The white walkers are the Others. The Others are the white walkers.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

eah and can be connected to fallen pieces of black rock from the sky in the story of the Bloodstone emperor in the WOIAF: 

"When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky."

This has a lot of dark similarities to the Others actually, Necromancy which is described as how they raise the Wights, feasting on human flesh is also a folk tale connected to the Others, which I think is simply a lost in translation description of the babies being taken away for their blood and their "life". 

Ooooh!  Glad that you mentioned this.  It was one of the biggest things that jumped out at me in the WoIaF.  

I hate to say it, but I pretty much always agree with your assessments.  Not that it's a bad thing, but I'm normally rather argumentative and critical.  Cheers!

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

On BR again, of course he is a figure who is more than willing to get his hands dirty but I believe that anything he does, it is going to be, in the end, for the greater good. 

Yes.  Just think of what we know about him from evidence in the novellas and the world book.  He absolutely seems a "gray man".  Exactly how you described.....willing to do what it takes for the greater good.  This type of character is usually my favorite, and way more interesting than the heroine or hero, IMO.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Ooooh!  Glad that you mentioned this.  It was one of the biggest things that jumped out at me in the WoIaF.  

I hate to say it, but I pretty much always agree with your assessments.  Not that it's a bad thing, but I'm normally rather argumentative and critical.  Cheers!

Yes.  Just think of what we know about him from evidence in the novellas and the world book.  He absolutely seems a "gray man".  Exactly how you described.....willing to do what it takes for the greater good.  This type of character is usually my favorite, and way more interesting than the heroine or hero, IMO.

Hey thanks WotS!. That's really nice. Always good to see you around the forum and on my threads. 

On Bloodraven, you know what the brilliant thing is, he should play some sort of part in most of the Novellas still to come, I think he will appear in the Winterfell one in person for sure. Always great to read about him!

[Wolf of the Steppes]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Hey thanks WotS!. That's really nice. Always good to see you around the forum and on my threads. 

On Bloodraven, you know what the brilliant thing is, he should play some sort of part in most of the Novellas still to come, I think he will appear in the Winterfell one in person for sure. Always great to read about him!

Absolutely!!....Also, liked your comment on how it's all about being able to analyse things together.  It's not like any one person can pick up on every aspect of this series (besides GRRM).  That's the great thing about it.  Whether we agree on everything or not, hopefully it sparks thoughtfulness.  At least we have a lot to talk about, considering how long we've waited for the next novel.

Back to BR, we can only hope that we see him in the next novellas.  His appearances in tMK, were great reading!

[Kienn]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

If im honest i believe its the only interpretation of that exchange but something tells me you think differently.

If I'm honest I find it amazing when people believe there's ever only one interpretation for any set of text. Even excruciatingly specific legalese is still open for interpretation... I'm usually optimistic so I generally just assume they're only pretending ignorance for the sake of argument though.

Anyways, my only point here was that the debate existed well before that letter surfaced. Even if it was a debate based on a faulty interpretation of some text, it was still there.

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I actually quote the exchange in the OP at the end.

Yes that's why I initially thought it unnecessary to actually quote it again and I simply referred to it as "that exchange between Bran & Old Nan".

[The Fattest Leech]

13 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think we are on the same page, but I'm not sure I am explaining what I want to very well. I'm going to try again. Keep in mind that in no way am I saying you are wrong, this is just how I interpret the text.

I think we are actually saying almost the same thing

 

Quote

The Great Other (as we see the term used) is only a god/power/spirit/whatever you want to call it opposing R'Hollor. When Mel says "he who's name shall not be spoken" (however it goes) she is talking about the Great Other. We only know the term Great Other from Mel's conversation with Davos. Therefore, this is all we have on this Great Other oppositional god.

There could stil be some sort of leader (an actual moving, communicating, living the way Others are "alive") but this leader would not be the Great Other. It would be more like a Last Hero/Azor Ahai type figure (for lack of a better comparison) rather than a god. 

Gotcha! Yeah, I can see this.

 

Quote

Hopefully I am making sense know. For some reason this is hard to put into writing...

Ugh! I know. I hate that feeling. It just goes to show the importance of real life interactions and how much communication is based on bady language and tone.

ADDING: Ok, this is a little embarrassing, but back in summer '16 I asked a question that sorta falls in line with this convo here. I hate talking about the gods in ASOIAF because just when I think I have it straight, BAM!, some divine intervention happens and info gets all mixed up again. The answers to the question then (linked) were just as mixed as they are now, or any other time it comes up. This may be one book riddle I shouldn't try to figure out and just wait to read how it happens

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, Kienn said:

If I'm honest I find it amazing when people believe there's ever only one interpretation for any set of text. Even excruciatingly specific legalese is still open for interpretation... I'm usually optimistic so I generally just assume they're only pretending ignorance for the sake of argument though.

