SaltThroneHeir

The perfumed seneschal

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Hi there! 

First of all, I have to say that it is my first post on this amazing forum, and I'm glad to join you all ;)

Please excuse my English (since I'm a French fan from West indies) 

My question is about our dear Varys. Could it be him the famous perfumed seneschal ?  

Don't know if you talked about this theory before, but that really hit my mind during second reading, since a seneschal is someone who actively serve a king or a Lord (Aegon in this case) and the guy is known to be very perfumed. 

Dany should indeed beware of him, because he's actually working for Aegon to finally sit and the Iron throne.  

Am I completely late, or... What do you guys think about that? 

I have to add that Aegon is definitely one of my favorite characters, so I hope he's not fake x) 

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Welcome to the forum. It could be a possibility. Prophecy is a dangerous woman indeed. So it is hard to say who the perfumed senetial is...

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I think there's a lot of support for it being the ship Jorah and Tyrion took from Volantis. The red priest translated its name to Tyrion as the "Fragrant Steward" which is a synonymous phrase to "Perfumed Seneschal". 

This is a bit on the nose for some readers, though, but to me it fits with the rest of Quaithe's warnings about the various people headed Dany's way.

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1 hour ago, Smirking Knight said:

I think there's a lot of support for it being the ship Jorah and Tyrion took from Volantis

I've been thinking about that option aswell, but didn't understood the point of it. IMO, it seems pretty obvious that Tyrion wants the good for Dany. Or maybe the warning is about the red priest (who was on the ship) and (the great !) Victarion ?

Another option could be that Quaithe is actually an antagonist... Since she wants Dany to beware of potential friends ?

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Another alternative is that Quaithe, while perhaps not an antagonist, does have her own agenda for Dany (getting her to Asshai for something something dragon magic something?) and for that reason is trying to keep her away from those who would lead her back West before she goes East. 

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Good point.

Some people will be really disappointed if she follows that way, though, but it could indeed add great stuff to that story. 

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On 3/10/2017 at 2:38 PM, Smirking Knight said:

I think there's a lot of support for it being the ship Jorah and Tyrion took from Volantis. The red priest translated its name to Tyrion as the "Fragrant Steward" which is a synonymous phrase to "Perfumed Seneschal". 

This is a bit on the nose for some readers, though, but to me it fits with the rest of Quaithe's warnings about the various people headed Dany's way.

Agreed. There was already some misdirection in Dany's POV when she suspects one of her own courtiers, and I think we're supposed to have Varys in mind, too. By the time the Stinky Steward is mentioned, it's remote enough plot-wise that it's believable as the culprit. 

Bigger question is why Dany needs to beware of it. The ship was anandoned at sea, so unless it washes up with the missing fire priest clinging to it, the prophecy must refer to Jorah or Tyrion. I suspect it's Jorah and his grudges. Will he kill Hizdar? Maybe try something against Danaerys herself?

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I don't think the warning about the Perfumed Seneschal will relate to Moqorro. She separately warns Dany about "Kraken and Dark Flame" and Victarian's crew refer to Moqorro as "Black Flame," so to me it definitely reads as a warning about Jorah and Tyrion. Jorah definitely has the potential to mess something up - perhaps he stumbles into some delicate alliance or negotiation and solves it with a sword. I could see him getting into it with Daario, Victarian, or Hizdar if he thinks they're being untoward with Dany. 

My money is on Tryion, though, because even if we see him as a relatively positive protagonist, he definitely will seek to use Dany to his own ends, just like everyone else headed into the Meereenese Knot. Above all else, Quaithe seems to be trying to extract Dany from the situation and from all of the petitioners headed her way. 

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I hadn't thought of the boat being the Perfumed Seneschal! Great catch! I already had the feeling it couldn't be Reznak (who Dany thinks) or Varys (who the reader is bound to think), so this third option makes sense. I think it's warning her for all the people on that boat, Tyrion, Jorah ánd Moqorro. (Penny is also on the boat, but I don't see how she could be dangerous.)

@SaltThroneHeir You said ' IMO, it seems pretty obvious that Tyrion wants the good for Dany.' Why is that? In my opinion Tyrion doesn't have Dany's best interest in mind (at least in the books), and is motivated by his own desire for vengeance and power.

