kissdbyfire Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: I think I even elected the "Bran does this unthinkable and totally OOC act against Meera" as my choice for worst theory. While plausible it just completely is complete and utter character assassination for Brandor. Sorry, was totally incommunicado since yesterday morning. Best job in the universe, but requires me to live like it's 200 yrs ago. I suppose every song must indeed have its balance! Yeah, can't say off the top of my head if it is the absolutely 'worsest' of all - because there's sooooooooo many out there, lots of competition in the 'worst theory evah!' category. But I absolutely agree it's way, way up there. The thing is, not only it's despicable and OC but there's nothing in the text that really hints at it. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Indeed. While killing children is an unforgivable crime at least the killing of Bran and Rickon could have been construed as a necessary evil to maintain his authority in Winterfell, horrible though it was. With the Miller's boys, they really were just two little commoner kids who were slaughtered along with their mother in a barbaric act of cruelty. Worse still, Theon thinks at least once (maybe twice) about how he had slept with their mother, meaning younger one could even have been his own bastard son. It's a real life reverse rendition of Bael and his Stark son, let's call him "Brandon the Fatherless". Exactly that. It's so horrifying... And in Dance you can see Theon is taking [baby] steps in the right direction, but he still uses the fact that the boys were only the miller's sons to justify it to himself. Like, totes okay, the were just some peasants kids. So yeah, for any real and meaningful 'redemption' (don't really like redemption here but can't think of a more adequate word) to happen he has to acknowledge how horrible that was. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Heh, I hadn't thought about it that much though I did wonder if there is a heat source near Hardhome. Safe bet. Or should I say 'safe-ish' since the Martin is a tricksy bird and I usually don't feel 100% sure of almost anything... But it does make sense imo. In my head the Doom and the disaster at HH happened at the same time - despite the 100 yr diff- and/or had the same cause. And volcanoes. But then why didn't a similar disaster happen at WF and DS? Is that even possible? For some type of volcanic/seismic stuff that be goi g on worldwide yet not affect all the volcanoes? Does anyone reading this have any idea about any of this? I'd love to learn a bit. Maybe @bent branch? On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: I have always been sceptical on this idea that there is only the single greenseer left in existence as despite the rarity of the ability I suspect that Bloodraven might have approached several "dreamers" in an attempt to find a successor. I keep going back and forth on this... My most consistent thought on this is, I think there is (was, coz now we have Bran?) only one left, BR. But I don't think it's always been like this. I agree that BR probably approached others too, like Euron for instance. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: On the other hand, I see BE getting ensnared either because he was finally tricked, he was addicted to the knowledge it have him and got stuck, or he did it with the knowledge it would prolong his life until he could meet Bran. I think options 2 & 3 are possible, I still don't see 1. But mostly I think he needed to attach himself to the tree to prolong his lifespan. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: If the low-levels of magic in the world has affected the number of greenseers being born into the world, leaving those who might have had the potential with reduced powers or incomplete (like Jojen who can only dream) then it would make sense that BR might see it as his "civic duty" to hold out as long as possible to lure the handful of kids born out to him, or even that he was holding out specifically for Bran - or at least one of those Stark kids. He hints he can see the future so it's not beyond the realms of possibility he foresaw when Bran would be born a greenseer and knew he needed to live long enough to pass that knowledge to Bran. The decrease in magic being the reason for the reduced number of greenseers etc makes perfect sense. BR had his eyes in the Starks for a while. And the way he says it makes it perfectly unclear whether he was waiting for Bran specifically or just knew something special was gonna come at some point. Sometimes I hate Martin! (No, I him) On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: If he had foreknowledge of Bran's coming then he could have even masterminded ahead of time who his companions would be. Yeah. We know he saw at least Bran and Eddard's births, and he also tells Bran he saw his first steps. I'm not sure he foresaw Bran, but he waiting for someone to be born out of that bloodline. At some point, after having watched who knows how many Starks' early years, he concluded Bran was 'it'. At which point he starts to work on getting him help, decides on the Reeds, and starts sending Jojen the greendreams. ADwD, Bran II "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. "A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Frankly, I would squeal like a little girl of BR were to swan into Winterfell to sort those she-wolves. And yes, if he was there in person then he would know face-to-face rather than through his thousand eyes whether Dunk got it on with Young Nan. I don't wanna think about it too much, b/c squeal doesn't even begin to cover it! On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: (Keep saying it, I need reassurance sometimes because a surprising amount of people really believe that creepypasta level theory.) People are strange. Or maybe we are strange? Whatever. No. Creepy. Paste. Remember I said there are [very] few things I feel sure about? Well, this is one of those very few. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Weeeeeeelllllllll I guess I'm just trying to explain in my own head why there are so many bones littering that cave. It might be semi-instinctive for them to want to die within the grape of a weirwood so as to join the godhead. I wondered if the sap might well contain the blood of past greenseers - Hmm. How, though? How would they preserve old blood? Or maybe it's mixed with the sap straight away and the sap keeps it from going bad? Sounds disgusting! On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: maybe even Brynden's own blood since he is hooked into that tree - as well as normal tree sap. Yeah, not impossible at all. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Even if there is 0% blood inn the sap, we also can't rule out a hallucinogenic property to it like shade of the evening. Now this is very much what I think. Like LSD to open the mind, increase awareness, give insight, etc etc. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: As you say, we probably won't know any time soon and this might even be one of those questions that never actually gets answered. Only inferred. True. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Bran already feels the scope of his loss as he reflects on how he will never be a knight a lot (yet, as I have argued his joining with Hodor is a way for him to live that dream) and even reflected for the first time in the slim likelihood of him ever marrying when facing the prospect of marrying the trees. Out of curiosity, what do you think Bran's goal post in the series is? Will he return to Winterfell to stay or go somewhere else (IoF for example)? Will he live or die? If he lives, will be lose his companions like the Last Hero did? I think Bran lives. And while I don't think we'll get 'the one true hero who saves the world' in this story, I think Bran is the closest to that we'll see. I think he will go to Winterfell at some point. He is the Prince of Winterfell, I don't see that not happening. But will he stay there? No idea. Tend to think not, but zero certainty here. The IoF would be so awesome, and it would be the perfect way to introduce the IoF to the readers. I hope that's the plan, that we will get to see the IoF, and with Bran as the PoV. