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Lollygag

Is Craster a Casterly? - Now with plot-relevance!

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On 10/14/2017 at 7:29 PM, Lollygag said:

sic

 

Not sure if you mentioned it or not. But,

who were the Casterlys?

who were the Lannisters?

What's the significance of the Lannister take over of House Casterly and the tales said of it? 

What's the significance to the current Song of Ice and Fire?

Interested in seeing where this is going, but curious about these other points in relation to this theory.

Being that Lann is rumored to be an Andal Adventurer or the son of one on a daughter of Garth the Green. (The First King of the First Men)

The Lannister's who's gold was rumored to bring down Valyria. The Lannister's who opposed the last Dragon King. 

I have some idea's on this, but curious yours.

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not sure if you mentioned it or not. But,

who were the Casterlys?

who were the Lannisters?

What's the significance of the Lannister take over of House Casterly and the tales said of it? 

What's the significance to the current Song of Ice and Fire?

Interested in seeing where this is going, but curious about these other points in relation to this theory.

Being that Lann is rumored to be an Andal Adventurer or the son of one on a daughter of Garth the Green. (The First King of the First Men)

The Lannister's who's gold was rumored to bring down Valyria. The Lannister's who opposed the last Dragon King. 

I have some idea's on this, but curious yours.

 

A lot of the background is in the Westerlands chapter in TWOIAF. Craster being a Casterly was an unexpected off-shoot of the what I've been looking some of which is laid out in the post below.

The unabridged version is on GRRM's website.

WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE SAMPLE Westerlands | George R.R. Martin

I don't think I'll ever delve too much into the deep history of the series as my interest is more with the primary characters so not sure I can answer all of your questions. I'm not very interested in the Targs so I won't explore that much personally either.

I'm working on a full Lannister re-read right now, so I can't point to the significance yet beyond providing a theory as to why Craster is special to the Others which is tied into the Casterly-Lannisters stonemen and the things in the water which want Jaime. The stonemen/greyscale originate from water magic of the Rhoynar and the Others are a purer form of water magic being Ice so I now suspect the Casterly-Lannisters are a special bloodline like the Starks and Targs though it sounds like more of a curse in their case. 

Stonemen of the Rhoynar tied to Casterly Rock (and Oldtown) explains Valyria's avoidance of those places and it also explains why gold tied to water magic might be seen as cursed by Valyria's fire and blood magic. Maybe like mixing ammonia and bleach?

Here's a hint as to the relevance to the story proper.

The Cattle of Gereon

In those years, on the island of Erithea, lived a man named Gereon (Γηρυόνης). He had three bodies which were connected at his stomach. He had three heads, six arms, and six legs.
   Gereon had cattle that were famous for their beauty. Eurestheus sent Hercules to take Gereon's cattle. This journey to Erithea was a long and difficult one. The land there was very hot and dry. It was so hot that Hercules tried to shoot the Sun's rays with his arrow because he could not withstand the heat anymore.
   The Sun was so impressed by his boldness, that he lowered the power of his rays. The god of sun, Apollo, made Hercules a large golden boat to get to the island.
    Gereon's cattle were guarded by a two-headed dog named Orthros, and a shepherd named Euritionas. The dog sensed Hercules coming and attacked him, but Hercules crushed its two heads with his club and then killed the shepherd. The hero loaded the best of the cattle on the golden boat and began his journey back. On the way, many tried to take the cattle from him, but failed. Even goddess Hera tried to stand in his way by making the cattle crazy and run like wild.
   This task took Hercules three years to complete, but he brought the cattle to Eurestheus, who sacrificed them to Hera.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not very interested in the Targs so I won't explore that much personally either.

I would suggest that it is worth looking into, but just a suggestion

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—

 

 
 
 
I would suggest that House Casterly was part of Garth the Green's family of the First Men. Something Lann was not a part of, or only became apart of through his father. Who either hooked up with Florys or Rowan. 
 
Others and I have linked the Andals to the Others, and i think this would explain Craster's possible link. He may have been a descendant of this merging and hence why his blood matters to them. 
 
Just a something i thought worked with what you were saying.

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4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I would suggest that it is worth looking into, but just a suggestion

It's a good suggestion, but I can't keep names straight let alone numbers. I can't keep straight Viserys III from Viserys XXXVI and all of the other names they use entirely too often which can only be differentiated with a number or date or by being daisy-chained to other names which are also repeated. And histories don't have fully developed characters. It just ends up sounding like Charlie Brown teacher-voice.

