A strong king acts boldly

[sweetsunray]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think you are making too much of that cat incident. I just recently got reminded how common a practice it was over in the last century to drown young kittens you didn't want in your farm or your home. Animal cruelty is inevitably a part of the medieval environment Joffrey is living in. That doesn't mean every child has to cut open a cat to check on the kittens but it is also not necessarily a sign that means we have to be too concerned about.

Joffrey could very well have seen (and gotten over) the fact that cows, pigs, chickens, and many other animals are slaughtered in front of his eyes so that they have something to eat by the time he killed that cat. And while some people have kittens in Westeros (like Tommen) there would be a lot of half-wild cats everybody saw as a nuisance to be rid off, not as living creatures that deserve compassion and kindness.

Well, that reasoning would work if the cat incident was an isolated incident. We see it's not really the case with the other events. Shooting arrows at a cat in a throne room, forcing a younger brother to surrender his pet and make a jerkin out of it, Tommen trying to crawl inside himself whenever Joff .... [open ended] gives us a bigger picture, and Stannis's interpretative telling of the story comes off as an exception to what seems to be the rule.

Furthermore, Joffrey was almost exclusively raised in the Red Keep and would have little to no contact with farming practices. He would actually have witnessed little to no slaughter.

Cats are not a nuisance in a society that needs to get rid of rodents and keep them out of the stores.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole Sansa issue should be seen as something that developed from his humiliation at the hands of Arya in front of Sansa. That made him a laughingstock in the eyes of his future bride. Now, if Cersei and Robert had both pressed the children to make peace thereafter and if Cersei had not, presumably, been against the Stark marriage from the start (most likely in the wake of Ned's appointment as Hand she was against things could have cooled down thereafter.

Later on Sansa becomes the only Stark Joff can get his hands on after he executed Ned and could not get to Robb. It is hardly surprising that he continues to humiliate her.

Again that sounds all very reasonable, but isolates his behavior towards Sansa from other behavior towards his siblings where he attemps to inflict pain, humiliation or sorrow on.

[ravenous reader]

13 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

About the cat incident.  Does anyone else think there's something there to his animal cruely being focused on cats and he's a lion?  It's also cats that will be the victims of his awful crossbow practice.  In this incident, it's focused on a pregnant female cat and he runs to show his father the kittens.  Look at the kittens Robert!!!  I wonder if Joffrey, as stupid as he is, deep down knows something about his parentage and that's also a reason for resentment toward his parents.       

This is a fascinating comment, @Blue-Eyed Wolf (btw, I'm fond of blue-eyed wolves; I even have a whole line of thought around blue-eyed white lion star children..).  

I had never considered the symbolism, having always been so taken with the horrible nature of a child vivisecting a pregnant cat as a marker of serious psychological pathology in the child, which has an established scientific basis in the 'real world' and is never normal behavior (regardless of 'cultural relativity' and all that jazz, GRRM deliberately shows us that not only do Joffrey's other siblings not exhibit this aberrant behavior, despite having grown up under similar circumstances and sharing the same social norms, but moreover his brother Tommen is an animal lover, keeps pet cats in particular, and is upset when Joffrey kills his fawn).

So you're saying that on some level Joffrey had introjected, i.e. internalized, his father's resentment and hostility towards the Lannisters, in particular towards his own mother and 'uncle' Jaime; and that in order to gain his father's attention and approval -- I'm in agreement with sweetsunray and others that the father figure was the parent he missed and to whom he sought to appeal -- he therefore murdered a family of cats representing Lannisters (!) in order to please Robert on some symbolic level.  

Seen from this symbolic perspective, it also reveals a level of repressed self-hatred, which he projects outside himself onto the poor animal.  In fact, the turning of the self on or against the self is represented by the constant Lannister-infighting, all the family dramas, conflicts and shameful secrets played out over time.  Even the incest between Jaime and Cersei, of which Joffrey is the corrupt product ('lionspawn'?), can be interpreted in this light of too much self-reflexive 'selfness'.  Furthermore, the fact that they are twins makes it even more claustrophobic and eventually cat-astrophic (bad pun, I know...).  Most of us interpreting the various prophecies would agree, moreover, that Jaime is bound to be Cersei's 'valonqar' and their relationship will end in another Lannister kinslaying, just like the one committed by Tyrion vs. his father.  Definitely a long history of cats killing cats.