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Yeah, it goes back to the horrible Brandor-Meera speculation theories. Last thing I wanna see is my girl Meera getting sacrificed for feels sake and aiding in turning Bran into some woobie destroyer of worlds! This sounds like a job for Google... I've had a read and I must say it's an interesting idea. Fitting, too, if your Dunk-Hodor connection is true. Funnily enough, as a counterpoint to some of the theories people have put forward about who Howland's wife might be, I have speculated that much like Jenny has no surname and is simply nicknamed "of Oldstones" for where Duncan the Small met her, Jyana lacking a family name (despite GRRM happily running off several crannogman vassals to the Reeds: Fenn, Greengood, Quagg, Peat, Boggs, Cray and Blackmyre) even in ADwD appendix might simply be because she had none to begin with. So, I guess the idea that a child, most likely a daughter, married into the Reeds if Jenny was herself a crannogman and that daughter married Howland's father or grandfather. But yes, it is rare to read a secret Targ thread that doesn't make me roll my eyes. I like it! It is a good read, and lots of thought-provoking ideas. On 22/02/2018 at 10:48 AM, Faera said: Also, Jon and Meera...? Hmm, I honestly never considered that one before outside of speculative "what if Ned found his kids betrothals?" threads. Most people tend to go down the route of Val as the anti-Dany in my experience... Yeah, I don't see .Jon & Meera. "Val is Jon's true queen"' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 Wow, you've put forward even more great ideas, @Seams! I've been coming back and forth to this for a day or so now because there is so much to I want to say.I'm going to have to go through it bit by bit as there is a lot here and I'm sorry if I don't cover everything is tons of detail as I might go on and on and on otherwise, aha! On 23/02/2018 at 3:45 AM, Seams said: The idea of Bran and Hodor combining to form a "perfect knight" is opening such vast new areas of thinking for me - I realize your thread is evolving in lots of Bran-related directions and I have not kept up. So I will just toss in some thoughts about what GRRM is showing us in the "champions" and "broken men," "mystery knights" and "perfect knights" that are starting to come together in various arcs. The OP and your previous post on @CF's Sorcerers and Swords thread theorized that Bran and Hodor represent aspects needed to make a complete knight: a strong body and a quick mind. Separately, neither Bran or Hodor could function well in a combat situation. This insight about concocting a warrior out of disparate inputs really clicked with me and helped pieces from other character arcs to fall into place in my mind. For instance, Qyburn uses mysterious dark magic to make Gregor Clegane's headless body into the perfect member of the kings guard to champion Cersei in her trial by combat. Among the ingredients Qyburn uses to achieve his outcome are Falyse Stokeworth, Cersei's maid, Senelle, and some puppeteers. Ser Gregor is often referred to as a "butcher" throughout the books. He is also associated with a marvelous, jointed wooden knight that his brother, Sandor, tried to play with. When Gregor discovered Sandor had taken his puppet, he pushed the younger boy's face into the fire, disfiguring him for life. So we have women, butchering and puppet (or mummer) inputs in producing the guard known as Ser Robert Strong. The moment you wrote the first bold second my mind immediately jumped to Qyburn and, lo and behold, I read the next paragraph and see we are of the same mind! He is someone who has literally manufactured a knight out of bits and pieces of people like some medieval answer to Frankenstein. I wonder if electricity played any role in kick-starting Gregor's heart again once he'd replaced all that tainted blood and organs with those of those tormented, dead women. Of course, unlike the Monster in Mary Shelly's work, I see no way in which Robert Strong will be anymore better natured than Gregor Clegane was. While "Adam" the Monster was driven to murder by the way people treated him and spurned his creator because he could not function in a prejudiced society, Gregor's life was already tormented by the intolerable headaches he felt and I can only see his prolonged suffering eventually causing "Robert Strong" to completely go on a rampage. Robert Strong is, of course, different to the Bran-Hodor or "Brandor" as several posters here have titled him. Bran and Hodor are two parts of a whole that, in a sense, need each other in order to be functional as a "perfect knight" -- Bran's bravery (and quick-mind, as you say) together with Hodor's bodily strength -- while Gregor Clegane was functional as a warrior before his "change", if not a "knight". Sandor's rejection of knighthood is rooted in his disgust that a known murderer, rapist and likely kinslayer could be elevated to knighthood by Rhaegar Targaryen no less, this supposed Perfect Courtly King Arthur-like Prince in the eyes of those who remember him fondly i.e. nearly everyone other than Robert Baratheon. Gregor's transformation into Robert Strong seems to have made him a more functional knight as he is supposedly blindly loyal to Cersei and Qyburn, willing to destroy all the enemies of the crown. It is interesting also that Gregor's transformation into Robert Strong involved the torture and body parts of victims who appear to have chiefly been women. Again, adding a feminine aspect to him. (There is also that fun speculation that goes around that Gregor's head might have been replaced with another, too). To tie both "knights" together, I have seen theories dotted about on Reddit (IDK if they ever made it here) that Bran might one day take control of Gregor in order to complete the valonqar prophecy. I don't personally believe this but it's a fun thought experiment. Quote Not surprisingly, I suspect another necessary ingredient will be just the right sword or weapon. There also seems to be a requirement that the warrior is not an actual knight, either because of injury (Bran), gender (Brienne, Arya) or rejecting the institution of knighthood (the Hound). The original model for this ideal warrior is Ser Duncan the Tall. In spite of Dunk telling people that Ser Arlan of Pennytree knighted him when no one else is around, there is no confirmation of that and Dunk has motive to fib so he can participate in the tournament. I'm sure there are other elements I haven't recognized - symbolic death? a beheading? blood on his/her hands? a broken vow? a ruined home? tragic loss of family? contact with a deserter or turncloak? contact with someone in disguise? an encounter with a "stranger"? a false identity? sexual violence? death of a child? a dog? fire? ice? We may be able to pin down more pieces if this pattern becomes clearer. The message might even be that knighthood itself is a pointless institution. Not only is it noticeably religious, as it is tied heavily to the Faith of the Seven in asoiaf, but having a "Ser" at the beginning of one's name does not indicate the principles it supposedly represents in the stories. Again, much like in Arthurian knighthood, there are different levels of what can be termed as a truly perfect knight. I wouldn't really call Arya a "knight" character (she's more of a trickster) but Brienne is an example of a warrior seeking to be "perfect knight" and slowly realising that such a thing does not truly exist. Knighthood is a state of mind and being a good or perfect knight feels more like following your own moral compass as much as a pre-set code of chivalry. (Again, in Arthurian legend, I always felt there was a reason Gawain was sometimes cast as the "perfect knight" as he often did show the balance in his stories of following possessing skill, following the code but also knowing when to adapt to a situation etc.) Quote The "making of a mystery knight" pattern applies to several - perhaps numerous - other warriors being assembled in ASOIAF using similar ingredients. GRRM is putting together the pieces without us being aware that these warriors are under construction. In much the way that Septon Meribald describes a man becoming a "broken man" after being drafted and then discovering that soldiers and their brothers-in-arms often die from disease or non-combat causes; combat is horrible; weapons, training and provisions are inadequate; hardship can drive a man to become an outlaw and deserter and the man will often forget about home after being in an army for a period of time. The men become more useful as military pawns when they are hollowed out and they forget their past lives. Well, let us look to "the" major mystery knight in asoiaf who has yet to be officially unmasked and may have, in fact, literally been several people: the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I discussed this a little in @Curled Finger's 'Harrenhal through the eyes of LC' thread, that perhaps we are wrong to presume that the KotLT had to be a single person and had to have been Lyanna. Regardless of how great her horse riding skills were fighting against three already proven knights was a massive risk. It sincerely makes me think that it was impossible for her to have realistically done without some guarantee of victory by use of magic or practical tricks (not unlike Loras used against Gregor) in order to essentially cheat, likely provided by Howland. I have no doubt that Lyanna did don the helm at some point, whether she rode against the three knights herself or had one of her brothers do it for some or all of them, thanks to the emphasis on the booming voice: Quote When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' - Bran II, ASoS From my recollection, this is the only italicized speech in the whole KotLT story, which to me was done to imply the knight could have been a girl. After all, it is Meera telling the story and the emphasis of those words always makes me envision her putting on a deep, booming voice. So, we have a girl giving a booming voice to a supposedly male knight who might have been a girl, too. I even toyed with the idea that Howland and Lyanna (and maybe a third) could have all at some point or another, whether in joust or during the ransoming, been the knight. No skinchanging, no sewing together the bodies of different people -- just a group of teenagers pulling a prank on a corrupt system of