Hooded Man of WF is 10000% Theon

[mattnj81]

Lots of interesting thoughts and theories in this thread, it's very enjoyable to read. I still like Hallis Mollen for the hooded man- we know he was en route to Winterfell, was a loyal Stark follower, would recognize Theon and has a tendency to state the obvious. If I recall correctly, Catelyn makes a point of thinking that twice. I would think GRRM making a point about an insignificant character would be purposeful.

[Praetor Xyn]

Quote

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. “Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer.”

Theon I, ADWD

He called Theon Kinslayer. To me this points to someone in contact with the Manderlys, as they have Wex who heard Theon moaning about the miller's boys in his sleep. Since Theon slept with the miller's wife multiple times it stands to reason the younger child might be his, which would make him a kinslayer.

[maudisdottir]

I thought "kinslayer" was in reference to the Stark boys.  They grew up as brothers.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Praetor Xyn said:

Theon I, ADWD

He called Theon Kinslayer. To me this points to someone in contact with the Manderlys, as they have Wex who heard Theon moaning about the miller's boys in his sleep. Since Theon slept with the miller's wife multiple times it stands to reason the younger child might be his, which would make him a kinslayer.

I don't think the HM calls Theon "kinslayer" b/c of the miller's boys, but even if that's what he meant, the same argument goes for several of Winterfell's people. I mean, how likely it is that Theon slept with the miller's wife several times and never bragged about it? Not very likely imo. 

[Praetor Xyn]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think the HM calls Theon "kinslayer" b/c of the miller's boys, but even if that's what he meant, the same argument goes for several of Winterfell's people. I mean, how likely it is that Theon slept with the miller's wife several times and never bragged about it? Not very likely imo. 

It very well could be. The prevailing interpretation is they grew up as brothers, but to me Kinslayer invokes the wrath of the gods, so I tend to think of it as blood kin. I have no idea who the hooded man is, even if my interpretation is correct. I'm just pretty sure it's not Theon himself.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

It very well could be. The prevailing interpretation is they grew up as brothers, but to me Kinslayer invokes the wrath of the gods, so I tend to think of it as blood kin. I have no idea who the hooded man is, even if my interpretation is correct. I'm just pretty sure it's not Theon himself.

Yeah, I'm not sure who he is either. There are a few possibilities that make more sense to me, like Hallis Mollen. Martin is so good at this sort of stuff, very annoying!

I agree about the HM being Theon himself. Don't get me wrong, I've read several interesting and at times intriguing "Theon Durden" theories over the years, but I remain unconvinced (and aware I may be wrong). "Who is the HM?" is similar to "Who wrote the PL?"; I've read several extremely interesting theories but I still think it was Ramsay.

 

[Praetor Xyn]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I'm not sure who he is either. There are a few possibilities that make more sense to me, like Hallis Mollen. Martin is so good at this sort of stuff, very annoying!

I agree about the HM being Theon himself. Don't get me wrong, I've read several interesting and at times intriguing "Theon Durden" theories over the years, but I remain unconvinced (and aware I may be wrong). "Who is the HM?" is similar to "Who wrote the PL?"; I've read several extremely interesting theories but I still think it was Ramsay.

 

I'm almost positive Ramsey did not write the Pink Letter.

1. Wrong style (the only letter we have from Ramsey prior, written to Balon Greyjoy, had a different handwriting and different writing style, was written in blood with a flap of flayed skin attached. The Pink Letter has none of these.)
2. The wrong torture is used two out of three times. Three tortures are mentioned: heads on spikes, cloaks of skin, and the ripping out and eating of a heart. Only the second is correct; Boltons flay.
3. The demands the letter makes are impossible, as some of the people it's asking for Jon does not have. Most of them Ramsay has no reason to ask for or care about either. It's more likely that the letter was just written to piss Jon off and cause chaos at the wall.

Personally I think Mance Rayder wrote it.