11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I would suggest that House Casterly was part of Garth the Green's family of the First Men. Something Lann was not a part of, or only became apart of through his father. Who either hooked up with Florys or Rowan. 

I think specifically this variation of Garth which is tied to winter, sacrifice and the changing seasons. Also suspect this is the case of the Manderlys who may not have ever fully converted to the seven.

A few of the very oldest tales of Garth Greenhand present us with a considerably darker deity, one who demanded blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest. In some stories the green god dies every autumn when the trees lose their leaves, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. This version of Garth is largely forgotten.

ADWD Davos IV

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Others and I have linked the Andals to the Others, and i think this would explain Craster's possible link. He may have been a descendant of this merging and hence why his blood matters to them.

Do you have a thread?

 

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

Do you have a thread?

It is a total pain hahaha ive tried coming at it from different angle many times now to figure out how best to tackle it.

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149257-andal-lies/#comment-8083144

This cover's some Andal points.

Ive recently been convinced that the Andals came from Ghis, not Valyia. As it parallels everything else im saying.

This isn't done but if you look, it shows the Long Night beginning 3000 years ago, and ending 2000 years ago with Dawn and Azor Ahai. The Ghis vs Valyria, and the Blackwoods vs Brackens are this struggle of First Men (Valyrians) vs the Andals, the Others, the Ghiscari.

ignore-not-ready-half-my-post-erased-and-have-to-add-back-sorry

Sources are all from the book. I use Maester Denestan, Septon Barth, GRRM and characters from the book when ever i can against Maester Yandel or some other Maesters. 

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149264-1-kingdom-1-curse-1-wall/

This is what i think it all ties to. This is what ended the Long Night, the Wall, and the prevention of the Curse and exclusion of the Others to their own domain. 

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And there is still so much more im trying to understand, like if Sweet Robin is Brandon Starks opposite and on the Side of the Others. 

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22 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’m also inclined to think of the Blackwoods who curiously take a sort of pride in their dying white-wooded weirwood. Blackwood is an odd name for a family who worships white wood. And they were exiled from the North for some reason though any animosity seems to have blown over since the Blackwoods seem very loyal to the Starks. At least I hope so for Bran’s sake.

Given the pride they take in their (dead?) weirwood, I have to wonder if the tree is really in transition or something? Maybe ironwoods used to be weirwoods?

Also, word play to consider: iron/lion and they are linked to fire and sun respectively.

I think the "iron" wordplay might actually be on the French word "noir" (also "noire"). Those words might also be linked to the important river Rhoyne, which would tie in very nicely to a Blackwood / Ironwood connection.

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm working on a full Lannister re-read right now, so I can't point to the significance yet beyond providing a theory as to why Craster is special to the Others which is tied into the Casterly-Lannisters stonemen and the things in the water which want Jaime. The stonemen/greyscale originate from water magic of the Rhoynar and the Others are a purer form of water magic being Ice so I now suspect the Casterly-Lannisters are a special bloodline like the Starks and Targs though it sounds like more of a curse in their case. 

Stonemen of the Rhoynar tied to Casterly Rock (and Oldtown) explains Valyria's avoidance of those places and it also explains why gold tied to water magic might be seen as cursed by Valyria's fire and blood magic. Maybe like mixing ammonia and bleach?

Fascinating! I hope you will share asap when you are ready. I have been intrigued by a lot of the detail in Tyrion's voyages on the Shy Maid and the Selaesori Qhoran - the people on board each ship or boat, where Tyrion sleeps, what he eats and reads, his sewing, his asking Penny to be his father (in a symbolic sense), his voluntary and involuntary swims in the river, the turtle, the Shrouded Lord, etc. If I'm right about the iron / noir / Rhoyne connection, your Blackwood / Ironwood connection and Jaime / things in the water theory could help to clarify why so many forces seem to conspire to get Tyrion into the water while he is in Essos.

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7 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think the "iron" wordplay might actually be on the French word "noir" (also "noire"). Those words might also be linked to the important river Rhoyne, which would tie in very nicely to a Blackwood / Ironwood connection.

