Question for show watchers and book readers.

[StepStark]

6 minutes ago, RevaM said:

You have been pardoned, good sir/lady?

Thanks, my lady. And I'm a male. Still not knighted, sadly.

[StepStark]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

That is the author's fault.  He sold HBO the rights in 2007.  Dance came out in 2011.  He still had plenty of time to get the books out and the series finished before the show wrapped.  The fact that he has not even got Winds out and we are half way through 2017 is on him.  If he had gotten Winds out even in 2014 or early 2015 he could have feasibly gotten the last book out before the show finished.  I have no sympathy for him at this point, he sold the rights to an unfinished story and then continues to leave it unfinished year after year.

So, what was he supposed to do? Publish TWOW by any means before 2015, even if he's not satisfied with the material? Even if it's sub par?

I'm constantly surprised that people seem to think it's just GRRM's whim that he didn't publish TWOW so far. But one very realistic reason for the delay is ignored: that GRRM is still not happy with what he wrote, and that he's busy improving it. And if that's the reason, then I'm more than happy to wait until he comes up with something that satisfies his ambitions.

And he's not forcing anyone to watch he show. Actually, it's really not that hard to push the show out of your life. Last year I didn't watch the sixth season until the very end when I binge watched all the episodes. And I wasn't spoiled until I decided to come here and check people's reactions to the new season. So it's entirely possible to wait for GRRM without being spoiled by the show. And if he's really using all this time to improve the books as I expect, then it's probably well worth it.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, StepStark said:

So, what was he supposed to do? Publish TWOW by any means before 2015, even if he's not satisfied with the material? Even if it's sub par?

I'm constantly surprised that people seem to think it's just GRRM's whim that he didn't publish TWOW so far. But one very realistic reason for the delay is ignored: that GRRM is still not happy with what he wrote, and that he's busy improving it. And if that's the reason, then I'm more than happy to wait until he comes up with something that satisfies his ambitions.

And he's not forcing anyone to watch he show. Actually, it's really not that hard to push the show out of your life. Last year I didn't watch the sixth season until the very end when I binge watched all the episodes. And I wasn't spoiled until I decided to come here and check people's reactions to the new season. So it's entirely possible to wait for GRRM without being spoiled by the show. And if he's really using all this time to improve the books as I expect, then it's probably well worth it.

His blog, his list of activities and his travel schedule do not leave much time for "improving" the book, and of course, it's my opinion that Feast and Dance are far, far weaker than the previous three....even though he took almost twice as long to write them....which is suggestive of the more time he spends, the worse the final product becomes, that he ends up writing and thinking in circles and loses the thrust of the story.

I have stopped watching the show and do not intend to watch it this season.  However, I no longer fool myself about the author.  If you are waiting for GRRM to finish A Song of Ice and Fire, I suspect you have a very, very long wait ahead of you.  I expect personally that Winds will be the weakest book of the series.

[RhaenysBee]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I think a lot of people quite honestly, just think that the last thing they watched is the best....that is the only reason anyone would put season 6 as the best, it was better than season 5, but that isn't saying much, LOL.

I would have enjoyed a better series that paid more attention to details and avoided the easy to fix errors the show has been making forever....but I will most enjoy, or at least can cross it off my list, an end to the story and a resolution for the main characters, and sadly, that is coming only from GOT at this point, the author I believe will be lucky to get one more book out, he will never get two or three finished, and since I don't think he can finish the series in two books.......

Maybe, but it's still baffling. 

Yes I agree with every word of this.

2 hours ago, RevaM said:

i wouldn't count on them if i were you tbh. yes, grrm has told them the ending but by the look of the show we can tell that grrm was pretty vague about it, so D&D decided to improvise. and by that i can predict that the endings of the books AND the show will be very different. And yes, some points like Jon being a product of Ice and fire, and yada yada will be the same with the books but i have a feeling that the details (e.g:relationships and etc) will be different. And for me tbh, the only valid ending will be GRRM's and not D&D's.

