Let's Figure Out The Mormonts

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

I meant, where does it say in the inventories that the Mormonts had a VS sword named Longclaw. Is there a specific entry about that?

Does Jorah not talk to Dany about this in ACoK. Jeor was getting old and wanted Jorah to have his shot at being Lord before Jorah was a bit too old.

That was clever.   I looked through all the books and no, the closest I come is to the statements in Wiki and those I made above.   There is no passage that specifically states that Longclaw has belonged to the Mormonts in the inventories.   We only have the scattered statements from the Mormonts themselves.  I did however, happen upon a curious statement Jeor made when he gave Longclaw to Jon...

 

Jon nodded. "Does it have a name, my lord?"

"It did, once. Longclaw, it was called."

"Claw," the raven cried. "Claw."       Jon 8 AGOT

Jeor tells Jon the sword once had a name.  We have discussed why Maege didn't keep the sword.   Here we have Jeor almost denying Longclaw.   Did he expect Jon to rename it? 

Where are you going with a specific entry in the Inventories?   I mean, we don't really have Maester Thurgood's book, we only have what we are told it says.   Are you thinking we have been misdirected?   

[Curled Finger]

@estermonty python, you have touched on an interesting point about the Mormonts acquiring VS before, well before the Starks.  All I've got for that is perhaps Ancestral Ice was still around?  I made a timeline for the appearances and disappearances of the swords, but I have no idea how to post it.   I found during that research that Ice and Lady Forlorn are similar in color and both are stated to have arrived about 400 years ago.   I wonder if they didn't arrive at the same time from the same stock?

Until we get the rest of the history I suppose much of this will remain a mystery, unless we find out the swords were actually gifted to each of the original owners in TWOW or ADOS.   Of course that's far more than we could hope for with GRRM and his damned mysteries on top of mysteries.   I look forward to seeing all the swords come into play in TWOW.  Thanks so much for joining the discussion. 

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'd like to know why the F did Jeor enter the NW. I can't find anything on it. Trouble, honor, boredom, shame, I have not a clue. 

Good to see you, Man.   You can open any Benjen thread and see multiple and myriad statements regarding the North's general feelings of honor and duty toward the Nights Watch.   Jeor was old, his wife was gone and he wanted to give Jorah the opportunity to be the lord they both wanted him to be.   I get the feeling many of the North folks (& Royces curiously...) feel obligated to the NW, certainly those 3rd sons tend to end up there.   If you can see my reply to Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer, I found an interesting statement from Jeor to Jon about Longclaw.   Put that into your equation when figuring out why Jeor joined the watch.  He didn't seem to feel Longclaw had a name anymore.    Man I love these Mormonts!   

[estermonty python]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  All I've got for that is perhaps Ancestral Ice was still around?  I made a timeline for the appearances and disappearances of the swords, but I have no idea how to post it.   I found during that research that Ice and Lady Forlorn are similar in color and both are stated to have arrived about 400 years ago.   I wonder if they didn't arrive at the same time from the same stock?

 

Heartsbane is about 500 years old as well, about the same age as Longclaw.  Considering the only "legitimate" valyrian steel swords we know of with a pure chain of title - Longclaw, Ice, Heartsbane, Lady Forlorn, Dark Sister, and Blackfyre - all appeared in Westeros somewhere between 8-80 years before the Doom,  I can't help but wonder if the influx of Valyrian steel, the emigration of the Targaryens, and the Doom happening all within about a decade of one another aren't somehow connected.  I don't count the Valyrian steel in possession of the Ironborn, as it was all stolen so we have no way of knowing when it came to Westeros.

At any rate, I'd love to see that timeline.  I always found it odd that House Corbray maintained possession of Lady Forlorn even after Daemon Blackfyre killed Gwayne Corbray.  I, frankly, always found it strange that 500-odd years of Arryns, Tyrells, and Starks never managed to intermarry enough to get those weapons into the inheritance of the lords paramount of those regions. 

