Toll the Hounds by Steven Erikson

[Ser Paladin]

Seriously? I find Shadowthrone rather clunky, especially for a dude... who sits on the Throne of Shadow.

He did need aliases for Ammanas and Dancer. And while Cotillion, I suppose, would be the "uber" dance, it was a bit of an ugh.

That reminded me of something. Was their deception ever meaningful? Was anyone really duped by the emperor and his assassin disappearing right around when a new god of shadow and the patron of assassins appearing?

Everyone seems to know that "The Rope" is the assassin god, but hadn't these godships been vacant for 300,000 years? Once you get past the big 12 or so in Greek and Roman mythology, I can't keep their second tier gods straight, and that was only 3000 year ago, tops.

[Lord Baelish]

I really want to get into this series, but am not finding it very interesting. I find the characters very underdeveloped. As if Erikson hinting that they are secretly uber powerful is enough to give them depth. Do most fans here just plough ahead and hope the characters start growing on them? I am halfway through Deadhouse Gates and find it quite easy to put down. I mean I actually lasted for 3 of Goodkind's books before I could take no more. I just hate feeling like I am missing something good, while at the same time amazed that GRRM fans think the Malazan series is in anyway comparable to ASOIAF.

I'd say stick with it to the end of DG. If by that time you still can't get into it, just accept that it wasn't your cup of tea and move on. It's definitely a love-hate series.

[Veilside]

He did need aliases for Ammanas and Dancer. And while Cotillion, I suppose, would be the "uber" dance, it was a bit of an ugh.

That reminded me of something. Was their deception ever meaningful? Was anyone really duped by the emperor and his assassin disappearing right around when a new god of shadow and the patron of assassins appearing?

Everyone seems to know that "The Rope" is the assassin god, but hadn't these godships been vacant for 300,000 years? Once you get past the big 12 or so in Greek and Roman mythology, I can't keep their second tier gods straight, and that was only 3000 year ago, tops.

Except Shadowthrone's name pre godhood was Kelanved, not Ammanas. Yes, plenty of people were duped, but not anyone that really mattered within the Empire. Laseen and Tayschrenn certainly weren't.

Everyone would know "the rope" is the patron god of assassin's because of the Deck of Dragons.

[L'Sana]

I really want to get into this series, but am not finding it very interesting. I find the characters very underdeveloped. As if Erikson hinting that they are secretly uber powerful is enough to give them depth. Do most fans here just plough ahead and hope the characters start growing on them? I am halfway through Deadhouse Gates and find it quite easy to put down. I mean I actually lasted for 3 of Goodkind's books before I could take no more. I just hate feeling like I am missing something good, while at the same time amazed that GRRM fans think the Malazan series is in anyway comparable to ASOIAF.

I too was partway through Deadhouse Gates when I realized that I didn't give a damn about what happened to any of these characters: they could live, die, succeed, fail, or forget this whole war thing and just start up a beach volleyball league. I wouldn't have any interest in them no matter what. I did finish Deadhouse Gates, mostly because I was on an airplane at the time, and alternatives were limited. If I were on another airplane and Memories of Ice appeared in front of me, I would probably read it, but I don't think I'll ever seek it out.

Everything I have heard about the series since then has convinced me that I made the right choice. I see why other people like that, but it does seem that Erikson does not do characters well. They grow more powerful, but never any deeper. If characters are your main reason for liking a story (as they are mine), Erikson may be the wrong choice. If what you want is really bad-ass battle scenes, on the other hand, I've heard that no one does those better.

[Trencher]

I too was partway through Deadhouse Gates when I realized that I didn't give a damn about what happened to any of these characters: they could live, die, succeed, fail, or forget this whole war thing and just start up a beach volleyball league. I wouldn't have any interest in them no matter what. I did finish Deadhouse Gates, mostly because I was on an airplane at the time, and alternatives were limited. If I were on another airplane and Memories of Ice appeared in front of me, I would probably read it, but I don't think I'll ever seek it out.