1. A lot of the language in the letter was used verbatim or closely enough by Mance or to Mance. "Your false king," "red whore," "I have him in a cage for all the north to see" compared to Mance himself saying "he burned the man he needed to for all the world to see", "black crows". If you go through the entire series to date, only wildlings ever refer to the Night's Watch as crows.
2. The author of the letter seems obsessed with wildlings, the wildling submission ceremony, and two of the demands are Val and Mance's son. Mance is the only major player who would care about these things.
3. Everyone in the letter is referred to by an alias. The only actual name in the text is Mance Rayder.
4. Scheming. Mance tells Jon to his face that the six spearwives will be useful for "a certain ploy I have in mind," and there are a couple of other hints. Val shows no emotion at all while "Mance" burns, and Mance brags about being able to climb any tower he wants. At one point Jon is telling Val what Melisandre sees in her flames, but Val already knows, presumably because Mance told her. So at minimum Val knows Mance is alive, at worse she's scheming with him. I can't think of any way Val could get Tormund to come to the wall without telling him Mance is alive. Immediately after Jon receives the letter he hands it to Tormund who claims to be illiterate, but moments later makes a joke about if he had a good goose quill and master's ink he could write how his member was as long as his arm. He's also said "dark wings, dark words," so he clearly has knowledge of ravens, maesters, quills and ink. His illiteracy seems like a farce and if there was coded language in the letter, Jon just gave it to him.

So I believe Mance wrote the letter to piss Jon off and likely make him do something stupid, causing chaos at the wall which would allow Tormund to take over Castle Black.

[Black Dragons]

No it is not Theon there is great video on YouTube that explain who the hooded man is   The vidoe is so smart I will never thought of it. please go watch.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I'm almost positive Ramsey did not write the Pink Letter.

1. Wrong style (the only letter we have from Ramsey prior, written to Balon Greyjoy, had a different handwriting and different writing style, was written in blood with a flap of flayed skin attached. The Pink Letter has none of these.)
2. The wrong torture is used two out of three times. Three tortures are mentioned: heads on spikes, cloaks of skin, and the ripping out and eating of a heart. Only the second is correct; Boltons flay.
3. The demands the letter makes are impossible, as some of the people it's asking for Jon does not have. Most of them Ramsay has no reason to ask for or care about either. It's more likely that the letter was just written to piss Jon off and cause chaos at the wall.

Personally I think Mance Rayder wrote it.

1. A lot of the language in the letter was used verbatim or closely enough by Mance or to Mance. "Your false king," "red whore," "I have him in a cage for all the north to see" compared to Mance himself saying "he burned the man he needed to for all the world to see", "black crows". If you go through the entire series to date, only wildlings ever refer to the Night's Watch as crows.
2. The author of the letter seems obsessed with wildlings, the wildling submission ceremony, and two of the demands are Val and Mance's son. Mance is the only major player who would care about these things.
3. Everyone in the letter is referred to by an alias. The only actual name in the text is Mance Rayder.
4. Scheming. Mance tells Jon to his face that the six spearwives will be useful for "a certain ploy I have in mind," and there are a couple of other hints. Val shows no emotion at all while "Mance" burns, and Mance brags about being able to climb any tower he wants. At one point Jon is telling Val what Melisandre sees in her flames, but Val already knows, presumably because Mance told her. So at minimum Val knows Mance is alive, at worse she's scheming with him. I can't think of any way Val could get Tormund to come to the wall without telling him Mance is alive. Immediately after Jon receives the letter he hands it to Tormund who claims to be illiterate, but moments later makes a joke about if he had a good goose quill and master's ink he could write how his member was as long as his arm. He's also said "dark wings, dark words," so he clearly has knowledge of ravens, maesters, quills and ink. His illiteracy seems like a farce and if there was coded language in the letter, Jon just gave it to him.

So I believe Mance wrote the letter to piss Jon off and likely make him do something stupid, causing chaos at the wall which would allow Tormund to take over Castle Black.

For so,e reason I'm unable to break up your post in my reply, so...

1. Well, Jon received a letter from Ramsay as well, when he learns that he is to marry "Arya". And one argument that is used often is that Jon doesn't note the spiky hand, etc. But if I receive a letter from someone that has a characteristic hand, when I get a second one I won't go 'oh look how spiky his handwriting is!'. Otoh, if the second letter from the same person has a different handwriting, I will think to myself, 'huh funny, his handwriting is different now'.

