DutchArya

Arya, Lemon cakes & the girl she remembers

68 posts in this topic

33 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 It made me recall I believe @Seams pointing out Maester Colemon  as a co-lemon in another thread.

I was thinking his name was coal man and all of the associated symbolism. One that strikes me is unites the co-lemon catch, coal and lemon cakes, is Tyrion's famous saying of " A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."

Ashes can be thought of as pure carbon like coal and the Tyrions saying is pretty much saying your joy will be bitter and thus can be thought of bitter sweetness of the lemon cakes. 

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I was thinking his name was coal man and all of the associated symbolism. One that strikes me is unites the co-lemon catch, coal and lemon cakes, is Tyrion's famous saying of " A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."

Ashes can be thought of as pure carbon like coal and the Tyrions saying is pretty much saying your joy will be bitter and thus can be thought of bitter sweetness of the lemon cakes. 

Oh, this is getting good, PK...he he

And the 'cole/coal pie' in the mouth relates to eating 'mud pies', hence being made to 'eat shit' or 'talk shit' (relating back to the game played when they were children by Lysa and Cat at Petyr's expense, which later translated into the noxious one played as adults by Petyr at the expense of the former two parties...) -- and we're back to the mocked turning the tables on the mockers; and the 'killing word'!

Edited by ravenous reader

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4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:
12 minutes ago, zandru said:

When did Sansa ever seem like No One to Arya? Sansa was always the ultimate, perfect, ideal girl; the one everyone knew and loved; the one destined to marry the King on the Iron Throne. Sansa was the one who sang and danced and sewed. Sansa was the socialite, the sister who constantly hobnobbed with the lordly and powerful, the annoited knights, and all the rest.

As Arya would remember her, Sansa was anything BUT No One. Sansa's personality only looks that way to those who don't much care for her.

Before Arya's mask initiation, the 'Kindly Man' cautions her to think carefully about the magnitude of the decision on which she is embarking, which is predicated on giving up ones worldly ties, especially those first-and-foremost to ones family.  As a 'blue falcon' figure (or traitor to her family) as elaborated on my 'Killing Word' thread by @Pain killer Jane, Sansa has arguably been in the business of forsaking her family for much longer than Arya, hence 'no one,' and hence why she lost her identity, as embodied in the sacrifice of her wolf.  Sansa has never had a strong sense of self.  Not having a strong sense of self, however, does not necessarily mean one is not deserving of love.  As I indicated above, many of her siblings still think of Sansa, including Arya and Jon.  I think this is because part of Lady's ghost still lives on in Sansa; and the other wolves and therefore siblings by extension can still sense her.  I've based this on Ghost/Jon's ambiguous tally as to the number of wolves he can sense when south of the Wall (see the 'What is Ghost' thread).

@zandru

You can be someone and no one at the same time. Sansa understands that those around her only see Winterfell without seeing her. Tyrion even cites Sansa's emotional health as a reason to not marry her but is then rebuffed and Tywin says that the only important thing about Sansa is her claim to Winterfell. Sansa even repeats several times that all people see is Winterfell and the North. But as Alayne people do not see Winterfell and thus Sansa the person can shine through. 

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17 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, I disagree with you on this one.

You might disagree, but can you show me where in the text it says Arya "loved lemon cakes"?

The more I read this passage the more convinced I am that she's talking about Sansa.

Quote

A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya

"A thousand years ago" (before she was No One) she had "known a girl who loved lemon cakes" - if she was talking about herself, she would have said "A thousand years ago, she had loved lemon cakes" or "she had been a girl who loved lemon cakes" which would then make her subsequent correction of herself accurate.  No that was Arya who loved lemon cakes, not No One.

But she doesn't say that - she (No One) had known a girl (not been a girl) who loved lemon cakes. No, she tells herself, that wasn't me (No One), that was Arya. If she was the "girl" then she should be pleased that she's able to distance herself from the "herself" of a thousand years ago when "she... loved lemon cakes". Instead, she says "No, that was not me" but in her original thought it was NEVER her, it was a girl she had known.

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12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh, this is getting good, PK...he he

And the 'cole/coal pie' in the mouth relates to eating 'mud pies', hence being made to 'eat shit' or 'talk shit' (relating back to the game played when they were children by Lysa and Cat at Petyr's expense, which later translated into the noxious one played as adults by Petyr at the expense of the former two parties...) -- and we're back to the mocked turning the tables on the mockers; and the 'killing word'!

So true. The mocking between children is not as harmless at it seems. 