 

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A lot of food for thought in this thread.  I have to admit I am not very good at deciphering predictions.  I found the chapter on the House of the Undying almost unreadable but I guess that is due to my lack of patience.  In fact this forum has thrown more light my way re predictions that reading them myself by far.

The warnings about the mummer's dragon, the lion, kraken etc seems almost too literal to be true in terms of identifying people who are travelling to her.  It is yet to be known though what Aegon's true intentions re Dany are; he could try to marry her or take the throne for himself.  He is young, possibly unaware of his real origins.  If Quaithe is telling it true, Aegon is not Elia's child but then again she could be either lying or mistaken.  Either way, he is very young and under the influence of various people such as Jon Con, Illyrio, Varys... we don't even know for a fact who Lemore is, so there are a lot of wild cards up in the air.  At this moment in time Aegon, wisely or otherwise has started his conquest campaign in Westeros and personally I don't think he will let her join him in the throne if he can take it without her help. However, with her dragons etc he may have no choice but to consider that possibility.  So hard to say whether he is friend or foe to her.  As for Victarion, it would appear that as long as she is happy to marry him and share the Iron Throne he is happy to help her.  For his own ends, sure, but not the most immediate foe IMHO.  Tyrion is being instrumental in getting Victarion to win against Yunkai by turning the Second Sons to his side.  Okay, Tyrion is complex and so are his motives.  At present, although already coming out of it a bit he is obsessed with revenge.  However that plot-wise cannot stay that way till the end.  He surely is not stupid and he knows only too well just how obsessive revenge meant the end for Oberyn plus time heals.  Sure, if he gets the opportunity he would not hesitate to overthrow Cersei or something if she happens to be sitting on the throne at the time, or even kill her but despite all his dark thoughts when at rock bottom I don't think he would sacrifice Tommen or Myrcella.  Of course, despite his rift with Jaime, his brother was good to him as a child and he knows it, so maybe if Dany has him executed or something he could turn on her.  Still, at this moment in time he is working, unbeknown to her, in Dany's favour and they appear to have a common goal, so no reason for him to betray her just yet...

Now, the nobility in Essos are a different kettle of fish IMHO.  The only motivation I can find for them to support Dany is that they were powerless against her dragons, Unsullied etc.  Not saying that they are all evil or something but they grew up with slavery, for them it is totally normal, not something abhorrent necessarily and their wealth rest on that, but then again that is no secret to anyone and no need for a prophecy to that effect.

I have to admit as much as mistrust people like Varys, Quaithe I may mistrust even more.  She hides behind a mask, symbolic or not.  I never got a good gut instinct with her at all.  I am not saying her intentions are evil or dead set against Dany but definitely she serves someone with a bigger agenda.  For now I am going to go with the poster above who said that her "warnings" may be an attempt to manipulate Dany against going for the Iron Throne.  Could turn out that going to Westeros leads to her death or something, hence her warning would be correct but I think there has to be more to Quaithe than meets the eye.  She seems as mysterious and in my humble view dangerous as the Faceless Men, the Undying, maybe even the bank of Braavos.  On the other hand, truth be told, fascinating as it is, Essos is a mysterious place I actively mistrust lol

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GRRM writes his prophecies in a way that is open for multiple interpretations. And the more he's noticed that fans love to speculate and dissect them, the more red herrings he's thrown in there for fun.

Varys and Reznak mo Reznak are the two most obvious candidates, but the Salaesori Qhoran is also a literal perfumed seneschal heading her way. Why exactly should she beware this ship, though? The only people of note aboard were Moqorro and Tyrion, and Quaithe already talks about them specifically as Dark Flame and Lion. So it can't be the ship.
The way she words the prophecy, she puts this seneschal at the very end. "Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal" go together, so it's a sort of big bad or final danger she has to look out for. Why should she remember the Undying? Well, they were a group of people who lured her into a trap only to turn on her and reveal their true forms. They were a sort of Wizard of Oz deal, a mirage hiding the true culprit(s) behind the curtain. A group of frauds who wanted to steal her power for themselves. 

