The Babylon 5 Rewatch Thread

[Rimmer]

There is a chance, however infintesimal, that it may happen this afternoon, that I will arrive home tonight to discover that my home has been destroyed by a meteor, and that would be a substantial loss to me. Do you recommend that I spend a lot of money this afternoon trying to find a new place to live? Should I skip class to consult apartment listings instead? Of course not.

No, but a lot of people get house insurance for pretty much these exact reasons. And your house falling down isn't exactly comparable to all records and achievements of humankind disappearing, even as an analogy.

[Lord of Oop North]

Why _not_ now? Because the resources might be better spent on more immediate threats. Concerns about oil are not remotely analogous, btw; we're talking about a catastrophic event that will almost certainly happen millions if not billions of years in the future, not some time within my lifetime or that of my nieces. People prioritize all the time based on what risks need to be handled right away, and what can be put off until the next geological age. It's not that crazy.

There are other immediete threats that face us like overpopulation, and that is happening a bit sooner than the next geological age.

I suppose this was not illustrated very well in Babylon 5 because, as Werthead mentioned, Earth only has a population of 10 billion. When it is going to be more like 15 billion by 2100.

The biggest reason to go to space is because we like to fuck.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

There are other immediete threats that face us like overpopulation, and that is happening a bit sooner than the next geological age.

I suppose this was not illustrated very well in Babylon 5 because, as Werthead mentioned, Earth only has a population of 10 billion. When it is going to be more like 15 billion by 2100.

So you're conceding that Sinclair's position is not very convincing either? Because that's all I was trying to say, not that space travel was itself a bad idea.

Although when it comes to space colonization as a potential solution to overpopulation, given the sheer size of excess population involved, I stand with Kim Stanley Robinson's argument that it's not really likely to work out that way. (Getting billions of people into space, much less adequate infrastructure to give those billions of people any kind of sustainable existence, is wildly beyond our capacity so far as I know.) That's a seperate argument, though, and off-topic.

[Lord of Oop North]

So you're conceding that Sinclair's position is not very convincing either? Because that's all I was trying to say, not that space travel was itself a bad idea.

Although when it comes to space colonization as a potential solution to overpopulation, given the sheer size of excess population involved, I stand with Kim Stanley Robinson's argument that it's not really likely to work out that way. That's a seperate argument, though.

His position from the setting he lives in is very convincing. Saying the Sun is going to go out is just melodrama for the cameras and the 'folks back home'.

Aside:

What is KSR's argument?

Edit:

Nevermind

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

His position from the setting he lives in is very convincing. Saying the Sun is going to go out is just melodrama for the cameras and the 'folks back home'.

Not according to JMS. It's "the simplest truth" and "the most compelling" reason for space exploration. But I'm not going to belabor the point.

As for KSR's argument, it's in Blue Mars, if you're interested, but IIRC it more or less goes as I stated above.

[Ran]

Sinclair's argument from the perspective of the sun dying out is melodramatic, certainly, although as I noted, he's ... uh, right.

Realistically, there will almost certainly be no sign that we ever existed a few tens of million years from now when the sun _does_ begin to die out. It's just to big a scale to think about unless you're a First One or something.

But the argument that you don't want to keep all the eggs in one basket is pretty good, and that's what Sinclair is speaking to. Nothing is permanent, not even the earth. You can't take for granted that humanity will always be able to exist there, and having colonies is simply one means of buying a bit of insurance against that eventuality.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Sinclair's argument from the perspective of the sun dying out is melodramatic, certainly, although as I noted, he's ... uh, right.

Sure, and if Sinclair just said, "We must flee the earth because at any minute it may be attacked by a more powerful race of aliens that could destroy it without warning," that would have been unobjectionable. However--and I'm not sure why you missed this point from before--JMS is, by his own admission, using Sinclair to offer his views on RL space exploration, and in that context JMS is not so obviously right.

"Nothing is permanent" is a sound bit of philosophy, but as a factor in deciding how much to invest in space travel as opposed to other things, it's not really useful. Unless you're willing to argue, like Rimmer may or may not be, that extinction is so uniquely horrible that we should pay any price to avoid to avoid it no matter how infintestimally small the chance of it occurring within the next few thousand years, then the question becomes, _how_ impermanent, and based on what risk? A program designed to combat the possibility of an asteroid strike makes sense; one designed to combat a spontaneous supernova does not.

