Some Questions About Knight of the Laughing Tree

[MTGAP]

Okay, I just did a reread of the Knight of the Laughing Tree part, and basically understood it. I've noticed that it's discussed in many places, but there's no single thread with all the Knight of the Laughing Tree stuff. So here are my questions:

1. More of a comment, but I believe the KotLT is Lyanna Stark.

2. Of the wolf pups, (wild one, shy one, she-wolf, young one) who is who? The she-wolf is Lyanna and the wild one is Brandon, but what about the other two?

3. Was the crannogman who was getting picked on Howland Reed? This makes sense as his kids are the only ones who know the story.

[Ran]

2) Wild one would be Brandon, quiet one would be Eddard, young one would be Benjen.

3) Yes.

[Skid]

1) If you worked that out yourself, I'm impressed. It's a popular theory that obviously connects to R+L=J. I remember big threads about it, but it might be in the old boards. anyhow it's quite well founded, but of course only a theory at this point.

[MTGAP]

1) If you worked that out yourself, I'm impressed. It's a popular theory that obviously connects to R+L=J. I remember big threads about it, but it might be in the old boards. anyhow it's quite well founded, but of course only a theory at this point.

No I didn't think of it on my own. I've noticed it mentioned here and there that Lyanna was the KotLT, and I had no idea what they were talking about. But after reading that chapter, I just thought, "Well of course it's Lyanna, that's obvious." Which actually brings up another question: who taught Lyanna to fight: her brothers, Rhaegar, or both?

Is it grammatically correct to use two colons?

How do I look at the old threads?

[SFDanny]

Which actually brings up another question: who taught Lyanna to fight: her brothers, Rhaegar, or both?

Perhaps both, but certainly she has training before she meets Rhaegar.

Is it grammatically correct to use two colons?

No, but who cares? You made your point.

[MTGAP]

I just read the "Robert's Jousting" forum and apparently the Queen of Love and Beauty was a Whent, not a Hightower as I thought. Who was she?

[Benjen]

One of the more interesting bits I got out of the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree was that King Aerys asked Rhaegar to find out who the mystery knight was, and said that KotLT was no friend to the crown.

Any investigation of the mystery knight would have lead to the Starks......the squires could have been made to tell their knights and Rhaegar why the ransom was a demand for their chastisement. If so they would have learned about the cranogman that the squires acosted, and who defended him.

By all accounts Rhaegar was a capable jouster, but it wasn't his passion. Why did he become so determined to win that tourney, then?

It all ties together there somewhere.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Aerys' suspicion about the Knight of the Laughing Tree being no friend of his is very interesting; A number of Targaryens have been known to have prophetic dreams and if it was Lyanna he may have forseen that she would cause the downfall of his House. Of course sending Rhaegar to find her then ends up directly causing the doom he would have hoped to avoid, and would doubtless have been amusing to Gorghan of Old Ghis.

[valar readmartin]

Is it grammatically correct to use two colons?

Only if you have a lot of shit to say.

[crocobar]

Only if you have a lot of shit to say.

beautiful... I couldn't've said it better myself...

[dragonslayer]

I'm I missing something here?

Why is KotLT as Lysanna theory so popular, as I recall the only real info we get on that is Meera's tale to Bran and from that it seems pretty clear it isn't Lysanna.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Why is KotLT as Lysanna theory so popular, as I recall the only real info we get on that is Meera's tale to Bran and from that it seems pretty clear it isn't Lysanna.

Can you elaborate on why it's so clear to you that it isn't Lyanna?

[niamh]

I would imagine Brandon taught Lyanna. Ned's a bit too old-fashioned for this sort of carry-on I'd say.

[back_packn]

Can you elaborate on why it's so clear to you that it isn't Lyanna?

Yes please. I'm curious as well.

[Sarella]

dragonslayer, the Lyanna=KOTLT theory is so popular because:

1) Lyanna clearly has guts and fighting skills as she took down three squires with a tourney sword to protect Howland.

2) Howland had never ridden a horse at the time of this story. Jaime says that jousting is for the most part good horsemanship. When Harwin compliments Arya's riding he says that Lyanna was also an excellent horse rider.

3) Ned, when organizing "dancing" lessons for Arya, reflects that she reminds him of Lyanna.

4) If it was Howland why didn't he reveal himself after unhorsing the three knights?

5) Aerys sends Rhaegar out to hunt down the KOTLT. Would Rhaegar fail? As Benjen said, the squires would lead him straight to Howland and Lyanna. Link this with the feast at which Rhaegar sang a song that made Lyanna cry, and with Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB, and it seems likely that Rhaegar found tKotLT/Lyanna and something happened between them.

[Caligula_K]

dragonslayer, the Lyanna=KOTLT theory is so popular because:

1) Lyanna clearly has guts and fighting skills as she took down three squires with a tourney sword to protect Howland.

2) Howland had never ridden a horse at the time of this story. Jaime says that jousting is for the most part good horsemanship. When Harwin compliments Arya's riding he says that Lyanna was also an excellent horse rider.

3) Ned, when organizing "dancing" lessons for Arya, reflects that she reminds him of Lyanna.

4) If it was Howland why didn't he reveal himself after unhorsing the three knights?