Anyways, my only point here was that the debate existed well before that letter surfaced. Even if it was a debate based on a faulty interpretation of some text, it was still there.

Yes that's why I initially thought it unnecessary to actually quote it again and I simply referred to it as "that exchange between Bran & Old Nan".

No, you know what really is amazing though, when people start thinking they see things in these books when it simply is not there. I see it all the time. 

And it always reminds me of the advice were given in the very first book cleverly by GRRM through his own text. 

Sometimes it is just a Cat. No fabulous beast of any kind of sort. Just a Cat.

Just so. 

But since you have begun this wee dance though Kienn please feel free to explain why exactly you think you see a fabulous beast instead of an ordinary Cat in this instance. 

And I'll remind you at the end here, don't ever think to presume you know enough about to me to think I would plead ignorance for the sake of argument. That's a hefty assumption on your part. Stick to the book discussion and you will do just fine here buddy. 

[Kienn]

On January 13, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

And it always reminds me of the advice were given in the very first book cleverly by GRRM through his own text. 

Sometimes it is just a Cat. No fabulous beast of any kind of sort. Just a Cat.

Just so. 

I love those passages.

On January 13, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

please feel free to explain why exactly you think you see a fabulous beast instead of an ordinary Cat in this instance. 

 

Which is the fabulous beast? Which is the cat? Aren't we talking about mythical ice monsters/demons either way here?

On January 13, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

That's a hefty assumption on your part.

I haven't even said which my opinion is, you've just assumed it every step of the way...

On January 13, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

But since you have begun this wee dance

Did I?

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Kienn said:

I love those passages.

Which is the fabulous beast? Which is the cat? Aren't we talking about mythical ice monsters/demons either way here?

I haven't even said which my opinion is, you've just assumed it every step of the way...

Did I?

Yup, you dragged the thread on to the topic of interpretation so I'm curious as to what your view is on that part of the Bran Nan convo as I'll admit freely, I think you see it as having more than one meaning, and I obviously don't. 

A simple yes or no will do. Do you see a fabulous beast or a normal cat?.

The fabulous beast being there's a hidden meaning there pointing to a third species, the Others, that we haven't seen yet.

Or. 

The simple Cat. Nan thinks that the White Walkers are the Others.

No need to beat about the bush, simple answer will do.

[Voice]

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

It's long been debated that there are possibly three tiers to the Icy threat the humans, Giants, the Cotf... well generally everybody and everything are in mortal danger from. 

 

First, I must say, though you disagree with my hierarchy for now...I loved this OP.

You have identified many of the same details as I have in my multi-part description of the Others. Because of your attention to many of these same details, I am quite confident I will be able to persuade you with my rebuttal. But regardless of that, great work!

Now, to dig in and draw some lines in the ice...

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

The Wights.
The White Walkers. 
The Others. (Who many think we may have not seen yet). 

 

Ok, right off the bat... I must raise protest with your nomenclature.

As a fellow canon-thumper, I am surprised that you would capitalize 'wights' and 'white walkers'. Unless positioned as the initial word of a sentence, they are never capitalized by GRRM in A Song of Ice and Fire. Thus, like the "tower of joy," they are not proper nouns.

They are slang. Idioms. Folk expressions. 

The folk term "white walkers" is more common in the North, and North of the Wall. The folk term "the Others" (note the treatment as a proper noun) is more common in the South. "The Others take his eyes." "The Others take my wife." Etc. 

But anyway, from use of the Proper and improper nouns alone, we see several delineations...

• All wights can be called Others.
• All white walkers called Others.
• Not all Others can be called wights.
• Not all Others can be called white walkers.

Unless, that is, you mean to suggest that wights and white walkers are the same thing.

If not, that means that there are three distinct classifications, and that one of the classifications can be used as an umbrella term for the other two:

• the Others
  • white walkers
  • wights

Is that fair to say?

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

It all stems from an early piece of text from GRRM. Shown below:

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." 

 

Well no, actually. That is not where it all stemmed from, at all... 

I had been thumping this idea for quite a long time before the 1993 letter from GRRM to Ralph Vicinanza surfaced. All the 1993 letter did, for my purposes anyway, was serve as bit of anecdotal evidence, and it gave me a nice kick in the pants to post my hierarchy in an OP before someone else did. LOL

In truth, it all stemmed from my very first read of AGOT and Bran's querulous tone with Old Nan when she said the term "white walkers", and he corrected her. 

I'll speak more to that later, as you've quoted the same passage. 

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

While pondering this I thought I would go read the original outline pages again as it has been a while since I had. 

NOW. Before anybody jumps to the conclusion that we can't take anything at all we read in them pages as a guide for the story we are reading etc etc blah blah... 

Hear me out. 