[Raisin' Bran]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Jeor tells Jon the sword once had a name.  We have discussed why Maege didn't keep the sword.   Here we have Jeor almost denying Longclaw.   Did he expect Jon to rename it? 

Where are you going with a specific entry in the Inventories?   I mean, we don't really have Maester Thurgood's book, we only have what we are told it says.   Are you thinking we have been misdirected?   

Not sure if he expected the sword to be given a new name, though I seem to recall that is the feeling I got when I read it the first time. Maybe he did not really like the name and hoped Jon would change it.

The point about the specific entry in the inventories I was trying to make is that there is nothing that verifies the story Jeor gave Jon about the sword's origins. Jorah does not mention it, neither does Maege.

I'm and sure you are aware of this, but many on this forum theorize that Longclaw is really Dark Sister, Visenya Targaryen's sword. Last noted to be in the hands of Brynden Rivers, who became LC of the NW, and likely was kept in the same apartments that Jeor occupied prior to the fire. I do not wholly buy into the theory, but it does present a good possibility.

[Curled Finger]

@Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer,ah the secret targ swords theory.  Thanks for clarifying.  Just for the sake of further clarification as I'm sure you already know all this...none of the swords we know of are bastard swords therefore Longclaw is entirely unique in blade size.  Dark Sister is specifically described as having a slim blade. Longclaw is too big to be Dark Sister.  We are told that Blackfyre requires 1.5 hands to maneuver but we don't know that it is a bastard blade.  (and we know GRRM already said Longclaw is not Blackfyre)  So I have no fear of the Longclaw = any of the other swords ideas.  Longclaw is unique among these rare blades.

When I reread that bit from Jeor before posting in your reply I got the distinct impression that Jeor didn't consider Longclaw his at all.  Still we don't have the book to read the inventories but I think we have to trust the information is actually there.  Longclaw belonging to the Mormonts sticks out like a sore thumb.  There has to be a reason for it!

[estermonty python]

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

When I reread that bit from Jeor before posting in your reply I got the distinct impression that Jeor didn't consider Longclaw his at all.  Still we don't have the book to read the inventories but I think we have to trust the information is actually there.  Longclaw belonging to the Mormonts sticks out like a sore thumb.  There has to be a reason for it!

Interesting.  I don't necessarily disagree, although you could say something similar regarding the Corbrays and the Tarlys.  If you want to argue that the Corbrays and Tarlys are richer and more influential in their respective regions than the Mormonts are, though, I won't disagree with that either.  Our perception of the Mormonts and their importance to the realm are undoubtedly skewed by the prominent roles Jorah and Jeor have played in the story.  

 

I have absolutely zero support for this idea, but I can't help but wonder if the raven's repetition of "claw" suggests that the sword is affiliated somehow with Craclaw Point.  I always found Brienne's detour there to be overly detailed - maybe it will have some importance going forward, or maybe Longclaw originated from a house loyal to the Targs?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 11/16/2016 at 2:57 PM, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

It seems that I had filled in the blanks on my own with no text to back it up. Though it seems quite probable that Jeor left the lordship to Jorah as he felt that Jorah was ready and the NW needed more good men to keep the rogues in check.

 

I guess that is probably the most likely reason. I think we would have heard somewhere from someone if it was because of trouble. Sure wish George would have given us something on this, maybe WoW will have it. 

[RumHam]

On 11/14/2016 at 0:27 AM, Curled Finger said:

I read an SSM where GRRM said he wouldn't reveal the Dayne's words because it would give too much of the story away.  

Huh, was that a relatively recent one? Maybe in a video? I don't remember it and can't find it in the archives. I'm struggling to think what could be given away in three or four words. Unless it's something about "bringing the light" or something that would support the Dawn is Lightbringer theory. 

[Snowmelter]

Is it not also possible Longclaw is Brightroar?  There were no Lannisters in Valyria, yet the young lion went looking there for their sword.  Um, why? 