Quaithe is trying to warn her about a fake person, a false character, trying to cheat her or use her again like the Undying did. The only perfumed seneschal who fits this bill, I think, is Varys. 

Reznak is a red herring, and a bad one at that. He's incredibly obvious and even Daenerys suspects him; it's not him. The ship is also a red herring, albeit a more subtle one. Varys is the one who has been manipulating and using Dany since the very first book. If we look at the big picture, the biggest "antagonists" in Daenerys' whole story are Varys and Illyrio. Her biggest threats in the future. And even though Varys seems to have his hopes pinned on Aegon, we still don't know what his current plans for Daenerys are. He could very well be trying to steal her power or dragons in some way. In fact, he's already trying to steal her throne away. Just how the Undying were trying to steal her strength, I believe Varys will try to do the same. 

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12 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

GRRM writes his prophecies in a way that is open for multiple interpretations. And the more he's noticed that fans love to speculate and dissect them, the more red herrings he's thrown in there for fun.

Varys and Reznak mo Reznak are the two most obvious candidates, but the Salaesori Qhoran is also a literal perfumed seneschal heading her way. Why exactly should she beware this ship, though? The only people of note aboard were Moqorro and Tyrion, and Quaithe already talks about them specifically as Dark Flame and Lion. So it can't be the ship.
The way she words the prophecy, she puts this seneschal at the very end. "Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal" go together, so it's a sort of big bad or final danger she has to look out for. Why should she remember the Undying? Well, they were a group of people who lured her into a trap only to turn on her and reveal their true forms. They were a sort of Wizard of Oz deal, a mirage hiding the true culprit(s) behind the curtain. A group of frauds who wanted to steal her power for themselves. 

Quaithe is trying to warn her about a fake person, a false character, trying to cheat her or use her again like the Undying did. The only perfumed seneschal who fits this bill, I think, is Varys. 

Reznak is a red herring, and a bad one at that. He's incredibly obvious and even Daenerys suspects him; it's not him. The ship is also a red herring, albeit a more subtle one. Varys is the one who has been manipulating and using Dany since the very first book. If we look at the big picture, the biggest "antagonists" in Daenerys' whole story are Varys and Illyrio. Her biggest threats in the future. And even though Varys seems to have his hopes pinned on Aegon, we still don't know what his current plans for Daenerys are. He could very well be trying to steal her power or dragons in some way. In fact, he's already trying to steal her throne away. Just how the Undying were trying to steal her strength, I believe Varys will try to do the same. 

Yes, Varys is definitely someone hard to trust but the thing is everyone knows that, especially Dany so I wonder why the "warning" is really necessary for her or for the readers.  I have to admit that I endorse the theory that Aegon is Illyrio's son hence I think Illyrio is the "betrayal for blood."  It is entirely plausible that others may be or later on become a threat to Dany.  At the moment she still mistrust anyone who took Robert's side, understandably but if she hopes to get the seven kingdoms she is going to need those families.  The whole point of the theme "game of thrones" is that everyone is in it for themselves to a greater or lesser extend so I guess not trusting anyone would be the way forward, bar for the reality that even living, never mind ruling like that is impossible.

Out of all the characters' true motivations, Varys' are probably the ones that intrigue me the most.  We know, as Arya overheard very early in the story and from Tyrion's chapters shortly after he was exhiled, that him and Illyrio are in cahoots.  Still there is got to me more to it than that.  The Golden Company are clear Blackfyre supporters whereas Tyrion is just now about to enlist the Second Sons to Dany's cause and Tyrion was pretty agreesively head-hunted by Varys.  (It seems obvious to me that he had a plan for him in Essos when he first help convict him and them rescued him).  He also mentioned Dany as a destination but ensure that he came across Aegon and his cronies first...)  Varys had a plan for a Tyrion role must, knowingly or not, play.