knighthood. Howland's own home of the Neck seems to be be a literal graveyard for knights, a place where greedy knights looking for that personal glory and conquest go to die. Quote Bran and Hodor aren't in an army, but a lot of the elements from the Gregor story are part of their journey north. Actually, I wonder whether the "mystery knight" that includes Bran and Hodor is not just those two people combined, but is comprised of all of the group traveling to Bloodraven's cave: Bran, Hodor, Jojen and Meera. If some feminine element is necessary, Meera's presence could provide that. The group certainly endures hardship. They end up butchering the elk (and Bran often tastes blood from the animals that the direwolf Summer kills while Bran is warging). The puppet aspect might be fulfilled by Bran's skinchanging and warging - sometimes he is inside of Hodor and no one (except Hodor, of course) realizes that Bran is looking out through Hodor's eyes. Meera's storytelling might qualify as a type of mummer or puppet show. Or the puppetmaster might be Bloodraven, drawing Bran (and Jojen?) to his cave with dreams and visions in order to fulfill a destiny that was apparently foreseen long ago. Is Bloodraven playing the role of Qyburn, making a mystery knight using spare parts delivered by the three young people and Hodor? That's an interesting way to think about it. I personally I have always seen the knightly qualities of Bran and Hodor as something separate from the group dynamic of Bran and his companions including Coldhands. It usually felt like the traditional "Team" of true companions (maybe even the "Five-Man Ban") with a twist. You have the Hero (Bran), the Heart (Meera), the Gentle Giant (Hodor), the Brains (Jojen) and Lancer (Coldhands). Yet, now that I think about it, maybe these are the ingredients of a perfect knight... and maybe in order to truly function you need more than one person to cover for the flaws of the others. I do worry about the Qyburn/Bloodraven parallel though as it makes me worry that parts might become literal rather than symbolic... I love all these thoughts on the feminine representation, too, not least because there is only one dominant female presence in Bran's life now and she herself is a "female warrior", namely Meera. As the feminine aspect of the warrior for the 'Bran-de-bunch', she does not need the Bran-Hodor to necessarily defend her, pretty much helping them as often as they do her. Yet, despite being in a traditionally unfeminine role, unlike tomboyish characters like Arya or Asha, her personality still aligns quite strongly with traditional feminine traits i.e. being a conflict resolver and carer for the group. Moreover, in the murmurs' show of knightly ideals, she plays the role of essentially Bran's "lady love" in the idolised vision of knighthood ('"Thank you, Meera," he said. "My lady."'), which still prevails in his mind. The difference is that in contrast to traditional chivalric stories of knights and fair maids, Bran values her because of how she makes him feel ('It was hard to sulk with Meera. She was much more cheerful than her brother, and always seemed to know how to make him smile. Nothing ever scared her or made her angry.') rather than her looks. Thus, if Bran's group make a functioning "warrior/knight" this might explain why seeing her cry symbolises a breakdown in the dynamic. The more strained and conflicted everyone in the group feels, the more Bran seems to cling onto it and, most of all, increases his grasp over Hodor in order to fulfil the knightly act of comforting his maiden fair, though he never goes through with it. Quote Sandor kills the butcher's boy, essentially butchering him. He loses his "head," like Gregor, when he leaves his hound-shaped helmet at this "grave" and it is taken up by others. He also has a hole in his face where he was burned. I'm not sure about the mummer / puppet angle, except that he clearly had contact with his brother's wooden knight. I wonder whether the "unkiss" scene with Sansa somehow provided the Hound with the feminine ingredients for his evolution as a warrior? For him, that scene was not so much an "unkiss" as an "unrape." I believe there is a Clegane sister somewhere in the backstory - maybe she died and provided the requisite feminine element for the Hound to become a perfect warrior. Brienne recalls quite a bit of her training with her family's master-at-arms, Ser Goodwin, during her AFfC POVs. He directed her to help slaughter animals so that she would not flinch from killing when the time came. So she has the butcher element. Her nightmarish experiences with the Bloody Mummers probably fulfills the puppet element; her victimization by Renly's bannermen, putting on a show of pretending that they found her attractive, might also qualify. Brienne suffers a wound to her face when Biter attacks her at the inn at the crossroads. I don't know if this is a required element, but the parallel with the injury to the Hound's face has always intrigued me. (If a face wound is not part of the pattern, certainly some kind of injury is common to most of the "knights" that I suspect are under construction - Bran's loss of the use of his legs would qualify, for instance. Ser Gregor is gravely injured in his combat with Oberyn Martell. Perhaps Arya's temporary blindness would fit the pattern.) I should add that I think Ser Duncan the Tall is also part of the pattern. His cheek is injured in his fight over the diverted water supply. He has a crush on Tanselle Too-Tall, a puppeteer. I'm not sure whether we have seen any butchery in his story, but there are three installments yet to come. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Egg might be the Qyburn/puppeteer character, and that there is a sinister element in his behavior. (I have some thoughts about previous comments in this thread, speculating about Dunk and Egg's roles with regard to Bloodraven taking his sword to the Wall. I'll share those thoughts in a separate post.) It really shows how the same sorts of events and character building events can occur over and over in the narrative and that Bran-Hodor might be indicative of the narrative theme overall. It also runs the risk that even those among Bran's companions who have yet to "suffer injury" might yet face one. Bran has been paralysed, Hodor has been "robbed of his wits", Bloodraven is trapped in a tree, and Coldhands is already dead. That sort of leaves the Reedling siblings who thus far have surprisingly been left unmolested by the trials of life. For Meera, her sweet and loving nature is balanced with an aggressive need to protect those around her. I said in an earlier post somewhere on this thread that her "breaking point" will probably come with the inevitability that she cannot stop Jojen's vision coming true and possibly the fear that all of them are being puppeteered by something they couldn't avoid. Or, if everything really is self-fulfilling, that she couldn't convince Jojen to "fight his fate". With Jojen himself, I think his knowledge that returning to Greywater Watch will result in his death is itself an injury, albeit a psychological one. Having gained the sight as a small child and known how he would die for years, it had become his driving force to live as much as possible in between that -- now he has reached that point where he knows he'll have to face his death, he is longing for it but also depressed. You get this horrid realisation that Jojen's life was never truly his because he never allowed it to belong to him -- he gave it over for this mysterious cause Bloodraven put in his head. Again, your idea of the puppet master comes in again. Quote I've wandered far away from your Bran-Hodor Conundrum, so I'll stop here. This post isn't as coherent as I would like it to be, but I'm having trouble getting my arms around all the possibilities so I figured I'd just write something and see whether it helped to organize my thoughts. Thank you for identifying a really important template in the series. With a little work from better-organized minds than mine, I think it could help us to make some predictions about what will happen in the last books. Aha, don't worry! I understood the post perfectly... and if anything I'm worried my responses are a little all over the place. 14 hours ago, Seams said: It would not surprise me at all if there is a similar backstory to Bloodraven's condemnation and exile. He really did take the black, instead of being executed like Ned Stark. But I have to wonder whether GRRM is setting up a deliberate parallel and whether Bloodraven's connection to the death of Aenys will turn out to be a trumped-up accusation with someone else masterminding a way to get both Aenys and Bloodraven out of the way. This might be a little OT but the Ned/Bloodraven parallel is interesting. It weirdly reminded me Eddard's thoughts here, Quote Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.