Also about GRRM, i agree. i mean, it cannot possibly take him 6 years to finish ONE book. And I've concluded that there can only be several reasons for this: he is loosing interest, or maybe his age plays a big role on it (that guy is 70, lets just hope that he will live a bit longer), orrrrrr the books are super long and complicated for him to finish.

And TBH, while D&D did work their ass off, they could've at least stayed a bit true to martin's story (which they didn't, they ruined many character's arc and portrayed them wrong) maybe then i wouldn't have hated them so much. And i feel like both D&D and GRRM are loosing interest and they just want to be done with ASOIAF for good. but that's just me, i could be wrong.

I understand that you would prefer grrm's ending, so would I, but since we'll never get that, I'll settle for what I know we will have and that's d&d and their ending. Shit ending > no ending, as far as I'm concerned. 

no, it absolutely doesn't take 6 years to write a novel not even if it's 700 pages long. The Harry Potter books were bloody long around the middle too, but Rowling (who I don't even like, make no mistake) didn't take 6 years to write one. I think it's a combination of losing interest, being comfortable (Making a fortune without having to lift a finger let alone get work done) and being old. 

I agree that they could have been more faithful to the source material. I do believe that they had their reasons though and didn't just choose to deliberately annoy book fans. I would also add that while d&d may not have enough respect for the source material that got them where they are, Martin doesn't have a whole lot of respect for readers who got him where he is either. I mean I do can't get over the six-year wait. And yes it's crystal clear that d&d (and most of the cast) are sick and tired of the show and just want it to be over. Not sure about GRRM in that regard. 

 

55 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Sorry to say but this would be like waiting for a 10 years old kid to deliver the next installment in The Godfather saga (I'm using Godfather not as something that is unfinished, because it obviously is finished, but as something that could be continued with characters that were alive at the end). D&D simply don't have the talent to tell a coherent, layered, meaningful story. Whether it's Martin's story or some of their own, it makes no difference. As RevaM proved time and again in this thread, D&D managed to screw any number of characters and any number of plots, when all they had to do is just put them on screen without any significant change (only changes due to budget or time constrains). They are not capable of delivering a good story, period.

And last season actually proved this without a doubt. Do you really think that Jon's "death" in the books will be resolved as in the show? Do you really think that in the books Tyrells silent overtaking of power in KL will end with Cersei blowing them up in the Sept? Or that Rickon will die like in the show? Or Ramsay, or Meereen? Even if I never read the books, all those "conclusions" would be highly unsatisfying for me.

What I'm trying to say is that you may enjoy the show, but you'd be advised not to take anything in the show as the conclusion of the original story.

the difference is exactly what you said. The Godfather is a completed story. GoT is incomplete, it doesn't end. I know many people don't share this view but I would sooner have a shitty ending over no ending. And I know that GRRM won't give me any ending. 

Yes, I agree that they are not capable of delivering a good story. There's no denying that. What I will point out though is that I personally don't want a layered and meaningful story. I want a drama movie or a book or a play to be layered and meaningful. A fantasy series doesn't have to be layered and meaningful in my book. It just has to be consistent. And it's not.  but I have set out on the whole asoiaf journey and there's no turning back. And at least d&d will get me to the end. Something I cannot count on Martin doing. And it's crap, but still more than nothing. 

[crowcrow]

Just now, RhaenysB said:

I understand that you would prefer grrm's ending, so would I, but since we'll never get that, I'll settle for what I know we will have and that's d&d and their ending. Shit ending > no ending, as far as I'm concerned.

Never lose hope my friend. There is a saying that "hope dies last"

and tbh from reading all the threads/speculation+the original outline, i have good knowledge of how the story will end...i think...

 

 

[RhaenysBee]

8 minutes ago, StepStark said:

So, what was he supposed to do? Publish TWOW by any means before 2015, even if he's not satisfied with the material? Even if it's sub par?

I'm constantly surprised that people seem to think it's just GRRM's whim that he didn't publish TWOW so far. But one very realistic reason for the delay is ignored: that GRRM is still not happy with what he wrote, and that he's busy improving it. And if that's the reason, then I'm more than happy to wait until he comes up with something that satisfies his ambitions.