[Werthead]

The biggest reason to go to space is because we like to fuck.

This is a fundamental truth

It's also worth remembering that at the moment Sinclair says that, it has been ten years and six months since an enormous fleet of hundreds of advanced alien warships surrounded Earth and prepared to vapourise the entire population before - at this point in the series - apparently deciding not to on a whim. That's probably a good enough reason for most people to find other places to live out in the Galaxy.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

It's also worth remembering that at the moment Sinclair says that, it has been ten years and six months since an enormous fleet of hundreds of advanced alien warships surrounded Earth and prepared to vapourise the entire population before - at this point in the series - apparently deciding not to on a whim. That's probably a good enough reason for most people to find other places to live out in the Galaxy.

Getting back to B5 for a second: it's been a long time since I've seen In the Beginning, but weren't most of the human colonies destroyed fairly easily by the Minbari fleet on their way to Earth? IIRC Mars was bypassed to get to Earth, but the others didn't pose much of a challenge for Minbari warships, correct?

[Lord of Oop North]

Getting back to B5 for a second: it's been a long time since I've seen In the Beginning, but weren't most of the human colonies destroyed fairly easily by the Minbari fleet on their way to Earth? IIRC Mars was bypassed to get to Earth, but the others didn't pose much of a challenge for Minbari warships, correct?

Basically, the EarthForce got slaughtered.

The only warship they destroyed was the Black Star. That is saying something.

Humanity was pretty much on the brink of extinction at the Battle of the Line.

Not according to JMS. It's "the simplest truth" and "the most compelling" reason for space exploration. But I'm not going to belabor the point.

As for KSR's argument, it's in Blue Mars, if you're interested, but IIRC it more or less goes as I stated above.

I never knew JMS's position on the matter. I'm just saying that the way I took Sinclair's speech was in the context of the Earth-Minbari War and the simple truth that the Sun will fade out one day (I believe the Sun can not go Supernova). Being ten years after the war, where humanity was nearly extinguished, that is going to change a lot of cultural attitudes towards space exploration.

[Ser Greguh]

Interesting that this thread pops up as I've begun to cycle B5 back into my nightly DVD schedule. I had started with Season 3 as (a) I'm familiar enough with the B5 storyline not to get lost, and ( because despite setting the groundwork for much of what came later, I remember Season 1 as being pretty spectacularly bad for much of its length. Nice worldbuilding; shitty storytelling, and it wasn't until the last half of the season that I felt JMS kind of found his groove. "Signs and Portents", "A Voice in the Wilderness 1 & 2", "Babylon Squared", and "Chrysalis" are about the only episodes I have any particularly fond memories of from S1.

That said, I might just join in on this. My offered take might be a bit more critical, but I do appreciate what this show became in its middle years.

[Werthead]

Getting back to B5 for a second: it's been a long time since I've seen In the Beginning, but weren't most of the human colonies destroyed fairly easily by the Minbari fleet on their way to Earth? IIRC Mars was bypassed to get to Earth, but the others didn't pose much of a challenge for Minbari warships, correct?

The Minbari destroyed any and all Earthforce ships, stations and outposts they came across. They left civilian targets strictly alone. Taken in the context of Sinclair's statement that the Minbari are supremely honourable in Midnight, it may be concluded that the Minbari never wanted to exterminate humanity, merely wishing to destroy their ships and military and leave them to fend for themselves. However, In the Beginning does state pretty blatantly that the Minbari were going to devastate Earth from orbit. The compromise that Peter David reached in the novelisation and the Mongoose writers did in the RPG sourcebooks detailing the war was that the Minbari were in such a hurry to reach Earth they only destroyed those things that were a threat to them and planned to mop up the surviving civilians on the way back to Minbari space at the end of the war.

They also explain that as the war raged Earthforce shut down and destroyed the jump beacons leading from the colonies to Earth, meaning that the Minbari had to basically find the Solar system by going from system to system in a pretty big area until they found it, which is why the war lasted 25 months. If they beacons had stayed active, the Minbari fleet would have found and destroyed Earth within weeks of the war commencing.