- Eddard XV, AGoT This idea of broken promises and that even honourable men can go back on their word for their perceived idea of good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I've been reading if not posting and it's time to weigh in on a few things here. Our new friend @Belgarad brings up the possibility of glamoured swords. My favorite ASOIAF authority is very interested in this idea. I think it's possible, but can't imagine why a VS sword would be glamoured to appear to be another. However, a VS sword appearing to be a regular sword is spectacular. Great idea, really. We know VS doesn't shine and I have committed a great deal of time to looking for shining swords and rusty helms as described by Elder Brother. What an interesting idea. I posted a full on topic regarding Bran's subconscious skinchanging abilities specifically for our @kissdbyfire a million years ago. I have always believed that Bran just wanted to comfort Meera and simply lost control of himself for a moment. He seemed dazed and unaware during that scene, particularly after he leaves his own body. Meera's reaction is similarly strange, but she was uncharacteristically sad when this happened, too. Could be a coincidence of emotional factors and it could be Bran is simply stronger than anyone imagines. I tend to believe the latter here as we've already got 2 precedent setting experiences with Bran; the ability to skin change Hodor and to be sensed or heard in the past. I'm not sure if his seeing visions in a fire while losing himself in compassion for Meera is important or not. What is important is that he isn't dialed into the weirnet in a traditional sense at all when this happens. He's just lying there, gazing at a fire. It is not coincidence that Bran is heard by Theon and it has such an impact upon Theon. Past Ned, a spectre, hears Bran through time, but Theon is in the present, along with Arya and Jon (in dreams). Why would Bran reach out specifically to Theon? The love they shared? Bran's prescient knowledge? Could/does he actually know Theon is compromised? (Not diminished--perhaps open?) The Ironborn have plenty of their own magic in legend. They don't actually fit anywhere in the timeline as presented. Could Ramsay's breaking have actually opened some ancient magic in Theon to make him susceptible to Bran's summons? Every quarterback has equally talented receivers. Just a little food for thought. I don't bring this up to in anyway discount @kissdbyfire 's outstanding connection--if anything I think it adds an element to enforce the idea. I've been giving Hodor a great deal of thought since this discussion began. It is Hodor that gave me the idea that Theon may be "open" to receiving Bran. I do loathe the idea that Hodor is simply Bran's beast of burden, without consequence beyond Bran because they are both crucial parts of this knight. Neither character can achieve this knight without the other. I'll say it again @Faera--a wonderful topic. Enjoying every word here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 On 24/02/2018 at 3:07 AM, kissdbyfire said: Sorry, was totally incommunicado since yesterday morning. Best job in the universe, but requires me to live like it's 200 yrs ago. I suppose every song must indeed have its balance! Yeah, can't say off the top of my head if it is the absolutely 'worsest' of all - because there's sooooooooo many out there, lots of competition in the 'worst theory evah!' category. But I absolutely agree it's way, way up there. The thing is, not only it's despicable and OC but there's nothing in the text that really hints at it. I can sympathise. I knew someone who worked at a living history medieval village and they could not break character while on duty. So, he would be off line and unreachable. He loved it, though. Yes, there are some terrible theories out there though I still have a knee-jerk reaching against any idea that involves one of favourite characters harming, violating, raping and or even killing another character they have shown nothing but benevolence and respect for... Kill Me Now! (It wouldn't even make thematic sense.) Quote Exactly that. It's so horrifying... And in Dance you can see Theon is taking [baby] steps in the right direction, but he still uses the fact that the boys were only the miller's sons to justify it to himself. Like, totes okay, the were just some peasants kids. So yeah, for any real and meaningful 'redemption' (don't really like redemption here but can't think of a more adequate word) to happen he has to acknowledge how horrible that was. I remember there was a thread going about a while back asking if anyone thought Theon had become a better person as a result of what Ramsay did to him. At this point, I honestly don't think he is because he still uses status as a justification for his crimes. He's stopped being Reek and become Theon again, complete with certain levels of entitlement. The only times I thought he could finally be learning are in his more spiritual moments, when he hears Bran calling him. So, I completely agree -- Theon must atone for all his crimes and acknowledge that he can't detach himself from it forever by lumping all the blame at Ramsay's door or justifying it by saying they were just some Miller's boys. Quote Safe bet. Or should I say 'safe-ish' since the Martin is a tricksy bird and I usually don't feel 100% sure of almost anything... But it does make sense imo. In my head the Doom and the disaster at HH happened at the same time - despite the 100 yr diff- and/or had the same cause. And volcanoes. But then why didn't a similar disaster happen at WF and DS? Is that even possible? For some type of volcanic/seismic stuff that be goi g on worldwide yet not affect all the volcanoes? Does anyone reading this have any idea about any of this? I'd love to learn a bit. Maybe @bent branch? Yes, I'd love to look into Hardhome/Valyria parallels too. I actually have a friend who thinks that there could very well be a volcanic eruption in the way for Westeros and this is why the Others have become more active, to try and stiffle it with cold. I'll have to ask him about it again because I've probably not done this idea justice... I was also thinking of the Last Hero who went searching for the singers. They used obsidian - or dragonglass - as weapons, right? Well, that's a volcanic rock. Dragonstone probably isn't the only place to find it. This means that there could be areas of Westeros that were once volcanic or might still be active though not for many years. I'm just tossing ideas around, though. Quote I keep going back and forth on this... My most consistent thought on this is, I think there is (was, coz now we have Bran?) only one left, BR. But I don't think it's always been like this. I agree that BR probably approached others too, like Euron for instance. I think options 2 & 3 are possible, I still don't see 1. But mostly I think he needed to attach himself to the tree to prolong his lifespan. To me, it's the difference between being a greenseer and being a Greenseer, the kids who are greenseers by birth (I suspect a few characters already introduced might be this) and getting the training Bran is getting and knowing the process. Sup up that weirwood paste! Then, you have the dreamers who could at least pass on the knowledge. Prolonging his lifespan if he was the literal last Greenseer yet had no one to pass on the knowledge might have made it necessary. That said, if he's the last greenseer, what are the Green Men's powers? Quote The decrease in magic being the reason for the reduced number of greenseers etc makes perfect sense. BR had his eyes in the Starks for a while. And the way he says it makes it perfectly unclear whether he was waiting for Bran specifically or just knew something special was gonna come at some point. Sometimes I hate Martin! (No, I him) With the "rebirth" of magic inn the world, it might be that Bran won't have to hook into a tree to wait for another kid to pass the knowledge onto. He might even get a classroom of kids to teach. Quote Yeah. We know he saw at least Bran and Eddard's births, and he also tells Bran he saw his first steps. I'm not sure he foresaw Bran, but he waiting for someone to be born out of that bloodline. At some point, after having watched who knows how many Starks' early years, he concluded Bran was 'it'. At which point he starts to work on getting him help, decides on the Reeds, and starts sending Jojen the greendreams. ADwD, Bran II "Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. "A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." Does make it sound like he was pegging his bets on a Starkling to take his place. (I have even pondered if he might have had Jon in mind as a backup if he hadn't managed to lure Bran.) Yet with how well everything slots together with Jojen's dreams, it does feel like he had his eyes mostly on Bran as his ideal student. Quote I don't wanna think about it too much, b/c squeal doesn't even begin to cover it! You aren't Bloodraven's #1 groupie for something. Quote People are strange. Or maybe we are strange? Whatever. No. Creepy. Paste. Remember I said there are [very] few things I feel sure about? Well, this is one of those very few. Thanks. I needed that. Quote Hmm. How, though? How would they preserve old blood? Or maybe it's mixed with the sap straight away and the sap keeps it from going bad? Sounds disgusting! Yeah, not impossible at all. Now this is very much what I think. Like LSD to open the mind, increase awareness, give insight, etc etc. Well, it seems to me that blood is the source of magic and life. The weirwoods are able to preserve the knowledge and memories of people, it seems that like the blood could be preserved by the tree. Aha, I'm not explaining it very well. But yes, it is disgusting but I wouldn't be surprised if the sap is somehow able