Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is totally a topic for @LiveFirstDieLater. She has a few threads that discuss these ideas.

As far as the bit you mentioned about Bran and the wood pressing against his face, I considered that myself over time and even wrote an admitted crackpot idea just to speculate and discuss it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145362-brans-skin-is-changing-what-now/

 

Not crack pot at all imo. I asked almost the same question but from a different angle. 

After drinking down weirwood seeds (And possibly blood), what if Bran leaves? Possibly dies, or just time goes by. 

Will Bran turn into a Weirwood with a face in some one's God Wood? Were the faces even really carved? 

[AlaskanSandman]

You know, i make an observation else where, widely dismissed about a relation between the Andals and the Others. Something represented in the Blackwoods vs the Brackens i believe. The Blackwoods of who Bloodraven is a part of and has ravens on it's sigil. 

I also have a theory of 2 brothers at war for their sister throne. 

I can't help but think the other brother, the Crow, who seems to be tied to the Others and the Night's King in this thread, is the brother from legend i keep referring to at war with his other brother, the raven, for their sister/throne. Which i guess could also just be seen as Westeros, they are fighting over Westeros. 

The Crow (The Night's King) vs the Raven (Bloodraven/Azor Ahai/ The Last Greenseerer). Each with their pawns on the board (Dany, Jon, Euron etc.)

[AlaskanSandman]

I can't help but think that Arya may be Bloodraven's true soldier to bring down the Night King/Bran? 

They are training her to be an assassin willing to forget her family and do her job, no matter what. They specifically seem to chose her and groom her too.

Bloodraven says he has been watching Bran from way before Bran was ever born, he watched Eddard born. So Bloodraven is playing the long game here, and he's fully aware of each of the Stark children and their abilities and their direwolves. 

Euron? We know he for sure is the soldier of the Great Other. Following the Three Eyed Crow

[LiveFirstDieLater]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Looks really long, alot of rambling, and the quotes are not clearly defined from the main text of what they're saying, i have some of these same problems haha but the quotes would have helped. I gave it a quick peak though and does mention some of the same stuff while missing others. 

It is a lot of rambling, that I most certainly will agree... so I'll just ramble on...

But the gist of our main point seems the same, Bloodraven isn't the three eyed crow...

I did notice you mention how Ravens are often messengers. This stuck out to me, like you I noticed the tree appearing in Bran's dreams right from the first fall and associate this with Bloodraven.

However, I think there are other misinterpretations from that first fall too... like Bloodraven's lair being the heart of winter. We talk about the three eyed crow "opening" bran's third eye... but it seems to me that the three eyed crow is taking memories away from Bran when he pecks him... like the opposite of delivering a message (like a raven).

Bloodraven is of course a white raven, the heralds of winter are also white, red eyed, ravens.

As for all crows are liars... Part of me want to believe that this has to do with the purpose of the nights watch, maybe tied to the fact that the nights watch vow seems to have been amended, maybe due to the Night's King.  Also passing strange that the Night's Watch fought in the Battle for the Dawn if the Wall was only raised after the Long Night. Then again the oath does say "walls" not "wall".

Anyway we clearly agree on some of this stuff (and of course there's a lot we don't know) but great topic!

[Rufus Snow]

35 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Bloodraven is of course a white raven, the heralds of winter are also white, red eyed, ravens.

 

Er, they are heralds of changing seasons, not just of winter, and they are NOT red-eyed. That kind of affects the parallels you can draw from them...

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

Shireen gave a cry of delight. Even Cressen had to admit the bird made an impressive sight, white as snow and larger than any hawk, with the bright black eyes that meant it was no mere albino, but a truebred white raven of the Citadel.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

The white ravens of the Citadel did not carry messages, as their dark cousins did. When they went forth from Oldtown, it was for one purpose only: to herald a change of seasons.