 Also, let's not forget that Joffrey's anger was directed at a female cat in particular, and one that had been having sex, or it would not have been pregnant -- so perhaps we might interpret the violence directed against the cat as Joffrey's hatred towards his own mother, and even go further to speculate whether he, like Bran, may have accidentally seen Jaime and Cersei having sex (the twins are given to having sex in unusual places outside the confines of the bedroom, after all, so it's not totally out of the question).  Having no doubt been exposed to the facts of life by watching cats mating in the courtyard and so on, Joffrey may have put two and two together.  Assuming Joffrey may have witnessed the twins in action or something to this effect (not a pretty sight for a child to process; see quote to follow), he may have interpreted them having sex as a betrayal of his father Robert -- which possibly became expressed by killing the pregnant cat as an act of vengeance on behalf of his father as the insulted party.  His cat-cuckolded father's champion, as it were!

ETA: As Joff is so taken with cat-on-cat violence, since it permeates his entire existence, that could also be the reason he is so tickled by the idea of 'sending a dog to kill a dog...' when Sandor makes the offer to kill Bran's wolf.  

Oh, and to a child, two adults having sex resembles fighting, so in the case of the Lannisters especially with Cersei moaning and squalling, a veritable 'cat fight'!

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Inside the room, a man and a woman were wrestling. They were both naked. Bran could not tell who they were. The man's back was to him, and his body screened the woman from view as he pushed her up against a wall.

There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide-eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there, because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. "Stop it," she said, "stop it, stop it. Oh, please …" But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast.

Bran saw her face. Her eyes were closed and her mouth was open, moaning. Her golden hair swung from side to side as her head moved back and forth, but still he recognized the queen.

...

Faces appeared in the window above him.

The queen. And now Bran recognized the man beside her. They looked as much alike as reflections in a mirror.

Finally, in light of the 'cat' symbolism, it's significant that Arya's 'waterdancing' training with Syrio involves catching cats.  Isn't that one of the first lessons?  I think it signifies foreshadowing of Arya avenging her family by taking out a few Lannisters, especially since most of the people marked for death in the 'litany of death prayer' she recites, listing all her enemies, are mostly Lannisters or Lannister lackeys.  It also puts an interesting spin on the lyrics of the following song:

Quote

And who are you, the proud lord said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat,
that's all the truth I know.

In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws,
And mine are long and sharp, my Lord,
as long and sharp as yours.

And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Castamere,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.

...

As a faceless man, warg, and skinchanger, Arya is arguably 'a cat of a different coat' (she even preferentially skinchanges cats!)  The line 'mine are long and sharp, my Lord, as long and sharp as yours' is chilling -- indeed, Arya has a long claw, just like her brother Jon -- it's called 'Needle'!

13 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh and Robert knows Joffrey isn't right in the head, but still wants to marry him to his best friend's daughter.        

Yeah I know Robert and Ned's attempts to arrange marriages are usually disasters -- neither of them is particularly emotionally intelligent enough, unfortunately; and anyway, in their time marriage was primarily a political alliance rather than a love union in which considerations of compatibility would be paramount.  The only Baratheon who should ever marry a Stark is Gendry with Arya respectively!  

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, that reasoning would work if the cat incident was an isolated incident. We see it's not really the case with the other events. Shooting arrows at a cat in a throne room, forcing a younger brother to surrender his pet and make a jerkin out of it, Tommen trying to crawl inside himself whenever Joff .... [open ended] gives us a bigger picture, and Stannis's interpretative telling of the story comes off as an exception to what seems to be the rule.

That is all true. But we really don't know where the gap between a psychopath in the making and a genuine adolescent bully is on the princely level Joff is being raised. He is always encouraged to do whatever the hell he wants, not just by Cersei (although most definitely by Cersei) but essentially by all the goons around him, especially Sandor Clegane. We get that from the very short conversation Tyrion overhears at Winterfell as well as Sandor's strong anti-Stark stance during the short quarrel with Robb in the training yard.

