Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

655 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Robert is saying if they stay in their castles they are done. They are f*ed either way. If they met the Dothraki in the field they would get slaughtered. If they hid behind their castles there people would get slaughtered and they would lose all legitimacy to rule. That was why he wanted to kill Dany in Season 1 because he didn’t think they could survive if they crossed.

+1.
It was (and is) a "Screwed if we do, screwed if we don't."-scenario. And that's before you add dragons to the mix.

2 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

That is pretty funny that dynamic. They are totally written for each other. 

It is. 
I can easily see the opposite happening; Jon hesitating about doing something and Dany pushing him to do it.
As long as this "something" isn't stabbing her in the chest with Longclaw. :angry2:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

+1.
It was (and is) a "Screwed if we do, screwed if we don't."-scenario. And that's before you add dragons to the mix.

It is. 
I can easily see the opposite happening; Jon hesitating about doing something and Dany pushing him to do it.
As long as this "something" isn't stabbing her in the chest with Longclaw. :angry2:

Lol. Gods that would be one of the stupidest endings of all time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jcmontea said:

Lol. Gods that would be one of the stupidest endings of all time. 

It would, almost as bad as the swedish drama-series Tre Kronor. (Three Crowns)
10 seasons, quite a lot of viewers, and how did it end? A crazy priest blew up almost all of the characters. Talk about the writers making a statement saying "We're done with this effing show, go watch something else!"

If Cersei blows up the Red Keep with everyone in it, I know where D&D are taking their inspiration from. :P

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I can easily see the opposite happening; Jon hesitating about doing something and Dany pushing him to do it.
As long as this "something" isn't stabbing her in the chest with Longclaw:angry2:

^_^

I imagined another scene - Dany convincing Jon to ride on the dragon.

32 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

It was (and is) a "Screwed if we do, screwed if we don't."-scenario. And that's before you add dragons to the mix.

There's a difference between what Robert had then at his disposal, and what now has Cersei. I think that she isn't afraid of Dothraki invasion/siege because she has wildfire, and unlike Dany hesitant with her dragons, Cersei isn't afraid of killing whoever will be between her and her enemies, even if it will be innocent people. Cersei isn't afraid of anything, and the only thing she cherishes is her own life and her child. While Dany cares about her people, for Jon, Missandei, her Unsullied, Tyrion, and even Varys, and she was upset when she lost Olenna and Sands. While Cersei didn't cared that her supporters, Randyll Turly, and who knows how many of his people, and Lannisters soldiers died. She just said to Jaime - who cares about those that died? we will hire Golden Company.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2017 at 7:21 PM, Count Balerion said:

My second paragraph wasn't in "debate" mode at all; I was thinking again how to make the story make more sense. The first paragraph was a little hasty and sloppy, perhaps, although I did say "some" (therefore not all) defense of show-logic, and I did say "seems", etc.

Sure, I don't want to presume what mode you were operating in or what your intentions were. I'd say that:

1. Your second paragraph was not a strawman.

2. I stay with my commentary on your second paragraph, whether it was close to what you intended or not.

3. Defense of show logic is a large topic. It has some relevance to the current thread, but a full discussion of the matter is a bit too much to attempt here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 ^_^

I imagined another scene - Dany convincing Jon to ride on the dragon.

100%. Totally see her saying that he needs to ride Rhaegal the dragon named after his father. That he is a Targaryen. With the subtext being your a Targaryen dude get over your hang up on the incest. 

 

25 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

It would, almost as bad as the swedish drama-series Tre Kronor. (Three Crowns)
10 seasons, quite a lot of viewers, and how did it end? A crazy priest blew up almost all of the characters. Talk about the writers making a statement saying "We're done with this effing show, go watch something else!"

If Cersei blows up the Red Keep with everyone in it, I know where D&D are taking their inspiration from. :P

 

Lol. If they went in that direction they should just have the NK win. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I can easily see the opposite happening; Jon hesitating about doing something and Dany pushing him to do it.

 

3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

100%. Totally see her saying that he needs to ride Rhaegal the dragon named after his father. That he is a Targaryen. With the subtext being your a Targaryen dude get over your hang up on the incest. 

Hah, gives new meaning to my earlier statement about doing something; 
"D: Just do it!",
"J: Hmm, I'm not sure about this..."
"D: We're Targaryens. It's normal.."
With "something/it" in this scenario being Daenerys herself of course. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jcmontea said:

Thats my point though.