 

 

 

EDIT to add:

 

I wonder what you make of this little tidbit, how does it affect the theory?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

It was cool and dim inside the castle walls. An ancient weirwood filled the yard, as it had since these stones had first been raised. The carved face on its trunk was grown over by the same purple moss that hung heavy from the tree's pale limbs. Half of the branches seemed dead, but elsewhere a few red leaves still rustled, and it was there the ravens liked to perch. The tree was full of them, and there were more in the arched windows overhead, all around the yard. The ground was speckled by their droppings. As they crossed the yard, one flapped overhead and he heard the others quorking to each other. "Archmaester Walgrave has his chambers in the west tower, below the white rookery," Alleras told him. "The white ravens and the black ones quarrel like Dornishmen and Marchers, so they keep them apart."

There maybe something or nothing in that, but a conflict between black and white ravens is suggestive.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

Er, they are heralds of changing seasons, not just of winter, and they are NOT red-eyed. That kind of affects the parallels you can draw from them...

 

 

 

Great point! You are absolutely right, I'm slow this morning...

Heralds of the Seasons I should say.

Quote

"That is so, my lady. The white ravens fly only from the Citadel." Cressen's fingers went to the chain about his neck, each link forged from a different metal, each symbolizing his mastery of another branch of learning; the maester's collar, mark of his order. In the pride of his youth, he had worn it easily, but now it seemed heavy to him, the metal cold against his skin. "They are larger than other ravens, and more clever, bred to carry only the most important messages. This one came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory."

Although I always attributed this to the fact that they belong to the Maesters and not the old gods, aka they aren't the real thing. Not really sent from the Old Gods but a product of man.

They also bicker with the other birds.

And there is this oddity:

Quote

 

"The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord," the fool sang on, swinging his head and making his bells clang and clatter. Bong dong, ring-a-ling, bong dong.

"Lord," the white raven shrieked. "Lord, lord, lord." 

"A fool sings what he will," the maester told his anxious princess. "You must not take his words to heart. On the morrow he may remember another song, and this one will never be heard again." He can sing prettily in four tongues, Lord Steffon had written . . .

 

Also I find I have to say it in the Randy Marsh voice.. lord lord lord...

Also, side note, there is a bloody raven as well, the one who delivers the news of Ned's Death to Winterfell... 

 

[Rufus Snow]

Yeah, old Patches is bit of a dark horse,never quite know how to take him. I tended to assume the shadow's were Mel's, but there could be others he means.

I still wonder why the cleverest birds have the easiest duties? I mean they only go out for the changing of the seasons, and they just carry parchment like the black ones. Why does that require an especially clever bird? OK, the size makes sense - they are bigger and stronger and more likely to survive with their important tidings, so maybe the intelligence feeds into this too? It still seems like an underusage of their abilities - as the response to Patches shows, they can talk!

Which recalls this:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."

Does this have something to do with the maesters' antipathy to magic?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Yeah, old Patches is bit of a dark horse,never quite know how to take him. I tended to assume the shadow's were Mel's, but there could be others he means.

I'm not sure that's what "dark horse" means... but I certainly can't be sure of how to take him. I always find myself thinking of the shadows dancing in Miri's Tent. The Wolf and the Man Aflame

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I still wonder why the cleverest birds have the easiest duties? I mean they only go out for the changing of the seasons, and they just carry parchment like the black ones. Why does that require an especially clever bird? OK, the size makes sense - they are bigger and stronger and more likely to survive with their important tidings, so maybe the intelligence feeds into this too? It still seems like an underusage of their abilities - as the response to Patches shows, they can talk!

They're something... it seems like using the normal Ravens as message carriers is a non-magic way to replicate their use by the old gods it seems. As you said, this begs questions about the white ravens... are they some sort of carry over too? If so what do they imitate? Or are they a creation entirely of the Maesters... 

Ive wondered before if ravens are like homing pigeons in that they return to where they're raised... so a raven from winterfell could be caged and released from castle black to carry a message, but then would have to be brought elsewhere in a cage before being used again.