to preserve the blood and that is part of the magic that made the singers choose to use them as afterlife storage systems/CCTV cameras. Quote I think Bran lives. And while I don't think we'll get 'the one true hero who saves the world' in this story, I think Bran is the closest to that we'll see. I think he will go to Winterfell at some point. He is the Prince of Winterfell, I don't see that not happening. But will he stay there? No idea. Tend to think not, but zero certainty here. The IoF would be so awesome, and it would be the perfect way to introduce the IoF to the readers. I hope that's the plan, that we will get to see the IoF, and with Bran as the PoV. In my idealised version of the end, I always thought it'd be nice if Bran went to the Isle of Faces. I think Meera will end up there at some point as a "follow in dad's footsteps" so it's possible she ends dragging Bran along if he leaves that cave. I see the final confrontation happening in the Riverlands so it makes for magic Bran to be at IoF for the end. By ADoS, I think it'd be nice if he's set up there permanently, training the next generation of greenseers. Quote It is a good read, and lots of thought-provoking ideas. Yes, while I'm sceptical it is true it is totally my headcanon until further notice or until proven false. As I said, while I am sceptical that Jenny was necessary a Reed, I think it would be cool if she was a crannogman and her children married into the Reeds, one of them being Howland's mother or grandmother. He has a surnameless wife, why not mother or grandmother? Quote Yeah, I don't see .Jon & Meera. "Val is Jon's true queen"' Yes, honestly I'm not entirely sure how Jon and Meera would work. Plus, even though I know Bran is, like, 10 right now and not getting the girl anytime soon... but that would be Jon totally breaking the sacred bro-code. Aha, so I take it you see Jon/Val being end game over Jon/Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 21 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I posted a full on topic regarding Bran's subconscious skinchanging abilities specifically for our @kissdbyfire a million years ago. I have always believed that Bran just wanted to comfort Meera and simply lost control of himself for a moment. He seemed dazed and unaware during that scene, particularly after he leaves his own body. Meera's reaction is similarly strange, but she was uncharacteristically sad when this happened, too. Could be a coincidence of emotional factors and it could be Bran is simply stronger than anyone imagines. I tend to believe the latter here as we've already got 2 precedent setting experiences with Bran; the ability to skin change Hodor and to be sensed or heard in the past. I'm not sure if his seeing visions in a fire while losing himself in compassion for Meera is important or not. What is important is that he isn't dialed into the weirnet in a traditional sense at all when this happens. He's just lying there, gazing at a fire. Was that the one about Bran "buzzing" Meera? I might have read that one back when I was a lurker. The way I read it, Bran was in process of slipping his skin but it never occurred to me that he might have been slipping into her rather than Hodor. (God, that is a weird sentence and really highlights what @Seams was saying about skin-changing essentially being like a metaphor for sex and having babies... ) I saw it as Bran thinking about skin-changing Hodor in order to embrace Meera, so his spirit began to reach but he rethought it and was mid-stream as it were, hence why he was dazed. As for why he realised it was "strange", well, he likes her and perhaps the idea of holding her (or using Hodor to hold her) was what made him feel weird. Seeing her so upset made him sad and she probably hated that. So, she bolted from the fire because she needed to cry and didn't want anyone to see her do it. It's so easy to forget Meera isn't much more than a child herself. Despite being an adult by Westerosi standards, she's only 16. Yet, she is still the caregiver and "responsible" adult for the group and she knows that. I mean, think about it, she opened up about how she felt regarding Jojen, something she'd never done before. Maybe she can make friends with Leaf? 22 hours ago, Curled Finger said: It is not coincidence that Bran is heard by Theon and it has such an impact upon Theon. Past Ned, a spectre, hears Bran through time, but Theon is in the present, along with Arya and Jon (in dreams). Why would Bran reach out specifically to Theon? The love they shared? Bran's prescient knowledge? Could/does he actually know Theon is compromised? (Not diminished--perhaps open?) The Ironborn have plenty of their own magic in legend. They don't actually fit anywhere in the timeline as presented. Could Ramsay's breaking have actually opened some ancient magic in Theon to make him susceptible to Bran's summons? Every quarterback has equally talented receivers. Just a little food for thought. I don't bring this up to in anyway discount @kissdbyfire 's outstanding connection--if anything I think it adds an element to enforce the idea. I've been giving Hodor a great deal of thought since this discussion began. It is Hodor that gave me the idea that Theon may be "open" to receiving Bran. I do loathe the idea that Hodor is simply Bran's beast of burden, without consequence beyond Bran because they are both crucial parts of this knight. Neither character can achieve this knight without the other. Think about it - what do we know about the people the Three-Eyed-Crow called upon? Both suffered some sort of trauma or ailment. Bran broke his back and lost the use of his legs. Jojen was a small child dying from greywater fever. There's a possibility that at least Euron Greyjoy got a visit. Stark and Reed we know have a link to magic and I really do think the Greyjoys might have a bit of that in them as well. Just as the 3EC finds people who are weak or sick easy to connect with, perhaps Bran likewise finds it easier to slip into the minds of people who suffered a similar trauma. Hodor's disability could well have been caused by a trauma too. The Bran-Theon/Braneon "fusion" will never make a knight at all, let alone a perfect one, since Theon's body is very broken. With them, it's more about being crafty or tricksters. Each human Bran might manage to skin change might fulfill a different "need" or aspect of his character to make up for what he has lost... or as a means to extend his reach as far as possible. Theon might be more "open" because he can better express to Bran while they are "sharing space" what he thinks and feels. With Hodor, Bran can only sense it whereas with Theon they might even be able to communicate with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Faera said: Was that the one about Bran "buzzing" Meera? I might have read that one back when I was a lurker. The way I read it, Bran was in process of slipping his skin but it never occurred to me that he might have been slipping into her rather than Hodor. (God, that is a weird sentence and really highlights what @Seams was saying about skin-changing essentially being like a metaphor for sex and having babies... ) I saw it as Bran thinking about skin-changing Hodor in order to embrace Meera, so his spirit began to reach but he rethought it and was mid-stream as it were, hence why he was dazed. As for why he realised it was "strange", well, he likes her and perhaps the idea of holding her (or using Hodor to hold her) was what made him feel weird. Seeing her so upset made him sad and she probably hated that. So, she bolted from the fire because she needed to cry and didn't want anyone to see her do it. It's so easy to forget Meera isn't much more than a child herself. Despite being an adult by Westerosi standards, she's only 16. Yet, she is still the caregiver and "responsible" adult for the group and she knows that. I mean, think about it, she opened up about how she felt regarding Jojen, something she'd never done before. Maybe she can make friends with Leaf? Think about it - what do we know about the people the Three-Eyed-Crow called upon? Both suffered some sort of trauma or ailment. Bran broke his back and lost the use of his legs. Jojen was a small child dying from greywater fever. There's a possibility that at least Euron Greyjoy got a visit. Stark and Reed we know have a link to magic and I really do think the Greyjoys might have a bit of that in them as well. Just as the 3EC finds people who are weak or sick easy to connect with, perhaps Bran likewise finds it easier to slip into the minds of people who suffered a similar trauma. Hodor's disability could well have been caused by a trauma too. The Bran-Theon/Braneon "fusion" will never make a knight at all, let alone a perfect one, since Theon's body is very broken. With them, it's more about being crafty or tricksters. Each human Bran might manage to skin change might fulfill a different "need" or aspect of his character to make up for what he has lost... or as a means to extend his reach as far as possible. Theon might be more "open" because he can better express to Bran while they are "sharing space" what he thinks and feels. With Hodor, Bran can only sense it whereas with Theon they might even be able to communicate with each other. Yes that was the one. Just the way I read it from the 1st. I can see where others get their ideas