My take on the Tower of Joy

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Wolfgirly said:

Erm that was pretty wild stuff but interesting.

I don't think that Rhaegar wanted to sacrifice Lyanna and the baby. Or what you said being the case.

To clarify, I don't think he intended to sacrifice the baby.

LOL glad you found it interesting at least. But I am curious, do you have any particular reason to think that Rhaegar wouldn't be willing to sacrifice Lyanna?

[sgtpimenta]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Where are you getting that Ned thought he was a "swell guy"? I'm pretty sure this quote is the only reference we have on Ned's opinion:

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

So nothing about him being a swell guy, just that he was the "finest knight" Ned ever saw, and I assume based on context that he is simply referring to fighting abilities. Ned never knew Arthur. His only major interaction with the man was fighting him to the death.

Nothing about Arthur being a swell guy. Ned just call him the nicest knight ever, in a context where he's describing the Kinksguard (the knightly order Dayne was a member) as a marvel and a shinning lesson to the whole world. So, I guess it's fair to say that Ned liked him alright. If nothing else, we must agree that Ned does not hate Arthur's guts; you don't see Ned praising any Lannister like  in this quote. And by all rights, if Ned knew about this plot of yours, he probably would hate the guys who were about to kill his sister.

I mean, it's often mentioned that Ned remembers Rhaegar in a neutral manner - and that's pretty much used as a evidence that R+L=J was not a kidnapping and raping situation. Do you think Ned would still be neutral about Rhaegar (and Arthur, by extension) if he knew about this whole Lyanna-as-a-human-sacrificial-lamb?

Quote

And all ToJ info could be potentially revealed by Howland Reed, or Bran via the weirnet.

Yes, those seems to be the most likely possibilities. But how Howland Reed knew all about this blood magic fueled by human sacrifice that - according to you - Rhaegar and the 3KG were planing? Which brings me back to the previous question: Ned knew about it?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 minutes ago, sgtpimenta said:

Nothing about Arthur being a swell guy. Ned just call him the nicest knight ever, in a context where he's describing the Kinksguard (the knightly order Dayne was a member) as a marvel and a shinning lesson to the whole world. So, I guess it's fair to say that Ned liked him alright. If nothing else, we must agree that Ned does not hate Arthur's guts; you don't see Ned praising any Lannister like  in this quote. And by all rights, if Ned knew about this plot of yours, he probably would hate the guys who were about to kill his sister.

I mean, it's often mentioned that Ned remembers Rhaegar in a neutral manner - and that's pretty much used as a evidence that R+L=J was not a kidnapping and raping situation. Do you think Ned would still be neutral about Rhaegar (and Arthur, by extension) if he knew about this whole Lyanna-as-a-human-sacrificial-lamb?

Yes, those seems to be the most likely possibilities. But how Howland Reed knew all about this blood magic fueled by human sacrifice that - according to you - Rhaegar and the 3KG were planing? Which brings me back to the previous question: Ned knew about it?

Sorry, I was not clear. I DON'T think that Ned knew about Rhaegar's/Arthur's intentions. I agree that Ned's attitude toward Rhaegar and Arthur are evidence that 1) Ned assumed it was not a rape-Lyanna situation like Robert assumed and 2) Ned didn't know about this Lyanna-sacrifice plan if in fact it existed.

[Prof. Cecily]

The TOJ a gigantic pyre to transform a new-born princess into a dragon rider?

With Wildfire, a dragon egg(?) and to fuel the flames, Lyanna?

Something like a repeat of Summerhall?

Why not.

In such a scenario, wouldn't L and R have to be married?

And if the baby is a boy, is it game over?

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

The TOJ a gigantic pyre to transform a new-born princess into a dragon rider?

With Wildfire, a dragon egg(?) and to fuel the flames, Lyanna?

Something like a repeat of Summerhall?

Why not.

In such a scenario, wouldn't L and R have to be married?

And if the baby is a boy, is it game over?

Marriage is just a piece of paper . I don't think a formal, legally recognized marriage is a necessary component of blood magic, just love.