The very piece of text I stated above is as old as all these first pages so everybody's idea of three tiers already rests on these ancient pages and pieces of text of GRRM's already, so this is merely an exercise of comparison. 

With that out the way, I'll proceed.

 

Well, no. I must quibble a bit with this slightly flippant bit of argument. I'm you meant no offense, but I must correct the error. My idea of three tiers does not rest upon the 1993 letter. It rests upon the text as published in the novels. 

Let us examine few citations:

1. Bran IV AGOT (I wanted to wait to discuss this one, but it bears mentioning here)

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

If you are familiar with the definition of the word querulous, then you of course know that Bran is being a little shit with Old Nan and her use of the term "white walkers." We know from Jon Snow's use of the term (#4 below) that the boys of Winterfell are familiar with both expressions:  the Others and white walkers.  (We also know that they do not use the term "white walkers" for the things that came in the long night...but I do not want to stray upon that tangent, yet.)

In this moment, Bran disagrees with Old Nan's use of the term "white walkers." We also know that Bran has heard this story before, and knows it by heart. And thus, his correction of Old Nan's nomenclature is to be expected for a pissy little lordling disrespecting his elder. 

How do we know Bran has heard this story before, and knows it by heart? Well, I'm glad you asked.  LOL

That is easy to answer. Maester Luwin quite famously interrupts Old Nan's storytime with news of a visitor. Tyrion is waiting below, with Yoren and some hand-drawn plans for Bran's saddle. While in the hall with Yoren, Bran asks about his Uncle Benjen. Yoren informs Bran that Ben is too long away. Without returning to Old Nan, Bran (independently) recalls the end of this story:

Too long," Yoren said. "Most like he's dead."

"My uncle is not dead," Robb Stark said loudly, anger in his tones. He rose from the bench and laid his hand on the hilt of his sword. "Do you hear me? My uncle is not dead!" His voice rang against the stone walls, and Bran was suddenly afraid.

Old sour-smelling Yoren looked up at Robb, unimpressed. "Whatever you say, m'lord," he said. He sucked at a piece of meat between his teeth.

The youngest of the black brothers shifted uncomfortably in his seat. "There's not a man on the Wall knows the haunted forest better than Benjen Stark. He'll find his way back."

"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

So yet again, Bran recalls the proper term:  the Others. Old Nan was not afraid to patronize him as a "sweet summer child" who knows nothing of fear... but... Bran is not sweetrobin. He's the broken, querulous greenseer-kid whose "favorites were the scary ones." 

He knows this tale, and he knows it well. He knows it was the "story of the Others and the last hero" ... not the "story of the white walkers and the last hero."

So querulous... yes. But, "Old Nan agreed" with him. 

 

2. Samwell I ASOS (the walk back from the massacre at the Fist)

The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood.

Ok. Lots to chew on here. 

I don't want to get cute, but I must mention that Samwell's word choice is rather telling, when debating a three-tier hierarchy:

three long blasts means Others

Why three? Hmm...

But anyway, moving on. Samwell lists several entities signaled by three long blasts of the horn:

• The Others
• The white walkers of the wood
• the cold shadows
• the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood

At least I'm not proposing a four-tiered hierarchy, right?  

The first three are familiar enough, right? You might be surprised to hear that I agree with your opinion regarding Martin's use of omnicient narrator-voice when describing the Others in the prologue. I've made the same point many times over the years. But you did not invite me to this thread to reminisce. 

So, back to cold hard canon. The first three creatures Samwell lists seem familar to us, do they not?

We have seen the first: the Others. We have likely seen the second: the white walkers of the wood (Jon even mentions killing one, below). And, we seem to have seen the the third as well: the cold shadows. But, in regards to the third, maybe we have not yet seen them. I tend to think we have, though ... in the AGOT Prologue from Will's POV (we may have also seen them in the ADWD Prologue from Varamyr). 

But, I think you must concede that we have not seen any close encounters of Sam's fourth kind:

the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood

Note the striking similarity between Sam's fourth kind, and Old Nan's "Others" that stalked the last hero:

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"  

So while we have not yet seen Others like this, we now have two accounts of them existing from two very different sources... and them ain't the only ones...

From the Annals of Castle Black:

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."  

So that makes three sources now for the Others that only come by night, and employ ice spiders:  Old Nan, Samwell, the Annals. 

3. Bran II ADWD (Coldhands speaking)

"The white walkers go lightly on the snow," the ranger said. "You'll find no prints to mark their passage." A raven descended from above to settle on his shoulder. Only a dozen of the big black birds remained with them. The rest had vanished along the way; every dawn when they arose, there had been fewer of them. "Come," the bird squawked. "Come, come."  

Lightly?

Don't they slide on silent feet?

In any case, it certainly doesn't seem as if Coldhands believes the white walkers ride mounted upon Ice Spiders.