Because it's pretty clear that the white ravens don't work that way, they are all raised in the citadel and find their way to every major castle in Westeros and know where to go and which castle to go to?

mysteries abound...

7 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Which recalls this:

Does this have something to do with the maesters' antipathy to magic?

I'm torn, on the one hand the Maesters seem opposed to magic according to The Mage, but they also have a lot of information on it, give out Valyrian Steel Links (presumably meaning they can reforge them), and have glass candles... Also, Walgrave wantes to be eaten by the white ravens when he dies... this is very reminiscent of the old gods and doesn't seem very Anti-Magic. 

[Dragonsbone]

My belief is that the 3EC is Bran himself talking and manupulating Bran via his dreams and not Bloodraven. There is a slightly hint, although not in the books I am afraid, rather on the thing we are not suposed to talk about.  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

19 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

My belief is that the 3EC is Bran himself talking and manupulating Bran via his dreams and not Bloodraven. There is a slightly hint, although not in the books I am afraid, rather on the thing we are not suposed to talk about.  

I will not discuss the three-eyed raven...

 

but in the books the crow in bran's falling dream doesn't have three eyes until after bran gets his... that's the biggest clue I've found for what you suggest, an option I believe is certainly possible...

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It is a lot of rambling, that I most certainly will agree... so I'll just ramble on...

But the gist of our main point seems the same, Bloodraven isn't the three eyed crow...

I did notice you mention how Ravens are often messengers. This stuck out to me, like you I noticed the tree appearing in Bran's dreams right from the first fall and associate this with Bloodraven.

However, I think there are other misinterpretations from that first fall too... like Bloodraven's lair being the heart of winter. We talk about the three eyed crow "opening" bran's third eye... but it seems to me that the three eyed crow is taking memories away from Bran when he pecks him... like the opposite of delivering a message (like a raven).

Bloodraven is of course a white raven, the heralds of winter are also white, red eyed, ravens.

As for all crows are liars... Part of me want to believe that this has to do with the purpose of the nights watch, maybe tied to the fact that the nights watch vow seems to have been amended, maybe due to the Night's King.  Also passing strange that the Night's Watch fought in the Battle for the Dawn if the Wall was only raised after the Long Night. Then again the oath does say "walls" not "wall".

Anyway we clearly agree on some of this stuff (and of course there's a lot we don't know) but great topic!

Bahahahah absolutely!! Ramble on!! hhahaha  I actually lifted that from your final paragraph of that thread hahahaha mostly just the quotes really threw me once looking at it more  Im terrible at drawing up my own theories, or so im told lol 

We definitely see eye to eye on alot

And i do wonder about that "walls" bit. Though, im not fully resolved of what i think of the walls of Volantis or the such. I feel like im missing some thing, Though going through this stuff takes alot of time and there are alot of subjects, some you have to come back to repeatedly. 

[Rufus Snow]

33 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not sure that's what "dark horse"

Sorry, it's a bit of a colloquialism, and I forget not everyone is speaking their native language online. To call someone a 'dark horse' is to say they keep their secrets close, conceal their motives, and are perhaps a bit sinister.

 

35 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ive wondered before if ravens are like homing pigeons in that they return to where they're raised... so a raven from winterfell could be caged and released from castle black to carry a message, but then would have to be brought elsewhere in a cage before being used again.

Because it's pretty clear that the white ravens don't work that way, they are all raised in the citadel and find their way to every major castle in Westeros and know where to go and which castle to go to?

Yes, I think you're right on this. The White Ravens are probably better at getting around - I think I read somewhere that the black ravens tend to know only one castle, whilst exceptional ones might know up to three. The white ones would be much better than that, I expect. So that would explain it then.

 

Bit of a diversion from Bloodraven, I'm afraid, so to get back to normal programming.... I had assumed for a while that BR was the three-eyed crow, but now I'm not so sure. More to add to my re-reading agenda.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Sorry, it's a bit of a colloquialism, and I forget not everyone is speaking their native language online. To call someone a 'dark horse' is to say they keep their secrets close, conceal their motives, and are perhaps a bit sinister.