And no, I just think Rhaegar was expecting a daughter based on his naming scheme. Dany even notes at one point that Visenya is missing. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, I think Dany is Visenya, daughter of Rhaegar, born at the ToJ, which would make that line really funny.

[kissdbyfire]

15 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL we don't.  

If you can find a quote that says otherwise when unfettered by hungry elephants I will be surprised. Here is the main quote where we get the info from Cat:

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

So we don't know how much time has passed between Robb's birth and Cat arriving at WF. The only thing we know for sure is that Jon's wet nurse is still there, and presumably still nursing, which implies Jon is likely younger than 24 months, but that's as accurate as we can get without more info. A lot of people assume it was about 1 year because Cat says "they had spent that year apart", but "that year" is simply referring to the first year of their marriage, in which Ned had purportedly fathered Jon.

So, we have this quote.

ASoS, Catelyn V

“She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned’s solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin.”

Robb was conceived on Cat and Ned's wedding night and Ned rode to war I'mmediately afterwards. The war lasts "close to a year" and we have Cat's thoughts about how she and Ned were apart for almost one year. Then Cat thinks about arriving in Winterfell with "Robb at her breast". So, we don't know exactly how much time passed between Robb's birth and Cat and him arriving at Winterfell but we can have a pretty good idea: a few months at most. 

[Prof. Cecily]

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Marriage is just a piece of paper . I don't think a formal, legally recognized marriage is a necessary component of blood magic, just love.

And no, I just think Rhaegar was expecting a daughter based on his naming scheme. Dany even notes at one point that Visenya is missing. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, I think Dany is Visenya, daughter of Rhaegar, born at the ToJ, which would make that line really funny.

True, just a piece of paper. 

But one that might stay the wrath of House Stark. One thing is having a 14 year-old maid seduced into being a prince's mistress, another is providing a princess to a royal house.

What was Rhaegar's goal or aim, anyway?

When I read about the prophecies here:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_prince_that_was_promised

I get the sense of a mish-mashed muddle.

What's your take on this?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, we have this quote.

ASoS, Catelyn V

“She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion. We made Robb that night, though; we made a king together. And after the war, at Winterfell, I had love enough for any woman, once I found the good sweet heart beneath Ned’s solemn face. There is no reason Edmure should not find the same, with his Roslin.”

Robb was conceived on Cat and Ned's wedding night and Ned rode to war I'mmediately afterwards. The war lasts "close to a year" and we have Cat's thoughts about how she and Ned were apart for almost one year. Then Cat thinks about arriving in Winterfell with "Robb at her breast". So, we don't know exactly how much time passed between Robb's birth and Cat and him arriving at Winterfell but we can have a pretty good idea: a few months at most. 

Cat never thinks about being apart for "almost one year". And she does not think about arriving at WF with Robb at her breast, she associates that with Riverrun. We cannot conclude that it was only a few months. The big point here is that Ned and Cat did not teleport to WF immediately the moment the war ended. In fact, the entire ToJ journey itself took place after the war ended.

For example, basing everything around the start of the rebellion, Cat marries Ned about 2-3 months into the war. The ToJ, by my logic (based on that SSM), was about 17 months after the start of the rebellion in order for Dany to be "probably 8-9 months younger than Jon". After the ToJ, Ned traveled to Starfall, then to KL, maybe spent at least a little time in KL, and finally made the long trip home. And at some point Ned sent for Cat and she traveled from Riverrun to WF. So Ned's post ToJ journey to WF plus Cat's journey to WF could feasibly be anywhere from a few weeks to a several months. Let's say hypothetically it was 6 months between the ToJ and Cat's arrival at WF. That would put Cat's meeting with baby Jon 23 months from the start of the war, Jon would be around 14 months old and Robb would be around 11 months old.

So let's say, again hypothetically, that Cat didn't even want to look at Jon and that Ned instructed the wet nurse to keep Jon away from Cat as much as possible. Do you think Cat would get a glimpse of baby Jon and be suspicious? In that hypothetical but potentially accurate scenario, I don't think she would be. And for all we know it may have been even longer than that between the ToJ and Cat arriving at WF, which would only make it easier to lie about Jon's age. The only hard fact giving us insight is that Jon's wet nurse was still there, and it would be odd for Cat to refer to her as the wet nurse if she was no longer nursing Jon at that point, so Jon is probably ~24 months or younger when Cat meets him.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

True, just a piece of paper. 