Fascinating! I hope you will share asap when you are ready. I have been intrigued by a lot of the detail in Tyrion's voyages on the Shy Maid and the Selaesori Qhoran - the people on board each ship or boat, where Tyrion sleeps, what he eats and reads, his sewing, his asking Penny to be his father (in a symbolic sense), his voluntary and involuntary swims in the river, the turtle, the Shrouded Lord, etc. If I'm right about the iron / noir / Rhoyne connection, your Blackwood / Ironwood connection and Jaime / things in the water theory could help to clarify why so many forces seem to conspire to get Tyrion into the water while he is in Essos.

Just noticed last night all of the mentions of reeds. Facepalm on my part. The Reeds are small water magic people and the Rhoynar are small water magic people.

Love iron/noir/Rhoyne.

A few, such as the Rhoynar, lasted against the tide for centuries, or even millennia. The Rhoynar, who founded great cities along the Rhoyne, were said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making.

 

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41 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

Oh and found this neat-o parallel with Tyrion's dream and Jaime's dream. Tyrion fears the Shrouded Lord at the top of the stairs and ends up going down. Interestingly, Jaime fears the opposite, for him the things in the water are downstairs but when he wants to go up the stairs, he can't. Notice that Tyrion does a tumbling act down the stairs which is an implied reference to Gerion who taught Tyrion to tumble.

The following passages from Tyrion and Jaime strongly recall each other. In dreams, Tyrion fears meeting The Shrouded Lord (Sorrows) at the top of stairs in what sounds like ascending out of a crypt. He later rolls down stairs. Jaime dreams he is forced down stairs into Casterly Rock’s caverns by a dozen hooded (shrouded) men. He falls down stairs into shallow, icy, water.

ADWD Tyrion VI:
Afterward the wine was done and so was he, so he wadded up the girl's clothing and tossed it at the door. She took the hint and fled, leaving him alone in the darkness, sinking deeper into his feather bed. I am stinking drunk. He dare not close his eyes, for fear of sleep. Beyond the veil of dream, the Sorrows were waiting for him. Stone steps ascending endlessly, steep and slick and treacherous, and somewhere at the top, the Shrouded Lord. I do not want to meet the Shrouded Lord. Tyrion fumbled back into his clothes again and groped his way to the stair. Griff will flay me. Well, why not? If ever a dwarf deserved a skinning, I'm him.

Halfway down the steps, he lost his footing. Somehow he managed to break his tumble with his hands and turn it into a clumsy thumping cartwheel. The whores in the room below looked up in astonishment when he landed at the foot of the steps. Tyrion rolled onto his feet and gave them a bow. "I am more agile when I'm drunk." He turned to the proprietor. "I fear I ruined your carpet. The girl's not to blame. Let me pay." He pulled out a fistful of coins and tossed them at the man.

ASOS Jaime VI

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. "Who are you?" he demanded of them. "What business do you have in Casterly Rock?"

They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. Jaime tried to halt, but their spears prodded him on. If only I had my sword, nothing could harm me.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

 

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14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Oh and found this neat-o parallel with Tyrion's dream and Jaime's dream. Tyrion fears the Shrouded Lord at the top of the stairs and ends up going down. Interestingly, Jaime fears the opposite, for him the things in the water are downstairs but when he wants to go up the stairs, he can't. Notice that Tyrion does a tumbling act down the stairs which is an implied reference to Gerion who taught Tyrion to tumble.

The following passages from Tyrion and Jaime strongly recall each other. In dreams, Tyrion fears meeting The Shrouded Lord (Sorrows) at the top of stairs in what sounds like ascending out of a crypt. He later rolls down stairs. Jaime dreams he is forced down stairs into Casterly Rock’s caverns by a dozen hooded (shrouded) men. He falls down stairs into shallow, icy, water.

Great catch!

I know that GRRM has said that early drafts showed Tyrion actually encountering the Shrouded Lord. I assumed the dream substituted for the literal encounter but I have also wondered whether Penny represents a symbolic Shrouded Lord - she keeps wanting to kiss Tyrion, and he keeps resisting.

"Lord of Light, bless your slave Moqorro, and light his way in the dark places of the world," the red priest boomed . . .