 

Yes, I think you're right on this. The White Ravens are probably better at getting around - I think I read somewhere that the black ravens tend to know only one castle, whilst exceptional ones might know up to three. The white ones would be much better than that, I expect. So that would explain it then.

 

Bit of a diversion from Bloodraven, I'm afraid, so to get back to normal programming.... I had assumed for a while that BR was the three-eyed crow, but now I'm not so sure. More to add to my re-reading agenda.

It's all connected and technically still on subject some what  I think these topics should breech into other subjects other wise we never get at the bigger connections

[Dragonsbone]

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I will not discuss the three-eyed raven...

 

No, it is not what you think. It is not about the 3ER. It is from the very early seasons, second I think. There is no 3ER at this point. It is a short scene, not spoilery, and rather a hint.

 

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

but in the books the crow in bran's falling dream doesn't have three eyes until after bran gets his... that's the biggest clue I've found for what you suggest, an option I believe is certainly possible...

Wow. That is good, I have never thought about that. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

Sorry, it's a bit of a colloquialism, and I forget not everyone is speaking their native language online. To call someone a 'dark horse' is to say they keep their secrets close, conceal their motives, and are perhaps a bit sinister.

No I speak english pretty well haha, that's just not what it means...

it means to be an unlikely victor, like in a horse race...

but yes, it's certainly not all clear to me either,  but I find it very hard to believe bloodraven is the three eyed crow at this point...

[Rufus Snow]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

that's just not what it means...

It is around here

Anyway, I found the bit about clever ravens:

Quote

The Winds of Winter - Theon I

"Both." Stannis snapped the word out. "A maester's raven flies to one place, and one place only. Is that correct?"

The maester mopped sweat from his brow with his sleeve. "N-not entirely, Your Grace. Most, yes. Some few can be taught to fly between two castles. Such birds are greatly prized. And once in a very great while, we find a raven who can learn the names of three or four or five castles, and fly to each upon command. Birds as clever as that come along only once in a hundred years."

Clearly, the white ones are far more capable...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

It is around here

Haha whatever, it's all good

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Anyway, I found the bit about clever ravens:

Clearly, the white ones are far more capable...

Yes, so that is interesting... I'm not at all sure what to make of it yet, but I do think there is something to these birds...

Also, I thought it was interesting how they called out Pate, or called out to Pate, or something... and did it have to do with going back for the silver?:

 

Quote

 

If I pick that up, I am a thief, he remembered thinking. The key was old and heavy, made of black iron; supposedly it opened every door at the Citadel. Only the archmaesters had such keys. The others carried theirs upon their person or hid them away in some safe place, but if Walgrave had hidden his, no one would ever have seen it again. Pate snatched up the key and had been halfway to the door before turning back to take the silver too. A thief was a thief, whether he stole a little or a lot. "Pate," one of the white ravens had called after him, "Pate, Pate, Pate." 

"Do you have my dragon?" he asked the alchemist

 

.

 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well it's not what my theory hinges on, as mentioned above, there is more than enough clues to hint to him not being the Three Eye'd Crow as he's always the Tree in visions. 

 

Yes, but unlike Bran, Bloodraven would likely be aware of Rhllorism and or Fire magic on some level. Fire and Blood, it's the house words after all of House Targaryen. His sister too, was a practitioner. So his introduction to it was likely by fire, which is interesting given the catch of Bran's fire vision in his last chapter and that the Three Eye'd Crow is seeking him, with Deep Blue Eyes described like that only of the Others, The Corpse Queen, and Hugor of the Hill's wife.

 

This i agree with, though they are not doing it for the same reasons i think. Im feeling like Bloodraven needs him to full fill what ever ties Bran to the Night's King, as a possible way to bring him down, possibly by killing Bran.

Remember, Bloodraven is the last Greenseerer, not Bran. Bran doesn't even fit the description. Neither Golden, Green, or Red eyes. 