1. I think your misinterpreting Robert’s comments. Robert is saying if they stay in their castles they are done. They are f*ed either way. If they met the Dothraki in the field they would get slaughtered. If they hid behind their castles there people would get slaughtered and they would lose all legitimacy to rule. That was why he wanted to kill Dany in Season 1 because he didn’t think they could survive if they crossed.

It seems like Cersei remembers that comment if anything because she def. does not adopt a lets stay in our castles and wait it out approach. Of course, that was not a viable strategy for her since she needed to get her hands on gold

2. so possible Robert’s comments did not even enter into her thinking.

 

1. I don't think I'm misinterpreting Robert's comments. After all, I wrote "What does he say is a viable long-term strategy? He doesn’t say."  Concerning Robert's thinking, I also wrote "It sounds more like, 'Hey, if the Dothraki get here, we’re probably doomed.'"  Being doomed if the Dothraki arrive is the same as being "f*ed either way."

However, as you say,

2. Robert's comments may not even enter into Cersei's thinking. 

Thus, the whole matter is not all that important. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I imagined another scene - Dany convincing Jon to ride on the dragon.

...Again. lol.

Regarding Robert. I think we think far too deeply on this series at times. This is one of those times. I think all that was, was the writers hyping up the Dothraki. Making them seem like this unstoppable force of nature.

I disagree with that to be honest. They are not unstoppable. And remember this is prior to Dany getting the entire people's under her rule. Yes the Dothraki are deadly on open field, but they can be stopped. Jorah proved that much. With the right tactics Westeros could (and should) win.

All that scene was was some forshadowing so we are not shocked when Dothraki wreck shop. In universe... It was just Robert explaining that if the Dothraki cross it's gonna be a bad time for everyone. It's gonna suck either way to deal with them. What I notice he did not say is how the people may rally. Kinda like how everyone is rallying to fight the NK. When you are getting slaughtered and the invader has no desire to rule and just wants to kill and maime, that motivates a lot of people to suddenly join the military.

 

I dunno. Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MrJay said:

...Again. lol.

Regarding Robert. I think we think far too deeply on this series at times. This is one of those times. I think all that was, was the writers hyping up the Dothraki. Making them seem like this unstoppable force of nature.

I disagree with that to be honest. They are not unstoppable. And remember this is prior to Dany getting the entire people's under her rule. Yes the Dothraki are deadly on open field, but they can be stopped. Jorah proved that much. With the right tactics Westeros could (and should) win.

All that scene was was some forshadowing so we are not shocked when Dothraki wreck shop. In universe... It was just Robert explaining that if the Dothraki cross it's gonna be a bad time for everyone. It's gonna suck either way to deal with them. What I notice he did not say is how the people may rally. Kinda like how everyone is rallying to fight the NK. When you are getting slaughtered and the invader has no desire to rule and just wants to kill and maime, that motivates a lot of people to suddenly join the military.

 

I dunno. Just my opinion.

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, jcmontea said:

With the subtext being your a Targaryen dude get over your hang up on the incest. 

 

14 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Hah, gives new meaning to my earlier statement about doing something; 
"D: Just do it!",
"J: Hmm, I'm not sure about this..."
"D: We're Targaryens. It's normal.."
With "something/it" in this scenario being Daenerys herself of course. ;)

 

10 hours ago, MrJay said:
17 hours ago, Megorova said:

I imagined another scene - Dany convincing Jon to ride on the dragon.

...Again. lol.

:rolleyes: All of you are perverts <- said without any malice.

I meant literally, not with any sexual subtext.

So far, out of those who went beyond The Wall, Jon is the only one, who went back not on a dragon. In episode 5, when he had to pet Drogon, his hands were shaking. So I think that he will be reluctant to ride on a dragon. Even after they will learn that he is Targaryen. So probably Dany will have to convince him, that he should go into the battle, flying on a dragon.

10 hours ago, MrJay said:

Regarding Robert. I think we think far too deeply on this series at times. This is one of those times. I think all that was, was the writers hyping up the Dothraki. Making them seem like this unstoppable force of nature.

I disagree with that to be honest. They are not unstoppable.

Yep, they aren't. There was even a previous case in history, when much smaller number of Unsullied managed to stop Dothraki horde.

"The most famous Unsullied were the Three Thousand of Qohor, who held back a Dothraki khalasar over fifty thousand strong. Only six hundred Unsullied survived, having killed twelve thousand of the Dothraki. To honor the Unsullied, the surviving Dothraki rode in before the Unsullied line, throwing their cut braids down in front of them."