And he's not forcing anyone to watch he show. Actually, it's really not that hard to push the show out of your life. Last year I didn't watch the sixth season until the very end when I binge watched all the episodes. And I wasn't spoiled until I decided to come here and check people's reactions to the new season. So it's entirely possible to wait for GRRM without being spoiled by the show. And if he's really using all this time to improve the books as I expect, then it's probably well worth it.

Yes. Exactly. What was he supposed to do? Get shit done. There's always room for improvement, a piece of writing is never ever ready, you can always change things and always improve things. At some point (like a night before the deadline your editor gives you), you have to let it go in the knowledge that it's good enough even if you could spend another ten days (years, in case of GRRM) improving it. 

asoiaf is a good story, but who are we kidding, it's not some sort of unworldly perfection that has to be crafted for six years. It's a book. It's a fictional fantasy story. The kind of which other authors publish six in six years, instead of one (or zero). Don't rush it, don't get on a tight schedule, but I'm not buying that any book needs six years to be written, if it does, something is wrong. 

Yes it's entirely possible, but why on god's earth would anybody want to do that? and what's the guarantee that there'll even be a reward? Like 35 year old me will say ah, right, this poor author never got to finish his amazing novels I read when I was 18... but hey, wasn't there a show made, like a decade ago, maybe I can watch that and see if what happened? Why is this good for me? Come on.  

[Cas Stark]

Back to the topic at hand as this discussion is straying into an area that the site usually doesn't like to see...

The show initially did a great job with casting and characterization....of which both have slowly eroded, characterization much more so than casting, although some of their later casting choices were weak, as have been all the recastings.

I can't honestly say there is any character I prefer in show form, although there are several book characters I don't miss.  

[RhaenysBee]

Just now, RevaM said:

Never lose hope my friend. There is a saying that "hope dies last"

and tbh from reading all the threads/speculation+the original outline, i have good knowledge of how the story will end...i think...

 

 

I never lose hope. To this day, I still have some little faith that I might at the end like d&d's ending. 

But you know, the impossible is impossible. I don't hope for stuff like $20 hourly wage or 20% vat either. 

[crowcrow]

Just now, RhaenysB said:

I still have some little faith that I might at the end like d&d's ending. 

lol i have lost complete faith that D&D's ending would be as good as Martin's but okey...okey...i'm not going start on this again

i have my faith on Martin though, i hope he won't disappoint us this year too.

[crowcrow]

42 minutes ago, StepStark said:

What I'm trying to say is that you may enjoy the show, but you'd be advised not to take anything in the show as the conclusion of the original story.

golden words indeed, my dude.

[RhaenysBee]

4 minutes ago, RevaM said:

lol i have lost complete faith that D&D's ending would be as good as Martin's but okey...okey...i'm not going start on this again

i have my faith on Martin though, i hope he won't disappoint us this year too.

I didn't say that. D&d's ending's  being as good as martin's is just as much in the impossible category as my 20% vat. But I still hope I won't hate it. One can hope for that much. 

And hey, I'll be happy if you're right. 

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

Back to the topic at hand as this discussion is straying into an area that the site usually doesn't like to see...

The show initially did a great job with casting and characterization....of which both have slowly eroded, characterization much more so than casting, although some of their later casting choices were weak, as have been all the recastings.

I can't honestly say there is any character I prefer in show form, although there are several book characters I don't miss.  

i disagree with the casting part. i think the casting for the starks (except for Benjen) was wrong on so many levels...just ugh, the mere thought of kit harrington, isaac,wright and maisie williams makes me want to cringe. but i suppose that's purely subjective.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

D&D's ending of the story will essentially be the same as GRRM's.  Why wouldn't it be?  Only the character arcs getting to the ending should have some differences.  Remember GRRM told D&D the final WTF twist at the end of the story.