about the scene, but that's how I took it. Bran's powers are maybe stronger than him at this point. I wasn't going with Bran/Theon being a great knight--that was just more to Bran/Hodor, but since you bring it up it may be a good time to illuminate that killing of the Ironborn captain at Moat Cailyn. Our author goes to great lengths to show us Theon can wield a longsword effectively. It's far from time to count Theon out. Legendary hero isn't where I mean to go with Theon. I think he would make a really interesting host for Bran. As you and @kissdbyfire have discussed quite well, Theon has a lot of unpacking to do. For all he was, is and has the potential to be--it may be no more than fully own his actions as both Stark and Greyjoy. Perhaps the best we can hope for is a good death--but Bran's only had 3 real change experiences unless the trees count, then 4--the birds, Summer and Hodor. Seems to me he's got at least 2 more inhabitations coming, maybe more. What or who might be a good vehicle for Bran to live out a 2nd life in if our drama unfolds as HBO's has? Sorry, I had to go there--I can't think of many things Theon can do to redeem himself, but that may satisfy me. Either way it's clear Bran has very important things to do. Save the world for example. His current company is so important to his journey--their journey. Though I'm not hopeful Jojen or Bloodraven will survive I do have hope that Meera and Hodor may. In Bran's disability he requires help to get around, even dress. It would be shortsighted to anticipate no further aides to Bran and his quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 23 hours ago, Faera said: I can sympathise. I knew someone who worked at a living history medieval village and they could not break character while on duty. So, he would be off line and unreachable. He loved it, though. Yes, there are some terrible theories out there though I still have a knee-jerk reaching against any idea that involves one of favourite characters harming, violating, raping and or even killing another character they have shown nothing but benevolence and respect for... Kill Me Now! (It wouldn't even make thematic sense.) Ditto! And honestly, I don't see it... and it's not just wishful thinking - I hope! I even went back and read the passage a couple of times after reading a post by our friend @Curled Finger a bit further down. And I really don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's nothing in there that makes me think any of this happened. Quote I remember there was a thread going about a while back asking if anyone thought Theon had become a better person as a result of what Ramsay did to him. At this point, I honestly don't think he is because he still uses status as a justification for his crimes. He's stopped being Reek and become Theon again, complete with certain levels of entitlement. The only times I thought he could finally be learning are in his more spiritual moments, when he hears Bran calling him. So, I completely agree -- Theon must atone for all his crimes and acknowledge that he can't detach himself from it forever by lumping all the blame at Ramsay's door or justifying it by saying they were just some Miller's boys. (Accidentally deleted the two paragraphs below and copied them back, so formatting may be a bit wonky) "Yes, I'd love to look into Hardhome/Valyria parallels too. I actually have a friend who thinks that there could very well be a volcanic eruption in the way for Westeros and this is why the Others have become more active, to try and stiffle it with cold. I'll have to ask him about it again because I've probably not done this idea justice... I was also thinking of the Last Hero who went searching for the singers. They used obsidian - or dragonglass - as weapons, right? Well, that's a volcanic rock. Dragonstone probably isn't the only place to find it. This means that there could be areas of Westeros that were once volcanic or might still be active though not for many years. I'm just tossing ideas around, though." Please. get the details from your friend, it sounds interesting! To the bold, Winterfell's hot springs always make me think dormant/extinct volcano, if that's the correct term. Maybe that's what is hidden down in the crypts, a cache of obsidian. Quote To me, it's the difference between being a greenseer and being a Greenseer, the kids who are greenseers by birth (I suspect a few characters already introduced might be this) and getting the training Bran is getting and knowing the process. Sup up that weirwood paste! Then, you have the dreamers who could at least pass on the knowledge. I'm not sure what you mean here... BR tells Bran it's his blood that makes him a greenseer. We also learn that one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger, and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer. That's to say greenseers are born w/ the gift, and it's not something you can learn/train to become. But I'm not sure that's what you meant. Quote Prolonging his lifespan if he was the literal last Greenseer yet had no one to pass on the knowledge might have made it necessary. That's exactly what I think was the case here... hopefully we'll learn more soon-ish! Quote That said, if he's the last greenseer, what are the Green Men's powers? With the "rebirth" of magic inn the world, it might be that Bran won't have to hook into a tree to wait for another kid to pass the knowledge onto. He might even get a classroom of kids to teach. We've been given so little on the Green Men! We know the sacred order of GM was formed when the Pact was signed on the IoF. We are also told they have "strange magic powers". It's safe to say all FM descendants at least know about the IoF and the GM. They ride elks, are green or have green hair, and that's about it. Maybe if there is a magical hierarchy, they're one tier above the greenseers? Maybe they are the ones who decide who gets what gifts? I really want to learn more about them. And love the idea of a classroom full of skinchangers and greenseers! Quote Does make it sound like he was pegging his bets on a Starkling to take his place. (I have even pondered if he might have had Jon in mind as a backup if he hadn't managed to lure Bran.) Yet with how well everything slots together with Jojen's dreams, it does feel like he had his eyes mostly on Bran as his ideal student. ------------------------------------------- (for whatever reason can't break up your post anymore, so let's try it like this) I definitely think he was expecting someone special to be born out of that bloodline. I don't think he knew it would be Bran specifically (from the moment Bran was born), but at some point he decided it was Bran. And then he puts things in motion by sending Jojen the greendreams, the direwolf pups, etc. ----------- Well, it seems to me that blood is the source of magic and life. The weirwoods are able to preserve the knowledge and memories of people, it seems that like the blood could be preserved by the tree. Aha, I'm not explaining it very well. But yes, it is disgusting but I wouldn't be surprised if the sap is somehow able to preserve the blood and that is part of the magic that made the singers choose to use them as afterlife storage systems/CCTV cameras. -------------- No, you explained it perfectly, I think it makes sense! ------------ In my idealised version of the end, I always thought it'd be nice if Bran went to the Isle of Faces. I think Meera will end up there at some point as a "follow in dad's footsteps" so it's possible she ends dragging Bran along if he leaves that cave. I see the final confrontation happening in the Riverlands so it makes for magic Bran to be at IoF for the end. By ADoS, I think it'd be nice if he's set up there permanently, training the next generation of greenseers. ------- I don't think Bran would need to be dragged to the IoF! But yeah, lots of interesting possibilities! I like it. ---------- Yes, while I'm sceptical it is true it is totally my headcanon until further notice or until proven false. As I said, while I am sceptical that Jenny was necessary a Reed, I think it would be cool if she was a crannogman and her children married into the Reeds, one of them being Howland's mother or grandmother. He has a surnameless wife, why not mother or grandmother? --------- ---------- Yes, honestly I'm not entirely sure how Jon and Meera would work. ---------- I don't either. ------ Plus, even though I know Bran is, like, 10 right now and not getting the girl anytime soon... but that would be Jon totally breaking the sacred bro-code. ------- Absolutely! ---------- Aha, so I take it you see Jon/Val being end game over Jon/Dany? There are so many ships I simply don't understand, and Jon + Dany is one of them! The author spends an awful lot of time showing us what type of men Dany's into, and what type of women Jon's into. And Dany wouldn't fancy Jon anymore than Jon would fancy Dany. The only explanation for them to pair up would be as a political move yadda yadda yadda, and I don't see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 BTW typing on my phone so sorry for any mistakes... On 25/02/2018 at 9:14 PM, Curled Finger said: Yes that was the one. Just the way I read it from the 1st. I can see where others get their ideas about the scene, but that's how I took it. Bran's powers are maybe stronger than him at this point. I