 

 

[Raisin' Bran]

5 minutes ago, Snowmelter said:

Is it not also possible Longclaw is Brightroar?  There were no Lannisters in Valyria, yet the young lion went looking there for their sword.  Um, why? 

King Tommen II Lannister sailed with Brightroar to Valyria after the Doom and before the Conquest. He was never seen again. That's why Gerion (Tywin's brother) went looking in Valyria.

Surely the voyage from Lannisport would have required him to put into port somewhere. The Stepstones, Oldtown, or The Planky Town all seem to be places where he might have stopped. There would be records of that.

[Snowmelter]

Ahhh, forgive me.  Misread.  Thank you.

 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Snowmelter said:

Is it not also possible Longclaw is Brightroar?  There were no Lannisters in Valyria, yet the young lion went looking there for their sword.  Um, why? 

 

 

No.   Brightroar was a greatsword, Longclaw is too small to be Brightroar.   King Tommen decided he was going to get all Valyria's riches for himself.   I think of it as a failed trip that Euron may have been successful in.   Besides all this they are listed separately.   Why does Longclaw have to be anything other than Longclaw?  I don't mean to be short and hope it doesn't sound that way.   Longclaw is the ONLY confirmed bastard sword we have in the bunch.  Brightroar, Heartsbane, Lamentation and Ice were/are all greatswords.   All the others that we have descriptions for are longswords except Longclaw, the bastard sword.  

I LOVED the point you made about there being no Lannisters in Valyria.   I wonder how many Valeryans visited the Westerlands?   

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

Huh, was that a relatively recent one? Maybe in a video? I don't remember it and can't find it in the archives. I'm struggling to think what could be given away in three or four words. Unless it's something about "bringing the light" or something that would support the Dawn is Lightbringer theory. 

You know, RumHam, I went searching for the statement and they are usually fairly easy to find.   It appears I have misspoken.  I found tons of people saying essentially the same thing, but found a statement a poster named Elio Garcia made on Reddit last year indicating it was a falsehood.   He said he had the house words for the Daynes, but GRRM was undecided he would really use those words.   Please accept my apologies.   Great, now I have to rethink all those houses missing words.   If nothing else you pointed me toward the truth and I thank you kindly for that.  

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

King Tommen II Lannister sailed with Brightroar to Valyria after the Doom and before the Conquest. He was never seen again. That's why Gerion (Tywin's brother) went looking in Valyria.

Surely the voyage from Lannisport would have required him to put into port somewhere. The Stepstones, Oldtown, or The Planky Town all seem to be places where he might have stopped. There would be records of that.

The last report of them is found in a Volantene chronicle called The Glory of Volantis. There it stated that a "golden fleet" bearing the "Lion King" had stayed there for supplies, and that the triarchs lavished him with gifts. The chronicle claims that he swore that half of all he found would be given to the triarchs in return for their generosity—and a promise to send their fleet to his aid when he requested it. After that, he sailed away. The year after, the chronicle claims that the Triarch Marqelo Tagaros dispatched a squadron of ships toward Valyria to see if any sign of the golden fleet could be found, but they returned empty handed.  AWOIAF The Westerlands

 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Heartsbane is about 500 years old as well, about the same age as Longclaw.  Considering the only "legitimate" valyrian steel swords we know of with a pure chain of title - Longclaw, Ice, Heartsbane, Lady Forlorn, Dark Sister, and Blackfyre - all appeared in Westeros somewhere between 8-80 years before the Doom,  I can't help but wonder if the influx of Valyrian steel, the emigration of the Targaryens, and the Doom happening all within about a decade of one another aren't somehow connected.  I don't count the Valyrian steel in possession of the Ironborn, as it was all stolen so we have no way of knowing when it came to Westeros.

