"Friend Zone" as Rape Culture and the Alpha\Beta Dichotomy

[TerraPrime]

RAINN (below) estimates that in the US college population 3-7% of the males are responsible for >90% of sexual assault. So by all means, paint all men, especially shy ones who complain about not getting dates with the broadest possible brush and call the entire culture "rape culture". Those "entitled guys" who cannot get laid are clearly the main problem here because they are entitled objectificators, if only in theory when fantasizing or watching porn. If the main organization for rape prevention disagrees and finds it unhelpful one should maybe reconsider the position...

 

This use of statistics is dubious at best, and entirely disingenuous at face value. So what if 5% of all men commit over 90% of sexual assaults on most college campuses? How does this refute the complaints about a rape culture? The complaint has never been about "all men are rapists." It is a cartoonishly errant characterization of the critique, a strawman erected to be struck down for your own amusement. Being creepy and disrespectful of boundaries is not just about nerdy guys - it's about the jocks, the nice guys, the Church-going do-gooders, too. That is in fact, part of the point, i.e., the prevalence of inappropriate boundary observation from men against women is one manifestation of the rape culture. 

[Lily Valley]

On 4/2/2017 at 7:52 PM, DunderMifflin said:

Ive certainly witnessed this more than once. Ive Also seen them actually believe it but be like "so what" i don't give a fuk about your shitty house. And also seen them be the theives themselves.

I had to quit this thread around here.  Could someone please keep in mind that these analogies involve a human body?  DM, turn this one back around and replace the word "house" with "body".  Now do you understand?  Do you?

Mysh, Scot, good luck.

[DunderMifflin]

59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

People have emotions.  That is undeniable.  When those emotions cause them to force people to have sex with them... that's rape.  The emotions do not and cannot justify sex without consent.  What people are doing is claiming that the emotions "nice guys" feel when they are rejected somehow justifies their anger and aggression based upon that anger.  It does not.  

The problem is that our culture rationalizes and trivializes people being forced into sex.  People play rationalization games to say that having sex with someone who is passed out isn't "really rape".  Or that the way someone was dressed ment they "really" consented to "rough sex".  It's crap.  Either someone consents, and is capable of giving consent, or they are not.

BTW no one is "entilted" to drive a car.  Driving a car is clearly a privilege not a right.  

I just dont see the trivialization of rape on any grand scale. Sure you can find people who say things like look at what she was wearing. I don't think those people represent how our society trivializes rape. It's still illegal, and in a democratic society people are entitled (there's that word again) to attempt to put up a defense if they are charged with a crime. 

And I am entitled to drive my car. Legally, morally, and socially Im entitled to it.

[Rippounet]

26 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

But to describe mainstream Western European (and presumably) US culture as "rape culture"

No one has done that.

26 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

RAINN (below) estimates that in the US college population 3-7% of the males are responsible for >90% of sexual assault. So by all means, paint all men, especially shy ones who complain about not getting dates with the broadest possible brush and call the entire culture "rape culture".

You may want to read previous pages of the thread before jumping on board and fighting strawmen.

26 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

If we really largely ignore/trivialize rape, why can the taint of an accusation of sexual misconduct ruin a man's career, even if he is acquitted in court?

He has to be tried in the first place, and for rape too, which doesn't happen often at all.

Then, your contention that an accusation of rape "ruins a man's career" is just as groundless as saying that it doesn't. In some cases an accusation may do so, in others, maybe not. The only numbers I have show that rape is a largely unreported unprosecuted crime, and thus that accusations of rape are very rare compared to how common the crime is.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

And I am entitled to drive my car. Legally, morally, and socially Im entitled to it.

Your parents buy your car for you? Pay for your insurance? Pay your repair bills? 

[DunderMifflin]

5 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

I had to quit this thread around here.  Could someone please keep in mind that these analogies involve a human body?  DM, turn this one back around and replace the word "house" with "body".  Now do you understand?  Do you?

Mysh, Scot, good luck.

I was responding to a claim that police never approached other crimes with disbelief. 