It was along the lines of "He's akin to Bran the Builder and Lann the Clever, and no more likely alive than they are".

No more "likely". That sounds like not putting your self into a corner. That's not, "yes" he's alive and its' not "No" he's not alive. That's, i dont wanna say just yet, cause what would be the point in writing my book. 

The pieces are there though, it's just up to you as the reader/investigator to have to make a judgement on whether or not your gonna chose to believe something and your "hunch" or your not. It's a gamble always, but at some point, you have to take an educated guess and not stay on the fence. 

Sure it's easiest to just discredit it all, but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong  

Not to discredit anything, Ser.   I simply don't see any current evidence for the real Nights King to pop up.   Surely there is something else 3EC/Old Gods/COTF/Bloodraven/NW/Giants/Euron/Jon/R'hllor/The Others could intend for someone as gifted and powerful and young Bran Stark.  And thanks for the quote it came to me as soon as I read it.  Agreed, there may be some bet hedging here, but that goes in both directions.   Nights King could still just be a legend.  As you graciously allow, I choose to stay on the side of the fence that offers me myriad possibility.  

We both mentioned Sheira Seastar, Bloodraven's half sister.  Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote, but I feel it's necessary to get us on the same page for this conversation.   Of course we have no idea what types of sorcery the siblings studied, but the word sorcery indicates magic and R'hllor is a religion.  We have no evidence either way if they studied the Lord of Light or not, but it's not magic.  Most of those nutty Targs studied dragons and fire--probably some blood magic, as you allow.  I think if BR & SS were studying or even practicing R'hllorists we would have seen some evidence to support it.   They were half Targ, partial dragons themselves.   Now that you bring it up, R'hllor would be a good fit for the Targaryans, it's just not substantiated.   

Do you care to offer some of this evidence for the NK so that I can weigh it?   Perhaps you've caught something I missed.   I read this entire topic and every post.  It's a good conversation.  

[White Ravens]

47 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Anyway, I found the bit about clever ravens:

Quote

Quote

The Winds of Winter - Theon I

"Both." Stannis snapped the word out. "A maester's raven flies to one place, and one place only. Is that correct?"

The maester mopped sweat from his brow with his sleeve. "N-not entirely, Your Grace. Most, yes. Some few can be taught to fly between two castles. Such birds are greatly prized. And once in a very great while, we find a raven who can learn the names of three or four or five castles, and fly to each upon command. Birds as clever as that come along only once in a hundred years."

Quote

Clearly, the white ones are far more capable...

My take is that the black ravens are trained much as homing pigeons are.  They are really good at finding their way back home so you teach them to fly between a distant castle and their home castle by transporting them by cage to the new location and then letting them find their way back home.  When Sam was charged with keeping the ravens during Mormont's ranging beyond the wall he had several ravens in cages that he used.  Messages were sent back to Castle Black by tying notes to their legs and simply letting them fly home.  But if you had a white raven that is capable of understanding human speech you could potentially describe destinations and directions for them to follow without them having been there before, or you could give them multiple destinations, or you could give them nuanced messages like "Deliver this message to this person only" or "Deliver this second message only if the intended recipient is alone".

[Rufus Snow]

10 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

But if you had a white raven that is capable of understanding human speech you could potentially describe destinations and directions for them to follow without them having been there before, or you could give them multiple destinations, or you could give them nuanced messages like "Deliver this message to this person only" or "Deliver this second message only if the intended recipient is alone".

I'd agree it's to do with describing destinations - however, I can't see much use for the second part (nuance) given that the White Ravens only carry change-of-season messages.

To expand on your comments re Sam, he had separate raven cages specifically for Castle Black and for Eastwatch, again confirming the 'homing' tendency of your rank and file raven.

I would imagine back in the days of the Singers when they skinchanged with their birds and taught them to speak the messages, the birds would have been more capable of navigating to different locations, too, but that is just a conjecture.