Everything I have heard about the series since then has convinced me that I made the right choice. I see why other people like that, but it does seem that Erikson does not do characters well. They grow more powerful, but never any deeper. If characters are your main reason for liking a story (as they are mine), Erikson may be the wrong choice. If what you want is really bad-ass battle scenes, on the other hand, I've heard that no one does those better.

Thanks. Without developed characters I just don't care much about anything else. I need more than magical fireworks and super powerful beings.

I would love a spoiler to convince me that Erikson puts more thought into his events than I may be giving him credit for. In DG a T'Lan Imass gives Stormy a stone sword (on the ship of headless rowers). Why? When I read it I rolled my eyes and thought it was just a weak excuse for Stormy (who so far to me is not much more to me than a name and rank) a cool sword that we will be all so eager to know what it does. Was there really more to it? I didn't really see a good enough reason for him to deserve the gift. Thanks.

[Veilside]

Thanks. Without developed characters I just don't care much about anything else. I need more than magical fireworks and super powerful beings.

I would love a spoiler to convince me that Erikson puts more thought into his events than I may be giving him credit for. In DG a T'Lan Imass gives Stormy a stone sword (on the ship of headless rowers). Why? When I read it I rolled my eyes and thought it was just a weak excuse for Stormy (who so far to me is not much more to me than a name and rank) a cool sword that we will be all so eager to know what it does. Was there really more to it? I didn't really see a good enough reason for him to deserve the gift. Thanks.

About the sword:

SPOILER: the sword

That T'lan Imass has just taken one of those Tiste Andii heads, The Tiste Andii's soul was enough to bridge the gap, so the Imass was freed. Legana Breed (I think) comes back in Bonehunters to get his/her sword back from Stormy. Stormy and Gesler are also on the path to ascendancy, having been annealed in the flames between warrens that strengthen dragons.

[Trencher]

Thanks. But why did he give it to Stormy to then later want it back? Why Stormy? And please explain the need to bridge a gap. Also that last sentence made no sense to me. I understand the warren tied to dragons, but the annealing part...?

[Veilside]

Presumably because he though he was going to get out alive and wanted someone to keep ahold of it that was worthy, and I imagine the Imass could sense that he was more that just an average human. Or it might just be because Stormy was the only one to show him compassion.

By bridging the gap I mean that the mage had created a gap between warrens and a physical soul was needed to keep it closed, like the breach mentioned in Memories of Ice.

The annealing thing is something mentioned in Reaper's Gale. I've only read it through once but I recall I think Break mentioning that dragons travelling between warrens to anneal themselves against certain things, I believe he mentions that Stormy and Gesler managed to get within this area. I think it's at the point where Beak does his mega magic thing.

[Trencher]

Presumably because he though he was going to get out alive and wanted someone to keep ahold of it that was worthy, and I imagine the Imass could sense that he was more that just an average human. Or it might just be because Stormy was the only one to show him compassion.

By bridging the gap I mean that the mage had created a gap between warrens and a physical soul was needed to keep it closed, like the breach mentioned in Memories of Ice.

The annealing thing is something mentioned in Reaper's Gale. I've only read it through once but I recall I think Break mentioning that dragons travelling between warrens to anneal themselves against certain things, I believe he mentions that Stormy and Gesler managed to get within this area. I think it's at the point where Beak does his mega magic thing.

Thanks. I am only halfway through DG so much of that I have not read. I would love to just know the rules and restrictions he has on his magic system. For example why is a soul needed to keep the gap closed? I am hoping for more than a, "because that's just the rules"!

[Gigei]

I really want to get into this series, but am not finding it very interesting. I find the characters very underdeveloped. As if Erikson hinting that they are secretly uber powerful is enough to give them depth. Do most fans here just plough ahead and hope the characters start growing on them?

I am in the minority since I actually loved the first book the best. So no I never plowed ahead hoping to like the characters because I liked them from the first.

I think the Eel, for example, is a great character. As is Rake. Hated Paran though, still do.

I am halfway through Deadhouse Gates and find it quite easy to put down.

You didn't like the acts of heroism in the Chain of Dogs??? Man, that was just soooo good. I feel all tingly just thinking about it.