But one that might stay the wrath of House Stark. One thing is having a 14 year-old maid seduced into being a prince's mistress, another is providing a princess to a royal house.

What was Rhaegar's goal or aim, anyway?

When I read about the prophecies here:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_prince_that_was_promised

I get the sense of a mish-mashed muddle.

What's your take on this?

LOL in modern society marriage typically means more than just a piece of paper (although my parents did get married purely to save money on taxes), but in feudal society it was very much just a legal contract/alliance for purely political purposes. Love typically didn't come into it, especially on the part of the woman, who was effectively being sold for breeding (like Lyanna and Robert).

As for his political goals, I think his original plans were destroyed/sabotaged when Brandon ran off to KL. Lyanna had run off with Rhaegar, and someone told Brandon that Lyanna had been kidnapped when he was on his way to marry Cat, and they may have falsely told him Lyanna was in KL too. He foolishly ran to KL, Aerys took him prisoner, and thus, the rebellion ensued. If that hadn't happened, I think we may have seen Rhaegar attempt to form an alliance with Rickard and promise to make his child by Lyanna his heir. In fact, I think Rhaegar may have been attempting to force Rickard's hand by first impregnating Lyanna and then making an offer of alliance that Rickard would be forced to accept, since Rhaegar had removed the cornerstone of the Stark-Baratheon alliance by sabotaging the Lyanna-Robert marriage. It would have been a dick move, but one Rhaegar considered necessary.

As for the PtwP prophecy, we have to keep in mind that Rhaegar had books that we don't. Yes, we the readers get the sense of a mish-mashed muddle, but Rhaegar clearly had more insight than we do based on Maester Aemon's comments on his prophecy-related conversations with Rhaegar. Rhaegar was convinced that his child or children were the PtwP, not himself, and we can pretty safely assume that Rhaegar's primary goal was to fulfill the prophecy and defeat the Others in the Long Night 2.0. And I think he wanted a child with Lyanna not because he loved her, but because he realized she had the powerful genes necessary to skinchange a horse after she was the KotLT, and Rhaegar needed powerful genes for his prophecy-babies. And just to clarify, I think he married Elia for the same reason, but it was somewhat apparent by the tourney at Harrenhal that Elia would not be physically able to give birth to 2 more children (she was bedridden for 6 months after Rhaenys), so Rhaegar was actively looking for another special woman. From this perspective, frankly, Lyanna was too perfect an opportunity for Rhaegar to pass on. He had to try to have a child with her to defeat the Others (in his mind).

[maudisdottir]

29 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The ToJ, by my logic (based on that SSM), was about 17 months after the start of the rebellion in order for Dany to be "probably 8-9 months younger than Jon".

Sorry, I'm not following. What does the SSM have to do with Dany and the TOJ? In the books I mean, not in your imagination.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

52 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Sorry, I'm not following. What does the SSM have to do with Dany and the TOJ? In the books I mean, not in your imagination.

Well, you sure do have a friendly attitude . But I'll answer you anyways. 

The SSM said that Dany is 8-9 months younger than Jon, and I am arguing that Dany, not Jon, was born at the ToJ and that B+A=J. For all this to be true, the only timeline that reasonably fits is if Jon was conceived in the Black Cells right before Brandon's execution, and thus been born 8-9 months into the war, close enough to Robb's age that Ned can claim Jon is younger than Robb. And therefore, it follows that the ToJ would have been somewhere from 16-18 months from the start of the war, purely based on that SSM.

I'm not making shit up. I only think things are true based on evidence from the books, not my imagination. You don't have to be so condescending, especially since I bet I know wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy more than you about the books.  See, how does my arrogant condescension make you feel? Not great I bet.

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, I had a long reply almost ready and then the dingo ate it!

I'll work on a proper reply in the near future but wanted to say two things now. 

First, Cat does think that she and Ned spent a year apart.

AGoT, Catelyn II

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

 

Second, the war lasted "close to a year". To me that's 9 - 10 months. 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons, I had a long reply almost ready and then the dingo ate it!