2. There's no such thing as 'wrong torture' imo. And no, I'm not advocating torture!

Yes, flaying is his thing but that doesn't mean he won't resort to other means of inflicting pain and terror. 

3. I'm sure something is up with the letter, but I think it's because Ramsay himself has been fed wrong intel and may have witnessed something(s) that convinced him whatever intel he got was spot on.

I don't have much to say about the second part of your post.

I will say though that I strongly disagree when you say Val wouldn't have been able to get Tormund to come without telling him Mance is alive. I think it's possible Val knows Mance is alive, but not b/c of some plot. I think it'd be something she learned herself. As to the rest,  I've read the same arguments before, and remain unconvinced. We shall see, and hopefully sooner rather than later!

[A Ghost of Someone]

For what it is worth, I do not trust Mance Rayder at all. I would not be surprised if Mance and Ramsay cut some sort of deal and obviously, there has been a lot of bloodshed in and around Winterfell. I also think they are held up inside as Ramsay's battle plan outside went terribly wrong, Ie, they are under siege.

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I'm almost positive Ramsey did not write the Pink Letter.

This thread is NOT about the Pink Letter.

[Jadakiss]

@valovictarion

The chapter name is a ghost in winterfell, not theon. you should check that again

[Jadakiss]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:34 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

For what it is worth, I do not trust Mance Rayder at all. I would not be surprised if Mance and Ramsay cut some sort of deal and obviously, there has been a lot of bloodshed in and around Winterfell. I also think they are held up inside as Ramsay's battle plan outside went terribly wrong, Ie, they are under siege.

 

On 2/2/2017 at 11:58 PM, Praetor Xyn said:

I'm almost positive Ramsey did not write the Pink Letter.

1. Wrong style (the only letter we have from Ramsey prior, written to Balon Greyjoy, had a different handwriting and different writing style, was written in blood with a flap of flayed skin attached. The Pink Letter has none of these.)
2. The wrong torture is used two out of three times. Three tortures are mentioned: heads on spikes, cloaks of skin, and the ripping out and eating of a heart. Only the second is correct; Boltons flay.
3. The demands the letter makes are impossible, as some of the people it's asking for Jon does not have. Most of them Ramsay has no reason to ask for or care about either. It's more likely that the letter was just written to piss Jon off and cause chaos at the wall.

Personally I think Mance Rayder wrote it.

1. A lot of the language in the letter was used verbatim or closely enough by Mance or to Mance. "Your false king," "red whore," "I have him in a cage for all the north to see" compared to Mance himself saying "he burned the man he needed to for all the world to see", "black crows". If you go through the entire series to date, only wildlings ever refer to the Night's Watch as crows.
2. The author of the letter seems obsessed with wildlings, the wildling submission ceremony, and two of the demands are Val and Mance's son. Mance is the only major player who would care about these things.
3. Everyone in the letter is referred to by an alias. The only actual name in the text is Mance Rayder.
4. Scheming. Mance tells Jon to his face that the six spearwives will be useful for "a certain ploy I have in mind," and there are a couple of other hints. Val shows no emotion at all while "Mance" burns, and Mance brags about being able to climb any tower he wants. At one point Jon is telling Val what Melisandre sees in her flames, but Val already knows, presumably because Mance told her. So at minimum Val knows Mance is alive, at worse she's scheming with him. I can't think of any way Val could get Tormund to come to the wall without telling him Mance is alive. Immediately after Jon receives the letter he hands it to Tormund who claims to be illiterate, but moments later makes a joke about if he had a good goose quill and master's ink he could write how his member was as long as his arm. He's also said "dark wings, dark words," so he clearly has knowledge of ravens, maesters, quills and ink. His illiteracy seems like a farce and if there was coded language in the letter, Jon just gave it to him.

So I believe Mance wrote the letter to piss Jon off and likely make him do something stupid, causing chaos at the wall which would allow Tormund to take over Castle Black.

