Quentyn possible arc in Winds of Winter?

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

I remember Bran and Rickon's heads mounted on poles over Winterfell, and I remember Mance Rayder being burned to death, till Jon ordered him out of his misery with an arrow.  Yet somehow Bran, Rickon and Mance are all still alive.

True, those situations are not identical.  True, if the Quentyn theory is correct, will not have done the exact same thing in the exact same was.  But really, I would not expect him to do the exact same thing in the exact same way.

Like I said, they are not remotely similar.

[UnFit Finlay]

16 hours ago, Makk said:

He is dead, his has more meaning for the plot dead than alive. His death is likely to cause tension between Dany and Dorne (but nothing that can't be overcome). He was also part of Danys womb prophecy.

I've said it before but I think his death will end up being very significant.

The Tattered Prince's price for helping Quentyn was Pentos. Quentyn signed a contract promising that, in the event of his death, Dorne would fulfill the agreement and deliver Pentos in his place.

Meanwhile Barristan has made the same promise on Daenery's behalf. When she returns to Meereen, she's going to have to decide whether to attack the home of Illyrio, who she beliefs has been nothing but kind to her, or dishonour Barristan. Fortunately, Tyrion is also in Meereen and he knows EXACTLY what Illyrio had planned for her. If he tells Dany (and I see no reason for him to keep silent) then Pentos is in a world of trouble.

Which brings up Aegon. He doesn't know about Illyrio's schemes. If Dany attacks Pentos then all he'll see is the "Mad Queen" attacking his benefactor and he'll feel obligated to try and stop her. Especially when the stories of how Quentyn died reaches him.

I haven't read any of the spoiler chapters yet but it seems logical that Aegon and Arianne will at least be betrothed, if not flat out married, which will put Doran in the position of having to choose between betraying his daughter and her husband, or dishonouring his dead son.

[Bael's Bastard]

20 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Except for the burnt-beyond-recognition part.  You guys just keep falling for the old "burnt beyond recognition" trick.

As horrific as Quentyn's burns are described to be, at no point is it stated or implied that he was unrecognizable to Missandei or Barristan, who both confirm his death.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Amris said:

Preston's Quentyn is alive video is certainly a great exercise in making the most out of highly circumstantial pieces of evidence. In that way I admire it. It would make good training in law school.

However what circumstantial evidence can't do is refute actual proof.

We have that proof here in Quentyn's being aflame in his own POV-chapter, his 2- day stay on the deathbed, his dying and his corpse.

No, we don't have proof. Yes, Quentyn was on fire. That is not necessarily fatal. And then an unrecognizable person dies. No proof it was Quentyn.

14 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As horrific as Quentyn's burns are described to be, at no point is it stated or implied that he was unrecognizable to Missandei or Barristan, who both confirm his death.

Dude... his fucking face was burned off. He had no lips. He was almost certainly not recognizable. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I see no reason to distrust the narrative set before us. So if people want to fantasize about head canon, sure they can. George has never "offed" anyone in a remotely similar manner and had them come back. And if there is anything in this series that strikes you, it's the parallels between certain characters and story arcs.

I have no idea why you are so confident Quentyn is dead. Was he on fire? Yes. And then his pov ended, before we got to see what happened. And then an unrecognizable person died 2 days later. It is certainly possible to survive burns. IDK about you but I have personally been burned without dying. 

And as PJ pointed out, GRRM has already done burned body fake deaths with Mance and the Stark boys. And Dany even pointed out in ADWD, "Burnt bones prove nothing."

It is certainly possible Quentyn is dead but I doubt it.

[Bael's Bastard]

31 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Dude... his fucking face was burned off. He had no lips. He was almost certainly not recognizable. 

Nah, the idea that they did not or could not recognize Quentyn is not stated or implied anywhere. The horrible burns to his face and body are nowhere described as rendering him unrecognizable. That is a figment of the imaginations of those who have claimed it, and has no basis in the text describing Quentyn's clear death.

[UnFit Finlay]

6 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I have no idea why you are so confident Quentyn is dead. Was he on fire? Yes. And then his pov ended, before we got to see what happened. And then an unrecognizable person died 2 days later. It is certainly possible to survive burns. IDK about you but I have personally been burned without dying. 

And as PJ pointed out, GRRM has already done burned body fake deaths with Mance and the Stark boys. And Dany even pointed out in ADWD, "Burnt bones prove nothing."

It is certainly possible Quentyn is dead but I doubt it.

Who is behind it and what's their motive though?

Theon faked Bran and Rickon's deaths because their escape made him look weak and he needed to exert his authority as Prince of Winterfell. Melisandre faked Mance's death because she believed that he'd be a valuable asset against the Others. Even Manderly had a clear motive to fake Davos' death: Convince the Lannisters he was on their side so they'd release his son.

