Brotherhood Without Banners!

[Quellon]

My favorite brotherhood. They were the only good force in the War of the Five Kings, the only one not alligned with any kingdom or "king". Who do you think they represent, of real life guerillas? Could one guerilla in particular been the inspiration? Or another kind of force? Thoros of Myr and his ability to bring people back to life...he's supposed to be a Messiah-like figure, supposed to. But he isn't, because he doesn't feel like that. He doesn't take himself that seriously and that's one of the things I like about him. I don't wanna bring politics into this, but the BWB most remind me of a leftist guerilla-they fight for the people, people that live in the area where they also live and fight. And Thoros is a RED priest after all, hehe. I know it wasn't meant to have any connection to the Marxism but anyway...whatever. Well, I know many of you will object at me calling them the only good force but they were really-Robb Stark's Northmen weren't all that good really-the Karstarks were rather unsympathetic and still are, while the Umbers also have their black sheep. Not to mention the bloody Dustin's...grr. And let's not even mention THAT family that lives in Dreadfort, shall we? Robb himself made some crucial mistakes, so...he got killed anyway. Brotherhood still exists, although under a radically changed leadership. I really liked Beric as a character, shame he couldn't live longer.

[Curled Finger]

I read once that the BWB was loosely based upon Robin Hood.  During the WO5K they were agents of King Robert and exacted their hard justice in his name.   Thoros struck me more as an unlikely Red Priest party boy who had no faith in his faith.   He admits he had no idea the Last Kiss would resurrect Beric Dondarrion.   I wonder if it wasn't Thoros' devotion to Beric's justice that caused the rite to work?  

It's funny.   I think the Crannogmen are more guerrilla like.  

The BWB aren't really freedom fighters so much as the only protectors of the small folk.   Who else cares for them?   The BWB seems to have developed a vast network of underground support.   The Riverlands are a wreck.  The kind Edmure Tully has been replaced by the reviled Freys and frightening Lannisters.  No where else in the realm has havoc been wrought so thoroughly as in The Riverlands.  

I miss Beric too.   He was a true badass.  Though I doubt Lady Stoneheart is a badass she is something to the story.  Maybe she's just there to rid the land of Freys.  Maybe she's there for something else.  All I know for sure is that the BWB is everywhere and something big is coming.  

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

What did they even successfully do? Near as I can tell, all they managed to do is bring down Ser Gregor's wrath upon the smallfolk who tried to protect them.

To call them a force for good might be a stretch, too. By and large, they're just scum, hiding behind their newfound religion, having their murderous fun in the name of "justice". Their form of justice is a joke, even under Beric. Their mob justice was only somewhat curbed by Beric; in the case of the Hound, damn near every one of them wanted him dead just for being Joffrey's dog. Then, being found to be not guilty, they rob him. Apparently, they have no problem stealing from the "innocent", and most of them wouldn't have had any problem killing him, even after his trial. They'd already deemed him guilty, which made their actions "right".

"A trial first!" said Anguy. "Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that." He smiled. "Then he hangs them."

That could've just been a joke, but I doubt they'd ever let one of their victims go. Only Sandor, because he proved his innocence through battle. I seriously doubt anyone would be able to prove their innocence through words.

Then Beric dies, the veneer is stripped away, and their true colours shine through. Only Thoros seems to have any problem with what they're doing, but that's because he fooled himself into believing the lies, under Beric. Without their pretext of justice, we can see how they really are. Making jokes while murdering innocent Freys, everything with Brienne, Podrick and Ser Hyle. They do what they do because they enjoy it, not because they strive for justice. They're just murderers, not some force for justice, no matter how they dress it up.

They were a place for murderous outlaw scum to flock, to murder people without repercussion. Under Beric, they put on a show about justice, but under Stoneheart, they don't even bother. 

Some of them are decent people, and Beric seemed to be one. The Brotherhood is a perfect example of good intentions going bad; they're always caused more harm than good, to the people they're supposedly protecting, and I don't even know if they're still trying to help people. Doesn't look like it to me.

A final note; at this point, they've gone too far to go back into the fold. Upon capture, they have two choices. Death or the Wall. I think this sums up the Brotherhood pretty well:

In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. 

[Quellon]

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

What did they even successfully do? Near as I can tell, all they managed to do is bring down Ser Gregor's wrath upon the smallfolk who tried to protect them.

To call them a force for good might be a stretch, too. By and large, they're just scum, hiding behind their newfound religion, having their murderous fun in the name of "justice". Their form of justice is a joke, even under Beric. Their mob justice was only somewhat curbed by Beric; in the case of the Hound, damn near every one of them wanted him dead just for being Joffrey's dog. Then, being found to be not guilty, they rob him. Apparently, they have no problem stealing from the "innocent", and most of them wouldn't have had any problem killing him, even after his trial. They'd already deemed him guilty, which made their actions "right".