At any rate, I'd love to see that timeline.  I always found it odd that House Corbray maintained possession of Lady Forlorn even after Daemon Blackfyre killed Gwayne Corbray.  I, frankly, always found it strange that 500-odd years of Arryns, Tyrells, and Starks never managed to intermarry enough to get those weapons into the inheritance of the lords paramount of those regions. 

It’s all but certain that Blackfyre and Dark Sister were on Dragonstone prior to the Doom, but we don’t actually see them for another 200 years.   Is this significant?  It should be noted that the Targs are among the very few who managed to flee Valyria before the Doom but this was due to having their very own in-house prophet, Daenys the Dreamer.   Did Daenys dream more than we are told, perhaps of the 2^nd coming of a Long Night?  Were the Valeryans aware of The Others and sent the magic swords to aid in the war to come?   Or were the original swords a sort of ice breaker for introducing superior Valyrian weaponry and exposing Westerosi culture to Valyrians? 

 Heck yes, something way hinky is going on with the Doom.   Still, I think it all began with the cataclysm at Hardhome—I think that’s what jiggled things loose enough to cause everything else.   I settled on the Mormonts because I hoped someone caught something I didn’t—but I could have just as easily settled on the Tarlys, famed archers, not swordsmen.  These placements are so strange as related to the named VS swords.   It’s clear that you see the chain of events.  Something was going on.   I wondered if the swords making it to Westeros wasn’t some sort of reaction.   If you will indulge me for a moment I’ll try to explain.   Whatever caused Hardhome, magic, geothermal buildup or dumb luck was the big Planetos moving event in modern memory.   Hardhome happens then we hear of 4 VS swords finding their way to Westeros in the next century.   They were The Lannister’s Brightroar, Royce’s Lamentation, Mormont’s Longclaw and of course Tarly’s Heartsbane.  1 magic sword for the south, east, west and finally north.  Everyone tells me I’m nuts about the placement of these original swords, but I think it may be important.   At their height of appearance, (The Dance of Dragons)  there were 2 in the North, 1 in the West, 2 in the East, 2, possibly 3 in the South and 2 in the middle.   That’s the magic 12 which I believe was always the intended number of swords.   It is notable that near the time of the DOD Nightfall was added to the Westerosi armory as Lamentation was (I believe) destroyed.  Maintaining that magical 12 swords for whatever purpose a dozen magic swords would be needed for.  

What if Hardhome wasn’t an accident, much like some describe The Doom as the result of over mining and unmanageable magic?  What if Hardhome was a strike and the swords were a response; The Doom was a strike and the Targs were a response?  You know what happened in the century following Hardhome and prior to the Doom?   Dragonstone was settled, that’s what.  

A pure chain of title!  Great term.   Why would a modest family, virtually unknown to anyone outside the region and a family famous for their archery skills end up with named VS swords?   I don’t think either family purchased their swords so much as I think they were given Longclaw and Heartsbane.   These 2 families are barely blips on the radar insofar as Great Westerosi are concerned.  Royce, Lannister, Reyne, Stark and Hightower could afford to purchase their swords.  Could Corbray or Roxton?  600 years later houses become extinct and the Iron Islands hold the 2 VS swords for the west, swords are lost and destroyed while still 2 more are actually made.    Those Iron Born swords can be guessed at* for appearance.   For all we know Red Rain was the Reyne sword and they were annihilated in 258 AL.   Do you know what else happened in 258?   The War of the Ninepenny Kings.  In that both the Reynes and Drumms likely participated in that war and Tywin did not take possession of Red Rain during his campaign of extinction against the Reynes & Tarbecks, I think that is the most likely date for possession of Red Rain to change hands.  It could have happened earlier, but I haven’t found anything yet.  The War of the Ninepenny Kings is the only place I can actually put Iron Islands and Westlands together.  I was able to narrow Nightfall’s appearance with Dalton Greyjoy to right around 172 AL +/- 5 years. 