 

4. Jon V ADWD (Jon speaking to the wildings)

"We hold the Wall. The Wall protects the realm … and you now. You know the foe we face. You know what's coming down on us. Some of you have faced them before. Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell. They kill, then they send your dead against you. The giants were not able to stand against them, nor you Thenns, the ice-river clans, the Hornfoots, the free folk … and as the days grow shorter and the nights colder, they are growing stronger. You left your homes and came south in your hundreds and your thousands … why, but to escape them? To be safe. Well, it's the Wall that keeps you safe. It's us that keeps you safe, the black crows you despise."  

This one is quite a doozy. 

Are white walkers dead things with black hands?

If so, they do not seem to be the same things that Will saw in the AGOT Prologue, nor do they seem like the Other that Samwell killed in Sam I ASOS. In his use of the term "white walkers," Jon seems to be describing entities like Coldhands that, unlike Coldhands, have blue eyes. What's more, is that Jon distinguishes such entities from wights, when he said, "They kill, then they send your dead against you." The "dead" they send against you would be wights, no? 

How does Jon know what created Othor and Jafer Flowers?

I cannot say. But I can say that either Jon is saying that both wights and white walkers are dead things that have "blue eyes and black hands," or, that wights and white walkers are seperate entities from the ones that have blue eyes and black hands... The only scenario Jon's sentence structure seem to prohibit, is one in which only wights have blue eyes or black hands and are dead, and that white walkers are different from wights in those regards. 

Now, Jon may be exaggerating, or even lying. But if so, this seems a bit odd for him, doesn't it? 

We must at least entertain the possibility Jon is telling the truth and knows what he is talking about. Our favorite bastard makes this declaration not only after growing up with stories of such creatures (and their distinctions) from Old Nan, and listening to Samwell's account after the Fist, but after having benefitted from reports of Samwell's findings in the Annals as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. 

Now, let us backtrack just a bit. And this post has already gone on far longer than I intended, so I will stop after this next point, and return to the rest of your OP in another reply. 

The point which I'd like to return to is Samwell's encounter with "the Other" in Samwell I ASOS, and Will and Waymar's encounter with an "Other" in the AGOT Prologue.

Those things were "Others", yes?

If so, we must, per Jon's account, accept that they were not white walkers. Per Jon, white walkers are dead things with black hands and blue eyes. And of course, GRRM has told us that the Others are not dead. 

You made the same point in a response on the first page of this thread. So we at least agree that the Others are not dead. Let us enjoy that common ground.

They are very much alive. Rather than be dead things with black hands, the Others, we both agree, are simply another form of life. One that is not carbon-based, but ice based. I have proposed (here, in this thread) that the Others are in fact frozen water, carbon dioxide, and, frozen oxygen (O₂). (My reasons for these particular particulates are detailed in the linked theory. I won't bog this one down with them.)

And I think we both agree that GRRM's description fits rather perfectly with the descriptions found in the chapters of the only two characters who have ever witnessed/encountered an Other:  Will (AGOT Prologue) and Samwell (Sam I ASOS). 

And yes, I agree that each of these men encountered a genuine Other. 

Where there is some need for clarification for "white walkers," is in the accounts of Coldhands and Jon Snow. 

Coldhands:

"The white walkers go lightly on the snow," the ranger said. "You'll find no prints to mark their passage."

Jon Snow:

"Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell. They kill, then they send your dead against you." 

 

So who is right, Coldhands or Jon? Can the both be? 

Well, I think they can. All we need to is accept that some white walkers are dead things with blue eyes and black hands that go lightly upon the snow and leave no prints to mark their passage. 

Or, conversely, all we needs do is accept that Coldhands knows the nature of white walkers more intimately than Jon. 

What is interesting about this latter angle, is that shortly after making this observation, Bran and company are attacked by dead things with blue eyes and black hands that left no prints to mark their passage. Most of us would agree that those things were "wights." I certainly agree with that. 

So is it "white walker" and "Other" that are synonymous? Or, is it "white walker" and "wight" that are synonymous? Bran's querulous conversation with Old Nan seems to negate the former, Jon's declaration to the wildlings seems to support the latter. Unfortunately, Coldhands offers clarification for neither interpretation. 

Thankfully, our favorite coward does go on to offer some detail:

The wights had been slow clumsy things, but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul's axe, armor rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped between the iron rings of Paul's mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say, "Oh," as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip.  

Here, we have a stark contrast between wights and an Other. 

Unfortunately, Sam offers no clarification on "white walkers" ... although... he already did that earlier in the same chapter:

• The white walkers of the wood

(again, Sam I ASOS)

So we know that Samwell knows the term "white walkers." And we know that he did not name the Other he encountered as a "white walker." 