SPOILER: sappers

Gosh, what about the part where Coltaine *demotes* a guy for heroism (the head of the sappers whom he had never seen before)?

I mean I actually lasted for 3 of Goodkind's books before I could take no more. I just hate feeling like I am missing something good, while at the same time amazed that GRRM fans think the Malazan series is in anyway comparable to ASOIAF.

It could simply be a matter of individual taste. People on this board swear by Guy Gavriel Kay, I happen to think GGK is way overrated. Or the way some people hate the Elric novels when I think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Believe it or not, some people don't like ASoIaF!

[Errant Bard]

I think the Eel, for example, is a great character.

Just to make sure, you know that the Eel is Kruppe?

[Trencher]

I am in the minority since I actually loved the first book the best. So no I never plowed ahead hoping to like the characters because I liked them from the first.

I think the Eel, for example, is a great character. As is Rake. Hated Paran though, still do.

I thought Rake was interesting, and was hoping to know more. Kruppe was as well an interersting character. But the rest I found not so captivating. I am glad you said that about Paran becasue here I am thinking he is supposed to be the guy we are supposed to get behind, but I just found him flat and boring. I didn't care if most of the main characters died or not. I was rooting for Laseen to kill them all, but I barely got to know her as well.

You didn't like the acts of heroism in the Chain of Dogs??? Man, that was just soooo good. I feel all tingly just thinking about it.

I'm not there yet. People say it's worth reading, but I'm not sure how much I will care about the struggles and battles of characters I don't feel anything for. Either side could win and it wouldn't really matter to me.

It could simply be a matter of individual taste. People on this board swear by Guy Gavriel Kay, I happen to think GGK is way overrated. Or the way some people hate the Elric novels when I think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Kay is one author I am interested in reading since I hear a lot of praise for. I plan on reading The Blade Itself next. Just looking for something to tie me over until a Dance With Dragons.

[Veilside]

I thought Rake was interesting, and was hoping to know more. Kruppe was as well an interersting character. But the rest I found not so captivating. I am glad you said that about Paran becasue here I am thinking he is supposed to be the guy we are supposed to get behind, but I just found him flat and boring. I didn't care if most of the main characters died or not. I was rooting for Laseen to kill them all, but I barely got to know her as well.

There's a bit more info about Laseen in Return of the Crimson Guard. Not a huge amount though.

[Joanna vander Poele]

He did need aliases for Ammanas and Dancer. And while Cotillion, I suppose, would be the "uber" dance, it was a bit of an ugh.

That reminded me of something. Was their deception ever meaningful? Was anyone really duped by the emperor and his assassin disappearing right around when a new god of shadow and the patron of assassins appearing?

Everyone seems to know that "The Rope" is the assassin god, but hadn't these godships been vacant for 300,000 years? Once you get past the big 12 or so in Greek and Roman mythology, I can't keep their second tier gods straight, and that was only 3000 year ago, tops.

Hey, is it ever even mentioned in the books if Dancer... you know, danced? Maybe ICE can write about it in one of his tie-in novels, how Dancer turned to assassination in bitter grief for the fact that he didn't have no twinkle-toes Hell, I'd read it. And I'd probably be the only one to read it...

I also wonder whether Erikson or ICE will ever write about the formation of the Malazan Empire - that is, "the beginning". I don't know how much of it Erikson's already written into the books other than the necessary details, but I'd love to see the creation of the family and uh, Kellanved bartendering. Mostly the latter.

ALSO, I'm pretty sure I danced the cotillion once, in grade eight. My god it is a twinky, dorky little dance.

[Veilside]

Hey, is it ever even mentioned in the books if Dancer... you know, danced? Maybe ICE can write about it in one of his tie-in novels, how Dancer turned to assassination in bitter grief for the fact that he didn't have no twinkle-toes Hell, I'd read it. And I'd probably be the only one to read it...