Now I wonder since you mentioned the cole/coal pie in the mouth, could it have a relation to the salt in the mouth of the men who pillaged Saltpans through the use of coal to start fires and the Saltpeter/Sweetpetyr pun? Because you know remember how I said that that the salt in the mouth could be a reference to the Theon scene with the Captain's daughters way back in Clash and since 'Peter' is also a byword for penis then there could be a relation between the coal pies and the salt in the mouth. 

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12 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

if she was talking about herself, she would have said...

Really?  When has GRRM ever bothered to be explicit about these things, in order to avoid a misunderstanding as to who and what is referenced?  No -- it's ambiguous, probably deliberately.  From a certain point of view, it makes sense that Arya, as a function of her self-estrangement encouraged by her training in the HOBAW, would be referring to herself in the third person, as she attempts to distance herself from her history.  At the same time, I can also see your point.  Both are valid interpretations.

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I seem to a different view on lemons, lemoncakes and the alter-egos of Alayne and No One.

There’s a common opinion that truth is always good and lies are always bad. Plain lemons help you deal with reality on a practical level, but it can be emotionally brutal and perhaps results in permanent emotional damage depending on the context. Lemon cakes hurt one’s ability to handle reality, but they can be essential in preventing emotional damage. They both have positive and negative aspects.

Arya is seeing the truth in more realistic terms, but sometimes seeing only truth, especially if that truth is largely negative, can sour the soul and keep one from seeing positive potential: seeing the silver lining, looking for the good in the bad, from turning lemons into lemonade if you will. It’s not healthy if carried to an extreme. Arya needs a little sugar to help her move on emotionally, but not so much that she begins to delude herself.

Extreme sugar-coating is equally unhealthy. Sometimes looking too hard for a silver lining can keep one from seeing the cloud and seeking shelter from storm. Sansa could do with a sugar reduction to allow her to see the gravity of her situation and encourage her to act, but she shouldn’t reduce it so much that she allows herself to become bitter and unable to move on from the terrible things which have happened to her.

Arya completely rejecting lemon cakes and drinking only the sour and Sansa's escalating lemon cakes indicates to me that both girls are exhibiting unhealthy extremes, at least in this.

I’m not concerned about Sansa merging with Alayne, nor Arya trying on “no one” for size. I believe both girls repressed parts of their personality in completely accepting the role of “Lady” in Sansa's case or completely rejecting the role of “Lady” as in Arya's case. People don't perfect fit or don't fit their social roles.

Sansa showed an openness to bastardism and what Westeros generally considers to be unlady-like long before the Alayne persona. Alayne can be Sansa finally uncovered, not true Sansa destroyed. Likewise Arya. Whereas Sansa blanket-accepted her role of “Lady,” Arya blanket-rejected it. We see where Arya longs to be more feminine. That she refused to even comb her hair while longing to be more feminine sounds like rebellion for the sake of rebellion to me, and not that Arya was being true to herself by not grooming. Again, both girls swinging towards unhealthy extremes.

ASoS Sansa IV: As they were crossing the yard, Prince Oberyn of Dorne fell in beside them, his black-haired paramour on his arm. Sansa glanced at the woman curiously. She was baseborn and unwed, and had borne two bastard daughters for the prince, but she did not fear to look even the queen in the eye. Shae had told her that this Ellaria worshiped some Lysene love goddess. "She was almost a whore when he found her, m'lady," her maid confided, "and now she's near a princess." Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye.

ACoK Catelyn VII: "And Arya, well . . . Ned's visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy and half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart's desire.

Not unlike a college kid who tries on different groups of friends and adopts different ideas just to try them on, so the personas of Alayne and No One are allowing both Sansa and Arya to discover parts of themselves which they’ve never fully realized because of either completely accepting (Sansa) or completely rejecting (Arya) their "Lady-like" upbringing.  In doing so, they both rejected parts of themselves.

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4 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

So true. The mocking between children is not as harmless at it seems. 

Now I wonder since you mentioned the cole/coal pie in the mouth, could it have a relation to the salt in the mouth of the men who pillaged Saltpans through the use of coal to start fires and the Saltpeter/Sweetpetyr pun? Because you know remember how I said that that the salt in the mouth could be a reference to the Theon scene with the Captain's daughters way back in Clash and since 'Peter' is also a byword for penis then there could be a relation between the coal pies and the salt in the mouth. 