I propose that man has simply forgotten the nature of the threat.

It's been 8000 years, and such demons are not often the topic of polite or learned conversation. Maesters have been dismissing their existence for millennia. It seems only the wetnurses have kept accurate historical records, and they are but oral in tradition.

So there is much room for error and interpretation among our POV characters, as well as among we readers. And, I think GRRM makes this great range of variance plain in his use of lowercase nomenclature for "wights" and "white walkers." 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

If we are also considering the 1993 letter, these are our "cold legions of the undead" and "the neverborn." I'll address your exclusion of the latter group in another post. For now, let us agree for the sake of argument that these can be seen as analogous entities:  wights~cold legions of the undead, white walkers of the wood~the neverborn.

Controlling them, in both the 1993 letter and our published novels, we have the "inhuman others" = "the Others." I think that is something else upon which we can agree. And it is in the characteristics of "the Others" that things really get interesting. Unlike his frustratingly vague/contradictory descriptions of "white walkers" and "wights", GRRM is incredibly specific and consistent when it comes to describing the Others (proper noun Others) in ASoIaF. 

[Dofs]

I have always thought "White Walkers" is a show term. In the books "white walkers" is used just as a substitute for Others, like some call Crannogmen as "frogeaters", not as an official name.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Voice

I'll reply as my working day goes on. In short bursts like this.

From the top.

I capitalised in my OP but let's set that aside, to avoid confusion, and return to the book text. Forget my own improper use, I type notes on my liPhone and it has its own mind on how notes should be written and I never corrected it lol. 

Isn't the term white walkers just a common noun for the Others?, their real name, the proper noun. That's what I thought. Hence the non capitals and capitals.

That white walkers is a general term while the Others is the official term in GRRM's mind.

Im not going to dwell on the wights really as I think the main confusion here is you think the white walkers are one type of being we have already seen, and the Others have yet to show face. The wights are easily told apart so I'll leave them.

In the South the common and proper noun is used to describe the exact same being. 

ASOS SAM I:

"The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . ."

Note the common and proper noun relating to the same being and also the connection of Ice Spiders to the white walkers, which you connect only to the Others that we haven't seen yet. But here they are exactly the same being, riding Ice Spiders. 

If Sam is told this story likely other boys in the south were too but what's important is that here is a clear cut instance of both names referring to the same being from GRRMS own hand, and it's not the only instance in the books. 

Infact, there is not one instance in the books where one character thinks that the Others are not the white walkers and that they are separate tiers to this Icy threat. Not one. Everybody uses the term to mean the same beings. 

The Nan Bran exchange is down to interpretation, but i'll get to that. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

25 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I have always thought "White Walkers" is a show term. In the books "white walkers" is used just as a substitute for Others, like some call Crannogmen as "frogeaters", not as an official name.

Yup. In the mummers adaption its the only official name. 

In the books the official name is the Others but the white walkers is a term used to describe the Others, in the North, and also the South.

[Voice]

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

In what GRRM lays out as a rough guide for book one - A Game of Thrones, he has instances in that book, early on in his proposed three book series, where the Others appear. 

Catelyn flees the burned Winterfell with Bran and Arya and seeks refuge at the Wall. Jon turns them out and they travel onward North of the Wall where they meet Mance Rayder. 

This is where they get a glimpse of "the Inhuman Others" as they attack the Wildlings encampment.

There is no mention of the Wights or White Walkers, but GRRM gives us a glimpse of the creatures he calls the Others, with no apparent plan to hold them back for later in the second or third book as some kind of hidden power to be revealed riding Ice spiders.

 

The bold is simply not true. Look again at this paragraph from the 1993 letter. We've seen the blue, but not the red:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

We've seen them raise cold legions of the undead and neverborn. What we have not seen is them ride down on the winds of winter, prepared to extinguish everything we call "life." As GRRM states quite clearly, that climax will be the subject of The Winds of Winter (then, the third volume in the trilogy). 

And of course, GRRM simply swapped characters to fulfill the same results as outlined with Cat and Bran. Theon turned Bran away. Catelyn fled after the catspaw's library fire. Mance vs the Others/wights/white walkers occurred, casualties were sustained, it simply happened off-page. 

And rather than become an undead wight, Catelyn is now an undead Lady Stoneheart. 

So different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.  

In any case, yes. Per the original outline, the original trilogy, and the books as they have eventually been published, there has always and ever been a plan to hold back the might of the Others for The (then, third volume) Winds of Winter. 

Or did you think "winter is coming" only referenced things that combust like strawmen and melt at the slightest glance of obsidian? 

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

GRRM always had the idea of the Others being the highest level of the threat from the North, his "beautiful Sidhe made of Ice" creatures have always been the worst thing imaginable that can come from the North, and here he is unleashing them in physical form, and by name, as early as the first book of his planned three, just like he does with the books we ended up with. 