Who gains from people *thinking* that Quentyn is dead? He's in a strange land with no real allies and plenty of possible enemies. We know Barristan isn't behind it, from his own POV, and it would take a major leap to believe that Quentyn himself was capable of coming up with the plot after being badly burned. Who does that leave? Do Drink and Arch really have the means and smarts to pull it off and, again, why? When all they want to do is return to Dorne? That's not to mention the wisdom of making the switch and essentially depriving Quentyn of medical care when he probably still needed it. That takes a lot of confidence in his ability to survive.

Hizdahr wanted rid of him and the Sons of the Harpy can probably use his death against Daenerys, and harm her chances of Westerosi reinforcements, but they gain nothing from him actually being alive.

The other problem I have with this theory is if Quentyn can survive being set on fire at close range by a fully grown dragon then how crap are the dragons? A crossbow would've been more effective.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

43 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nah, the idea that they did not or could not recognize Quentyn is not stated or implied anywhere. The horrible burns to his face and body are nowhere described as rendering him unrecognizable. That is a figment of the imaginations of those who have claimed it, and has no basis in the text describing Quentyn's clear death.

No offense but it sounds like you don't remember the chapter at all.

Quote

After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell’s face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince’s flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

34 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Who is behind it and what's their motive though?

Theon faked Bran and Rickon's deaths because their escape made him look weak and he needed to exert his authority as Prince of Winterfell. Melisandre faked Mance's death because she believed that he'd be a valuable asset against the Others. Even Manderly had a clear motive to fake Davos' death: Convince the Lannisters he was on their side so they'd release his son.

Who gains from people *thinking* that Quentyn is dead? He's in a strange land with no real allies and plenty of possible enemies. We know Barristan isn't behind it, from his own POV, and it would take a major leap to believe that Quentyn himself was capable of coming up with the plot after being badly burned. Who does that leave? Do Drink and Arch really have the means and smarts to pull it off and, again, why? When all they want to do is return to Dorne? That's not to mention the wisdom of making the switch and essentially depriving Quentyn of medical care when he probably still needed it. That takes a lot of confidence in his ability to survive.

Hizdahr wanted rid of him and the Sons of the Harpy can probably use his death against Daenerys, and harm her chances of Westerosi reinforcements, but they gain nothing from him actually being alive.

The other problem I have with this theory is if Quentyn can survive being set on fire at close range by a fully grown dragon then how crap are the dragons? A crossbow would've been more effective.

It sounds like you haven't watched the PJ video. I recommend watching it. I would just be restating his explanations for all of this.

But just to address the dragon fire, the theory is that the dragon never actually breathed fire. It just breathed some really hot dragon breath toward Quentyn, which was hot enough to ignite the oil in his whip. Watch the video 

[TeethGrinder]

Not impossible that he's alive at all - It's certainly plausible based on the text that there could have been a switch. I'm pretty confident he's dead though and I think the theories derive from people wanting more from the arc - But he was there to represent the misguided heroism people can feel, the tragedy that comes with such risks and of course to drive Dorne away from Dany towards Aegon.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, TeethGrinder said:

Not impossible that he's alive at all - It's certainly plausible based on the text that there could have been a switch. I'm pretty confident he's dead though and I think the theories derive from people wanting more from the arc - But he was there to represent the misguided heroism people can feel, the tragedy that comes with such risks and of course to drive Dorne away from Dany towards Aegon.

I am inclined to politely disagree with you there  

I think the theories mostly derive from that one PJ vid. The PJ theory is mostly based on the fact that Quentyn should not have been able to see himself on fire and narrate the very end of his pov chapter if he experienced dragon fire at a lethal temperature. And the brass in the handle of Quentyn's whip did not melt. And more importantly, the dead man's eyes were "pools of pus", but Quentyn specifically shielded his eyes, and saw himself on fire. The only logical explanation, really, is that the oil in Quentyn's whip (whips are maintained with oil, and his whip was specifically described as being old, so it has presumably been coated with oil many times) ignited (oil has a relatively low flash point) from Rhaegal's hot breath, as opposed to full on dragon fire. The descriptions of people/animals dying from dragon fire does not match Quentyn's experience. He didn't even feel any pain at first, which is super odd, because being set on fire is literally one of the most painful things possible. But it would make sense if the oil in his whip starting burning and then spread to his hand and arm.

Quote

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

If Quentyn is dead I will go buy a hat and eat it.  I give it a 95% chance he is badly burned but alive.

Also, Quentyn's mission was never meant to succeed. Doran never intended on making an alliance with Dany. He has been manipulating both his children for years, because he is playing to win. After all, why did Garin's mom lie to Arianne about Quentyn's adventure? Clearly, she was doing the bidding of Doran:

Quote

Prince Doran was still pretending that her brother was with Lord Yronwood, but Garin's mother had seen him at the Planky Town, posing as a merchant. One of his companions had a lazy eye, the same as Cletus Yronwood, Lord Anders's randy son. A maester traveled with them too, a maester skilled in tongues. My brother is not as clever as he thinks. A clever man would have left from Oldtown, even if it meant a longer voyage. In Oldtown he might have gone unrecognized. Arianne had friends amongst the orphans of the Planky Town, and some had grown curious as to why a prince and a lord's son might be traveling under false names and seeking passage across the narrow sea. One of them had crept through a window of a night, tickled the lock on Quentyn's little strongbox, and found the scrolls within.