Oh, my gosh, are you saying that Petyr's 'sweet peter' is really a 'salt peter'?!  :D

There is a certain symmetry in the poetic justice applied in the retribution:

So, raiding 'salt pans' ---> made to eat salt

Perhaps Littlefinger feels f***ed by life ---> so now he's out to f- the others? (and it's why he's a brothelkeeper, so he can control the direction of the transaction).  This relation is reflected in the Prologue by Will and Waymar, the two main protagonists, who are both made to 'eat their words' in turn (and there's also the dagger in the mouth as emblematic of the mutual aggression involved)

The link between coal and salt is less clear to me; could you elaborate please?

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14 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

You might disagree, but can you show me where in the text it says Arya "loved lemon cakes"?

The more I read this passage the more convinced I am that she's talking about Sansa.

"A thousand years ago" (before she was No One) she had "known a girl who loved lemon cakes" - if she was talking about herself, she would have said "A thousand years ago, she had loved lemon cakes" or "she had been a girl who loved lemon cakes" which would then make her subsequent correction of herself accurate.  No that was Arya who loved lemon cakes, not No One.

But she doesn't say that - she (No One) had known a girl (not been a girl) who loved lemon cakes. No, she tells herself, that wasn't me (No One), that was Arya. If she was the "girl" then she should be pleased that she's able to distance herself from the "herself" of a thousand years ago when "she... loved lemon cakes". Instead, she says "No, that was not me" but in her original thought it was NEVER her, it was a girl she had known.

I don't know. Take a look at how I interpret these instances. 

Quote

Arya would have given anything for a cup of milk and a lemon cake, but the brown wasn't so bad. 

- Arya V, aGoT

"There's going to be lemon cakes and tea," Sansa went on, all adult and reasonable. Lady brushed against her leg. Sansa scratched her ears the way she liked, and Lady sat beside her on her haunches, watching Arya chase Nymeria. "Why would you want to ride a smelly old horse and get all sore and sweaty when you could recline on feather pillows and eat cakes with the queen?"

"I don't like the queen," Arya said casually. Sansa sucked in her breath, shocked that even Arya would say such a thing, but her sister prattled on, heedless. 

-Sansa I, aGoT

"Gods be true, Arya, sometimes you act like such a child," Sansa said. "I'll go by myself then. It will be ever so much nicer that way. Lady and I will eat all the lemon cakes and just have the best time without you."

-Sansa I, aGoT

I do not believe Arya here wishing she had a glass of milk and lemon cakes are a coincidence. Sansa uses lemon cakes as an enticement for Arya to join her to visit with the queen. She even lords it over Arya that she will eat all the lemon cakes without her. Thus reading between the lines, we can safely say that Arya does at least like lemon cakes. But the fact that Arya yearns for lemon cakes later on does support the hypothesis that Arya may be talking about herself in HoWaB. 

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42 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh, my gosh, are you saying that Petyr's 'sweet peter' is really a 'salt peter'?!  :D

There is a certain symmetry in the poetic justice applied in the retribution:

So, raiding 'salt pans' ---> made to eat salt

Perhaps Littlefinger feels f***ed by life ---> so now he's out to f- the others? (and it's why he's a brothelkeeper, so he can control the direction of the transaction).  This relation is reflected in the Prologue by Will and Waymar, the two main protagonists, who are both made to 'eat their words' in turn (and there's also the dagger in the mouth as emblematic of the mutual aggression involved)

The link between coal and salt is less clear to me; could you elaborate please?

Absolutely that is what I am implying.

Well coal and salt are both mined and since you mentioned that Littlefinger owns brothels, the Nightswatch does refer going to Mole's Town brothel and whoring there as 'digging for buried treasure'. And while the digging can be digging above ground, the name Mole's Town indicates that it should be seen as mining since a mole is an animal that digs burrows in the earth. 

ETA: and I was thinking that both are used to preserve meat; coal used to make fire which is used to smoke meat and salt meat is preserved meat. 

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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19 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Absolutely that is what I am implying.

Well coal and salt are both mined and since you mentioned that Littlefinger owns brothels, the Nightswatch does refer going to Mole's Town brothel and whoring there as 'digging for buried treasure'. And while the digging can be digging above ground, the name Mole's Town indicates that it should be seen as mining since a mole is an animal that digs burrows in the earth. 

And a 'mole' is also a double-crossing double agent (akin to 'blue falcon').  

What do you think is the significance of the saltpeter crystals-- otherwise known as 'niter' -- lining the well symbolically birthing the people in the Night Fort?

That's a nice well-balanced summary @Lollygag

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18 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

And a 'mole' is also a double-crossing double agent (akin to 'blue falcon').  

What do you think is the significance of the saltpeter crystals-- otherwise known as 'niter' -- lining the well symbolically birthing the people in the Night Fort?