Ah, Lady Forlorn.   It’s almost easier to ignore that sword than try to really nail anything down with her.   Typos in the world book, suspect changes of hand, it’s all very complicated.  I don’t think it’s so strange the great families failed to intermarry.   They were all fighting and feuding—seems like the only times they ever joined forces was to out some greater war force.   These Westerosi are not smart nor particularly forethinking people.   I think intermarriage only became a “thing” in Westeros after Rhaenys Targaryan began the practice in an effort to unify the kingdoms into a single realm.   You have to admire the fortitude of those less fabulous houses that did manage to hang on to their swords.

You are obviously interested in the timeline of events.   I would love a scholar such as you to look at my blasted timeline, but I can’t figure out how to post it.   I’ve tried copy & paste, changing the file from excel to jpg and pdf but nothing seems to work.  But thanks very much for expressing interest in it.   I think we all benefit from even a short timeline of events.   Researching Nightfall and Red Rain really opened my eyes to the history of the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion and War of the Ninpenny Kings.  Cool, neat stuff. 

*They really are just guesses, but I think there is at least nominal support for the time frame of Red Rain joining House Drumm.   I'm much more confident about Nightfall.   Dalton was very very young when he died.   

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Interesting.  I don't necessarily disagree, although you could say something similar regarding the Corbrays and the Tarlys.  If you want to argue that the Corbrays and Tarlys are richer and more influential in their respective regions than the Mormonts are, though, I won't disagree with that either.  Our perception of the Mormonts and their importance to the realm are undoubtedly skewed by the prominent roles Jorah and Jeor have played in the story.  

 

I have absolutely zero support for this idea, but I can't help but wonder if the raven's repetition of "claw" suggests that the sword is affiliated somehow with Craclaw Point.  I always found Brienne's detour there to be overly detailed - maybe it will have some importance going forward, or maybe Longclaw originated from a house loyal to the Targs?

I wouldn't argue the Corbrays were richer during Tywin's time, but the Tarlys certainly are better off than the Mormonts or Corbrays.  Now then I have to ask if our perceptions really are skewed.  Jorah is a prevalent minor character we were given insight to.   Jeor is a tertiary character we were allowed to admire right along with Jon.  We know comparatively little about the Tarlys other than you guessed it, Sam!  Another character we have privileged access to.   I understand where you're coming from, but in a cast of literally thousands, why would our intrepid author bother to give us these characters if they weren't important?  

You haven't declared your endgame or interest in the swords here.   Fair enough, perhaps they aren't important in your reckoning of events.  I do think the swords are vitally important to end game as are the people who will ultimately wield them.  Both Heartsbane and Longclaw bother me a great deal because of their placement.  These families have held on to their swords for a very long time.  I think it's possible both families (all the original families who possessed the original VS swords) played some role in the past that may be fulfilled in the present or future.   I think the original families may have only been custodians of their swords and that just maybe Jeor Mormont knew exactly what Longclaw was for.  

[Snowmelter]

Curled Finger:  I think the idea of swords placed in different regions of Westeros is intriguing.  In the Mormont's case, Alys tells Asha Greyjoy that the women of Bear Island are the way they are because of the constant depredations of the Ironborn.  I wonder if the VS sword was bestowed on them for that reason.  After all, the Ironborn once controlled all the land where the sea could be heard (at least on the west coast of the continent).  Harran the Black did not build that f*ucking monstrosity because he feared any power of the  former  seven kingdoms, never mind how far from the sea it is.  I lost my copy of TWoIAF but didn't house Targaryen settle there quite a bit before the Doom...like a century or so?  Plenty of time to hand out VS swords to secretly loyal lords. 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer,ah the secret targ swords theory.  Thanks for clarifying.  Just for the sake of further clarification as I'm sure you already know all this...none of the swords we know of are bastard swords therefore Longclaw is entirely unique in blade size.  Dark Sister is specifically described as having a slim blade. Longclaw is too big to be Dark Sister.  We are told that Blackfyre requires 1.5 hands to maneuver but we don't know that it is a bastard blade.  (and we know GRRM already said Longclaw is not Blackfyre)  So I have no fear of the Longclaw = any of the other swords ideas.  Longclaw is unique among these rare blades.