get that. I can certainly see how one could interpret that scene as an almost-slip (to parallel the almost-kiss, aha!) Truth is, while I still stand by my interpretation that she needed to cry and didn’t want to do it in front of Bran, the idea of him almost slipping into her skin (God, is there any way to make that not sound creepy?) is interesting. The issue for me is I wonder what the point would be? If it was to “demonstrate” Bran’s power - wouldn’t GRRM have made it clearer that is what was happening? Another way to phrase the question is - how would a Bran-Meera work? The idea conflicts with our thoughts on the need for mental “openness” through illness or damage of the host. I guess we could argue her sadness made her more “open” but the key thing is that Bran was sad, too. As I said in the OP, Bran seems to struggle to hold a skin when he feels frightened or sad. I also wonder why it would be established if it wasn’t leading to something - and don’t see how these two characters sharing skin would work. Meera simply doesn’t need Bran to function mentally or physically. If anything, his presence would be a detriment to them as so much of Meera’s powers root from her swiftness and poise. The only other reason I could see it being introduced is to either 1. Help Meera work out that Bran is actively skin changing humans or 2. If Bran “buzzing” Meera will be a way to highlight either a lack of control over his powers or that other people might accidentally be pulling him towards them (as with Bran-Hodor outside BR’s cave). IDK, what were your thoughts? Quote I wasn't going with Bran/Theon being a great knight--that was just more to Bran/Hodor, but since you bring it up it may be a good time to illuminate that killing of the Ironborn captain at Moat Cailyn. Our author goes to great lengths to show us Theon can wield a longsword effectively. It's far from time to count Theon out. Legendary hero isn't where I mean to go with Theon. I think he would make a really interesting host for Bran. As you and @kissdbyfire have discussed quite well, Theon has a lot of unpacking to do. For all he was, is and has the potential to be--it may be no more than fully own his actions as both Stark and Greyjoy. Perhaps the best we can hope for is a good death--but Bran's only had 3 real change experiences unless the trees count, then 4--the birds, Summer and Hodor. Seems to me he's got at least 2 more inhabitations coming, maybe more. Another poster on the ‘Will Bran Walk again’ thread, @Benedict Oathkeeper, suggested Jaime. That’d be interesting. Quote What or who might be a good vehicle for Bran to live out a 2nd life in if our drama unfolds as HBO's has? Sorry, I had to go there-- We don’t talk about it in this house aha! But I think the point is that he’d either go into Summer or the trees. Though if Varamyr’s anything to go by, a skin changer can pick if they have more than one skin. He had multiple wolves to choose from and also tried to take Thistle. Spoiler Seriously, I doubt HBO has remotely covered Bran’s plot. It seems to have been heavily rushed, nipped, tucked and cut. Sloppily, I might add. Quote I can't think of many things Theon can do to redeem himself, but that may satisfy me. Either way it's clear Bran has very important things to do. Save the world for example. His current company is so important to his journey--their journey. Theon’s redemption can only come with accepting his crimes and working to atone for them. Helping take down Roose and Ramsay would work towards that if he does become a vassal for Bran. Quote Though I'm not hopeful Jojen or Bloodraven will survive I do have hope that Meera and Hodor may. In Bran's disability he requires help to get around, even dress. It would be shortsighted to anticipate no further aides to Bran and his quest. Well... I think BR is close to death anyway, Jojen has openly told us he’s dying and seems destined to do so at Greywater now, and Hodor... sorry but I feel will absolutely die, likely as a result of the “Brandon” knight. Spoiler Unfortunately I think “Hold the door” is intrinsically tied to Hodor’s death in the books, too. It makes sense. As I said in my DS post, I suspect the end of Bran-Hodor will probably result in Hodor’s becoming mortally wounded though likely killed. I only really see Meera surviving and I hope she does. Summer might as well. Spoiler No CGI budget needed in the books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 11 hours ago, Faera said: BTW typing on my phone so sorry for any mistakes... I get that. I can certainly see how one could interpret that scene as an almost-slip (to parallel the almost-kiss, aha!) Truth is, while I still stand by my interpretation that she needed to cry and didn’t want to do it in front of Bran, the idea of him almost slipping into her skin (God, is there any way to make that not sound creepy?) is interesting. The issue for me is I wonder what the point would be? If it was to “demonstrate” Bran’s power - wouldn’t GRRM have made it clearer that is what was happening? Another way to phrase the question is - how would a Bran-Meera work? The idea conflicts with our thoughts on the need for mental “openness” through illness or damage of the host. I guess we could argue her sadness made her more “open” but the key thing is that Bran was sad, too. As I said in the OP, Bran seems to struggle to hold a skin when he feels frightened or sad. I also wonder why it would be established if it wasn’t leading to something - and don’t see how these two characters sharing skin would work. Meera simply doesn’t need Bran to function mentally or physically. If anything, his presence would be a detriment to them as so much of Meera’s powers root from her swiftness and poise. The only other reason I could see it being introduced is to either 1. Help Meera work out that Bran is actively skin changing humans or 2. If Bran “buzzing” Meera will be a way to highlight either a lack of control over his powers or that other people might accidentally be pulling him towards them (as with Bran-Hodor outside BR’s cave). IDK, what were your thoughts? Another poster on the ‘Will Bran Walk again’ thread, @Benedict Oathkeeper, suggested Jaime. That’d be interesting. We don’t talk about it in this house aha! But I think the point is that he’d either go into Summer or the trees. Though if Varamyr’s anything to go by, a skin changer can pick if they have more than one skin. He had multiple wolves to choose from and also tried to take Thistle. Hide contents Seriously, I doubt HBO has remotely covered Bran’s plot. It seems to have been heavily rushed, nipped, tucked and cut. Sloppily, I might add. Theon’s redemption can only come with accepting his crimes and working to atone for them. Helping take down Roose and Ramsay would work towards that if he does become a vassal for Bran. Well... I think BR is close to death anyway, Jojen has openly told us he’s dying and seems destined to do so at Greywater now, and Hodor... sorry but I feel will absolutely die, likely as a result of the “Brandon” knight. Hide contents Unfortunately I think “Hold the door” is intrinsically tied to Hodor’s death in the books, too. It makes sense. As I said in my DS post, I suspect the end of Bran-Hodor will probably result in Hodor’s becoming mortally wounded though likely killed. I only really see Meera surviving and I hope she does. Summer might as well. Hide contents No CGI budget needed in the books! Bah, I just think it shows Bran's lack of control really. I can't imagine what it could possibly do for Meera. Bloodraven tells Bran he cannot do things he's actually done. I thought Ramsay was about the worst dirty dog villain until I got a whiff of Euron now I wonder if there isn't someone more powerful than Bloodraven who really can teach Bran how to get a handle on himself. I suspect not, but there is no penalty for hoping. At any rate he is just a little guy and he has no idea what he's capable of. I agree with everything you say about Theon and believe he can be made to be redeemed. I have a job for him, but that's an entirely different subject. I'm still curious as to why Bran reaches out to Theon. Any thoughts? All we get out of the exchange so far is Theon believing the old gods know his name. What could Bran possibly want with him? Jamie's a really interesting thought and once Bran comes into his full power he may well be able to get into anyone's skin. We just don't know what he can really do yet. If Jojen is to die at home then we've still got some book left with the whole team. If Jojen isn't lying or misinterpreting his dreams. Meera and Jojen are good for Bran and Hodor and Summer. I'd like to see them all make it back home some day. But we all know the minute we get to liking a character that bad old writer will have their head lopped off or shoot them full of arrows. Until we begin to lose them I'm rooting for them with all I've got for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: And honestly, I don't see it... and it's not just wishful thinking - I hope! I even went back and read the passage a couple of times after reading a post by our friend @Curled Finger a bit further down. And I really don't see it. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's nothing in there that makes me think any of this happened. I'm not against the idea that Bran might accidentally have "reached" Meera or, as @Curled Finger in the relevant thread they started, "buzzed" her. (I really do like that term), per se. It could be interesting if it is leading to something regarding Bran's powers - such as that he is unable to control them or someone might tug him into them accidentally. It's like... emphatic abilities, similar to how it seems Hodor drew Bran into him outside BR's cave. I guess? Sorry, I haven't completely developed the idea but I really do want to try and write more about the dynamic between the team and a part of that is re-reading those key final chapters of ADwD all over again. While I generally agree that Meera's bolt from the campfire was simply to shed her tears in peace, the notion that Bran might have slipped his skin and "touched" her somehow isn't a fringe theory so it is worth investigating further. ( @Curled Finger - do you mind linking us to your thread? I think it would be nice since it is in keeping with Bran's powers) But that theory that Bran will skin-change Hodor in order to, well, force himself on her is just bizarre. The slightly "lighter" version of that theory is that he will go through with his thoughts on hugging her and she will panic (I don't see why, she'd only see it as Hodor being nice) or that he'll try to kiss her (Bran is 10 and pretty introverted about his feelings for her - I don't think he'd have the gumption to kiss her). Almost all of them end up with Meera getting killed, hurt or violated and I hate that. It turns Meera into a victim for no other reason than they want Bran to abuse this power he has over Hodor. It takes away from Meera's character for no reason than shock value. It undermines the struggle between Bran-Hodor as something just between them. 'No one must ever know', Bran said. This is between the gentle giant and the wizard-boy. On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: Please. get the details from your friend, it sounds interesting! To the bold, Winterfell's hot springs always make me think dormant/extinct volcano, if that's the correct term. Maybe that's what is hidden down in the crypts, a cache of obsidian Well, he and I were talking about the five inches of snow we've had where I live... so, I'll try and steer the conversation back to asoiaf and report back. AGH! How could I have forgotten about Winterfell's hotsprings?! On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: I'm not sure what you mean here... BR tells Bran it's his blood that makes him a greenseer. We also learn that one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger, and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer. That's to say greenseers are born w/ the gift, and it's not something you can learn/train to become. But I'm not sure that's what you meant. Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I mean is that it is one thing to be born a greenseer, it is another to actually know how to use those powers (i.e. wedding the trees, learning how to use them etc.) These are things that Bran would probably not have innately known how to do - Brynden taught him that. So, it is one thing to be a greenseer it is another thing to be (The Last) Greenseer, as in a greenseer who knows all the tricks in the playbook as handed down by generations of greenseers. On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: We've been given so little on the Green Men! We know the sacred order of GM was formed when the Pact was signed on the IoF. We are also told they have "strange magic powers". It's safe to say all FM descendants at least know about the IoF and the GM. They ride elks, are green or have green hair, and that's about it. Maybe if there is a magical hierarchy, they're one tier above the greenseers? Maybe they are the ones who decide who gets what gifts? I really want to learn more about them. I really, really hope Bran does get to go there because I want to know what their deal is. Or at the very least, get Howland Reed out here! He can tell us what they do! On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: And love the idea of a classroom full of skinchangers and greenseers! Quote With magic back in the world, once Bran becomes the new "Last Greenseer" he can pass on all that arcane knowledge to a new generation of magically inclined children. On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: And then he puts things in motion by sending Jojen the greendreams, the direwolf pups, etc. It's also helped by the fact Jojen's dream of the chained winged-wolf is a bit subjective. I have seen loads of arguments for how any of the Stark children - including Jon - could have matched that description. On 26/02/2018 at 1:17 PM, kissdbyfire said: There are so many ships I simply don't understand, and Jon + Dany is one of them! The author spends an awful lot of time showing us what type of men Dany's into, and what type of women Jon's into. And Dany wouldn't fancy Jon anymore than Jon would fancy Dany. The only explanation for them to pair up would be as a political move yadda yadda yadda, and I don't see that happening. One thing I will grant the Jon/Meera idea is that she is at least closer to the sort of woman Jon would be interested into based on what we know from his thoughts he's into. I don't even see how Jon/Dany would happen as a political move... Scratch that, maybe I can? Earlier I answered my own question by speculating that if Jon somehow is in command of the North as King or Regent for Rickon or something, he might be one or even the only person Dany could ally with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted February 28, 2018 Author Share Posted February 28, 2018 10 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Bah, I just think it shows Bran's lack of control really. I can't imagine what it could possibly do for Meera. Bloodraven tells Bran he cannot do things he's actually done. I thought Ramsay was about the worst dirty dog villain until I got a whiff of Euron now I wonder if there isn't someone more powerful than Bloodraven who really can teach Bran how to get a handle on himself. I suspect not, but there is no penalty for hoping. At any rate he is just a little guy and he has no idea what he's capable of. Well, that's fine, too. Ultimately, I'm not opposed to the idea that Bran just might be buzzing all over the place because he can't reign himself inn and needs help. Given that I think Bloodraven is morally ambiguous at best, I also don't trust his pragmatic approach in teaching Bran to benefit a growing boy. I mean he did lure three children, a child-man and their little doggy too into the Others' backgarden. I don't think he's bad but I suspect eventually he and Bran might have... artistic differences, shall we say. Even if Bran doesn't see it I suspect Meera will. Plus, there is that thing about the underground river that keeps coming back to haunt me... 10 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I agree with everything you say about Theon and believe he can be made to be redeemed. I have a job for him, but that's an entirely different subject. I'm still curious as to why Bran reaches out to Theon. Any thoughts? All we get out of the exchange so far is Theon believing the old gods know his name. What could Bran possibly want with him? Jamie's a really interesting thought and once Bran comes into his full power he may well be able to get into anyone's skin. We just don't know what he can really do yet. I don't necessarily think he did. I'm on a tablet right now so it's a little fiddly to find the quote... but I always thought it might have been by chance Bran saw Theon, and then actively started teaching out to him. We know Bran has been spying on Winterfell throughout time through its weirwood, so it might be that after Theon began to come before the tree he started talking to him because he is a familiar face. Plus, there's a real chance that Bran and BE saw the wedding of Ramsay and Fake Arya. So, he probably has had time to access the situation. It is also telling that a lot of the meetings Theon had with the spearwives was in the godswood before the Gods i.e. in Bran's sight and hearing. Very early on Meera identified that the sack of Winterfell had not been committed by Theon and The Ironborn, so perhaps Bran also sees a proactive way of avenging his "death" by using Theon to undo the Boltons? 10 hours ago, Curled Finger said: If Jojen is to die at home then we've still got some book left with the whole team. If Jojen isn't lying or misinterpreting his dreams. Meera and Jojen are good for Bran and Hodor and Summer. I'd like to see them all make it back home some day. But we all know the minute we get to liking a character that bad old writer will have their head lopped off or shoot them full of arrows. Until we begin to lose them I'm rooting for them with all I've got for them. I just really want Bran to get to see Greywater and the Isle of Faces. It would be interesting to know how Jojen came to the conclusion of his death. A part of me even wonders if the 3EC/Brynden told him when his own third eye was opened and he was gifted with green dreams. You can almost imagine the crow pecking at him when he was sick with the fever and saying, "This is not the day you die." He says it like a mantra sometimes that I wonder if it was a 3EC quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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