I also wonder whether Erikson or ICE will ever write about the formation of the Malazan Empire - that is, "the beginning". I don't know how much of it Erikson's already written into the books other than the necessary details, but I'd love to see the creation of the family and uh, Kellanved bartendering. Mostly the latter.

ALSO, I'm pretty sure I danced the cotillion once, in grade eight. My god it is a twinky, dorky little dance.

He's called Dancer because he was a Shadow Dancer

[delete this account pls]

I found Paran to be boring as well, but I warmed to him in Bonehunters.

[Joanna vander Poele]

He's called Dancer because he was a Shadow Dancer

Ahh yes, the Malaz equivalent to belly-dancing... I mean no, that's awesome.

[Gigei]

Just to make sure, you know that the Eel is Kruppe?

Of course.

I'm not there yet. People say it's worth reading, but I'm not sure how much I will care about the struggles and battles of characters I don't feel anything for. Either side could win and it wouldn't really matter to me.

That's what I thought, too, when I was reading it. I didn't warm to Coltaine or Duiker until the actual Chain of Dogs. I guess it was only then that I got to know how awesome some characters are.

Paran is like, the first person we meet, IIRC. He was like a little boy who wanted to be a soldier and met the BBs. His POV is so damn boring. He also literally lucked into power instead of, you know, earning it.

I suggest you simply skip some pages until you reach the actual Chain of Dogs. Hehehe. I like to do that sometimes.

[Mme Erzulie]

I haven't read more than the last page for fear of spoilers (I've only read 4 or 5 books) and lack of time, but I wanted to pop in and say that I just started re-reading GOTM, and I realized that I think this series (at least up until where I've read) is vastly superior to almost everything else out there in the fantasy universe, barring Tolkien and Martin (and possibly Hobb).

If people have trouble relating to Erikson's characters, I suggest they stay far away from ever reading Bakker. I think Erikson makes it a bit difficult for the reader in that few of his characters are fantasy stereotypes or cardboard cutouts, and he won't go out of his way to make sure you can differentiate between them. That doesn't mean they're all the same (as I have heard people complain), rather that people who spend a lot of time together and share a lot of (often life-altering or -threatening) experiences tend to become alike, at least as far as outward appearances are concerned. His characters do feel eminently real to me, and when you pay attention and read acutely, they all have different personalities.

Frankly, most of the criticisms I've heard leveled against this series I now consider to be lacking or moot. You could argue that if it takes a re-read to clearly understand and appreciate what's going on, the plot is too convoluted, but I am a lazy reader, and knowing who people are when they're first mentioned in the book helps me pin them down in my mind.

I have also heard it said (even by the series' proponents) that GOTM is poorly written, as it was Erikson's first book, but that the quality of the prose increases with the later books. Reading it now, I find that argument hard to swallow. I find the writing style to be concise and well-flowing. His descriptions are vivid, but not overly long, and besides a slight obsession with the word 'promontory', there is little sign of any words or phrases being overused (cf. Kerr's ridiculous overuse of 'keening'). And his dialogue is blessedly realistic and believable. A bit stylicized, yes, but I think this is one of the aspects of writing where too much realism is not a good thing.

I think Eriksons world is brilliantly realized. The nations and the people in it are very believable and interact in rational ways. The sheer magnitude and complexity of its history is daunting, and it is obviously one Erikson knows inside and out.

Reading the first few chapters again now, it also strikes me to what degree Erikson must have known what was going to happen as the series progressed. I had forgotten that so many of the story's main players stemmed from the same family, and I get the distinct impression that very little of the (multitude of) storylines was made up as Erikson went along. Rather, it seems he knew right from the start where he was going and what he wanted to do.

I'm greatly enjoying myself and feel completely immersed when reading, and this is something that only a very few authors are able to offer me. So cheers and kudos to you, Erikson!

[Gigei]

Yay! Another person who likes GotM!

I got the impression that people only liked the later books.

Ahh yes, the Malaz equivalent to belly-dancing... I mean no, that's awesome.

SPOILER: yeees

Rofl. Somehow whenever Apsalar shadow dances I get this weird mental image of a woman wiht really BIG boobs bouncing around flashing her knives.