Given her dragons and superior military force unless an allegiance between her and Aegon is successful the odds seem on her favour.  It wouldn't surprise me if Varys is simply hedging his bets (backing Aegon as far as Illyrio is concerned, but Dany she she happens to win) if an allegiance or marriage between the two doesn't work out or if he is fake and is discovered.  My bet is that Varys wanted to see Tyrion's opinion re whether he is fake or not. Not that it matters a huge deal as "power resides where people believe it resides," but that is the thing "where do clever people think it resides?"  Tyrion of course had, certainly at the time his own agenda.  He told it true in that the Seven Kingdoms are at present more unstable than ever and Aegon could prove useful, if not taking the throne from the Lannisters at least giving them grief, so he egged him to go to the Storm Lands.  I am sure that Aegon will sit on the IT for a time but that it won't last.  If he was meant to be end game he would have to be in the show...  I reckon Varys either prefers a full Targ to a Blackfyre or doesn't put much stock on Aegon's long term chances hence he sent Tyrion in Dany's way.  Dany is the best hope Tyrion has to get revenge/power back in Westeros so I don't see him as a huge candidate for betraying her.  I guess it is possible that Varys is planning to neutralise Dany to make way for Aegon's sole rule but this seems simplistic for a complex mind like his.  The whole elaborated plot to get Tyrion involved sounds to me almost as if he wants confirmation from a third party whose intelligence he trust that backing Dany is their best bet, hence I am almost convinced that he is double playing Illyrio and withdraw his favour for Aegon in favour of Dany unless both candidates share the power.  This of course would mean that, if I am correct, he is not the betrayer in this instance.

Still, we have the question as to why was Illyrio helping Dany and Viserys when they were kids in hidding?  If he wants his son on the Throne, surely Viserys especially was a complication.  Fair enough, he didn't expect her to survive the Dothraki but why potentially arm Viserys with an army???  The only explanation I can find is that the existence of legitimate Targ heirs could pave the path for other possible Targ survivors existence (in the minds of noble and common people alike).  If this is the case he would try to either ensure that there is a Dany/Aegon marriage or at least allegiance or that she is neutralised.  Not sure about the perfume seneschal description applying to Illyrio but on the other hand, other than the super obvious people I just can't think who this will turn out to be though...

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@Morgana Lannister
Well Dany doesn't know Varys, that's the thing. I think the most that she's been told about him came from Jorah. She's vaguely aware of a spymaster in King's Landing and she knows he's called "The Spider", but that's about it. She has no idea that this man has been indirectly influencing her life for a while now, much less that he's been working with Illyrio. Varys has never really registered on her radar, thus the warning is apt.

Also don't forget that Illyrio's (and by extension Varys') original plan was for Aegon to marry Daenerys. The perfumed seneschal was gonna trick her into marrying a Blackfyre pretender who's trying to steal her dragons and her throne, I'd say that's something to look out for. The only reason Aegon turned back west instead was cause Tyrion got inside his head. And personally, I think that's ANOTHER thing that backfired on Illyrio and Varys (much like her eggs hatching). I think Varys truly appreciated Tyrion's wit and thought he'd make a wonderful adviser to Aegon and Dany, but never imagined his advise would be to attack so soon. 

Or maybe that's something Varys was planning all along, I dunno. Everything gets convoluted when that hairless, giggling fuck is involved. god I love 'em

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17 hours ago, Renly's Banana said:

@Morgana Lannister
Well Dany doesn't know Varys, that's the thing. I think the most that she's been told about him came from Jorah. She's vaguely aware of a spymaster in King's Landing and she knows he's called "The Spider", but that's about it. She has no idea that this man has been indirectly influencing her life for a while now, much less that he's been working with Illyrio. Varys has never really registered on her radar, thus the warning is apt.

Also don't forget that Illyrio's (and by extension Varys') original plan was for Aegon to marry Daenerys. The perfumed seneschal was gonna trick her into marrying a Blackfyre pretender who's trying to steal her dragons and her throne, I'd say that's something to look out for. The only reason Aegon turned back west instead was cause Tyrion got inside his head. And personally, I think that's ANOTHER thing that backfired on Illyrio and Varys (much like her eggs hatching). I think Varys truly appreciated Tyrion's wit and thought he'd make a wonderful adviser to Aegon and Dany, but never imagined his advise would be to attack so soon. 

Or maybe that's something Varys was planning all along, I dunno. Everything gets convoluted when that hairless, giggling fuck is involved. god I love 'em

Yes, you are right, I keep forgetting basic things so you are right that the warning would not be unnecessary.