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Furthermore, Joffrey was almost exclusively raised in the Red Keep and would have little to no contact with farming practices. He would actually have witnessed little to no slaughter.

Only if we assume he always stayed inside the castle. Is that a likely scenario for as active a boy as Joff was? A prince who was the son of a king who liked hunting? I wasn't raised on a farm, either, but my grandfather liked fishing so I saw him killing fishes at a pretty early age when we visited him at the lake. And if the Red Keep is actually a proper medieval castle then there should be some places where there are at least some chickens and other smaller animals, perhaps even pigs. They wouldn't have cattle, though.

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Cats are not a nuisance in a society that needs to get rid of rodents and keep them out of the stores.

Sure, but they breed very quickly if there is enough food around, and thus they can become a nuisance pretty quickly. People wouldn't complain about them when there were a lot of mice and rat around, to be sure, but that would not always be the case. For instance, we can reasonably assume that cats and dogs both would be eaten pretty quickly in hard winters, even in KL.

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Again that sounds all very reasonable, but isolates his behavior towards Sansa from other behavior towards his siblings where he attemps to inflict pain, humiliation or sorrow on.

You have a point there. Unfortunately we have no way of ever finding out whether Joffrey had some redeeming qualities or whether he would have grown out of some of his bad habits if he had gotten a better/stabler role model, say, Ned or Tywin.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@ravenous reader

Another solid breakdown of Cersei's lying/manipulation. Isn't it fascinating how George gives us such small, yet damning hints at what our characters our doing? Great stuff. 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And yes, if we reassess our understanding of the convo in the OP between Joffrey-Tywin-Cersei, then it is far more likely, given the other conversations, that whenever Cersei says "Robert said something like it while kids overheard" we should seriously doubt that claim, and compare her claim with the evidence of her remarks made here and there.

Yes! Especially considering situations where the words are viewed as negative by the others in the room. "A strong king acts boldly" is criticized by Tywin. So of course Cersei will conveniently attribute this saying to deceased Robert. 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

He actually wants his father's approval, not hers, exactly because his father did not approve of him.

Great point. I'm going to nitpick a little here though... He does follow Mom's lesson (over Robert's) in the quote I provided earlier where he says, "My mother tells me that it isn’t fitting that a king should strike his wife. Ser Meryn." 

Now is this seeking his mother's approval or just taking advice? Could be both. But I certainly agree it is his father's approval he wants over his mothers.

 

ETA: This quote does occur after Robert is dead. Does Joff change his views towards his mother in any way after Robert's death?

[sweetsunray]

I like the way the conversation is going regarding the cat-incidents @Blue-Eyed Wolf and @ravenous reader

Yes, there's something to say about someone who otherwise has his mother wear constant reminders of all things Lannister, to basically torture a cat. With the wine cup he wants to hack off the wolf too. It does seem to denote an added layer of anger towards his mother. He can't prevent her from picking his clothes, but he can kill cats.

In that way we can interpret his wanting the fawn to wear it as a jerkin as him denying the Baratheon symbol to Tommen, and then putting it on as a skin. It could be him trying to identify himself with being a Baratheon, while denying Tommen that identity. We know he was cruel to Tommen in other ways, but not exactly what. Is it possible that Joffrey overheard a discussion or saw something between Cersei and Jaime shortly after Tommen's birth that made him believe that Tommen was a full Lannister? And fearing that he might be too, he projected it all on Tommen while trying to cling on to Baratheon? Joff shows a remarkable disinterest in Jaime's capture and imprisonment.

[The hairy bear]

Interesting theory.

The only problem I see with it is that Joffrey also embraced Lannister symbolisms such as using parting the stag and the lion as his banner, or calling his sword "Lion's Tooth".

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Interesting theory.

The only problem I see with it is that Joffrey also embraced Lannister symbolisms such as using parting the stag and the lion as his banner, or calling his sword "Lion's Tooth".