"A trial first!" said Anguy. "Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that." He smiled. "Then he hangs them."

That could've just been a joke, but I doubt they'd ever let one of their victims go. Only Sandor, because he proved his innocence through battle. I seriously doubt anyone would be able to prove their innocence through words.

Then Beric dies, the veneer is stripped away, and their true colours shine through. Only Thoros seems to have any problem with what they're doing, but that's because he fooled himself into believing the lies, under Beric. Without their pretext of justice, we can see how they really are. Making jokes while murdering innocent Freys, everything with Brienne, Podrick and Ser Hyle. They do what they do because they enjoy it, not because they strive for justice. They're just murderers, not some force for justice, no matter how they dress it up.

They were a place for murderous outlaw scum to flock, to murder people without repercussion. Under Beric, they put on a show about justice, but under Stoneheart, they don't even bother. 

Some of them are decent people, and Beric seemed to be one. The Brotherhood is a perfect example of good intentions going bad; they're always caused more harm than good, to the people they're supposedly protecting, and I don't even know if they're still trying to help people. Doesn't look like it to me.

A final note; at this point, they've gone too far to go back into the fold. Upon capture, they have two choices. Death or the Wall. I think this sums up the Brotherhood pretty well:

In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. 

I don't think so. They simply found themselves in a difficult situation and did what they could to survive. Yes, some of them were likely scum, but that can't be always avoided when you have a larger force of men who were once serving the king and now serve noone-the wilderness in some of them prevailed. And when you live in the wild, in uncertainty, you are likely to harden and get more brutal, because you have to. Beric and Thoros never really committed any crimes and I believe they just were trying to do what was right, to fight the Lannisters and their allies and liberate the smallfolk from their yoke.

[The Hoare]

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

"A trial first!" said Anguy. "Lord Beric always gives them a trial, you know that." He smiled. "Then he hangs them."

That could've just been a joke, but I doubt they'd ever let one of their victims go. Only Sandor, because he proved his innocence through battle. I seriously doubt anyone would be able to prove their innocence through words.

 

Because trial by combat is a acceptable form of justice in Westeros. Part of the andal traditions, and perharps first men too.

Anyway, quoting Thoros "War makes monsters of us all."

[rotting sea cow]

@cyberdirectorfreedom is not wrong, but oversimplifies the issue. The degradation of BwB from its original objective is not dissimilar of what we see in irregular armed militias or guerrillas groups.  Most of them started to fight great injustices but with time their own survival became more important than their original cause.

This doesn't mean that we must surrender the right to rebellion (even armed rebellion), but we must be aware of its dangers.

In another thread, I complained that a PoV in BwB would have given more light in this polemic topic. A missed opportunity for GRRM.

9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Near as I can tell, all they managed to do is bring down Ser Gregor's wrath upon the smallfolk who tried to protect them.

but this is wrong. The crimes of Gregor stand in the shoulders of him and Tywin Lannister who approved that terror campaign in the RL.  This campaign however brought even more people into the BwB. There are many parallels in the real world.

 

[Red Man Racey]

9 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Near as I can tell, all they managed to do is bring down Ser Gregor's wrath upon the smallfolk who tried to protect them.

I think you've got it backwards - the BwB was a continuation of Ser Beric's original mission to hunt down and bring to justice Ser Gregor because he was already delivering his wrath upon the smallfolk of the Riverlands.

[rotting sea cow]

15 hours ago, Quellon said:

My favorite brotherhood. They were the only good force in the War of the Five Kings, the only one not alligned with any kingdom or "king". Who do you think they represent, of real life guerillas? Could one guerilla in particular been the inspiration? Or another kind of force? Thoros of Myr and his ability to bring people back to life...

Thoros bringing back people to life will have a lot of consequences in the history of Westeros. There will likely a rise of R'hllorism in Westeros and I hope we get the foreshadowing of lot of religious conflicts after the timeline of the books.

Drawing a parallel with the real world, in case of guerrilla leaders like Sandino or Zapata people refused to believe they were dead and eyewitness accounts of them being seen alive and riding in distant places followed for many years after their deaths. In times were communications were poor, these persons rose to mystical figures and even the governments were hunting for them even after they killed them. It is not dissimilar with Lord Dondarrion, isn't?

 

[sweetsunray]

I too recall reading the BwB was partly inspired on the legend of Robin Hood. They do not start out as rebels, but their original goal is to capture war criminals as well as shelter and feed the smallfolk. They use guerilla tactics and created a large underground network and support from the smallfolk. They do not abandon this goal under LS, since they start an orphanage and hunt down the outlaws who sacked Saltpans under her. But once they have their large underground network, leadership changes and the group gains political goals that are anti-Lannister regime. 

