larrytheimp

Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

394 posts in this topic

My position on the AMA has always been this

Quote

Anyway, what I was getting to is that if some things were said in the AMA and there isn't much textual evidence to back them up (which I'm still unclear on) then they can be safely ignored from my perspective, even if they don't contradict anything in the books. I honestly don't get why some people are hung up on the AMA (including me :P )

I've said this more than once iirc. In this case it's even worse because it seems to me that the AMA answer contradicts what's said in the golden room scene. I actually skimmed over all my posts since then and I didn't at any point contradict this. *shrug*

Edited by Hello World

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1 hour ago, Hello World said:

My position on the AMA has always been this

I've said this more than once iirc. In this case it's even worse because it seems to me that the AMA answer contradicts what's said in the golden room scene. I actually skimmed over all my posts since then and I didn't at any point contradict this. *shrug*

Ok. Withdrawn. 

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16 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Granted, some of these beefs go back a lot farther than I've been reading these threads. But if you're talking about those immediately preceeding TUC, I seem to recall that you weren't just getting shit for the claim that Kellhus "loved" Esme. Rather, the argument seemed to be with your classification of the story (specifically the relationship between Kellhus and Esmenet) as having strong romantic overtones.

So yeah, he may have loved Esmenet, but it's also pretty clear that she despised him. If that was a romance than Requiem for a Dream was a rags to riches story.

Dude, I brought up this theory pre-TGO after a reread. Anyone can listen to it as its on a podcast. So evidence from TGO and ultimately TUC confirmed it. 

ETA: and nowhere, not once have I ever said anything about Esme loving Kellhus back. Don't know where you got that from. I always had the theory that he loved Esme and wanted to save the world. And, that emotions, something Dunyain don't have, are what was driving him. I said all this in a podcast pre-TGO. So, I don't have to go look for proof, all you need to do is listen to the podcast for confirmation. I came to these ideas while doing a group reread prior to TGO. 

ETA: as to it being a romance, well that was never my idea, or words that came out of my mouth. That was people being, rude and sarcastic at my thoughts that Kellhus loved Esme.... So, don't put that on me. 

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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I guess for me, the AMA has no good option available to it as far as an interpretation.

One interpretation is that Bakker was telling the truth and being upfront. In which case, what he laid out has very poor textual backing, is not a particularly satisfying narrative and is also done in a condescending way to the reader. 

The other interpretation is that Bakker is lying. In which case he is not particularly trustworthy and this gives a lot of credence to the idea that one should not take any of his statements anywhere as reasonable. If he says he had a plan, chances are he doesn't and didn't. If he says he's not sexist, chances are good that he is. The more angrily he denounces something the more likely that it is correct. This does have the effect of making the book more readable and the conclusions more enjoyable, but at the cost of making the books as a series far less palatable to support in any way. 

Neither of these are good. Neither of these lend particular faith in the author. I tend to believe the former, largely because while Bakker is an asshole online he's been consistent about what he says and why, and his extratextual work tends to be fairly uniform; it's hard for me to buy that this, right here, is where he's lying. So, either he's been lying about basically everything in a very consistent way, or he's telling the truth. That said, I respect others for thinking that he's a Lying Liar that Lies, and it's a reasonable conclusion.

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28 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Might want to link to that podcast.

Its a TSAcast. I believe this one. 

Also, I have the theories laid out here and at TSA. They're not hard to find. It was all pre-TGO.

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While I could quote a hundred posts I have on Kellhus and his feelings for Esme, and his feelings first started with Serwe and how he went mad on the Circumfix. Basically, breaking down because he caused the death of one he loved, and then tried to will her back to life. Here is a quote of mine from the Slog of Slogs reread, pre-TGO.

Great points H, and all you said is true. Again, I'm just drawn back to those things in the meeting with Moe and leading up to it. His feelings for Esme, Serwe, hell the Circumfix in general. I think something has changed in Kellhus, and his goals might be tad bit different than what one would expect from a Dunyain. Does he still deceive? Yes. Is everything Mission, and he'll do whatever needs doing to achieve his goals? Yes. Is he ruthless in achieving those goals? Of course. But, I tend to think that everything he dealt with in PoN, changed him, made him a little bit more Man than Dunyain. He might sacrifice nations, but I still believe his interests lie with mankind.

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I don't believe Kellhus ever loved Serwe.

Also, I thought you quit...again.

Edited by Darth Richard II

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14 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I don't believe Kellhus ever loved Serwe.

Also, I thought you quit...again.

I do, reread the Circumfix scene. I think its plain as day his feelings for her. Once he realized he killed her for his own gain. I'm here, buddy.

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Yes, I know what you believe, I'm saying I disagree.

And you might want to stop stamping your feet and saying you're leaving and never posting here again then posting a few hours later. It doesn't help.

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24 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yes, I know what you believe, I'm saying I disagree.

And you might want to stop stamping your feet and saying you're leaving and never posting here again then posting a few hours later. It doesn't help.

I'm just discussing the text. There's a good case to be made in the text, that indeed he had feelings for her. You wanna discuss the text?

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15 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Kellhus also references the growing darkness and speculates about whether or not Esmenet is part of that but it seems odd that all of a sudden she'd be a growing weakness when it's pretty clear it was Ajokli.

Maybe the writing is just not that convincing. Didn't Kellhus hurt Esmenet's feelings by basically not caring for the death of Samarmas? My memory of that scene is pretty weak but I remember that being said in the what has come before section. 

Bakker needed a convenient excuse to do multiple things, take Kelmomas north, allow Achamian to live all those years and Mimara to go to him. Kellhus loving Esmenet or somehow mistaking Ajokli for that love is the excuse. 

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Because really, when you love someone very much the thing you do the most is take them with you to literally the most dangerous place on the planet where it's incredibly easy to accidentally be killed.

Seems legit.

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This is your brain.

This is your brain on Ajokli.

Not even once!

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My feelings on the circumvix(I think i spelled that wrong) scene ha always been that Kellhus freaks out because he releases he can actually fail and make mistakes. The idea that je loved Serwa is just...icky to me, for various reasons. (And of course if you love someone, you get them in a three way, right?).

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Or you're willing to hand them over to an insane, violent, tortured man. Or send her to basically take advantage of Achamian. Love...suuuure. I think it was more shock than anything.

I agree with the sentiment that Kellhus didn't love anyone. He just used them. 

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10 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I do, reread the Circumfix scene. I think its plain as day his feelings for her. Once he realized he killed her for his own gain. I'm here, buddy.

Really?

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2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Really?

Did you reread it? I think there is a case to be made. I've made it before. He tries to will her back to life. There is plenty there that the death effected him. And, he must've had feelings for it to effect him.

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