre.  It's interesting to me that Jeor tells Jon Longclaw had a name.  Not has a name, but had a name.   I thought the exact thing about Jeor that you thought about Bloodraven, the sword became a Nights Watch house sword.   Maybe there is some clause in being the keeper of the sword that fixes a person to a particular code of honor or duty.   Probably not, but Maege sure didn't want to keep Longclaw and Jeor seemed to be itching to give it away.   I'm thinking Jeor knows something about the Others and impending threat that we never got to hear.   For all I know he could have been trying to assemble his own 12 Hero Companions from among his brothers at the NW.  There is just so much we don't know.   One thing I do think is really possible is that the Mormonts are about as far north as you can get without being beyond the Wall.   Maybe their isolation has kept their memories sharper.   Maybe they actually remember the pact and understand the need for a new Last Hero?   

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

BL?

That's politically correct timeline lingo for Before Landing.   When we get to things after the conquest it's pc to call it AL for After Landing.   I don't make this stuff up.   I couldn't! 

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Before the Lannisters maybe?

Was there ever a time before Lannisters? 

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I would've assumed BC, before conquest but L and C are not close on a keyboard.  Before Lannister is thousands of years in the past.

I read some timeline study that said not to use BC or AC, it was too realistic or some damned thing.   

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's politically correct timeline lingo for Before Landing.   When we get to things after the conquest it's pc to call it AL for After Landing.   I don't make this stuff up.   I couldn't! 

The Targs didn't land at Kings Landing, Kings Landing landed on them!

 

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Was there ever a time before Lannisters? 

Lan the Clevar took it from the Casterlys.  The speculation is he used the sewers, which Tyrion is familiar with.