Wasn't that Cersei's idea? I could be remembering, but that sigil decision spoke massive volumes to me.

 

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Interesting theory.

The only problem I see with it is that Joffrey also embraced Lannister symbolisms such as using parting the stag and the lion as his banner, or calling his sword "Lion's Tooth".

Did Joff name that sword? Did Joff have free choice in his clothing? How much of it was Cersei pushing it onto him? He does not name the other two anything Lion either: Hearteater and Widow's Wail. Notice how the last sword was one with lion symbolism, and what does he call it? Widow's Wail! Who's the widow he knows personally? Cersei, his mother.

Cersei tries to push that Lannister wedding cloak onto Tommen too, but Olenna puts a stop to it. The previous time with Joff's wedding though Tywin was still around not to try and provoke him. I'll betcha it was Cersei who had all her arms sowed on every clothing item. And for all we know Lion's Tooth was given to him as a gift already named.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

So you're saying that on some level Joffrey had introjected, i.e. internalized, his father's resentment and hostility towards the Lannisters, in particular towards his own mother and 'uncle' Jaime; and that in order to gain his father's attention and approval -- I'm in agreement with sweetsunray and others that the father figure was the parent he missed and to whom he sought to appeal -- he therefore murdered a family of cats representing Lannisters (!) in order to please Robert on some symbolic level.  

@Blue-Eyed Wolf

This is awesome! It makes a lot of sense given what Joff probably sees in the dynamics between Robert and Jaime/Tywin/Cersei. What better way to get approval from your                         shit-talking-of-lions father than by cutting open the nearest thing to a lion at your desposal.

I'm guessing Joff was shocked by Robert's response. He probably thought he would get a high five!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

34 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Interesting theory.

The only problem I see with it is that Joffrey also embraced Lannister symbolisms such as using parting the stag and the lion as his banner, or calling his sword "Lion's Tooth".

Even if Joffrey did embrace some Lannister symbolism would that change possible internalization he made in the cat incident? I could see Joff displaying Lannister pride externally yet internally be so approval/attention seeking to his father that this is a possibility. 

(I still have a feeling that any Lannister pride was heavily influenced by Cersei)

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

This is a fascinating comment, @Blue-Eyed Wolf (btw, I'm fond of blue-eyed wolves; I even have a whole line of thought around blue-eyed white lion star children..).  

 Thank you.  Send me a link if you got one.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

So you're saying that on some level Joffrey had introjected, i.e. internalized, his father's resentment and hostility towards the Lannisters, in particular towards his own mother and 'uncle' Jaime; and that in order to gain his father's attention and approval

Yes, and you honestly articulated it all way better than me.     

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Also, let's not forget that Joffrey's anger was directed at a female cat in particular, and one that had been having sex, or it would not have been pregnant -- so perhaps we might interpret the violence directed against the cat as Joffrey's hatred towards his own mother, and even go further to speculate whether he, like Bran, may have accidentally seen Jaime and Cersei having sex (the twins are given to having sex in unusual places outside the confines of the bedroom, after all, so it's not totally out of the question).  Having no doubt been exposed to the facts of life by watching cats mating in the courtyard and so on, Joffrey may have put two and two together.

This honestly seems to be the worst kept secret at times.  It seems there were always some rumors.  Servants do notice things and they do talk, but likely fear of Tywin Lannister reprisal kept it whispers to a minimum.  We can see at the bread riots though, this is no secret anymore.  So if commoners are aware of the truth, even Joffrey could have been for some time:

Quote

A tumult of sound drowned his last words, a rolling thunder of rage and fear and hatred that engulfed them from all sides. "Bastard!" someone screamed at Joffrey, "bastard monster." Other voices flung calls of "Whore" and "Brotherfucker" at the queen,