"According to Jorah Mormont, the Dothraki could have outflanked such a small force, but in their contempt for infantry, the Dothraki riders launched a direct frontal assault instead, in an attempt to simply ride down the heavy infantry. In total, the Unsullied repelled eighteen Dothraki charges and three attacks by Dothraki archers. The Dothraki halted their attacks after more than twelve thousand of their fighters had been killed, including Khal Temmo, his sons, and his bloodriders. Out of the three thousand Unsullied, only six hundred remained. Four days after the fighting began, the new khal led his remaining khalasar past the city gates of Qohor in a stately procession. Each man cut off his braid and threw it down before the Unsullied."

 

I think that even Ramsay Bolton, with the same strategy that he used against Jon, in The Battle of Bastards, could have anihilated all 100,000 of Dothraki. Because the more of those idiots charged in, the higher will be walls made of their corpses. And then, surrownded on three sided by mountains of dead men, and pressed on fourth side, by soldiers with shields and looooong spears, held by several people, even riders on horses, would be unable to get out of that trap.

Their biggest advantage is their numbers, and their horses. But Night's King has the same number of wights in his army, furthermore he also has giants. And in a battle against Undead, Dothraki horses will become snacks for wights.

That battle will be seriously gruesome and unpretty. The worst, out of all shown on GOT so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

:rolleyes: All of you are perverts <- said without any malice.

:D

But you're right that Jon hasn't actually ridden a (real) dragon yet.
He seemed incredibly in awe off and spellbound by Drogon. I'm not actually sure that we'll see him ride on Rhaegal in S8 but I wouldn't mind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

...

Yep, they aren't. There was even a previous case in history, when much smaller number of Unsullied managed to stop Dothraki horde.

"The most famous Unsullied were the Three Thousand of Qohor, who held back a Dothraki khalasar over fifty thousand strong. Only six hundred Unsullied survived, having killed twelve thousand of the Dothraki. To honor the Unsullied, the surviving Dothraki rode in before the Unsullied line, throwing their cut braids down in front of them."

"According to Jorah Mormont, the Dothraki could have outflanked such a small force, but in their contempt for infantry, the Dothraki riders launched a direct frontal assault instead, in an attempt to simply ride down the heavy infantry. In total, the Unsullied repelled eighteen Dothraki charges and three attacks by Dothraki archers. The Dothraki halted their attacks after more than twelve thousand of their fighters had been killed, including Khal Temmo, his sons, and his bloodriders. Out of the three thousand Unsullied, only six hundred remained. Four days after the fighting began, the new khal led his remaining khalasar past the city gates of Qohor in a stately procession. Each man cut off his braid and threw it down before the Unsullied."

...

I believe the story of the Battle of Qohor is only recounted in the books, right? If it is mentioned in the show, could someone tell me in which episode this occurred? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jabul said:

I believe the story of the Battle of Qohor is only recounted in the books, right? If it is mentioned in the show, could someone tell me in which episode this occurred? 

Aside from main story shown in GOT, there's also special feature Histories & Lore.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Histories_%26_Lore

What showmakers think is important, but what they didn't had enough time to fit into GOT, they show in this 'mini-series'. This is story about Qohor, video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhc283pXcjQ

Text version:

Spoiler

Narration

Jorah Mormont: When the Doom claimed Valyria, the great freehold fractured into warring cities and upstart nations ripe for the taking. Out of the east swarmed the Dothraki, the horselords of the plains who feared only defeat and dragons, and now the dragons were all gone. Under the great Khal Temmo, they sacked and burned every town and city in their path. No army could stand against them, because the Dothraki do not stand. The horselords do not draw up battle lines or hide behind shield walls or layer themselves in armor. The Dothraki charge. Their blades are more scythe than sword, and better to cull the infantry ranks without breaking stride. Even their archers fire from horseback so that advancing or retreating, the arrows never cease. To the Dothraki, a man who does not ride is no man at all, without honor or pride.

When the city of Qohor realized Khal Temmo was coming, they strengthened their walls, doubled their own guards and hired two full companies of sellswords. The Dothraki were used to glorified farmers with spears; Qohor would show them a proper army, with armored and mounted cavalry to match the horde's own. As an afterthought, the city leaders sent an envoy to Astapor to buy Unsullied. The slavers had always claimed that the Unsullied were the great Ghiscari legions come again. Few cared. The dragon-burned ruins of Old Ghis were a stark reminder that the age of the foot-soldier was over. The envoy had his orders, however, and quickly bought three thousand Unsullied for the long march back, for Unsullied do not ride.