Sadly this might be the only ending we get.  I used to be really confident that GRRM would finish the books.  Now?  Not so sure..  At least thanks to GoT we will at least know in principle how ASoIaF might have ended.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, RevaM said:

i disagree with the casting part. i think the casting for the starks (except for Benjen) was wrong on so many levels...just ugh, the thought kit harrington, isaac,wright  and maisie williams makes me want to cringe. but i suppose that's purely subjective.

What's wrong with Isaac Wright?  I thought he was a perfect Bran in the first few seaons...it's not anyone's fault he is a very awkward teenager.  Maise I guess it's a taste issue, she is never going to be grow up to be a beauty like her book personna, but as far as the tough tomboy that she is, I have thought she was great.  Kit isn't a great actor, but he looks the part to me.  I can't think of anyone better than Sean Bean as Ned Stark.

[snow is the man]

11 hours ago, RevaM said:

she didn't suffer the same way she did in the books. in the show she was a cupbearer of tywin and she ate his leftover foods which is more than book!arya could ever wish for. 

what do you mean some things couldn't be put in the show????couldnt they show that she has low self-esteem so we can relate???couldn't they show how she was threatened with rape several times?couldn't they show how much of a good leader she was??couldn't jon muss her hair back in winterfell for several time to let us know that its their thing??couldn't arya and jon remember each other fondly for several times at least?or couldn't she talk with gendry about her bastard brother and how much he reminded her of him, and couldn't jon talk with ygritte or about arya and how she reminded him of her???was a few lines of remembering each other to emphasise their relationship that hard for D&D?? was saying "all girls are idiots" easier for them???couldn't she learn several languages in HoBoW??couldn't her bravoos plotline make more sense???couldn't they show that she is a warg+a skin changer???was saying that "all girls are idiot" EVEN necessary??? 

When you say "some things couldn't be put in the show", you mean literally every single damn good quality Arya has. Literally the only thing that they did put in the show was that she was a "slave" and that is not even a quality. (note that her being a slave didn't last for long, right after twin came she became a cupbearer) every single point i have mentioned in my previous post didn't make it to the show. and that just proves how much D&D just doesn't give a fuck about arya as a character and how much they prefer sansa more bc for a petty reason as: sansa is prettier.

And talking down on you??? by the way you were talking i thought you haven't read the books, so sorry if i misinterpreted you. 

 

you're the one who said that show arya is better...i proved you that she is not. you also asked how is book arya more humane/kinder, i gave you all the proofs for that.

in the show she is just portrayed as some misogynistic psychopath. and i also explained why i think her plot makes 0% sense. you either didn't read the books several times as you claim you did, or you didn't read the books attentively to notice the details, or you just simply ignored everything i wrote.

Because show arya is NOT in any way BETTER than book arya and that is just a gospel truth.

uh "better" in the terms of entertainment is not something you can measure since It's up to the individual viewer and reader. Also she isn't anti women she just doesn't want their roll. She wants to learn to use a sword not be some lords babymaker and arm candy. In season 1 when eddard stark says she will be be some lords wife and give him children she says "that's not me" She doesn't want the role most women have.

And sansa does off as annoying until this season so how do you figure they give extra time to her.  Up until this season she was incredibly annoying.

[snow is the man]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What's wrong with Isaac Wright?  I thought he was a perfect Bran in the first few seaons...it's not anyone's fault he is a very awkward teenager.  Maise I guess it's a taste issue, she is never going to be grow up to be a beauty like her book personna, but as far as the tough tomboy that she is, I have thought she was great.  Kit isn't a great actor, but he looks the part to me.  I can't think of anyone better than Sean Bean as Ned Stark.

Personally I agree with you except with ned stark. I like him in the book alot more and think sean bean didn't do a good job with him. Or maybe it was the writing.

[snow is the man]

7 hours ago, StepStark said:

You Sir perfectly explained the background of D&D worshiping. Only people that didn't read the books attentively or didn't read at all, can say that any of the characters is "better" in the show (by "better" they usually mean "more screen time", which is partially true because some characters did get more time in the show than in the books, but NONE of those characters is actually better off because of it - quite the opposite, they were thrown from one inconsistency to another by D&D).