5) Aerys sends Rhaegar out to hunt down the KOTLT. Would Rhaegar fail? As Benjen said, the squires would lead him straight to Howland and Lyanna. Link this with the feast at which Rhaegar sang a song that made Lyanna cry, and with Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB, and it seems likely that Rhaegar found tKotLT/Lyanna and something happened between them.

Hence also why Jojen repeatedly asks Bran if he was sure that Ned hadn't told him the story- its clearly of some significance, in a way that it wouldn't be if Howland Reed was the knight and that was that.

[Stratonice]

And point #4 applies to all the male Starks present at the tourney as well (even if most of them are unlikely for other reasons as well).

[Mind's Agita]

It seems that dragonslayer won’t defend his view (make me reg), so I do it. Let’s counter why it isn’t L.

Your arg:

1)L has guts & fighting skill because she defeats the squires.

they snatched away his spear and knocked him to the ground … showed him done every time he try to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground

[\Quote]

The squire doesn’t seem to be armed.

[Ran]

Agita,

Take a big horse, a big armor, put it on someone of normal stature (the armor not the horse) and here is your short knight. A simple optic trick.

People in Westeros are familiar with what a normal sized person in armor will look like on a charger. If they say a knight is short, they mean a knight is short, not a normal person on a big horse. It's stretching to argue it's an optical trick.

And "ill-fitting" armor doesn't actually mean "big armor". It just means armor that's not really meant to be put together as it is. Doubtless it's also a bit large, but most armor is made for normal-sized people, not giants, so it's very unlikely indeed that the KolT is wearing bits and pieces of armor of guys 6'6"+ tall.

1)A tourney lance, in order to get a better balance, is heavier than a normal one. A lance of 4m would weight 8kg, but a lance length is between 4m and 6m and so weight between 8kg and 12kg.

Well, first, women can joust with jousting lances, and do so today in reenactment groups. Further, lances are not generally 6 meters in length in Westeros -- more like 3.6 meters (12 feet) according to actual descriptions in the books. We recently went over what the weight of an 8 foot fighting spear (for use on foot) and I believe we came out with a weight of about 2.5 kilos. I'd suppose at most the kind of light jousting lance used in Westeros -- made to break rather than cause serious injury, as noted in AGoT (""These are tourney lances... They make them to splinter on impact, so no one is hurt."") - would not be more than 4 or perhaps 5 kilos (oh, here is a page that suggests 4.5 kg as a lower bound for a 12 foot lance -- presumably a war lance, in this case, but we'll take it as fair for a jousting lance). Properly braced, this should be no problem for a young woman who is fit.

Even Jaime isn’t sure of being able to wield a lance with his left arm. L being describe has a beautiful Lolita, I don’t see her able to joust

I don't think you're reading that first quote quite right. I think he was wondering if it might be possible to arrange some way to use the lance with his right (handless) arm, and ruled that out because of the weight and cumbersome nature of the lance. He then thinks, "He supposed he might try holding the lance with his left hand, but that would mean shifting his shield to his right arm." The problem is a logistical one rather than a physical one of weight -- yes, he could shift to his left hand, but then his shield is on the wrong side and there's really no point (and yes, this would tend to mean that lefthanded knights in Westeros train to joust with their right hands; probably puts them at a little bit of a disadvantage).

be has good as a champion (don’t forget that the best where at whent tourney, the 3 champions are not small fry).

Well, _everyone_ was at the tourney. Among them were, doubtless, the most famous knights of the day. But there would have been many, many other mediocre knights. With such a large field, and such a lengthy contest (five days), it would make sense if the first day or two featured lesser, not greater, challengers, and that the best and most powerful would only came forward in the last two or three days. Note that, for example, Richard Lonmouth -- apparently a famed knight by then -- and Robert Baratheon -- not a great jouster, but a great lord and powerful knight -- had yet to joust, and were speaking of challenging the KolT on the next day when "he" took up his place as a champion.

As to jousting training, it's said Lyanna wasn't allowed to carry a sword. Not necessarily the same as not occasionally being indulged in sparring a bit. And we know that squires and pages practice riding at rings and the quintain, and there's no reason to suppose that Lyanna may not at least have been given permission to do that.

There is medieval precedent, I'm fairly sure -- I recall reading of, I think, a German countess who allegedly jousted in at least one tournament.

[Wargonaut]

I was, at one time, absolutely convinced that Howland Reed was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I even argued with a friend about it for a long time. However, after reading the rest of the books and seeing the evidence on this site, I am now nearly positive it has to be Lyanna, no matter how unbelievable it sounds. I think the best evidence is Arya coupled with the aftermath of the tourney and Lyanna and Rhaegar. To me, this conclusion is about as sound as Roose Bolton being the man that struck down Robb and R+L=J. I just don't see how, given the foreshadowing and the overwhelming "evidence" as to the secret, that any other conclusion would make sense. If any of those three "theories" turn out to be wrong, it would be because GRRM decided to change the story because it became too predictable. Granted, many of us wouldn't have the answers to these mysteries were it not for the internet, so only now does it seem very predictable or obvious. But if any of those three results are wrong, GRRM would have a lot of 'splainin to do.