That was when Tyrion noticed Penny, watching the mummery from the steep wooden stair that led down beneath the sterncastle. She stood on one of the lower steps, so only the top of her head was visible. Beneath her hood her eyes shone big and white in the light of the nightfire. She had her dog with her, the big grey hound she rode in the mock jousts. [ADwD, Tyrion VIII]

Here, Penny sounds like a stand-in for Melisandre, presiding over the appeal to R'hllor. In one of Melisandre's fire ceremonies at The Wall, the wordplay on "god" and "dog" was used in a description of a fire, so it's probably significant that Penny's dog was at her side in this context.

But this passage links back to the Craster / Tywin "pile of shit" link, as well as your upstairs/downstairs observation. On the deck of the Selaesori Qhoran, Moqorro points out for Tyrion and Penny the looming storm on the horizon:

Penny was lost. "I don't understand. What does it mean?"

"It means we had best get below. Ser Jorah has exiled me from our cabin. Might I hide in yours when the time comes?"

"Yes," she said. "You would be . . . oh . . . "

. . .

"The time has come to hide." Tyrion took Penny by the arm and led her belowdecks.

Pretty and Crunch were both half-mad with fear. The dog was barking, barking, barking. He knocked Tyrion right off his feet as they entered. The sow had been shitting everywhere. Tyrion cleaned that up as best he could whilst Penny tried to calm the animals. Then they tied down or put away anything that was still loose. "I'm frightened," Penny confessed. The cabin had begun to tilt and jump, going this way and that as the waves hammered at the hull of the ship.

. . . "We should play a game," Tyrion suggested. "That might help take our thoughts off the storm. . . . When you were a little girl, did you ever play come-into-my-castle?" [ADwD, Tyrion IX]

On The Shy Maid, Tyrion enjoyed sewing. Here, he is cleaning up after the sow. I think this is all part of the wordplay around sewers and sewing. Tyrion is a self-trained expert on sewers, having cleared the drains at Casterly Rock. (Hmm. I wonder whether we should be looking for a Twelve Labors of Hercules connection, with this representing the Augean Stables? Hercules wears a lion skin and that has a Lannister connotation, for sure. We also get a couple of references to "hide" in these passages, and I suspect there is wordplay around animal skins and skinchanging when we see the word "hide".) As a result of this storm, the "constipated" ship's figurehead of the fragrant civil servant (compared to a King's Hand) will be badly damaged, losing an arm (like Jaime).

It would be great if the Craster / Tywin "pile of shit" link could help us to sort out another layer of the complex sewing motif that GRRM has planted throughout the books. There seems to be something here about the cathartic release of the constipated person - Tyrion clearing the clogged drains might be connected to the voiding of Tywin's bowels at the moment Tyrion kills him. The Ironborn do not sow but at Moat Cailin, Theon touches the tip of a sword to Ralf Kenning's infected wound, setting loose a gush of puss and blood that finally allows Ralf's suffering to end with death. Hmm. That sounds like the Faceless Men rationale for assassination, and we know that Arya practices needle work when she uses her sword. Lysa requests a song about a lady sewing in her garden just when she is about to throw Sansa out the moon door.

I do think Tyrion's ordeal on the Selaesori Qhoran represents a death and rebirth for him, much like Dany's rebirth in Drogo's funeral pyre. The shitting symbolism could be connected to the idea of laying an egg - Tywin was the goose that laid gold eggs according to the rumor that he shitted gold. Maybe Penny's big white eyes (described in the first citation, above) link to the egg / eye / Ei (German word for egg) pun, and the storm allows those eggs to "hatch," leading to rebirth for Tyrion and . . . Ser Jorah? Penny? Moqorro?

By contrast, Craster has no problem with shitting or with producing offspring. He has many daughters and many sons and he lives on a giant compound built of shit. Craster giving his sons to his gods - the ice creatures called The Others - could also connect to the eyes / ice / egg / Ei wordplay. In this case, the newly- "hatched" baby boys go directly from Ei to ice.

But how does this link back to the Jaime nightmare scene for which you noted the strong connection to Tyrion's upstairs / downstairs situations? Part of the strange cargo on board the Selaesori Qhoran is a corpse pickled in brine. I suspect that there is deliberate wordplay here on "brine" and "Brienne." The needle / sewing connection also alludes to Tywin telling Jaime that he gave him a sword - Tyrion was given the sewers; Jaime was given the sword (needle) which Jaime, in turn, gave to Brienne. Comments elsewhere in this forum have proposed that Maester Aemon's corpse might be reanimated aboard the Cinnamon Wind ship that carries Marwyn to Meereen. My guess is that it will be a symbolic reanimation, not literal, but the same idea might apply to a symbolic rebirth of the brine corpse as part of Tyrion's rebirth on the Selaesori Qhoran.