 It's very possible Joffrey deep down knew the truth he was an abomination, so to distance himself from his makers he made efforts to align himself further with his "father."  The question also is how much did Robert know or how much did he even want to know?  He's used to being the one doing the stepping out, but to be cuckholded... by his wife's brother... one of his kingsguard... right under his nose... with their offspring his heirs. To even punish Cersei or Jaime would be to publically admit this was true!   If Robert struck Joffrey as hard has he is said to have, it could have been a reaction to being faced with a beyond humiliating truth, not to just being disgusted by the kittens.  Remember, Ned does fear Robert killing the children if the secret is brought to light.  That's not a big stretch to say he could also strike Joffrey that hard.  If Joffrey could have plausibly put two-and-two together and this doesn't appear to be a well-kept secret anyway, could Joffrey also have said anything incriminating while showing him the kittens?  It could be shocking enough to provoke a violent reaction out of Robert.  We learned from the throne room scene with Ned pleading for Lady's life in the name of the love Robert had for him and Lyanna, that Robert does prefer ease over having to deal with difficult subjects.  As king he could have stopped Lady from being killed, but he turned his back on the whole thing just to avoid being haranged by Cersei.  Acknowledging the whole truth would shatter Robert's ego and force him to act on something he probably would rather pretend didn't exist.  This could also account for why Robert kept such a distance from even his good kids, Tommen and Myrcella.

On the subject of Joffrey being a witness to sex act early on and developing resentment toward females because of his mother, there could be another clue to that.  He is about 12 at the beginning of the story, so not unusual at that age that he would know what sex was.  I had said before his sadist nature turned sexual when Sansa started developing more, but I think I was wrong about that.  On the road to KL, Joffrey and Sansa go off on their own in her POV for a little "date."  Joffrey insists she leave her wolf behind and he leaves his own bodyguard, the Hound, behind.  During that time, Sansa is given alcohol that she isn't used to at her young age.  Sansa is so innocent she just percieves drinking wine as a grown-up thing to do, but the whole thing has a date-rape vibe where Joffrey is trying to ply her by getting her tipsy.  It then makes a lot of sense why Joffrey didn't allow the Hound to follow them.  If Arya and Mycah hadn't arrived on the scene, the whole plot could have been changed to us discussing a sexual assault on his betrothed and daughter of the Hand of the King.  Of course, he doesn't need to have issues with his mother to commit an assault himself, but it's probably there.  If he already had made connections between sex, his abominable parentage, and resentment toward his mother in particular, he can project that on to females in general being false and deserving of suffering.  Because she's his future wife, he can play the role of Robert and punish Sansa (as Cersei), further distancing himself from his mother and toward his father.  I hope that made sense.          

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Finally, in light of the 'cat' symbolism, it's significant that Arya's 'waterdancing' training with Syrio involves catching cats.  Isn't that one of the first lessons?  I think it signifies foreshadowing of Arya avenging her family by taking out a few Lannisters, especially since most of the people marked for death in the 'litany of death prayer' she recites, listing all her enemies, are mostly Lannisters or Lannister lackeys.  It also puts an interesting spin on the lyrics of the following song

This is an awesome catch.  How fitting the Rains of Castamere could be turned right back on the Lannisters themselves!  

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 The only Baratheon who should ever marry a Stark is Gendry and Arya respectively!  

Amen!   

      

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It could be him trying to identify himself with being a Baratheon, while denying Tommen that identity. We know he was cruel to Tommen in other ways, but not exactly what. Is it possible that Joffrey overheard a discussion or saw something between Cersei and Jaime shortly after Tommen's birth that made him believe that Tommen was a full Lannister? And fearing that he might be too, he projected it all on Tommen while trying to cling on to Baratheon? Joff shows a remarkable disinterest in Jaime's capture and imprisonment.

I think there's lots of attempts to distance himself from the Lannister side and move himself further to the Baratheon.  That does make sense to kill the fawn, not as aggression against his father, but to deny Tommen a Baratheon identity.  When he's reminded by Tyrion in the bread riots he has to care about Sansa because her safety as a hostage is directly linked to Jaime's safety as a hostage, Joffrey does not care one bit about either.  Tyrion reads this as stupidity and short-sightedness, while that may be, he still enjoys torturing Sansa anyway regardless of what it could mean for Jaime's fate or maybe partly because some harm might come to Jaime because of it?  Another torture by proxy scenario.    

