Blueroses

Jon legitimacy foreshadowing ?

201 posts in this topic

27 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

The only reason why GRRM (D&D too) tried this hard to make Jon Snow a trueborn is that the core prophecy said "prince that was promised". If he was born as a bastard, then this is a false prophecy. In order to achieve this, GRRM decided to introduce polygamy. D&D decided to use annulment. 

Honestly I think this is a bad writing. A poor bastard boy eventually found himself a lost prince and heir to throne? So cliche. 

I would prefer jon is son of Ashara and Ned. He should have been a true stark if Brandon and Lyanna did not behave stupidly. 

Actually, no, we don't know how GRRM will do it since that hasn't been revealed in the books yet. Annulment may be coming in the show, or it may have been leaked purposely as misdirection. 

But in both cases, something will be revealed. We know that for sure.

In some ways, I actually kind of agree with you with respect to George's use of the one true heir/king in hiding fantasy trope. I think a more interesting story would have Jon sort of rising on his own merits to lead the north and then becoming an ally and perhaps more to Dany, which yes, is what's happening, but we also know there's a reveal coming.

 

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On 09/08/2017 at 10:32 PM, hallam said:

There is also a character called Jon Con who drops a red herring, he has it fourth hand that the maesters told R+E that Ellia could not have another baby. That is absolutely the only evidence against R+E = J and it is no evidence at all, not least the name of the character tells us that it is a red herring.

Well, this and the fact that Jon Snow looks like a Stark. So much so that various characters comment on it, including those who have no wish to see it (i.e. Catelyn). Arya is so concerned that she might be a bastard because she looks like Jon and not her other siblings that she had to go to Jon for reassurance. Tyrion sees that Jon has more of the North in him than his siblings. Catelyn does too, which upsets her greatly. Where would the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell get the Stark look from?

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7 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Where would the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell get the Stark look from?

There is a "theory" I stumbled across that claim Jon had an illusion/glamour cast upon him as a child. Kind of like Melisandre's illusion of youth.

I kid you not. 

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12 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

There is a "theory" I stumbled across that claim Jon had an illusion/glamour cast upon him as a child. Kind of like Melisandre's illusion of youth.

I kid you not. 

I think I read that one a while back. Talk about overcomplicating things.....

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1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

Well, this and the fact that Jon Snow looks like a Stark. So much so that various characters comment on it, including those who have no wish to see it (i.e. Catelyn). Arya is so concerned that she might be a bastard because she looks like Jon and not her other siblings that she had to go to Jon for reassurance. Tyrion sees that Jon has more of the North in him than his siblings. Catelyn does too, which upsets her greatly. Where would the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell get the Stark look from?

 

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

There is a "theory" I stumbled across that claim Jon had an illusion/glamour cast upon him as a child. Kind of like Melisandre's illusion of youth.

I kid you not. 

Much less complicated than suggesting Lyanna bedded Rheagar against character.

It also explains the reason why fake Aegon is needed in the books but not in the show - they don't want to recast Kit Harrington's part. The book has an anomalous Targ and a glamour spell that switches looks. The show has a glamour spell that does not require a pair. 

With the fake Aegon/Jon switch, Lyanna's role becomes identical to Brienne: Female knight protecting the child of Rheagar. The glamor spell is blood magic and it costs her life. Tywin's role foreshadows Littlefinger.

Not only does the theory fit all the clues, it explains the absence of the fake Aegon plotline in the show and the lack of the Mance/Rattleshirt glamor.

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I sometimes wonder if Rhaegar found out that Elia had played him false, and that Rhaenys and Aegon weren't his at all. It might explain his apparent indifference towards his (first) wife and family, and his seeking out of Lyanna

I always thought that Ashara Dayne as Jon's Mum was a necessary cover on Ned's part, just in case Jon had the traditional platinum hair and purple eyes of the Targs

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18 minutes ago, Smokefall said:

I sometimes wonder if Rhaegar found out that Elia had played him false, and that Rhaenys and Aegon weren't his at all. It might explain his apparent indifference towards his (first) wife and family, and his seeking out of Lyanna

I always thought that Ashara Dayne as Jon's Mum was a necessary cover on Ned's part, just in case Jon had the traditional platinum hair and purple eyes of the Targs

You know what I was just thinking this myself after reading and re reading this thread over the last couple of days.

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

 

Much less complicated than suggesting Lyanna bedded Rheagar against character.

It also explains the reason why fake Aegon is needed in the books but not in the show - they don't want to recast Kit Harrington's part. The book has an anomalous Targ and a glamour spell that switches looks. The show has a glamour spell that does not require a pair. 

With the fake Aegon/Jon switch, Lyanna's role becomes identical to Brienne: Female knight protecting the child of Rheagar. The glamor spell is blood magic and it costs her life. Tywin's role foreshadows Littlefinger.