You are making  a new different comparison between a body and a house. That's you doing that. Not me.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I just dont see the trivialization of rape on any grand scale. Sure you can find people who say things like look at what she was wearing. I don't think those people represent how our society trivializes rape. It's still illegal, and in a democratic society people are entitled (there's that word again) to attempt to put up a defense if they are charged with a crime. 

And I am entitled to drive my car. Legally, morally, and socially Im entitled to it.

DM,

And I'm entitled to say what they are claiming to be a "defense" to the claim of rape is morally objectionable and contributes to the existence of people who believe that sex is some kind of entitlement.

You are absolutely not "entitled" to drive your car.  You may only drive your car if you are licensed to do so by the State.  Last comment on this tangent.  Start a new thread if you want to pursue this particular poor line of logic.

[KiDisaster]

56 minutes ago, Pebble said:

About 15-20 years ago I had a date with a guy I met from a dating site, who over diner after I declined going back to his place after the meal calmly explained to me that he was a Man and as a Man had a Mans impulses and desires, and just by being in his manly presence meant that I obviously wanted to have sex with him, even if I don’t really know it at the time.  Oh and I should not be surprised by this as every man thinks exactly the same way unless they are gay.  Oh and yes he kept trying to top up my wine glass and moaned whenever I chose to drink the water instead.   I think he genuinely thought it was not rape unless you were physically fighting them off and screaming your head off and if you pause for breath then it’s a bit doubtful.

I smiled sweetly, nodded and was very careful of what I said and did.   That evening seemed to drag on forever. And he made several attempts to get me to agree to sex most of the time just a minute or two apart.   After we had paid for the dinner I did my very best to leave in the opposite direction. But he insisted on coming with me and making sure I was safe.   I can tell you I totally did not feel safe. But eventually I made it to the train.   I only got to leave after I told him that I really did like him, but I had to get back as I had made plans that I totally could not change as people where depending on me.  But I would love to see him again real soon.

Once I got home, I curled up and cried.

He did not know my home address we only my mobile phone number we had agreed to meet at the restaurant.   I got several texts from him, each one got progressively worse,  I was called a bitch slut friend zoning whore and if he ever saw me again he would claim his due.  I owed him for the meal and the time he spent with me.   I just want to point out that I made sure to pay half the cost of dinner.

I’ve never told anyone about that night before, at the time I was frightened, scared and very ashamed.  I was ashamed of how he looked at me.  How he could talk to me like I was an object and very ashamed that I put myself in that position.  Part of me felt I should of reported him, but I felt I wouldn’t really be believed and that he hadn’t actually done anything illegal and that somehow the whole thing was my fault.   As time went on, I just wanted to put it behind me and pretend it never happened.  I never used a dating site again.

I know what happed was not my fault.  I know that now.  I also know I was lucky.   If I had drunk a little bit more before he revealed himself or if he had put anything in the drink.

I'm sorry Pebble, that's awful  

 

[Rippounet]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I just dont see the trivialization of rape on any grand scale.

And yet, numbers show that the crushing majority of rapists get away with it.

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I don't think those people represent how our society trivializes rape.

It's not an entire society or societies. It's a minority of individuals who actually defend rape on some level or another, sometimes unconsciously (as we've seen on this thread). This minority is enough to terrify the victims and keep them silent.

[DunderMifflin]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DM,

And I'm entitled to say what they are claiming to be a "defense" to the claim of rape is morally objectionable and contributes to the existence of people who believe that sex is some kind of entitlement.

You are absolutely not "entitled" to drive your car.  You may only drive your car if you are licensed to do so by the State.  Last comment on this tangent.  Start a new thread if you want to pursue this particular poor line of logic.

Yes i absolutely am. The license that i already have been issued by the State entitles me to drive.

[Week]

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

Yes i absolutely am. The license that i already have been issued by the State entitles me to drive.

Feel free to read the next sentence that you quote. Of all the odious takes on the issue, this line of discussion has been the most embarrassing to read. Give it a rest.

[DunderMifflin]

8 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

And yet, numbers show that the crushing majority of rapists get away with it.