As for the argument that they make it worse for the smallfolk, provoking Gregor: rubbish. Gregor was already commiting war crimes before the BwB, and the Tickler torturing people for gold shows that the hunt for Beric is no the sole reason why they kill, rape, torture and "enslave" smallfolk, and the method of burned earth was Tywin's order for Amory, Gregor and Vargo as a war tactic that had nothing to do with Beric. Tywin ordered it because he didn't believe he had anything worthwhile to trade for Jaime, so he decided to go even more ruthless. 

With regards the justice: reading between the lines during the romanticised perspective of the BwB it's clear their justice was always more a mob-justice ending with lynching rather than something even remotely like a "fair trial". The trial by combat between Sandor and Beric was the exception rather than the norm. It's not until Sandor calls them out on the piss-poor trial they're holding where the mob recites names of dead people he had nothing to do with personally (not as commander, not wielding the sword) that Beric is pushed into a moral corner and concedes to Sandor that he cannot be executed unless they have a tangible accusation against him by a witness, but further uncorroborated by evidence, which eventually leads to the demand of trial by combat. If Sandor hadn't been such a cynic and sceptic and so good with words, Sandor would have hanged with an absolute mockery of a trial. The words about Beric's trials before the BwB arrives with Arya at Hollow Hill is more like to be the overall truth with most of the men they executed. In contrast Merret's trial and Brienne's is actually backed up by more witnesses, evidence and/or confessions than Sandor's. There can be no doubt that Petyr Pimple made confessions like Merret did to save his life, naming Freys that helped out with the RW. The giant difference between the trials with LS and those of Sandor under Beric are witnessed through entirely opposing POVs. Arya's the accuser who wholeheartedly believes Sandor guilty, and for readers knowing that Sandor did this evil thing but abandoned his bad masters Beric's gesture to let Sandor go, it comes of as magnanymous. In the other two the POV of the trials is the accused. Hanging a man for knowing about the RW and trying to drink the Greatjon under the table seems quite a drastic punishment. And despite the convincing incriminating evidence we know Brienne had the best intentions. It's quite subervsively done by GRRM

[Quellon]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I too recall reading the BwB was partly inspired on the legend of Robin Hood. They do not start out as rebels, but their original goal is to capture war criminals as well as shelter and feed the smallfolk. They use guerilla tactics and created a large underground network and support from the smallfolk. They do not abandon this goal under LS, since they start an orphanage and hunt down the outlaws who sacked Saltpans under her. But once they have their large underground network, leadership changes and the group gains political goals that are anti-Lannister regime. 

As for the argument that they make it worse for the smallfolk, provoking Gregor: rubbish. Gregor was already commiting war crimes before the BwB, and the Tickler torturing people for gold shows that the hunt for Beric is no the sole reason why they kill, rape, torture and "enslave" smallfolk, and the method of burned earth was Tywin's order for Amory, Gregor and Vargo as a war tactic that had nothing to do with Beric. Tywin ordered it because he didn't believe he had anything worthwhile to trade for Jaime, so he decided to go even more ruthless. 

With regards the justice: reading between the lines during the romanticised perspective of the BwB it's clear their justice was always more a mob-justice ending with lynching rather than something even remotely like a "fair trial". The trial by combat between Sandor and Beric was the exception rather than the norm. It's not until Sandor calls them out on the piss-poor trial they're holding where the mob recites names of dead people he had nothing to do with personally (not as commander, not wielding the sword) that Beric is pushed into a moral corner and concedes to Sandor that he cannot be executed unless they have a tangible accusation against him by a witness, but further uncorroborated by evidence, which eventually leads to the demand of trial by combat. If Sandor hadn't been such a cynic and sceptic and so good with words, Sandor would have hanged with an absolute mockery of a trial. The words about Beric's trials before the BwB arrives with Arya at Hollow Hill is more like to be the overall truth with most of the men they executed. In contrast Merret's trial and Brienne's is actually backed up by more witnesses, evidence and/or confessions than Sandor's. There can be no doubt that Petyr Pimple made confessions like Merret did to save his life, naming Freys that helped out with the RW. The giant difference between the trials with LS and those of Sandor under Beric are witnessed through entirely opposing POVs. Arya's the accuser who wholeheartedly believes Sandor guilty, and for readers knowing that Sandor did this evil thing but abandoned his bad masters Beric's gesture to let Sandor go, it comes of as magnanymous. In the other two the POV of the trials is the accused. Hanging a man for knowing about the RW and trying to drink the Greatjon under the table seems quite a drastic punishment. And despite the convincing incriminating evidence we know Brienne had the best intentions. It's quite subervsively done by GRRM

Yes, I agree very much. They did not bring Gregor's wrath on anyone, it was Tywin's plan to purposedly weaken the Riverlands so they couldn't come to the aid of Stannis or Robb. BWB helped the smallfolk and noone can deny that. As I said, they were the only non-alligned force and that makes them good, they didn't fight to help some power-hungry arsehole come to power, no matter how much that arsehole thought he had the right to the throne. Stannis, Renly or Joffrey.