I find many parts of the show stupid and the books better. Rob stark in the book is better. The battle at the wall is far better in the book. Stannis in the books makes more sense. I don't worship the show I just like it.

[crowcrow]

Just now, snow is the man said:

uh "better" in the terms of entertainment is not something you can measure since It's up to the individual viewer and reader. Also she isn't anti women she just doesn't want their roll. She wants to learn to use a sword not be some lords babymaker and arm candy. In season 1 when eddard stark says she will be be some lords wife and give him children she says "that's not me" She doesn't want the role most women have.

And sansa does off as annoying until this season so how do you figure they give extra time to her.  Up until this season she was incredibly annoying.

 "all girls are idiots" means that all girls are idiots and that's it. there is no tinfoil there. that sounds like something a misogynist would say.  

The real arya, admires loads of female individuals like Queen Nymeria and she is proud to be a girl. she does NOT want to be a baby maker, true enough but saying "all girls are idiots" had nothing to do with that.

[snow is the man]

2 minutes ago, RevaM said:

 "all girls are idiots" means that all girls are idiots and that's it. there is no tinfoil there. that sounds like something a misogynist would say.  

The real arya, admires loads of female individuals like Queen Nymeria and she is proud to be a girl. she does NOT want to be a baby maker, true enough but saying "all girls are idiots" had nothing to do with that.

I can't remember the context exactly but in the show her and tywin talk and we find out one of aegon's sisters was her hero .I still say it is just that she doesn't want the role most women have in that world but not gonna argue

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

What's wrong with Isaac Wright?  I thought he was a perfect Bran in the first few seaons...it's not anyone's fault he is a very awkward teenager.  Maise I guess it's a taste issue, she is never going to be grow up to be a beauty like her book personna, but as far as the tough tomboy that she is, I have thought she was great.  Kit isn't a great actor, but he looks the part to me.  I can't think of anyone better than Sean Bean as Ned Stark.

 

tbh, i think all of the stark family was casted horribly. Is it so hard to find people with auburn hair and long face??? Aside from Sansa (But frankly speaking, i think Sophie Turner's "beauty" is really overrrated, like she's pretty. sure. but not drop dead gorgeous 10/10), none of the starks got to be played by actors that were like them.(except for Benjen)

isaac wright doesn't have the tully looks and neither does robb's and rickon's actors. 

Honestly, i think Robb, Bran, Rickon had to have red hair+Blue eye to contrast the difference between Jon and Arya, since both of them are outsiders/black sheep and that is a very important theme in their chapters and because of the poor casting choice the effect wasn't there.

Catelyn is too damn old...like seriously why....couldn't they find a younger actress

When i watch the show, i always wonder why D&D even considered him as Jon in the first place. Kit doesn't have the Stark features (He has black hair, brown eyes, round face while the real Jon has long face, brown hair and dark grey/almost black eyes). And after Jon's resurrection, Kit plays him more boring than ever. Like, i doubt the real Jon would get 100231783839% more emo than he already is after the so called "resurrection"

And i disagree about Sean Bean, yes, he is an excellent actor, but he is just not ned. He has blue eyes and dark blonde hair and an oval face instead of the classic stark look.

And as for Maisie....ah where should i start...she isn't beautiful, nor pretty or even cute (but that's subjective and purely my humble opinion) which is disappointing, since beauty is a very important theme in her chapters + she is supposed to be like her aunt right? I know she was a kid and nobody knew that puberty would be so cruel to her lol but still. there were 300 girls who wanted to play Arya and I'm sure there were some long faced girls that were somewhat similar to the real Arya.

And she is nothing like i imagined the real Arya would look like. even GRRM says so. he imagined arya to look more wolfish with pointy features and Maisie doesn't have that AT ALL. she has this round baby face and hazel?green? eyes. Like Sean, she is a good actress but she's simply not arya. And now she looks too old to play her (its obvious she isn't 14) and the show completely skipped her "flowering" moment. GAH.