Not only does the theory fit all the clues, it explains the absence of the fake Aegon plotline in the show and the lack of the Mance/Rattleshirt glamor.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Completely stumped. 

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2 hours ago, princess_snow said:

I sometimes wonder if Rhaegar found out that Elia had played him false, and that Rhaenys and Aegon weren't his at all.

Ehhh... possible, in the sense that anything is possible, but nothing anywhere, at all, suggests this is the case. It's even less likely than the absurd idea that Elia was a-okay with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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1 hour ago, Pecan said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. Completely stumped. 

So there is people who believe that when Lyanna gave birth to Jon used a glamor spell that cost her life... Do you really believe that?

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24 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

So there is people who believe that when Lyanna gave birth to Jon used a glamor spell that cost her life... Do you really believe that?

No, we think Ellia is the mother, Rheagar the father, just like the legit targ heir would be.

There is nothing other than Jon's looks against it and we know looks are mutable. 

There is no way that the Lyanna described would betray her family in the way suggested. Lyanna is Arya and Brienne. If neither of them would do something, Lyanna would not.

Yes, it is suggested the baby is Lyanna's but never actually shown.

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On 8/8/2017 at 8:58 AM, Krishtotter said:

Undeniably, as others have correctly noted, the screenwriters "doth protest too much" when it comes to Jon's bastard status. The scene with Davos and Missandei is the most egregious instance of this very deliberate trend.

I predict that in episode 7, Sam will find proof somewhere in a hidden manuscript or genealogical tome that Rhaegar and Lyanna were validly married, albeit in a sort of Targaryen state secret during a war; probably at the same time as Dany succumbs to Jon's "brooding" intentions and commits unwitting aunt-nephew incest with him.

I must say though: invest between Dan and Jon is increasingly seeming a logical inevitability on the basis of recent plot developments but I'm feeling somewhat icky regarding what will be, in the end, a positive depiction of incestual sex. For all that we might have come to like Jaime's character, he and his sister are still antagonists in the series. There incest has always been seen in that context.

Danny-Jon sex would be between two protagonists. Hmm.

This must be have determined for D+D (and GRRM) when they would properly reveal RLJ to the audience and other characters ... it has to be after Dany and Jon have already fallen in love.

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1 hour ago, hallam said:

No, we think Ellia is the mother, Rheagar the father, just like the legit targ heir would be.

There is nothing other than Jon's looks against it and we know looks are mutable. 

There is no way that the Lyanna described would betray her family in the way suggested. Lyanna is Arya and Brienne. If neither of them would do something, Lyanna would not.

Yes, it is suggested the baby is Lyanna's but never actually shown.

So, you think she would betray his family for the baby of another woman? Lyanna was no Brienne; yes, we know she had some wildness in her, like Arya has, but it was a 15 years old girl.

Why on earth the honorable Ned would hide Elia's son and raise him like his own??  We know that he was outraged when he knew what had happened with Rhaenys and Aegon; so I can easily picture him , lets say, sending the baby to his grandmother at Dragonstone, or even helping to arrange the escape (not personally, though, but sending another person) of the remanents of the royal family to Essos. But in  no way he would have commited treason, like he did,  for Elia and Rhaegar's son.

Edited by LucyMormont

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10 hours ago, Pecan said:

The theory is that there's something hidden in her tomb that shows she was actually married to Rhaegar, probably the Targaryen marriage robe. I doubt it will come into play in the show. I don't know how that squares with his dream of going deep into the crypts, to the lower levels. 

You just made me think of something.... what if there is something deep down in the crypts, but it's got nothing to do with Lyanna, and everything to do with the Night's King? 

According to Old Nan, Night's King was a Stark.... and what if the secret to destroying all of them, is to destroy the Night King, and the secret to that is in the Winterfell crypts?

And there's Bran the Builder, Brandon the Breaker.... Brandons are everywhere..... (I don't personally like the theory that Bran has caused all of these thing, as if he's actually Bran the Builder, etc).... but refreshing my memory over in the wiki, you can't swing a dead chicken without hitting a Brandon Stark.

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11 hours ago, Styl7 said:

Gerold Hightower was Aerys man.. But Aerys named Viserys his heir and skipped over the children of Rhaegar.

All we have to support this statement, is a line of Maester Yandel in TWOIAF; book that he finished during the reign of Tommen , being his sources some ancient manuscripts of another Archmaester, and for the recent events documents, letters, and hearsay of other maesters in the Citadel. His book by no means has exhausted the research, there is still  material that can bring things to light... and guess who is right now  searching in and  reading all those thousand of letters and papers.

In addition, if  Viserys was the heir, WHY Jon had 3 Kingguards with him, and Viserys none?

Edited by LucyMormont

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7 hours ago, Pecan said:

Actually, no, we don't know how GRRM will do it since that hasn't been revealed in the books yet. Annulment may be coming in the show, or it may have been leaked purposely as misdirection. 