(More wordplay just occurred to me: Vargo Hoat was responsible for cutting off Jaime's sword arm; Jaime's sword is called Oathkeeper. Hoat and Oath. Probably another connection.)

Edited by Seams

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14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Oh and found this neat-o parallel with Tyrion's dream and Jaime's dream. Tyrion fears the Shrouded Lord at the top of the stairs and ends up going down. Interestingly, Jaime fears the opposite, for him the things in the water are downstairs but when he wants to go up the stairs, he can't. Notice that Tyrion does a tumbling act down the stairs which is an implied reference to Gerion who taught Tyrion to tumble.

The following passages from Tyrion and Jaime strongly recall each other. In dreams, Tyrion fears meeting The Shrouded Lord (Sorrows) at the top of stairs in what sounds like ascending out of a crypt. He later rolls down stairs. Jaime dreams he is forced down stairs into Casterly Rock’s caverns by a dozen hooded (shrouded) men. He falls down stairs into shallow, icy, water.

 

ADWD Tyrion VI:
Afterward the wine was done and so was he, so he wadded up the girl's clothing and tossed it at the door. She took the hint and fled, leaving him alone in the darkness, sinking deeper into his feather bed. I am stinking drunk. He dare not close his eyes, for fear of sleep. Beyond the veil of dream, the Sorrows were waiting for him. Stone steps ascending endlessly, steep and slick and treacherous, and somewhere at the top, the Shrouded Lord. I do not want to meet the Shrouded Lord. Tyrion fumbled back into his clothes again and groped his way to the stair. Griff will flay me. Well, why not? If ever a dwarf deserved a skinning, I'm him.

The quote reminds me the ascending to the Eyrie, where lies queen Alyssa's statue, Alyssa who weeps without end ("sorrow's theme; and same with Lysa and the tears of Lys). Could the Shrouded lord be in "reality" a lady ?

As you make the link with Jaime's descending dream, there is another where he meets her mother as a shrouded/hooded and weeping woman. And what must we think of lady Stoneheart, definited as a "hooded woman" ? In a way, Jaime will meet a shrouded lord/lady.

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 2:41 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

But to answer to @Lollygag purpose, if the parallelisms between Tywin and Craster seems for me obvious (and very well exposed here), I'm not convinced by the conclusion "Craster is a Casterly" = LF has also a castle built on a hill of dung/sheep's pellet (and he provoques Eddard/the bear's death before he steals his daughter) but we won't theorize about him as hidden heir of Lann nor the Casterly).

 

On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 9:48 PM, Lollygag said:

The rocks, poo, sheep and the name helped me link Craster to the Casterlys, but the solid connection for me was laid out in the post below. I agree, just the poo/pee/rocks thing isn't enough of a connection because, yeah, that would include LF and a few other characters as possible Casterlys/Lannisters which I don't have any reason to believe that they are.

 

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 3:18 AM, GloubieBoulga said:

For me the "shit" serves to hide some shame/dirty or deadly secret, but lies and crimes were required for that ("the things I do for love"), and inevitably, it smells dung (if it's not dung, the smell is excessive and suspect : Varys plays a lot with that) : the Lannister have the twincest and all consequences (the bastards heirs); Craster hates to be recalled he is a bastard : in a kind of way his practice of incest is also a manner to obtain "pure blood". LF isn't a bastard but don't assumes his "low" born, so he changes his sigils, neglects his castle as if it weren't his home and plays the cuckoo, killing/provoking the fall of some people to take their place (Eddard for ex).

Oh, but that depends entirely upon how deeply you want to dive into the tinfoil, really.  

For instance, including Littlefinger in the Tywin/Craster juxtaposition absolutely makes no sense if you view him as plain old Petyr Baelish, that is true.    BUT, if one were to view Littlefinger as someone else entirely, such as perhaps the secret bastard son of one Tytos Lannister, then the connections can be made. 

From the Wiki:

"Tytos Lannister's mistress was a lowborn woman that Lord Tytos Lannister took for his bedwarmer after his wife Jeyne Marbrand's passing, a few years before he died. Her name is unknown. Lord Tytos's comely mistress was a commonborn woman, the daughter of a candlemaker.