There never has really been much evidence of the Others being a held back power that was going to be unleashed later by the looks of it. 

 

LOL! What? Certainly I agree, if we simply ignore the evidence printed upon the page... 

1. and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

2. "The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"  

3. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"  

4. He remembered turning in a circle, lost, the fear growing inside him as it always did. There were dogs barking and horses trumpeting, but the snow muffled the sounds and made them seem far away. Sam could see nothing beyond three yards, not even the torches burning along the low stone wall that ringed the crown of the hill. Could the torches have gone out? That was too scary to think about. The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood.

5. "I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."  

 

All we have seen, thus far, are the cold ones of Summer and Fall. 

We've yet to see them in Winter, nor in a generation-long darkness. 

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

The White Walkers are the Others, and the Others are the White Walkers. I don't think there was much of a plan, if any plan, to have the White Walkers appear to us with armies of Wights, only for there to be another darker threat to come in later books called "the Others". 

 

It need not be "another darker threat" called "the Others." Only a more powerful, higher ranking version of them. 

One thing that few people seem to realize about my little hierarchy is that it is not meant to be taken as a hierarchy of species, but as a military hierarchy. Although, there certainly seem to be some phenotypical differences between the various types of "Others." 

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

I believe we meet the Others in the Prologue of A Game of Thrones and there is no other version of them we will see, except to read of them in higher numbers and possibly riding on the backs of massive Ice spiders. 

 

We agree. But you seem to believe that an Other upon the back of an ice spider is of the same rank as an other afoot. Or an other upon a dead horse. 

That is silly. 

The Others are militant. We even have tales of them accepting gifts from a King. 

If an Other upon an ice spider = an Other upon a dead horse = an Other afoot

then...

A man upon a dragon = a man upon a horse = a man afoot. 

 

The mounts alone reveal a three-tiered hierarchy: Spider-mounts, Calvary, Infantry.

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm no literature expert but when reading the AGOT Prologue, which I realise is mostly from the POV of Will, there are instances where GRRM is simply explaining the setting or the surroundings etc. as he does many times throughout his books. 

In regards to certain (if not all) instances in the AGOT Prologue where GRRM mentions the Others, I believe there's a case to be argued that these are examples of GRRM narrating the scene and not relaying Wills thoughts. 

If this is the case, that only backs up my idea that GRRM actually presents us with the Others in the very first chapter of the whole epic series. Actually GRRM himself naming these beings as the Others. Unless I'm horribly mistaken.

So I'm proposing that When Waymar and Will meet the Others. So do we.

 

I quite agree with all of this. 

And, you have just proven my three-tiered hierarchy...

Let us reexamine Will's Prologue:

 

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them... four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. 

 

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Did you catch the proof?

I'll trim the passage to highlight it: 

1. They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them... four... five... Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them.
2. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.
3. The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.
4. The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. 

 

I have a feeling you see what I see. 

My explanation now is only for anyone who might not...

Item 1:  Note that the "they" are not identified by Will as "Others."  They are twins to the first, yet do not earn the proper noun honorific. 

Item 2:  a) Now, they are called "the watchers." This should evoke the Night's Watch vow in our minds, and, we know that the Sworn Brothers of the Night's Watch have a hierarchy.

             b ) Note that the watchers know their role, and stay back. Patient indeed. 

Item 3:  To whom do we think the Other is speaking? At first glance, it seems as though the Other is mocking Ser Waymar. And I mean, c'mon... why wouldn't he? LOL But unless the Other is completely daft, he knows Ser Waymar isn't speaking his icy language. And that Waymar, boy has he been talking a lot. I propose that the Other also knows that the patient, silent "watchers" do speak his language. Is he mocking the noble Ser Waymar Royce? I certainly think so. But he isn't mocking Waymar to Waymar. Only his "watchers" can fully comprehend the manner of the Other's mocking words. This Other is exercising his authority and demonstrating his prowess in a way only his subordinates can understand.

Item 4:  Who gave the watchers their signal to move forward? Either it was the Other, or it was some higher authority whom they serve. 

The Others made no sound. 

 

On January 10, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Macgregor of the North said:

Old Nan maybe was right. 

"little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously. 

"The Others," Old Nan agreed."

 

Oh yes. Old Nan was right to agree with Bran.  

[Macgregor of the North]

@Voice

I think you are mistaken, sorry. I'll explain . 

We will touch on the querulous mention here too. 

Yes, the boys at Winterfell have heard tales of the Others, but you wrongly assume that Bran has heard that particular tale loads of times. 

False. 

Jon has, when he was a boy. But remember, when he was a boy Bran wasn't old enough to hear that tale, or comprehend it/remember it. 

