The Order of the Greenhand: N+A=J

[cgrav]

16 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

the people of Sisterton saw Ned with a pretty young girl they all think is Jon's mother, that Ned told them was a fisherman's daughter.

Why the hell would Ashara Dayne go to the Eyrie and travel perilously to Winterfell with Ned just to go back south in the middle of a war?

This whole NAJ theory comes down to "There might have been time for it". That's not a solid basis for any credible theory. 

Nevermind that at this point, we're given three different people posited to be Ned's lovers, and frankly the logistics favor the least likely ones the most: Wylla, who isn't around to say otherwise, and the fisherman's daughter, who could well just want to make some claim on Winterfell's wealth for her child, seeing as her father died helping Ned Stark.

[King Maegor]

32 minutes ago, cgrav said:

it's possible for characters to occupy similar themes/archetypes without them being the same person. Mance also has a black cape with red slashes... is he a Targaryen or Blackfyre? 

There's also the fact that Mance has been at or north of the Wall since before the ToJ scene. Jeor remember Mance as a youngster at the Wall, and the Wildlings have been following him for like 20+ years. 

the cloak could easily be his tribute to his best friend, Rhaegar, which might also explain his attachment to it.  Jeor never recalls Mance at the wall as a young man...we have no idea when he got there...it is just as likely that he went there after the rebellion

[King Maegor]

26 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Why the hell would Ashara Dayne go to the Eyrie and travel perilously to Winterfell with Ned just to go back south in the middle of a war?

This whole NAJ theory comes down to "There might have been time for it". That's not a solid basis for any credible theory. 

Nevermind that at this point, we're given three different people posited to be Ned's lovers, and frankly the logistics favor the least likely ones the most: Wylla, who isn't around to say otherwise, and the fisherman's daughter, who could well just want to make some claim on Winterfell's wealth for her child, seeing as her father died helping Ned Stark.

Where else would she go?  If she was on her way to Riverrun to go to Brandon and Catelyn's wedding, which is entirely possible because I would imagine everyone who is anything was invited to the wedding, and we know that Ned and Ashara met and fell in love at Harrenhal, because Ned Dayne told us that, so the idea that Ned might have ran into her on the road or asked if he could escort her there, which is definitely not out of the realm of possibility, what was Ned supposed to do with her when they found out Brandon was heading to KL all pissed off?  he would take her with him so he could protect her.  Ned was trying to get to White Harbor, where he could find a captain he could trust to take her home, so actually, it does make sense.  Do you know what Wylla means?  it means wife. When Ned and Robert talk about Jon's mother on their trip south, Ned said he dishonored himself and Catelyn in the sight of gods and men.  people make public proclamations in the sight of gods and men, like wedding vows or confessions.  when you combine that with Ned telling Robert that Wylla (wife) is Jon's mother, it could easily be argued that Ned did the same thing as his son Robb.  when he was in a whirlwind of grief (brother and father are dead, sister is missing, almost died in a storm) he slept with Ashara and married her, thus he dishonored himself and Catelyn in the sight of Gods and Men because he was already married.  that is just the type of thing George would add to an almost perfect character like Ned's background story.  Otherwise, he is a pure good character, without even a slightest touch of grey

[Faera]

13 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

the cloak could easily be his tribute to his best friend, Rhaegar, which might also explain his attachment to it.  Jeor never recalls Mance at the wall as a young man...we have no idea when he got there...it is just as likely that he went there after the rebellion

We are told Mance's backstory in ACoK, that he had wildling blood before he was taken in by the Night's Watch during a raid as a child. He was in service to Shadow Tower. We also know how he got that black cloak with the red silk in it. There is no reason to presume he would lie whatsoever, especially since he was talking about why he chose the free folk way of life and the freedom it represented.

Bottom line: Mance is a well-established and fleshed out character in his own right. He is Mance Rayder. There is no reason to believe he is anyone other than what he is stated to be by others.

[cgrav]

16 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Where else would she go? 

Starfall, because that's where she went anyway. There is no reason she would go to Starfall via Winterfell.
 

17 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

If she was on her way to Riverrun to go to Brandon and Catelyn's wedding

We have no idea if she was present for this or not, let alone that she was in the company of Ned. 

20 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

what was Ned supposed to do with her when they found out Brandon was heading to KL all pissed off?

Tell her to go home the way she came and prepare for war. How would traveling with Ned to Winterfell be safer? He's a wanted man in the South, she's not. She's in far more danger being associated with him than by herself. Plus we still have no reason to believe that she was present for any of this.