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Tyrion reads this as stupidity and short-sightedness, while that may be, he still enjoys torturing Sansa anyway regardless of what it could mean for Jaime's fate or maybe partly because some harm might come to Jaime because of it?  Another torture by proxy scenario.   

Exactly! He doesn't care about Jaime, the one his "weak mother" is so anxious about. Does he hope to provoke Robb into killing Jaime?

[sweetsunray]

35 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

This is an awesome catch.  How fitting the Rains of Castamere could be turned right back on the Lannisters themselves!

I agree that the Rains of Castamere have a meaning in relation to Arya: she hears it sung outside the Twins. I had a 9-cat-lives thread in relation to Arya, and Rains of Castamere 'cat in a different skin' stuff reveberated in there too.

 

41 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

On the subject of Joffrey being a witness to sex act early on and developing resentment toward females because of his mother, there could be another clue to that.  He is about 12 at the beginning of the story, so not unusual at that age that he would know what sex was.  I had said before his sadist nature turned sexual when Sansa started developing more, but I think I was wrong about that.  On the road to KL, Joffrey and Sansa go off on their own in her POV for a little "date."  Joffrey insists she leave her wolf behind and he leaves his own bodyguard, the Hound, behind.  During that time, Sansa is given alcohol that she isn't used to at her young age.  Sansa is so innocent she just percieves drinking wine as a grown-up thing to do, but the whole thing has a date-rape vibe where Joffrey is trying to ply her by getting her tipsy.  It then makes a lot of sense why Joffrey didn't allow the Hound to follow them.  If Arya and Mycah hadn't arrived on the scene, the whole plot could have been changed to us discussing a sexual assault on his betrothed and daughter of the Hand of the King.  Of course, he doesn't need to have issues with his mother to commit an assault himself, but it's probably there.  If he already had made connections between sex, his abominable parentage, and resentment toward his mother in particular, he can project that on to females in general being false and deserving of suffering.  Because she's his future wife, he can play the role of Robert and punish Sansa (as Cersei), further distancing himself from his mother and toward his father.  I hope that made sense.      

Honestly, that "date" has some weird vibe about it that Sansa seems quite oblivious too. Yep, transference and proxy-treatment is not uncommon with a hatred or resentment towards a parent, exactly because the child, even when an adult, is often unable to openly betray it to their parent. Joffrey does start to show it more directly towards Cersei once he's king. I'm not sure that Cersei was safe from Joffrey in the next 5 years, if what we suspect is true.

[sweetsunray]

Well going into "who put the notion into Joffrey's head it would be a mercy to kill Bran" territory... I'd say it was indeed Cersei.

To Jaime she comes up with that "Robert said it drunkely in front of the kids". But in aGoT we have Cersei speaking right in front of Tommen and Myrcella at breakfast that the Northern gods are cruel to let the child linger in pain; that it's no mercy that Bran should live. And just prior to that Tyrion inquired whether Robert is still at bed, with Cersei informing Tyrion that Robert did not sleep at all, is with Ned Stark and has taken their sorrow deep to heart, and that's on the 4th day. So, Robert sounds very much have been staying sober and be at Ned's and Catelyn's side all that time so far, and likely did the same thing most of the time after that.

Meanwhile Tyrion also had his confrontation already with Joffrey, ordering him to grovel for Ned and Catelyn. At the time Joffrey expressed belief that Bran is dying. After Tyrion embarrasses him, he runs off (but to where?) Sandor tells Tyrion the boy will remember that. Joffrey said he would tell "his mother".

Cersei leaves the breakfast table with Tommen and Myrcella when Tyrion mentions whores. What would have happened off-page after she left from breakfast? With her children in tow, Cersei would have gone to her rooms in a bad mood over Tyrion on the one hand and Bran surviving, not knowing what he might be saying if he were to wake up, and no doubt Joffrey would be there waiting to complain about what Tyrion did to him, and all that over a boy who was dying anyway... Or Myrcella (or Tommen) see Joffrey and blurt happily that Bran is going to live, provoking Cersei into repeating how it's cruel and not a mercy.