Note that Old Nan asks him if this is the sort of story he likes, to which he stutters in his reluctance, thinking he is sure he likes it but not really sure.

AGOT BRAN IV:

"Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?" 

"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only …"

Now this is not the behaviour of a boy who knows this story inside out, this is the behaviour of a boy hearing a story that is new to him and is preparing himself for some scary shit. 

Yes, Old Nan has told the smaller children of the Others, the white walkers of the woods but never has she told Bran the full story of the Long Night and the Last Hero when he's been old enough to fully take it all in, this is new to him. 

Here are a couple of tales Nan has told the smaller children:

AGOT BRAN I:

"He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children."

ACOK ARYA III:

"She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. Now she knew how he must have felt."

And here is the tale she tells Bran but she is telling it to Jon. 

AGOT JON VII:

"Unbidden, he thought back on the tales that Old Nan used to tell them, when he was a boy at Winterfell. He could almost hear her voice again, and the click-click-click of her needles. In that darkness, the Others came riding, she used to say, dropping her voice lower and lower. Cold and dead they were, and they hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every living creature with hot blood in its veins. Holdfasts and cities and kingdoms of men all fell before them, as they moved south on pale dead horses, leading hosts of the slain. They fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children …"

Now note her mention of the Others in the tales. That is her preferred name for them. The real name, the proper noun. But! When she comes to finally tell Bran the full story of the Long Night and the Last Hero Nan uses the often used common noun term for the Others, the white walkers. 

Now Bran, being the little bossy boots that he is has a little moan and corrects his old story teller. Remember, if we read the context of the chapter he is feeling very frustrated with Nan, quite frankly he's sick of the sight of her face! And will nitpick little things like that. Like the common term being used in place of the proper name he prefers. 

Hence he hits her with the correction in a querulous tone. 

And you are incorrect when you say Bran thinks the Cotf will save Ben because he has heard the tale so many times so he recalls the ending himself, the text clearly shows Bran is quite new to this tale in full as he is reluctant and a bit scared. 

He thinks the Cotf will save Ben because just  before Nan and Bran are interrupted Nan mentions the Cotf FOUR times. 

"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

[Voice]

5 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And you are incorrect when you say Bran thinks the Cotf will save Ben because he has heard the tale so many times so he recalls the ending himself, the text clearly shows Bran is quite new to this tale in full as he is reluctant and a bit scared. 

He thinks the Cotf will save Ben because just  before Nan and Bran are interrupted Nan mentions the Cotf FOUR times. 

 

Forgive me, but in my copy of the books, Bran remembers how the tale ended.

 

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"  

 

Methinks you are either due for a reread, or you are employing a very selective type of reading. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Voice

To save this getting silly as I think you are taking a backwards step. Your heirarchy clearly, very clearly differentiates between the white walkers and the Others as beings that different weapons can kill, which points to you thinking they are different beings. 

You say that fire kills Wights, Dragonglass kills these white walkers and that the Others are something else, which perhaps Dragonsteel can kill.

You clearly set them apart that way in your own thread but are now backtracking in my thread saying you simply think it is just a military based heirarchy but the beings are the same. 

Forgive my frustration but which is it, please be 100% clear. 

I love debates of these kind but if you are wasting my time id rather know now. 

I agree the Others have rank, if that's all you are talking about its case closed, we are in agreement. 

But if you think the Others and white walkers are "physically" different, do carry on and I'll debunk that for you easily enough. 

But be clear what you are trying to do here.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Voice

Also, remember, just because a group of beings are preparing to ride down to extinguish life when full winter comes, that does NOT mean they can't appear before that time.

Especially if it's very necessary.

Like neutralising what they see as a serious threat - Waymar and his sword.

And overlooking the attack at the fist. 

Two very important instances that would actually fall in line with the Others preparation to ride down when full winter hits. 

In GRRMS original trilogy the Inhuman Others attack the Wildlings in book one, Cat sees them in person. 

He had no plans to hold them until book three then and has no plans to hold them back until book six and seven now. 

They appeared in book one of the old and the new plan. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

22 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Forgive me, but in my copy of the books, Bran remembers how the tale ended.

 

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"  

 

Methinks you are either due for a reread, or you are employing a very selective type of reading. 

How could you possibly know that doesn't mean that he is referring to the story ended there due to the interruption, or he made the assumption himself that's how it ended, or he has heard on a separate occasion from Maester Luwin in a very brief version that the Last Hero was helped by the Cotf?.

And if you actually reread the passage yourself there's absolutely nothing there at all to show that Nan is telling Bran a story he has heard many many times in that full version Nan tells him. The version she's telling is new to him.

That much is obvious by the text no?. I explained that in my post.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Voice

Ok since the thread has gone cold I'll recap. 

I fully believe that in your original thread you we're pushing the idea that there are three types of beings in the heirarchy of the Others. There are wights, white walkers and there are a separate being, the Others. 