I'll work on a proper reply in the near future but wanted to say two things now. 

First, Cat does think that she and Ned spent a year apart.

AGoT, Catelyn II

Catelyn tensed at the mention of the name. Ned felt the anger in her, and pulled away.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

 

Second, the war lasted "close to a year". To me that's 9 - 10 months. 

 

Yes, she refers to spending "that year apart", but it is in the context of talking about Ned fathering a bastard. "that year" is specifically referring to the year in which Ned purportedly fathered Jon. The language is ambiguous as to how long they actually spent apart. I am aware that most people have constructed a rough timeline using the same faulty assumptions about this specific quote that you have (no offense ), but the language is more ambiguous than everyone makes it out to be. 

As I said, I am not arguing that the war lasted longer than a year, simply that Ned and Cat definitely did not teleport to WF immediately at the end of the war, and we don't know how long they did take to both get to WF. Also keep in mind that the entire ToJ adventure happens after the war is already over.

Darn that dingo, I hate when that happens  

[Prof. Cecily]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

As for his political goals, I think his original plans were destroyed/sabotaged when Brandon ran off to KL. Lyanna had run off with Rhaegar, and someone told Brandon that Lyanna had been kidnapped when he was on his way to marry Cat, and they may have falsely told him Lyanna was in KL too. He foolishly ran to KL, Aerys took him prisoner, and thus, the rebellion ensued.

I thought the rebellion ensued as a protest on the part of Lord Jon Arryn when called upon to send Aerys the heads of his ward, Ned and Robert. Ah well, wanting to learn is why I'm here!

If that hadn't happened, I think we may have seen Rhaegar attempt to form an alliance with Rickard and promise to make his child by Lyanna his heir. In fact, I think Rhaegar may have been attempting to force Rickard's hand by first impregnating Lyanna and then making an offer of alliance that Rickard would be forced to accept, since Rhaegar had removed the cornerstone of the Stark-Baratheon alliance by sabotaging the Lyanna-Robert marriage. It would have been a dick move, but one Rhaegar considered necessary.

How could that be? He had an heir, one apparently he considered TPTWP.  Aegon.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

As for the PtwP prophecy, we have to keep in mind that Rhaegar had books that we don't. Yes, we the readers get the sense of a mish-mashed muddle, but Rhaegar clearly had more insight than we do based on Maester Aemon's comments on his prophecy-related conversations with Rhaegar.

Yet, at the end of the day, Maester Aemon considered Rhaegar to have been completely mistaken, CMIIW.

That is to say, the entire escapade with Lyanna was a wild goose chase.

Rhaegar was convinced that his child or children were the PtwP, not himself, and we can pretty safely assume that Rhaegar's primary goal was to fulfill the prophecy and defeat the Others in the Long Night 2.0. And I think he wanted a child with Lyanna not because he loved her, but because he realized she had the powerful genes necessary to skinchange a horse after she was the KotLT, and Rhaegar needed powerful genes for his prophecy-babies.

Could you explain that about Lyanna as a skin changer? In any case, iff he really needed such powerful genes, why not wait for his sister Rhaella to flower and oblige her to bear the children needed? It's the Targaryen genes that count, IIRC.

And just to clarify, I think he married Elia for the same reason, but it was somewhat apparent by the tourney at Harrenhal that Elia would not be physically able to give birth to 2 more children (she was bedridden for 6 months after Rhaenys), so Rhaegar was actively looking for another special woman. From this perspective, frankly, Lyanna was too perfect an opportunity for Rhaegar to pass on. He had to try to have a child with her to defeat the Others (in his mind).

 

What signs were there in Rhaegar's times the Others were going to be an up-coming threat? I thought this happened around the time ASoIaF begins. Sorry to be so obtuse and I appreciate your patience answering me.

 

[Wolfgirly]

On 01/06/2017 at 1:43 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

To clarify, I don't think he intended to sacrifice the baby.

LOL glad you found it interesting at least. But I am curious, do you have any particular reason to think that Rhaegar wouldn't be willing to sacrifice Lyanna?