When I reread that bit from Jeor before posting in your reply I got the distinct impression that Jeor didn't consider Longclaw his at all.  Still we don't have the book to read the inventories but I think we have to trust the information is actually there.  Longclaw belonging to the Mormonts sticks out like a sore thumb.  There has to be a reason for it!

I did come across this quote if it means anything:

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

And even more telling, only one in a hundred wildlings was mounted. The Old Bear will go through them like an axe through porridge. And when that happened, Mance must give chase with his center, to try and blunt the threat. If he should fall in the fight that must follow, the Wall would be safe for another hundred years, Jon judged. And if not . . .
He flexed the burned fingers of his sword hand. Longclaw was slung to his saddle, the carved stone wolf's-head pommel and soft leather grip of the great bastard sword within easy reach.

I know very little about these swords but Dark Sister is described as a long sword and I assume that a bastard sword is longer.  Longclaw is described as having three fullers and Mormont tells Jon he will have to learn two handed techniques which sounds more like a great sword.  Although Jon describes the heft of it as a lighter weight than Ice.  

I did find this entry in wiki interesting:

The term "longsword" is ambiguous, and refers to the "bastard sword" only where the late medieval to Renaissance context is implied. "Longsword" in other contexts has been used to refer to Bronze Age swords, Migration period and Viking swords as well as the early modern dueling sword.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

It would be ironic if Longclaw is Dark Sister described as 'having a thirst for blood' given that Jon's own dark sister Arya describes herself as having long claws:

A Storm of Swords - Arya XI

The Frey riders were struggling through the mud and reeds, but some of them had seen the wayn. She watched as three riders left the main column, pounding through the shallows. Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know.

Clegane cut Stranger loose with a single slash of his sword and leapt onto his back. The courser knew what was wanted of him. He pricked up his ears and wheeled toward the charging destriers. In a coat of gold or a coat of red, a lion still has claws. And mine are long and sharp, my lord, as long and sharp as yours. Arya had prayed a hundred hundred times for the Hound to die, but now . . . there was a rock in her hand, slimy with mud, and she didn't even remember picking it up. Who do I throw it at?

Mormont's raven is also present when Jon recieves the sword and tells him to "take it".  That's very suggestive.

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII
The raven flapped down and landed on the table, strutting toward the sword, head cocked curiously. Jon hesitated. He had no inkling what this meant. "My lord?"
"The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade, now … you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade." Mormont shoved the scabbard across the rough oak planks. "I had the rest made anew. Take it."
"Take it," echoed his raven, preening. "Take it, take it."

A Clash of Kings - Jon III
"Very good. See that my horse is saddled and ready. I mean for us to ride within the hour. Have you eaten? Craster serves plain fare, but filling."
I will not eat Craster's food, he decided suddenly. "I broke my fast with the men, my lord." Jon shooed the raven off Longclaw. The bird hopped back to Mormont's shoulder, where it promptly shat. "You might have done that on Snow instead of saving it for me," the Old Bear grumbled. The raven quorked.

 

 

[RumHam]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You know, RumHam, I went searching for the statement and they are usually fairly easy to find.   It appears I have misspoken.  I found tons of people saying essentially the same thing, but found a statement a poster named Elio Garcia made on Reddit last year indicating it was a falsehood.   He said he had the house words for the Daynes, but GRRM was undecided he would really use those words.   Please accept my apologies.   Great, now I have to rethink all those houses missing words.   If nothing else you pointed me toward the truth and I thank you kindly for that.  

Aw man no apologizes necessary, at worst you got my hopes up that there was some new quote to over analyze. 

FYI Elio Garcia is the owner of this website. He and his wife Linda were also the co-authors of The World of Ice and Fire.