 

Ramsay def did not write the pink letter. 0% chance he did. but this thread isn' about that

[Sea Dragon]

On 2/2/2017 at 7:08 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

No it is not Theon there is great video on YouTube that explain who the hooded man is   The vidoe is so smart I will never thought of it. please go watch.

What is the video? Who makes it?

[Makk]

On 2/3/2017 at 0:58 PM, Praetor Xyn said:

I'm almost positive Ramsey did not write the Pink Letter.

1. Wrong style (the only letter we have from Ramsey prior, written to Balon Greyjoy, had a different handwriting and different writing style, was written in blood with a flap of flayed skin attached. The Pink Letter has none of these.)
2. The wrong torture is used two out of three times. Three tortures are mentioned: heads on spikes, cloaks of skin, and the ripping out and eating of a heart. Only the second is correct; Boltons flay.

To suggest Ramsay's only method of torture is flaying is badly wrong. His main method of torture is actually psychological. He has also known to use starvation, beatings (fArya was covered in bruises), and also cuts of appendages. Just because you haven't seen a character do something, doesn't mean they won't do it.

As for the writing, as already pointed out above strongly in favour of Ramsay writing it. Jon has seen his distinctive handwriting before. If he got a letter which didn't have the same handwriting he would almost certainly recognise it as a forgery. 

[Sea Dragon]

On 2/2/2017 at 11:47 AM, mattnj81 said:

Lots of interesting thoughts and theories in this thread, it's very enjoyable to read. I still like Hallis Mollen for the hooded man- we know he was en route to Winterfell, was a loyal Stark follower, would recognize Theon and has a tendency to state the obvious. If I recall correctly, Catelyn makes a point of thinking that twice. I would think GRRM making a point about an insignificant character would be purposeful.

I read somewhere else once that Harwin was sent by Lady Stoneheart to see if Arya at Winterfell was really the true Arya. I know the idea that Lady Stoneheart and the BwB have been scouting for Arya but that they are not sure if fArya is real or not and have heard of an Arya in Winterfell. Harwin knows Arya and is loyal to the Starks, so maybe it could be him and he is rightfully mad at Theon?

[Makk]

I do still kind of feel that the hooded man is in Theon's head and is a reflection of himself. It doesn't necessarily mean he has was murdering all or any of those who died in winterfell in the full Theon Durden theory. I just see it as something of a psychological turning point for him, after all we know GRRM loves to write about inner conflict. But I don't have a strong opinion about it, it could easily mean something else altogether.

[Jadakiss]

31 minutes ago, Makk said:

I do still kind of feel that the hooded man is in Theon's head and is a reflection of himself. It doesn't necessarily mean he has was murdering all or any of those who died in winterfell in the full Theon Durden theory. I just see it as something of a psychological turning point for him, after all we know GRRM loves to write about inner conflict. But I don't have a strong opinion about it, it could easily mean something else altogether.

This is the answer I lean the most to. I think he did at least one murder tho. But that is all what I pretty much think.

It does make sense he did at least one murder tho. Cause even though dustin and roose check out his hand/fingers and determine he couldnt have done it. There is a scene in the same chapter that has Theon is specific using a dagger to eat his breakfeast, which shows he can wield it, same type of dagger the hm points to

[Makk]

13 minutes ago, Jadakiss said:

This is the answer I lean the most to. I think he did at least one murder tho. But that is all what I pretty much think.

It does make sense he did at least one murder tho. Cause even though dustin and roose check out his hand/fingers and determine he couldnt have done it. There is a scene in the same chapter that has Theon is specific using a dagger to eat his breakfeast, which shows he can wield it, same type of dagger the hm points to

I hope you do realise though that I am somewhat less than  10000% certain about it.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Jadakiss said:

This is the answer I lean the most to. I think he did at least one murder tho. But that is all what I pretty much think.

It does make sense he did at least one murder tho. Cause even though dustin and roose check out his hand/fingers and determine he couldnt have done it. There is a scene in the same chapter that has Theon is specific using a dagger to eat his breakfeast, which shows he can wield it, same type of dagger the hm points to

You're wrong. Shocking, I know, but there you go. When Roose, Barbrey, Frey and whoever else check Theon's hands, they say despite the missing fingers he could still hold and use a dagger.