As with most crimes.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Yes i absolutely am. The license that i already have been issued by the State entitles me to drive.

Here's the thread with my response:
 

 

[Week]

3 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

As with most crimes.

^Perfect distilled expression of the DM rhetoric 'strategy'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/17/520435073/trump-embraces-one-of-russias-favorite-propaganda-tactics-whataboutism

[DunderMifflin]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

^Perfect distilled expression of the DM rhetoric 'strategy'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/17/520435073/trump-embraces-one-of-russias-favorite-propaganda-tactics-whataboutism

Yeh if it's discussed in a vacuum without context, nothing can compare with the imaginary utopia of everyone doing 110% of everything they possibly can to prevent rape and catch rapists. It's certainly something to keep striving towards but it's hardly  standard that currently exists.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

Yeh if it's discussed in a vacuum without context, nothing can compare with the imaginary utopia of everyone doing 110% of everything they possibly can to prevent rape and catch rapists. It's certainly something to keep striving towards but it's hardly  standard that currently exists.

You've said you don't object to a spotlight being put on rape and people's attitude toward rape.  If that is the case, what is your purpose in this thread?

[Rippounet]

19 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

As with most crimes.

The difference being, of course, that in most cases of rape, it's actually known who the criminal is.

[TerraPrime]

25 minutes ago, DunderMifflin said:

I was responding to a claim that police never approached other crimes with disbelief. 

You are making  a new different comparison between a body and a house. That's you doing that. Not me.

You are speaking from both sides of your mouth. You're comparing the handling of property crimes to the handling of rapes, making a point that rape is treated in similar ways as other crimes, complete with flaws in the criminal justice system but not in addition to what other crimes face. So you are indeed comparing property crimes to rape, and by extension, drawing parallels between violation of a property to the violation of a person's body.

 

While some excuses do exist for both categories of crimes, there are some that are specific and unique to rape. You do not have U.S. Congress officials saying that there's a distinction between regular robbery and legitimate robbery. You don't have politicians and religious leaders saying that if your house is damaged after the robbery you should see it as a blessing from God. You don't have people casting judgment on the homeowner for having too many friends visit their house. You don't have Judges saying you should just sit back and enjoy the robbery while it's going to happen anyway. You don't get people saying you may secretly want to be robbed because you don't have bruises on your body from fighting so you must not have fought very hard against it.

 

Try as you might, and mightily you try, your attempt to claim that these types of dismissal and belittling happen to all types of crime simply does not comport with reality.

 

You're also steadfastly refusing to engage on the point that part of the critique on rape culture is on the push of narratives that seek to re-define rape, like with the Brock example, that someone, in some contexts, a rape isn't really a rape at all, just "bad communications" or "things getting out of hand."

[Kalbear]

Quote

RAINN (below) estimates that in the US college population 3-7% of the males are responsible for >90% of sexual assault. So by all means, paint all men, especially shy ones who complain about not getting dates with the broadest possible brush and call the entire culture "rape culture". 

Yes! This is totally true!

Also totally true, most of those people did not think they were raping anyone. Per David Lisak, here's a good example:

Quote

 

"It's quite well-known amongst college administrators that first-year students, freshman women, are particularly at risk for sexual assault," Lisak says. "The predators on campus know that women who are new to campus, they are younger, they're less experienced. They probably have less experience with alcohol, they want to be accepted. They will probably take more risks because they want to be accepted. So for all these reasons, the predators will look particularly for those women."

Still, Lisak says these men don't think of themselves as rapists. Usually they know the other student. And they don't use guns or knives.

"The basic weapon is alcohol," the psychologist says. "If you can get a victim intoxicated to the point where she's coming in and out of consciousness, or she's unconscious — and that is a very, very common scenario — then why would you need a weapon? Why would you need a knife or a gun?"

 

That, right there, is what we talk about when we talk about rape culture. When we make it a point to get people blackout drunk and this is an acceptable cultural value, when we believe (like these rapists do) that as long as they're not fighting back it isn't rape, when we have people like Mike Cernovich saying that it's impossible to date rape anyone:

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 Here's an automobile/rape connection I can get behind...