Indeed Tyrion planted the idea in Aegon's head and that was for his own ends.  Now, I don't reckon Varys suggested that to him but maybe he considered it possible that Tyrion may do something on those lines.  I am kind of convinced that Varys intended to "rescue" Tyrion as a means to "recruit" him.  On first impressions it sounds as if he was actually recruiting him for Aegon's team.  Yet, I don't think it would have been difficult for Varys to figure out that for one thing Jon Connington and him were very unlikely to get alone, not less due to the fact that they would be competing for the position of top advisor even if their personalities hadn't been so much at odds.  I guess I do like twists and I find it a little straight forward that Varys is working for Aegon without another hidden agenda but maybe I am over complicating the plot and yes I agree that he is terribly difficult to figure out.  Can't wait to see if my twist comes to pass or not lol

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On 3/10/2017 at 6:02 PM, Smirking Knight said:

Another alternative is that Quaithe, while perhaps not an antagonist, does have her own agenda for Dany (getting her to Asshai for something something dragon magic something?) and for that reason is trying to keep her away from those who would lead her back West before she goes East. 

"...  to reach the west you must go east."

 

She ain't never never never ever gettin' to Westeros. :D

 

Unless she goes so far east that she circles the globe and comes in on the Oldtown, Highgarden, Casterly Rock/Lannisport side.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

There is an argument against the Selaesori Qhoran being Quaithe's 'perfumed seneschal':

Griff and Young Griff are not on their way to Dany anymore at the time that Tyrion and Moqoro board the Selaesori Qhoran bound for Dany!

***

The details if you want them:

At the time of Quaithe giving this 'prophecy' to Dany seemingly all the people Quaithe mentions are presently on their way to Dany:

To recount:

The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare. And after her the others: Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

- burning glass candles: yes happening, we have confirmation from the Citadel

- pale mare: yes, sick refugees are on their way to Meereen

- kraken and dark flame: yes, Victarion (or Euron) and Moqoro are on their way

- lion and griffin: yes, Tyrion and Griff are on their way

- sun's son: yes, Quentin is on his way

- mummer's dragon: yes, Young Griff is on his way

It is widely believed that Quaithe got the information she is imparting on Dany in this 'prophecy' through the use of a glass candle i.e. by watching things from a distance like Saruman, Denethor and Aragorn did through the palantir in LotR.

If this assumption is true then we can infer that Quaithe has seen all the happenings described above as ongoing at the time i.e. Quaithe has watched all these people travel towards Dany. This also neatly explains why Quaithe warns Dany of Griff and Young Griff even though they never show up with Dany: They were on their way to Meereen at the time Quaithe made the prophecy but later changed their minds due to Tyrion. Which Quaithe could not foresee.

So if Quaithe sees the perfumed seneschal at the time she sees Griff and Young Griff (still) travelling to Dany then she can not have seen Tyrion and Moqoro board the Selaesori Qhoran - ship at that time. Since that happened later and when it happened Griff and Young Griff were no longer bound towards Dany and Tyrion had dissuaded Young Griff already.

So if Quaithe got her knowledge through a glass candle then the Selaesori Quoran is not the perfumed seneschal from the prophecy.

Instead Varys and - especially - Illyrio are the likely candidates.

We know Tyrion was with Illyrio shortly before joining up with Griff and Young Griff. So time-wise it makes sense for the prophecy to be made at that point (before Tyrion had talked Young Griff into not going to Dany). And that talk between Tyrion and Illyrio during the litter-travel shortly before meeting up with Griff and Young Griff does make Illyrio seem suspect. Quaithe may have been watching.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Amris
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Why making things always so complicated?  Reznak is the perfumed seneschal. It is obvious.

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My money is on Varys. It strikes me as especially important that the "perfumed seneschal" is spoke of separately from the rest of her warnings. 

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On 6/27/2017 at 9:48 AM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

My money is on Varys. It strikes me as especially important that the "perfumed seneschal" is spoke of separately from the rest of her warnings. 

The most obvious problem is that Varys is not a "Seneschal." 

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