That's a nice well-balanced summary @Lollygag

Yes I forgot about that other meaning of mole. But yes you are right. 

Hmm...well the niter and saltpeter alludes to weapons. Saltpeter for gunpowder and explosives which is the equivalent of metal ore for swords and the like. And since back in the day, saltpeter was harvested from bat shit, I can reasonably say that it is another reference to shitting out swords. Bran's presence in the Night Fort points to this as well since he is a broken sword. 

Bronn as well points to this as well since he is a shitty sellsword and Symon Silvertongue is also in a hollow- describe as a sink- in the presence of niter. 

Quote

The wine sink was a dismal place, dark and damp, walls pale with niter, the ceiling so low that Bronn would have had to duck to keep from hitting his head on the beams. Tyrion Lannister had no such problem. At this hour, the front room was empty but for a dead-eyed woman who sat on a stool behind a rough plank bar. She handed him a cup of sour wine and said, "In the back."

The back room was even darker. A flickering candle burned on a low table, beside a flagon of wine. The man behind it scarce looked a danger; a short man—though all men were tall to Tyrion—with thinning brown hair, pink cheeks, and a little pot pushing at the bone buttons of his doeskin jerkin. In his soft hands he held a twelve-stringed woodharp more deadly than a longsword.

Tyrion sat across from him. "Symon Silver Tongue."

-Tyrion IV, aSoS

 

Edited by Pain killer Jane

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1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Yes I forgot about that other meaning of mole. But yes you are right. 

Hmm...well the niter and saltpeter alludes to weapons. Saltpeter for gunpowder and explosives which is the equivalent of metal ore for swords and the like. And since back in the day, saltpeter was harvested from bat shit, I can reasonably say that it is another reference to shitting out swords.

:rofl:  Pyke vs. Mallister again...

1 minute ago, Pain killer Jane said:

Bran's presence in the Night Fort points to this as well since he is a broken sword. 

Bronn as well points to this as well since he is a shitty sellsword and Symon Silvertongue is also in a hollow- describe as a sink- in the presence of niter. 

Quote

The wine sink was a dismal place, dark and damp, walls pale with niter, the ceiling so low that Bronn would have had to duck to keep from hitting his head on the beams. Tyrion Lannister had no such problem. At this hour, the front room was empty but for a dead-eyed woman who sat on a stool behind a rough plank bar. She handed him a cup of sour wine and said, "In the back."

The back room was even darker. A flickering candle burned on a low table, beside a flagon of wine. The man behind it scarce looked a danger; a short man—though all men were tall to Tyrion—with thinning brown hair, pink cheeks, and a little pot pushing at the bone buttons of his doeskin jerkin. In his soft hands he held a twelve-stringed woodharp more deadly than a longsword.

Tyrion sat across from him. "Symon Silver Tongue."

-Tyrion IV, aSoS

That's a great catch.  I love the idea of the word -- as represented by the 'woodharp' (weirwood reference too) -- coming out of the 'back door', 'sink-(hole)' or cesspool!

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2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That's a great catch.  I love the idea of the word -- as represented by the 'woodharp' (weirwood reference too) -- coming out of the 'back door', 'sink-(hole)' or cesspool!

And the great thing as well, Symon is a singer like Those Who Sing the Song of Earth which Bran also finds in a cesspool. You know that maybe a pun, RR. When a gene pool has too much incest it becomes a cesspool. 

 

Just now, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Dany's warm childhood memory of the house with the red door and the lemon tree? Anyone? Bueller?

I see a red door and I want to paint it black..............

You know RR I was going to mention Mad Danelle and Dany in our discussion of the saltpeter but I haven't fleshed out the details.

This is how I see it. The Lothstones could potentially have dragon blood and dragon's are weapons while also being fire, children and power. Mixing in Lady Stoneheart's theme of 'The Mercy of the Mother is Madness' then I tend to think that power corrupting is equal to going "bat shit crazy'. 

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11 minutes ago, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Dany's warm childhood memory of the house with the red door and the lemon tree? Anyone? Bueller?

I am not even going to wade into the mire of Dany's lemon tree. That is stirring up shit.

 

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Word of the day winner! @zandru "perspicacious "

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I'll give it a shot. I have a big spoon. 

Leaving aside the waste of time that is trying to theorise where the tree is. Let me make that perfectly clear. NOBODY wants that conversation. 

The basic insight here -- and it's a really good one!! -- is that lemons = truth. Usually a hard, bitter truth. The tree here represents that the root of many truths will be revealed when she figures out and/or remembers where the hell that place was and who was there taking care of her. A number of difficult and bitter truths will flow out of that revelation. See a million other threads about her parentage and early life for more. Not important here! But it looks to me like The George is signposting that this is a really important piece of the puzzle. 