Arianne would have given much and more to know that this secret trip across the narrow sea was Quentyn's own doing, and his alone . . . but parchments he had carried had been sealed with the sun and spear of Dorne. Garin's cousin had not dared break the seal to read them, but . . .

What strongbox? And what are these multiple sealed scrolls she speaks of? This obviously does not match the real description of the marriage pact, which was not sealed and was kept in Quentyn's boot.

Quote

Stone-faced, the stocky lad bent, unlaced his boot, and drew a yellowed parchment from a hidden flap within.

"This is your gift? A scrap of writing?" Daario snatched the parchment out of the Dornishman's hands and unrolled it, squinting at the seals and signatures. "Very pretty, all the gold and ribbons, but I do not read your Westerosi scratchings."

"Bring it to the queen," Ser Barristan commanded. "Now."

Dany could feel the anger in the hall. "I am only a young girl, and young girls must have their gifts," she said lightly. "Daario, please, you must not tease me. Give it here."

The parchment was written in the Common Tongue. The queen unrolled it slowly, studying the seals and signatures. When she saw the name Ser Willem Darry, her heart beat a little faster. She read it over once, and then again.

Clearly, Doran is a master player who has been deceiving his own children.

[Dorian Martell's son]

Remember folks. Everyone who is dead is secretly alive. That included the person who was literally burned alive in his own P.O.V. chapter where he sees himself burning from head to toe and screaming and then shown his death by another P.O.V. character 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 8/10/2017 at 1:34 PM, Cregan Storm said:

If Quentyn is alive in Winds of Winter what kind of story arc could you see him following? I like to think that he will be a darker character marked by his scars. I believe he will take control of the windblown after the Battle of Mereen.

He will go to the Vale and become the new leader of the Burned Men who will consider him a god.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

32 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Remember folks. Everyone who is dead is secretly alive. That included the person who was literally burned alive in his own P.O.V. chapter where he sees himself burning from head to toe and screaming and then shown his death by another P.O.V. character 

Prove it.

[Dorian Martell's son]

39 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Prove it.

Read chapter 68 and 70 in dance

[Universal Sword Donor]

49 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Prove it.

Ned is alive too. Heads are reattachable just like skin and flesh is able to be imaginarily regenerated.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

35 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Read chapter 68 and 70 in dance

 

25 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Ned is alive too. Heads are reattachable just like skin and flesh is able to be imaginarily regenerated.

Sure, don't either of you bother addressing any of the arguments. Who would do that? Just be condescending instead. That's super fun and productive. 

[Davjos]

I typically love these type of discussions and don't want to shit on anyones parade, but I'm curious why people  (like @40 Thousand Skeletons) so easily dismiss the evidence he's dead but cling on the evidence he's alive. Could a switch have been made? Yes. Is it likely? Imo, no. If so, by who? And Why? And No, I'm not going to watch any PJ vid to find a motive, because I don't find them entertaining. 

 

He literally sees himself burn. And he shields his eyes with one arm, not his hands. So claiming he shouldn't be able to see himself is pretty speculative at best. You can shield your eyes from the sun, then look down and see yourself. I do like the oil on the whip thing, and the fact the brass isn't melting is suspicious. I don't know if my knowledge is lacking but what was the last time Rhaegal breathed fire before this incident. Maybe his fire is just a thad weaker than Drogon's. Have we ever seen Rhaegal melt metal? 

I also find the fact the knight says his Prince's eyes were pools and his skin gone to point to the fact he DOES recognize him, not he doesn't. 

All the evidence boils down to the fact Quentyn has an almost surreal experience burning, a style choice employed in almost all of literature/fiction and even non-fiction. How often do we see people looking at their gunshotwound and only then feeling the pain etc. I feel GRRM took a slight stylistic choice with the way of the burning that almost represents the way that Quentyn's and the stereotypical hero's optimism doesn't fade, even in the face of certain defeat/death. As he's burning he still thinks he'll ride a dragon and marry Dany, so he doesn't feel the pain, until all hope fades from him.

 

Without any other evidence provided in further books I will continue to think people who believe Quentyn survived to be reaching. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Sure, don't either of you bother addressing any of the arguments. Who would do that? Just be condescending instead. That's super fun and productive. 

there is no need to address baseless crackpot arguments supporting theories founded in pure fantasy about someone else's magnum opus. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

11 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Sure, don't either of you bother addressing any of the arguments. Who would do that? Just be condescending instead. That's super fun and productive. 

I've addressed and dismissed it several times in thread. The best "evidence"'is that everyone was wearing green same outfit. The best part of that evidence is ignoring where the hell anyone else gets burnt damn near to death by a dragon, excepting of course the half eaten crossbowmen