But while they marched, Khal Temmo arrived at Qohor. I can imagine how pleased the Khal was to finally face a challenge. By the end of the battle, crows and wolves feasted on what remained of Qohor's heavy horse. All the sellswords had fled. Qohor knew that the Dothraki would very soon break through the gates to rape, slave and burn at their pleasure. Yet the next day Khal Temmo woke to find before the gates three thousand eunuchs in formation, armed with only spears, shields and spiked helms. The Unsullied had slipped past the Khal's army in the night while the Dothraki feasted.

Khal Temmo had many times their number and could easily have flanked the small forces, but to the Dothraki, men on foot are made only to be ridden down. Eighteen times the horselords charged and eighteen times the Unsullied locked their shields, lowered their spears and held the line against twenty thousand Dothraki screamers. When the Khal's archers rained arrows on them, the Unsullied lifted their shields above their heads until the swarm passed; and then they held the line. In the end only six hundred Unsullied remained, but more than twelve thousand Dothraki lay dead - including Khal Temmo and all of his sons. The new Khal led the survivors past the city gates where one by one each man cut off his braid and threw it down before the feet of the Unsullied, defeated and shamed forever.

Since that day, the Unsullied fill the ranks of cities and households wealthy enough... or desperate enough. Sellswords fight for gold, knights for glory and Dothraki for blood. To a man, the Unsullied fight only to obey. With the right master over them, imagine how the forces of chaos would break against their shields: the conquerers, the madmen, the usurpers...

 

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aside from main story shown in GOT, there's also special feature Histories & Lore.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Histories_%26_Lore

What showmakers think is important, but what they didn't had enough time to fit into GOT, they show in this 'mini-series'. This is story about Qohor, video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhc283pXcjQ

Text version:

  Reveal hidden contents

Narration

Jorah Mormont: When the Doom claimed Valyria, the great freehold fractured into warring cities and upstart nations ripe for the taking. Out of the east swarmed the Dothraki, the horselords of the plains who feared only defeat and dragons, and now the dragons were all gone. Under the great Khal Temmo, they sacked and burned every town and city in their path. No army could stand against them, because the Dothraki do not stand. The horselords do not draw up battle lines or hide behind shield walls or layer themselves in armor. The Dothraki charge. Their blades are more scythe than sword, and better to cull the infantry ranks without breaking stride. Even their archers fire from horseback so that advancing or retreating, the arrows never cease. To the Dothraki, a man who does not ride is no man at all, without honor or pride.

When the city of Qohor realized Khal Temmo was coming, they strengthened their walls, doubled their own guards and hired two full companies of sellswords. The Dothraki were used to glorified farmers with spears; Qohor would show them a proper army, with armored and mounted cavalry to match the horde's own. As an afterthought, the city leaders sent an envoy to Astapor to buy Unsullied. The slavers had always claimed that the Unsullied were the great Ghiscari legions come again. Few cared. The dragon-burned ruins of Old Ghis were a stark reminder that the age of the foot-soldier was over. The envoy had his orders, however, and quickly bought three thousand Unsullied for the long march back, for Unsullied do not ride.

But while they marched, Khal Temmo arrived at Qohor. I can imagine how pleased the Khal was to finally face a challenge. By the end of the battle, crows and wolves feasted on what remained of Qohor's heavy horse. All the sellswords had fled. Qohor knew that the Dothraki would very soon break through the gates to rape, slave and burn at their pleasure. Yet the next day Khal Temmo woke to find before the gates three thousand eunuchs in formation, armed with only spears, shields and spiked helms. The Unsullied had slipped past the Khal's army in the night while the Dothraki feasted.

Khal Temmo had many times their number and could easily have flanked the small forces, but to the Dothraki, men on foot are made only to be ridden down. Eighteen times the horselords charged and eighteen times the Unsullied locked their shields, lowered their spears and held the line against twenty thousand Dothraki screamers. When the Khal's archers rained arrows on them, the Unsullied lifted their shields above their heads until the swarm passed; and then they held the line. In the end only six hundred Unsullied remained, but more than twelve thousand Dothraki lay dead - including Khal Temmo and all of his sons. The new Khal led the survivors past the city gates where one by one each man cut off his braid and threw it down before the feet of the Unsullied, defeated and shamed forever.

Since that day, the Unsullied fill the ranks of cities and households wealthy enough... or desperate enough. Sellswords fight for gold, knights for glory and Dothraki for blood. To a man, the Unsullied fight only to obey. With the right master over them, imagine how the forces of chaos would break against their shields: the conquerers, the madmen, the usurpers...

 

Okay, it seems the back story for the Battle of Qohor is the same in the HBO and the GRRM versions. 

Thanks for the "Histories" link. It looks like it has some worthwhile stuff. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now