Tytos soon began seating her beside him in the hall and showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on matters of state. She helped herself to Tytos's deceased wife's jewels and clothes. She also began ordering about the household knights, dismissed servants and sat in attendance when Tytos was absent. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Lord Tytos's ear was between his lady's legs.

In 267 AC, Lord Tytos died of a heart attack while climbing stairs to see her. The first thing his heir Tywin Lannister did on his ascension was to expel his father’s grasping lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor abandoned her. The silks and velvets Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself was stripped from her. Tywin had her stripped and sent forth naked to walk through the streets of Lannisport to the docks, so the west could see her for what she was. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power."

"Vain and proud she was, before ... so haughty you'd think she'd forgot she came from dirt. Once we got her clothes off her, though, she was just another whore.
– guard of House Lannister

 

Just imagine it - Tytos' lowborn mistress, who slept her way far above her station and into the affairs of the Lannisters and their governance of the Westerlands, is forcibly exiled from the west after her lover's sudden death sometime in 267.    Newly/early pregnant at the time she is cast from Casterly Rock, she goes wherever whores go and gives birth to a son sometime in 268.  

That son has grey-green eyes and "a nose for gold".

Quote

If ever truly a man had armored himself in gold, it was Petyr Baelish, not Jaime Lannister.   ...   Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him a minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king's other collectors. King Robert had been a prodigious spender. A man like Petyr Baelish, who had a gift for rubbing two golden dragons together to breed a third, was invaluable to his Hand. Littlefinger's rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had been under his beleaguered predecessor... though the crown's debts had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

- A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV

 

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"There's good coin to be made here now that the fighting's done," the miller in the nearest wagon told them cheerfully. "It's the Lannisters hold the city now, old Lord Tywin of the Rock. They say he shits silver."

"Gold," Jaime corrected dryly. "And Littlefinger mints the stuff from goldenrod, I vow."  - A Storm of Swords - Jaime VII 

 

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Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did yourself." - A Storm of Swords, Samwell V

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If truth be told, Littlefinger had been more use at court. He had a gift for finding gold, and never coughed.  - A Feast For Crows, Cersei IV

 

Littlefinger even commands OTHER types of gold!

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Littlefinger laughed. "I ought to make you say it, but that would be cruel … so have no fear, my good lord. For the sake of the love I bear for Catelyn, I will go to Janos Slynt this very hour and make certain that the City Watch is yours. Six thousand gold pieces should do it. A third for the Commander, a third for the officers, a third for the men. We might be able to buy them for half that much, but I prefer not to take chances." - A Game of Thrones, Eddard XIII

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Behind the throne, twenty Lannister guardsmen waited with longswords hanging from their belts. Crimson cloaks draped their shoulders and steel lions crested their helms. But Littlefinger had kept his promise; all along the walls, in front of Robert's tapestries with their scenes of hunt and battle, the gold-cloaked ranks of the City Watch stood stiffly to attention, each man's hand clasped around the haft of an eight-foot-long spear tipped in black iron. They outnumbered the Lannisters five to one.  - A Game of Thrones, Eddard XIV

 

 

After Baelish brings Sansa to the Fingers and shows her his bleak holdings of sheepshit, he serves her wine to calm her nerves - an Arbor vintage.  Arbor Gold is, of course, associated with lies.   He then gives her the preprepared story of Alayne Stone's origin:

 

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"I . . . I could call myself after my mother . . . "
"Catelyn? A bit too obvious . . . but after my mother, that would serve.   AlayneDo you like it?"
"Your mother was a gentlewoman of Braavos, daughter of a merchant prince. We met in Gulltown when I had charge of the port. She died giving you birth, and entrusted you to the Faith. I have some devotional books you can look over. Learn to quote from them. Nothing discourages unwanted questions as much as a flow of pious bleating.   In any case, at your flowering you decided you did not wish to be a septa and wrote to me.  That was the first I knew of your existence."

There may be some element of truth to this backstory...that is, it could be an embellishment of Littlefinger's own origins.    Noblewoman of the East, daughter of a merchant prince = lowborn woman of the West, daughter of a common candle maker.      (Fun Fact:   the meaning of the name "Alayne" in Gaelic is "bright"; it is a variant of the name Helen, which means "light". )      I personally suspect that Petyr's mother, Tytos' former mistress, met Daddy Baelish in a port city like Gulltown, married him, and convinced him to raise her child as his own.    (I further suspect that this is what led Hoster Tully to agree to foster this nobody kid from a nobody house in the Fingers  - he knew what he had.)