In other lemon imagery, we have Lem Lemoncloak. Whom Radio Westeros convincingly claimed was one of Rhaegar's companions. I will posit here that he knows some truths about what happened around the tournament at Harrenhal. And they will indeed be hard to swallow. 

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8 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

If you look at the list of grooming tactics sexual predators use on their victims, Petyr could check every box in order and it serves to create confusion and self-blame in the thoughts of the victim to keep them compliant.

Something we should keep in mind about Sansa’s POV is that while she has managed to mostly to resist her abusers in her mind and heart, she has still internalized some of the abusive language.  Joffrey and Cersei have repeatedly called her stupid for so long that her self-esteem has been shredded.     

Joffrey and Cersei certainly needed no encouragement from LF to abuse Sansa as they're quite effective at that in their own right, but that Sansa was repeatedly beaten in public by her beloved white knights sounds like LF's idea to the end of breaking her down as you explained.

LF convinced Joff to cut of Ned's head and GRRM said that LF has some influence over him. Guessing that the way she was abused by Joff was in part at least orchestrated by LF. He literally wanted "life is not a song" and that there are no heroes beaten out of her.

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8 hours ago, Seams said:

In relation to lemons, I have to wonder about the blood orange that Arya throws at Sansa at their last breakfast together in King's Landing. It's a different citrus fruit, but must be related to the lemon symbolism - and it is a direct link from Arya to Sansa at a critical turning point in the story. The blood orange is intended as a breakfast food but it becomes a projectile and stains Sansa's dress. The orange is intended for one use, but employed for another. As I've mentioned in other threads, I think it also foreshadows Ned Stark's severed head; the stain on Sansa is that she tells the Lannisters about Ned's plan to leave King's Landing, leading to his arrest and eventual execution.

In regards to blood oranges, they’re often associated with Dorne. Dorne is associated with revenge and long-standing grudges, and in at least two instances, blood oranges are linked to revenge and grudges in themselves: with Arya and when we meet Doran where it’s noted that his blood oranges are overly ripe. Doran’s plans for revenge are certainly overly ripe in the opinion of some.

I don't know how to do spoiler tags to be more specific, but something in the TWoW Alayne chapter seems relevant to this.

I think there’s a lot of layers to the Arya/Sansa blood orange scene. That Beric, Gregor and Riverlands are mentioned in conjunction with Arya having “blood” on her hands seems to foreshadow her Riverland arc and focus on revenge.

Blood oranges might refer to a specific type of revenge, rather than revenge in general. Perhaps blood oranges are not revenge for revenge's sake but a type of "revenge" whose end results in something just, intentionally or not.

 

AGoT Sansa III:

 

The Tower of the Hand seemed so empty after they left that Sansa was even pleased to see Arya when she went down to break her fast. "Where is everyone?" her sister wanted to know as she ripped the skin from a blood orange. "Did Father send them to hunt down Jaime Lannister?"

 

Sansa sighed. "They rode with Lord Beric, to behead Ser Gregor Clegane." She turned to Septa Mordane, who was eating porridge with a wooden spoon. "Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor's head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?" She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night.

 

The septa was horror-struck. "A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you've been near as bad as your sister."

 

"What did Gregor do?" Arya asked.

 

"He burned down a holdfast and murdered a lot of people, women and children too."

 

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. "Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them."

 

"It's not the same," Sansa said. "The Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield. Your butcher's boy attacked the prince."

 

"Liar," Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. "You're horrible," she screamed at her sister. "They should have killed you instead of Lady!"

Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

"Arya started it," Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. "She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I'm going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can't stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid.

When looking at the larger context where Sansa is concerned, Sansa is wearing the betrothal dress given to her by Cersei. It’s described as a rl wedding dress and in-text is linked to marriage. Since Sansa ends up with blood in her lap while wearing a betrothal/wedding dress, this seems to indicate that instead of Joffrey taking Sansa’s virginity, Arya claimed/saved Sansa’s virginity by inadvertently saving her from Joff during the Trident incident. Arya didn’t ruin Sansa’s life, she saved her from Joff, though Sansa perceived it as revenge. Perhaps blood oranges aren’t just revenge, but perceived revenge which leads to a beneficial end. It’s an interesting idea when applied to Doran but without the details of Doran’s plans, it’s hard to tell.

Also, Septa Mordane links Sansa's behavior to Arya's behavior which might foreshadow that Arya and Sansa may one day see eye-to-eye where justice and revenge are concerned.

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