22 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Otherwise, he is a pure good character, without even a slightest touch of grey

Not even close. Ned's ethics are a huge grey in this story. 

If you have to shoehorn all of this stuff in with literally no textual support on the most basic logistical level... it's not a serious theory. You're barely finding space on the timeline for this, and haven't articulated any sort of consistency on the thematic or symbolic level.

[King Maegor]

21 minutes ago, Faera said:

We are told Mance's backstory in ACoK, that he had wildling blood before he was taken in by the Night's Watch during a raid as a child. He was in service to Shadow Tower. We also know how he got that black cloak with the red silk in it. There is no reason to presume he would lie whatsoever, especially since he was talking about why he chose the free folk way of life and the freedom it represented.

Bottom line: Mance is a well-established and fleshed out character in his own right. He is Mance Rayder. There is no reason to believe he is anyone other than what he is stated to be by others.

Mance's backstory doesn't make sense.  Osha doesn't seem to think he's ever even seen a Northern winter, "Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." she flat out says that he has never experienced winter up there.  how could that be if his backstory is true?

[Faera]

7 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Mance's backstory doesn't make sense.  Osha doesn't seem to think he's ever even seen a Northern winter, "Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." she flat out says that he has never experienced winter up there.  how could that be if his backstory is true?

Sorry that I'm not impressed. He spent most of his childhood at the Wall so, no, he probably doesn't know what it is like to live through many winters beyond the Wall, unlike Osha.

Besides, why pick Osha's word over several other characters who are aware of his general origin story. Even if Mance wasn't born beyond the Wall, but actually on the Wall or Mole's town, it doesn't make him anything other than Mance, The very idea that he's Arthur or Rhaegar is still fanciful fanfiction to me without any real, firm suggestion that Mance came to the Wall as an adult.

[falcotron]

5 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Do you know what Wylla means?  it means wife.

Where do you get this from?

There does seem to be a website* that claims Wylla is as Australian Aboriginal name meaning "woman or wife", but they don't give any sources. Or even tell us what Aboriginal language it supposedly came from.** The same page also claims that Wylla is only 1 syllable long, and that it's related to a bunch of Celtic and Germanic names. The name is attested hundreds of years before contact with Australian aborigines. And it's very rare for aboriginal words to be transliterated with a "y" for the "i" vowel.

So I find it hard to take this very seriously—but of course I wouldn't dismiss a source if someone provided one.

"Wylla" (along with various other spellings) is actually a common medieval nickname for "Wilhelmina" and other Germanic names. The "Wil-" part of all of those names means "will", as in desire or intent. As a name in its own right, it probably only goes back to 19th century America, although it could be from one of the earlier nickname-to-name fads going back over the centuries.

There are also attested cases of other meanings—e.g., as a variant for Wylie (which means "wily"), and as an Anglicized Turkicized Arabic name that originally means "unbroken succession". GRRM could plausibly know someone named Wylla with one of those sources. Not as likely as him using the common medieval English nickname that matches other common medieval English names like Wyman and Wylis in his story, but still far more likely than him using a spurious etymology off a website that didn't even exist when he began writing the books.

---

* I'm sure there's more than one, but that doesn't mean anything. There are dozens of these crappy "baby name" sites that just rip off information from books, more reputable sites, and each other to try to get some ad revenue without doing any actual research. 

** There are around 300 documented Australian languages, which are only distantly related if at all, and of course most of them have multiple words like "wife", "spouse", "mate", etc., just like ours does. Words for "wife" range from "dyinmang" to "korda" just within some related Sydney area tribes. So, obviously, I can't say for sure that no aboriginal language has a word that sounds like "wylla" that means "wife". But just as obviously, you can't just claim that there is some such word in some such language and expect anyone to trust you.

[King Maegor]

20 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Starfall, because that's where she went anyway. There is no reason she would go to Starfall via Winterfell.

That's exactly what I said.  How was she supposed to get there?  She's the hottest girl in the realm.  do you think the Honorable Ned Stark would just leave her and tell her good luck, I hope you get there, or do you think he would take it upon himself to ensure that the woman that he loves finds a safe way home?

 

23 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Not even close. Ned's ethics are a huge grey in this story. 

If you have to shoehorn all of this stuff in with literally no textual support on the most basic logistical level... it's not a serious theory. You're barely finding space on the timeline for this, and haven't articulated any sort of consistency on the thematic or symbolic level.