Because he was in love with her.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, she refers to spending "that year apart", but it is in the context of talking about Ned fathering a bastard. "that year" is specifically referring to the year in which Ned purportedly fathered Jon. The language is ambiguous as to how long they actually spent apart. I am aware that most people have constructed a rough timeline using the same faulty assumptions about this specific quote that you have (no offense ), but the language is more ambiguous than everyone makes it out to be. 

As I said, I am not arguing that the war lasted longer than a year, simply that Ned and Cat definitely did not teleport to WF immediately at the end of the war, and we don't know how long they did take to both get to WF. Also keep in mind that the entire ToJ adventure happens after the war is already over.

Darn that dingo, I hate when that happens  

She's referring to the "year" of the war, which is not a whole year but close to a year. Given the time it would take for them to arrive at Winterfell, it may be that they did spend one year apart. Can you please expand on why you think the language is ambiguous in regards to how long they were apart? 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

She's referring to the "year" of the war, which is not a whole year but close to a year. Given the time it would take for them to arrive at Winterfell, it may be that they did spend one year apart. Can you please expand on why you think the language is ambiguous in regards to how long they were apart? 

You are mistaken, she is not referring to the "year" of the war, but the first "year" of their marriage. And sure, let's carefully examine the relevant parts:

It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign.

So that first part is simply stating that Cat was told Ned had fathered a bastard in the first year of their marriage. And this is already more ambiguous than it seems, because it is technically possible that Ned did father a bastard via the fisherman's daughter who we have never met, and Cat actually heard a rumor about that bastard. But ignore that if you want. What is more important is the interpretation of the next line:

He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun.

This is the crux of the issue. When she refers to "that year", she is very specifically talking about the first year of their marriage, the year in which Ned purportedly fathered a bastard and the year in which she heard about the rumor of said bastard. Just pretend for a moment that they ended up spending the first 5 years of their marriage apart. That sentence would still be perfectly acceptable and correctly written. She wouldn't have thought to herself, for example:

He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent the first 5 years of their marriage apart, ...

She wouldn't think that, because the other 4 years are irrelevant, extraneous information in the context of that statement. The only chunk of time that matters is the period in which Ned was ostensibly horny and physically far away from Cat resulting in getting a girl pregnant.

So although the language is misleading, it is accurate whether they spent just 1 year apart in total or 5 years or 10 years or 37 years.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Wolfgirly said:

Because he was in love with her.

Well yeah, he might have been in love with her. But he is trying to fulfill the Azor Ahai Reborn prophecy, and the legend of Azor Ahai is specifically mainly about sacrificing the woman he loved. If it means stopping the Others, I think Rhaegar would have been more than willing to sacrifice Lyanna.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I thought the rebellion ensued as a protest on the part of Lord Jon Arryn when called upon to send Aerys the heads of his ward, Ned and Robert. Ah well, wanting to learn is why I'm here!

Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon and subsequently asked Jon Arryn for the heads of Ned and Robert. And Rickard only went to KL in the first place to get Brandon back. So the whole rebellion probably would have been avoided if Brandon had just married Cat like he was about to instead of running off to KL.

How could that be? He had an heir, one apparently he considered TPTWP.  Aegon.

Aemon tells Sam that the dragon must have three heads, but he is too old and frail to be one. And in that vision in the HOTU where Rhaegar calls Aegon TPTWP, he also says there must be a third child, and he looks at Dany, who I am arguing is in fact his third child. Rhaegar was definitely shooting for 3 kids.

Yet, at the end of the day, Maester Aemon considered Rhaegar to have been completely mistaken, CMIIW.

That is to say, the entire escapade with Lyanna was a wild goose chase.

Aemon was mostly referring to the fact that they were looking for a male the entire time and never realized that TPTWP could potentially be female. He didn't think Rhaegar's line of thinking was incorrect, just his conclusion about Aegon. And Aemon also thinks Aegon is dead at that point, which would eliminate him as a contender.

If Dany is Lyanna's daughter, than the escapade ended up being completely necessary to create TPTWP, assuming Aemon is correct when he says the dragons prove it. Of course, I think prophecy is all just a big trick anyways, but there you go.