This I think proves it, from your own thread:

1. The inhuman others ride down on the winds of winter...

* Winter has only just come to Westeros, which means we can't have seen these 'inhuman others' yet.

2. The inhuman others raise legions of undead and the neverborn...

* Those we have seen. They are our current text's version of wights (legions of undead) and white walkers (the neverborn).

3. People have half forgotten these demons of legend...

Now, the Night's Watch is learning the differences between them again. It turns out fire is the best way to kill a wight, and dragonglass (aka frozen fire) is effective against a white walker. My theory suggests neither will be effective against the ancients that ride Ice Spiders, but that this dragonsteel Samwell found mention of in the annals at Castle Black will be."

Then, you go on to say in my thread that you don't think this, but you agree with me that the Others and the white walkers are the same species, the same beings, but it is simply a division of rank within these beings you are now talking about and that we haven't seen the top rank of the Others yet. 

Sorry but when you talk about different weapons being able to kill different sets of beings you are clearly talking about a separate species here, made up of something different.

Your own words here:

"One thing that few people seem to realize about my little hierarchy is that it is not meant to be taken as a hierarchy of species, but as a military hierarchy."

That may well be true, and I can't dispute that really, but it may well be true also that the Other who led the group who killed Waymar was the leader of the Others, the general If you will. There is absolutely nothing in the text to dispute that either. I'm not saying that is so, just an example.

So, on closing, you have went from believing that there are a set of beings called the white walkers that we have seen a few times in the story, and these are the beings that Dragonglass can kill, and there are a set of beings we are yet to see, the actual Others who are a separate being which only Dragonsteel can kill. 

To believing now that, these beings are the same, the Others and the white walkers are the same species, the same beings, but we may not have seen their generals yet who ride the Ice Spiders. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is where we are at now is it not?

[Macgregor of the North]

@Voice

In regards to your quotes from the Prologue regarding the back up Others being referred to as "They" and "watchers" and you using this as proof they are not Others.

Contrary to what you believe Voice, this actually debunks you three tier theory.

If you claim we have seen no Others yet at all, only white walkers, their underlings, we have both successfully debunked your original theory that the Others have not appeared in the story yet and are being held back to be unleashed riding Ice Spiders late in the story, because you clearly now agree that at least one Other appears in the Prologue, without his Ice Spider incidentally. 

Now, the only thing to do here is prove that the back up Others are not a separate set of beings that have a different physical make up to the Others, and different immunities to different weapons, and are simply their underlings who go by a different name, the white walkers.

And I will prove this. 

You claim that simply because GRRM doesn't outright refer to them as Others they are not Others (this is actually false, but wait til the end for that penny to drop). It is weak evidence anyway really and doesn't confirm what you think it does. Infact, very very far from it. 

By this logic, this quote here shows that the leader who confronts Waymar is not an Other because he is referred to as a "shadow".

AGOT PROLOGUE:

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce."

We both know this being to be an Other though now do we.

As to his companions, there is absolutely nothing at all that shows they are in any way a different being from the main Other. In absolutely every way they are physically described as exactly the same. 

AGOT PROLOGUE:

"They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first."

And here, check the lead Others armour.

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took."

Then check the back up Others description, we already know they are twins to the first.

"Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere."

These are not underlings of lower rank (in the sense that they are merely white walkers while the other is an Other), mere soldiers to the super being "the Other" leading them. These are equals in physical make up and armor, beings of equal in every sense apart from that one leads the confrontation.

All this shows, and I mean all it shows, is that the Others are clever, can move on a target in group formation, and have structure, and apparently rank. 

This does not show that these are a separate being to the Others, these mere white walkers you are talking about. All these beings are Others. 

If you actually analyse the scene it would be strange if GRRM was to continuously refer to the other Others as Others you know what i mean. The text has to have a certain flow that is easy to read, you can't really write things like "the other Others emerged from the shadows" or different variations of things like that, that lumps the words other and Others into a scene a bit too much and can look muddled and confusing on page. 

Hence he refers to them as they, and the watchers because if truth be told, these terms are correct, they are a "they", and "they" were watching. 

And here, just to drive this point home completely and utterly beyond any comeback, GRRM refers to the whole group as Others. 

This is before Will even notices the pale shapes moving out the corner of his eye so it is 100% not Will telling us this bombshell, he doesn't know the Others are there yet, it's GRRM, the one who's word we can't question.

"The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

The Others made no sound."

So there we have it, straight from the canon source, a group of Others moved on Waymar in the very first chapter of the whole book, and they were not riding Ice Spiders, and were not being held back to be unleashed later in the story.

I have composed a full counter to every point you state in your original heirarchy thread and will hold it back as my final tilt in our Joust good Ser. Awaiting your reply.