Cue-in Joffrey: he must have heard how Robert is a merciful king. So he does order it to emulate Robert. The idea however was given to him not by Robert, but Cersei.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Cue-in Joffrey: he must have heard how Robert is a merciful king. So he does order it to emulate Robert. The idea however was given to him not by Robert, but Cersei.

But Cersei was probably just thinking out loud, not that she actually intended Joffrey to take care of Bran on her behalf?  Because even Jaime acknowledges Cersei would not have been so sloppy as to hire that particular catspaw with that dagger.  So then was she likely thinking of her own scheme to get rid of Bran and Joffrey just happened to beat her to the punch?  By then, the Starks would have been on high alert making it impossible to act on the sly.   

Quote

If truth be told, Jaime had come to rue heaving Brandon Stark out that window. Cersei had given him no end of grief afterward, when the boy refused to die. "He was seven, Jaime," she'd berated him. "Even if he understood what he saw, we should have been able to frighten him into silence."

Now, as you've shown, we have plenty of reason to doubt what Cersei says out loud even to her family.  She does try to distance herself from responsibility.  So Cersei was going to rely on having a hard talk with the boy to keep him quiet about the incest, but she'd have all of Robert's bastards regardless of age she could find murdered to keep the evidence of her incest a secret?  It's not like any of the bastards actually saw anything or knew anything about the incest, it was just that they showed a pattern of all Robert's children having black hair.  Cersei clearly has no issue with killing children if they could expose her, but seven year old Bran they should have just given a talking to?  Jaime can take this to mean he shouldn't have pushed him out the window to begin with, but to Cersei it seems like her issue is that he didn't die.  And now that he'll live, he can talk about the attempted murder and the incest.             

On 1/23/2017 at 3:45 PM, sweetsunray said:

Exactly! He doesn't care about Jaime, the one his "weak mother" is so anxious about. Does he hope to provoke Robb into killing Jaime?

I think this maybe confirms it....

Quote

 "I'd shoot you too, but if I do Mother says they'd kill my uncle Jaime. Instead you'll just be punished and we'll send word to your brother about what will happen to you if he doesn't yield. Dog, hit her."

Robb isn't likely to yield if he's been winning battle after battle and Joffrey is hostile (definitely not concerned) to Jaime for losing and getting captured.  He can't shoot Sansa, so he'll do the next best thing.  Beat her and send word to her brother.  Robb doesn't need a letter to know Sansa is in a hostage situation or what could happen to her.  Executing a hostage is a one-time-use weapon and will only result in Jaime getting killed. If he truly wanted this to be about yielding, he could negotiate yielding over a prisoner exchange, but otherwise both sides are kind of at an impasse.  They both gain nothing and lose a family member and the war continues.  The only reason to send a descriptive letter is to be provacative. If Robb is provoked and kills Jaime, all the better because he can then freely kill Sansa without his mother interfering. 

[HaeSuse]

On 1/21/2017 at 3:06 PM, sweetsunray said:

As children we had this saying "the one who smells it first, did it!"

If that was the saying, it would never have been the saying. "He who smelt it dealt it", is so much better.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

If that was the saying, it would never have been the saying. "He who smelt it dealt it", is so much better.

I translated from the Dutch version without trying to make it rhime. DIdn't know there was an English version. Now I know

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

If that was the saying, it would never have been the saying. "He who smelt it dealt it", is so much better.

HAH! We said that too because we were hilariously disgusting children. 

We also said , " a fox smells his own hole." Hole as in den, but do with it what you will. 

Sorry to derail your thread with off topic quips, @sweetsunray It won't happen again.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So Cersei was going to rely on having a hard talk with the boy to keep him quiet about the incest, but she'd have all of Robert's bastards regardless of age she could find murdered to keep the evidence of her incest a secret?  It's not like any of the bastards actually saw anything or knew anything about the incest, it was just that they showed a pattern of all Robert's children having black hair.  Cersei clearly has no issue with killing children if they could expose her, but seven year old Bran they should have just given a talking to?

We have to remember that killing Robert's bastards is not the same as killing Bran Stark, son of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and Hand of the King.