Could you explain that about Lyanna as a skin changer? In any case, iff he really needed such powerful genes, why not wait for his sister Rhaella to flower and oblige her to bear the children needed? It's the Targaryen genes that count, IIRC.

LOL because Rhaella was his MOM!!  

We don't know that it's only Targaryen genes that "count" and that is a huge subject of debate. At a minimum, there are obviously non-Targaryen genes that allow for things like skinchanging, which is quite similar to riding a dragon. As for Lyanna being a skinchanger, there is a small but convincing amount of evidence that Lyanna and Brandon were both skinchangers. They are described as "centaurs" and according to Ned both of them had too much "wolf's blood". And most importantly, Lyanna was probably the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Harrenhal tourney based on the story from Meera. If a 14-year-old girl can defeat several fully grown men at jousting, it is extremely likely she is a skinchanger and was telepathically connected to her horse, allowing her to ride perfectly. Keep in mind that jousting is a very size-dependent competition. The more mass you have, the harder you hit your opponent and the harder you are to knock off your horse. That's why Little Walder (the big one) defeats Big Walder (the little one) at jousting, even though Big Walder rides better.

What signs were there in Rhaegar's times the Others were going to be an up-coming threat? I thought this happened around the time ASoIaF begins. Sorry to be so obtuse and I appreciate your patience answering me.

The entire Prince that was Promised prophecy is referring to a return of Azor Ahai, the hero who vaguely led the forces of men against evil during the Long Night and triumphed over darkness. And we are told that at least in Westeros, there was a great battle against the Others. So while there were no signs yet of the Others coming back, Rhaegar definitely anticipated that men will be fighting something when the Long Night comes again, even if he didn't necessarily connect it to the Others (though I assume he probably did).

You're welcome  

[Clegane'sPup]

Each time I try to figure out Robert’s Rebblion, Eddards travels and Jon Snow’s birth I can’t come up with a satisfactory conclusion. The whole thing seems to be purposely written wacky. I doesn’t help that some material was included in the app & world book (neither of which I own).

It seems to me Lyannna goes missing, Brandon & his father die at KL, Arryn refuses to give up Eddard & Robert and rebellion breaks out. Eddard, now Lord of WF has to make his way over mountains, across land and water and maybe by river (White Knife) to WF. Then he calls his banners and heads south in time to help Robert at the Battle of the Bells.

I would say the Rebellion started when Arryn called his banners, although the actual fighting seems to have started at Gulltown.

Did Eddard & Cat marry before or after the Battle of the Bells? My opinion is they married before the BotB’s.

Taking a look at some of the stuff Cat says:   Eddard fathered a bastard while off fighting in the Rebellion. Yes, “and they spent that year apart” is ambiguous. She stayed safe at Riverrun. After the wars were over she went to WF. More ambiguity, “Ned brought his bastard home with him.”  This implies to me that Eddard brought Jon to WF. That he bypassed Riverrun. So when Cat arrived at WF Eddard, Jon & his wet nurse already there.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II     Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.    He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

She also says after her marriage to Eddard, he stayed scarcely a fortnight before riding off to war. AND nine moons later Robb was born at Riverrun while Eddard was still warring in the south. Again I ask myself did the marriage take place before or after the BotB’s.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X     Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

The below quote has one interesting about Eddard, “though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day.” She married a stranger, said her goodbyes and he went off to King, and woman who bore his bastard.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI     And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.   I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

Then I end up back where I started from, scratching my head and looking for any clear, concise information as to the curious sequence of events that seem to start with Lyanna.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII    "Brandon was nothing like you."    "If you say so. You and he were to wed."    "He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

Maybe one day Martin will clarify what happened when. Cat did say Eddard stayed with her scarcely a fortnight and nine moons after Robb was born. She also said she waited out the wars safely at Riverrun. When she & Robb arrived at WF she discovered Eddard had brought home his bastard & a wet nurse.

I will bow down and thank the old and the new gods if someone can figure out where and when Jon was conceived. Conceived, not born. Apparently he was born at Rhaegar’s tower of joy. Was he born 7, 8 or 9 moons after conception? Arrrrrgh, face palm.

Thanks.