Name something Grey about Ned if this isn't true?  and using bs statements like my ideas aren't articulated with any sort of consistency on the thematic or symbolic level is a bit much.  don't patronize me.  people bloviate like that when they lack an actual point to make.  I just walked you through a 100% plausible scenario where Ned and Ashara could easily have been together at the start of Robert's Rebellion.  Admittedly, I'm not as good at it as the people who came up with the theory.  the people of Sisterton saw Ned with a woman they all think he was intimate with.  Ned doesn't strike me as the type to sleep with a random girl who's father just died trying to help him get across the Bite.  That is a pretty strong indicator that the girl he was with wasn't just some random fisherman's daughter.  There is an explanation for why they would be together too.  they were in love.  Ashara's own family is who tells us this.  And what do people do with girls they want to marry when they are a second son and free to marry anyone their father consents to?  they bring their dream girl to their brother's wedding and get their father's blessing.  and by the way, why is the kid's name Ned?  he was born after the rebellion.  you're telling me there isn't some secret going on with the Starks and Daynes?  then why did the lord of Starfall name his heir after a guy who scorned his little sister and killed his brother?  come on. you can't actually think that makes sense

[King Maegor]

2 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Where do you get this from?

look up Wylla name meaning on google.  the first thing that comes up is Wylla means wife

[King Maegor]

13 minutes ago, Faera said:

Sorry that I'm not impressed. He spent most of his childhood at the Wall so, no, he probably doesn't know what it is like to live through many winters beyond the Wall, unlike Osha.

Besides, why pick Osha's word over several other characters who are aware of his general origin story. Even if Mance wasn't born beyond the Wall, but actually on the Wall or Mole's town, it doesn't make him anything other than Mance, The very idea that he's Arthur or Rhaegar is still fanciful fanfiction to me without any real, firm suggestion that Mance came to the Wall as an adult.

Are you claiming that a 40 something year old guy whose backstory is that he was born north of the wall, grew up at the wall, then became a ranger and was then obviously constantly on the north side of the wall would have no idea what a northern winter is like?  he would have lived through at least a few winters by then so you and I both know that doesn't make sense.  And I chose Osha because she's the only wildling that says anything about Mance's backstory.  That seems to indicate that Mance doesn't go around trying to tell the wildlings the same story Qhorin Halfhand tells Jon.  Qhorin is the only other person who we get Mance's backstory from.  When you add that to him saying he tasted the Dornishman's wife, and knows every song in the seven kingdoms, and his incredible ability with a two-handed greatsword, and the fact that George said the Sword of the Morning is an office Arthur held (Dawn+Sword of the Morning=Battle for the Dawn), it seems like he would be honor bound to fulfill his oath of office and do something to try to prevent another long night, so he went north of the wall, united everyone and tried to get them all on the right side of the wall so when the real war begins, less people are added to the army of the dead.  that makes perfect sense 

[maudisdottir]

12 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

the people of Sisterton saw Ned with a woman they all think he was intimate with. 

Is this in the books? All I can recall about the fisherman's daughter is what Godric Borrell said to Davos:

Quote

The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

Can you point to any other mentions or descriptions of the fisherman's daughter? Because I don't remember anything about the people of Sisterton seeing Ned Stark with a pretty woman.

[King Maegor]

8 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Can you point to any other mentions or descriptions of the fisherman's daughter? Because I don't remember anything about the people of Sisterton seeing Ned Stark with a pretty woman.

Ok sorry...he was with a young woman the people of Sisterton clearly think he was intimate with.  People don't just assume people are intimate for no reason.  they saw something between the two of them that made them think they were intimate

[falcotron]

19 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

look up Wylla name meaning on google.  the first thing that comes up is Wylla means wife

The first thing that comes up is link to a web site that's just over 1 year old, that seems to have copied the information off the same useless page I was referring to, including the same random misinformation, even down to Wylla having 1 syllable.

So, that's really your source? Do you think GRRM got the name by traveling 20 years into the future to when this site first existed and typing in random names until he found one that they claim means "wife" in any language?

[King Maegor]

1 minute ago, falcotron said:

The first thing that comes up is link to a web site that's just over 1 year old, that seems to have copied the information off the same useless page I was referring to, including the same random misinformation, even down to Wylla having 1 syllable.

So, that's really your source? Do you think GRRM got the name by traveling 20 years into the future to when this site first existed and typing in random names until he found one that they claim means "wife" in any language?