Anyway, also note the reference to sheep with the pious bleating - a reference attributed to practitioners of religion who engage in this sheep-ish practice to "get right with the gods", much like Craster sacrificing his 'flock' for the same reason...the flow of bleating (sheep) has served to discourage the unwanted attention of the Gods, and perhaps the unwanted questions about the fate of his sons as well.

Interestingly enough, Littlefinger is also actively working to bring about the downfall of powerful Lannisters  - slowly but surely, he is undermining them while at the same time continuing to amass his own wealth through use of his cleverness and wits.    A true "reversal of fortune" re: the standard tale of Lann the Clever.     IMO the mockingbird is looking to take over a particular nest and claim it as his own.

In sum, I believe that if you look at Littlefinger as a Casterly TYPE - that is, a greedy & gold-loving member of the family holding power over the Rock who was more or less cheated out of his rightful position/inheritance/standing by a LANNister - and factor in the exile to a dingy hellhole at the outpost of nowhere, a fairly isolated place where one can bear a "heavy curse" (be it sacrificial obligation or  taint of bastardy) in relative privacy, then yes....you could absolutely tie House Casterly, Craster, and Petyr Baelish all together with a golden dung-smelling bow. 

 

Or, you could consider that way too crackpot and totally disregard it, your choice.  :P

 

One more smaller item, before I forget:    the depths & tunnels in the mines of the Rock = > the depths of the caves in the north and the tunnels attributed to Gendel and Gorne that transect the Wall...like to Whitetree, where Craster hangs (hung) his hat.

 

Great thread, have enjoyed reading this!





 

Edited by PrettyPig

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3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Or, you could consider that way too crackpot and totally disregard it, your choice.  :P

Surely a bit crackpot for how I see the whole serie, but an interesting one because the text allows it very well (even with LF's birth year, and imo more than Tyrion Targaryen;)). By the way, if it's not at the end the reality, the metaphoric reading works (and for me makes perfectly sense, because I think that all actual characters are "re-playing" a part of the ancient Stark's story, the story of their origins ^^) !

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On 10/16/2017 at 3:42 AM, Lollygag said:

The one assumption that they're left with is that Lord Casterly had no true-born sons and . Not proof of anything to be sure, but this is true of Craster, too. I wonder if the Casterlys were sacrificing their own blood before the Pact and maybe wanted to continue it.

Craster had incestuous relationships with his daughters.

Casterly was known to have several daughters. Could be possible, that Casterlys also practiced incest - maybe tried to keep their bloodline pure, in a way  Targs did? Then  Craster and his ancestors just continued this tradition.

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5 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Surely a bit crackpot for how I see the whole serie

LOL, no worries...this is but the tip of my tinfoil iceberg, I get that not everyone goes as far down the rabbit hole!

5 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

By the way, if it's not at the end the reality, the metaphoric reading works

It does, really...   I actually came up with the Tytos link some time ago, but after reading this thread and the entwinement with Casterly and Craster, it makes even more sense (to me).      For instance, Tytos' unknown mistress was referred to as "grasping", said to have maneuvered her way into his life (and the affairs of the Lannisters) to piggyback on his wealth and power.   Well, what's the American colloquialism for this type of woman?   A golddigger, no?    So another Casterly/Lannister connection there.

Also, @Seamsmay enjoy the wordplay of bleating / bleeding here:  in his comment to Sansa that I quoted above, Littlefinger disdains the "pious bleating" of the emissaries of the Faith, which may foreshadow his own "bleeding" (be it physical or metaphorical)  - Littlefinger is known for hoarding his riches, meaning he is not performing the tithing necessary to keep favor with the gods...such as we see with Craster and his sheep.  Bleating/bleeding could be in reference to paying homage to a higher power via sacrifice.   

This theme could be reflected in the Entertainment Medium That Shall Not Be Named as well:    if events from this regarding Baelish (particularly the end, and more particularly the manner of the end) transpire in a future book the same way as played out in aforementioned medium, there is most certainly a parallel to sacrificial methodology and sheep.   

 

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