But in both cases, something will be revealed. We know that for sure.

In some ways, I actually kind of agree with you with respect to George's use of the one true heir/king in hiding fantasy trope. I think a more interesting story would have Jon sort of rising on his own merits to lead the north and then becoming an ally and perhaps more to Dany, which yes, is what's happening, but we also know there's a reveal coming.

 

I think the end game won't be far off of what you're saying - or close to it... If I'm not completely missing your point.. :unsure: (I'm more than a little sleep deprived.)

Dany left Daario to oversee The Bay of Dragons while the people choose their own leaders.... 

Democracy.

Jon has twice now been voted/chosen to lead. The Night's Watch & The King in The North, (and no chance he's bending the knee before he saves the world.)

Democracy.

Missande explains to Jon that they chose Dany.

Democracy.

Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. 

I think when Dany and Jon find out who he really is, Dany will bend the knee unconditionally, and without hesitation, because she will understand he must wield her as Lightbringer, because together they are The Prince That Was Promised, and without them saving the world, there will be no Seven anything.... 

I dont think there's going to be an Iron Throne when this is over. It will be made completely unimportant, and that will be a good thing,

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19 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

I think when Dany and Jon find out who he really is, Dany will bend the knee unconditionally

Wow, really? To me, there's nothing in her character to suggest she will do anything of the sort.

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2 hours ago, hallam said:

No, we think Ellia is the mother, Rheagar the father, just like the legit targ heir would be.

Anyone that Rhaegar married, then fathered a child with, would be in The Line Of Succession, being all marriages would be legal since we're talking about Westeros, and not Earth Family Law. Targaryens seems to write their own law most of the time anyway. Either way, it's GRRM's world, and his rules. If he says they're legally married, then they are. As has been pointed out repeatedly, Kingsguard would never be at the ToJ if Lyanna was carrying a bastard. And never would fight to the death over one.

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There is nothing other than Jon's looks against it and we know looks are mutable.

There are three/two Kingsguard who fight to the death. Months after Elia's death. Ignoring this fact, is ignoring GRRM.

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There is no way that the Lyanna described would betray her family in the way suggested. Lyanna is Arya and Brienne. If neither of them would do something, Lyanna would not.

"Lyanna as described..." She's called "beautiful and willful." Also, "Wolf Girl." "Wild." "ˆRides like a Northman." I honestly don't know what you read to make you think she was some kind of a prudish nun. I don't disagree with you that she's got bravery and tenacity of Arya and Brienne, but they're not prudish nuns either. 

Sexual Females ≠ Evil Whores/Bad Women

Lyanna is Lyanna. She's a wild wolf girl who followed her heart and is likely the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 

I see no reason 15 yr old Lyanna Stark, "as described", wouldn't run away with someone as amazing, intelligent, witty, charming, gorgeous, sexy, (as described), and who is madly in love with her, as Rhaegar Targaryen. I think Lyanna definitely would.

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Yes, it is suggested the baby is Lyanna's but never actually shown.

I'm assuming you're talking about the show, since there's never a baby mentioned in the ToJ chapter.

Are you really suggesting the baby that's handed to young Ned in that scene isn't Lyanna's? That they would put Lyanna in a bed, bleeding, burning with fever, knowing she dying, making Ned PROMISE... all for someone else's newly born infant? They they'd write a scene and not explain why Lyanna is dying if it's NOT about giving brith out in the middle of nowhere?

Whose would it be? 

 

 

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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2 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

So, you think she would betray his family for the baby of another woman? Lyanna was no Brienne; yes, we know she had some wildness in her, like Arya has, but it was a 15 years old girl.

Why on earth the honorable Ned would hide Elia's son and raise him like his own??  We know that he was outraged when he knew what had happened with Rhaenys and Aegon; so I can easily picture him , lets say, sending the baby to his grandmother at Dragonstone, or even helping to arrange the escape (not personally, though, but sending another person) of the remanents of the royal family to Essos. But in  no way he would have commited treason, like he did,  for Elia and Rhaegar's son.

 

Ned told Jon that he was a Stark and had his blood. That wasn't a lie. He is half-Stark and does have his uncle's blood.

He was Lyanna's son, no doubt. 

Edited by Krishtotter

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26 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Wow, really? To me, there's nothing in her character to suggest she will do anything of the sort.

She'll be in love with him.

She idolizes Rhaegar, because everyone who tells her about him, actually met him and they did as well. So when Rhaegar's son is revealed, she'll love him even more. 

Daenerys Targaryen ≠ Veruca Salt.

I think she's very keen on actually being the Rightful Heir. I honestly think that part is important to her - for her family. When she understands it restores her lineage/family to it's rightful place, it's just not actually her, why would she suddenly become some 20th Century Earth uneducated child who demands to play QUEEN, because that's who she's believed she is for so long?

I don't see Dany living a lie, nor usurping her own family.

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