My source was their video.  I often look stuff up while or after I watch their videos and sure enough, I looked it up and the very first thing that comes up was that.  If you want their source, ask them.  I would assume that Wylla also meant wife 26 years ago when he started writing the story though.  He says he uses baby name books to pick names for characters, so no, I doubt he used the website you're talking about.  He also says that the names he chooses for characters are significant, and he can't even begin writing a character until he finds the right name for them because he doesn't know who the character is until he has the name

[falcotron]

30 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

My source was their video.  I often look stuff up while or after I watch their videos and sure enough, I looked it up and the very first thing that comes up was that.  If you want their source, ask them.  I would assume that Wylla also meant wife 26 years ago when he started writing the story though.  He says he uses baby name books to pick names for characters, so no, I doubt he used the website you're talking about.  He also says that the names he chooses for characters are significant, and he can't even begin writing a character until he finds the right name for them because he doesn't know who the character is until he has the name

Sorry, you're the one trying to convince everyone else of something implausible. You can't just say "These other people said it, so I assume they had a really good source, but I have no idea idea what it is". If the only source you have is a fly-by-night site that also tells us that Wylla has 1 syllable and that it's related to a bunch of Celtic and Germanic names despite being Australian (and that was clearly copied from an earlier fly-by-night site), that's the only evidence you're offering beyond your faith in the Greenhand people which nobody else shares, so you shouldn't expect anyone to be convinced.

[maudisdottir]

42 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Ok sorry...he was with a young woman the people of Sisterton clearly think he was intimate with.  People don't just assume people are intimate for no reason. 

We don't know who "they" are that saw the girl, the silver or the baby, but we also don't know if "they" ever saw Ned with the girl or if the girl even exists, let alone the silver or the baby. Most likely Ned gave the fisherman's daughter a bag of silver because of the loss of her father, but as Lord Godric's is the only mention of this story in five books, we don't know the answer without writing a lot of fan fiction to make it work as Ashara and Jon Snow.

Quote

they saw something between the two of them that made them think they were intimate

But did they? Are you getting that from what I quoted above? All we know is that "they" said the girl was given a bag of silver and was left with a baby in her belly, which she named Jon Snow. Who saw them together acting intimate, or at all?

[King Maegor]

25 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

But did they? Are you getting that from what I quoted above? All we know is that "they" said the girl was given a bag of silver and was left with a baby in her belly, which she named Jon Snow. Who saw them together acting intimate, or at all?

This isn't Philosophy 101, where I'm here to debate the meaning of what "it" means.  It's a simple inference made from the information provided.  the people of Sisterton think the girl Ned was with is Jon Snow's mother.  People don't think things like that for no reason.  Most adults can take a look at two people and can tell if they're intimate.  These people saw Ned and this girl together and came to the conclusion that they were intimate.  Why would George include that story if there wasn't at the very least a small element of truth in it?  Do you think he is in the habit of unnecessarily making stuff up to make his already incredibly long books longer for no reason?  He could have had Lord Borrell tell any story or make any small talk he wanted to, but instead, he provided us with a story about Ned being intimate with a girl he was with when he was traveling North to call the banners

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Godric Borrell also told Davos that Tywin was dead and then launched into a crazy story about how Tyrion twisted out of his cell through the bars, tore Tywin apart with his own hands, was red from head to heel. So Lord Borrell gave us two stories, if the first one was twisted out of shape, what makes anyone think the second one is accurate? 

The only accurate thing about Tywin was that he died and Tyrion killed him. Everything else is fabrication. Ned may have been helped by the fisherman's daughter but everything beyond that is a lot of assumptions, probably because she turned up pregnant at some point.

[King Maegor]

36 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Sorry, you're the one trying to convince everyone else of something implausible. You can't just say "These other people said it, so I assume they had a really good source, but I have no idea idea what it is". If the only source you have is a fly-by-night site that also tells us that Wylla has 1 syllable and that it's related to a bunch of Celtic and Germanic names despite being Australian (and that was clearly copied from an earlier fly-by-night site), that's the only evidence you're offering beyond your faith in the Greenhand people which nobody else shares, so you shouldn't expect anyone to be convinced.

1

You're the one who is claiming the number one search result on Google is lying and totally making up that Wylla means wife.  It seems to me that you are desperately attempting to undermine my argument and since you aren't beating me in the debate, you are attacking the source of the information. BTW, I just looked it up on a few other websites and found the same definition for it.  It says it is of Australian Aboriginal origin and means woman or wife on 4 different sites I've been on in the last 5 minutes