The only warship they destroyed was the Black Star. That is saying something.

Not quite. The destruction of the Black Star was humanity's only unambiguous victory in the war. They did manage to destroy a couple of other warcruisers by kamikazeing them (you even see this in In the Beginning), but JMS says those weren't counted as victories.

I never knew JMS's position on the matter. I'm just saying that the way I took Sinclair's speech was in the context of the Earth-Minbari War and the simple truth that the Sun will fade out one day (I believe the Sun can not go Supernova). Being ten years after the war, where humanity was nearly extinguished, that is going to change a lot of cultural attitudes towards space exploration.

The Sun cannot go supernova according to the laws of physics, no, but somehow it does explode in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. JMS says that this is a deliberate act on the part of some other race (the Drakh, presumably) but not how they accomplish it.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The Sun cannot go supernova according to the laws of physics, no, but somehow it does explode in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. JMS says that this is a deliberate act on the part of some other race (the Drakh, presumably) but not how they accomplish it.

Well, he does gesture in that direction, at least:

And what if you, say, interfered substantially with the mass of the sun by, say, causing a series of jump points to open up *inside* the sun across several days?

...and...

> Would that amount to injecting some hefty chunks of hyperspace?

You'd also substantially decrease the mass of Sol, which as I understand it, would result in the sun going nova.

[Lord of Oop North]

Not quite. The destruction of the Black Star was humanity's only unambiguous victory in the war. They did manage to destroy a couple of other warcruisers by kamikazeing them (you even see this in In the Beginning), but JMS says those weren't counted as victories.

I'll have to watch In The Beginning again, I don't remember that!

The Sun cannot go supernova according to the laws of physics, no, but somehow it does explode in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. JMS says that this is a deliberate act on the part of some other race (the Drakh, presumably) but not how they accomplish it.

I realize that. I imagine Sinclair's speech is very popular among the people of Earth at the time.

I still think that the speech had more to do with mankind's recent near miss with extinction. Especially considering how close Sinclair was to that event. I mean, look how easily and quickly the human race was nearly extinguished. Colonization of space should be a huge priority.

[Ran]

Has JMS directly indicated it was some other race that was causing the destabilization of the sun? Given the fact that there was going to be a celebration immediately on the sun going nova, I always read it as the humans themselves blowing up the sun as a sort of grand gesture.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Was there a big push towards colonization after the Minbari War, out of curiosity? It sounds like there was two concurrent reactions back on Earth: first, toward more diplomatic engagement with the major races, hence the Babylon Project; and second, _against_ things space-related altogether, which forms the background to the ISN reporter's question.

[Lord of Oop North]

Was there a big push towards colonization after the Minbari War, out of curiosity? It sounds like there was two concurrent reactions back on Earth: first, toward more diplomatic engagement with the major races, hence the Babylon Project; and second, _against_ things space-related altogether, which forms the background to the ISN reporter's question.

I'm not certain there is any real answer to this.

My theory was that after the First Contact with the Centauri, colonization began in earnest and then after the defeat of the Dilgar, the Earth Alliance went into it's massive expansion phase until the Earth-Minbari War. After the war, humans became more isolationist and xenophobic and desired less interaction with aliens and with 'space' in general, which might have stymied future colonization. Earth itself was also plagued with internal problems before Clark came to power: Martian seperation, and many of the smaller nations on Earth (i.e. Indonesia) were being openly hostile. This may have also made people frown upon spending money in space when there was things to do right there at home.

[Werthead]

Difficult to say. Certainly there hasn't been any major establishment of big new colonies since the Earth-Minbari War. The isolationist tendency seems to be much more prevalent.

According to the various timelines given out, there was a huge explosion of expansion between first contact with the Centauri in 2156 and the Minbari War in 2245-47 (or 48, depending on which version of JMS' timelines you believe; I favour 47 as it fits the dates given in the show much better), with a notable increase in the 12 years between the Dilgar War and the Minbari conflict, the result of Earth getting cocky with itself for taking the lead in beating the Dilgar.

[Shryke]

YEah, Wert and LotN basically got it.

We start expanding. After kicking ass and taking names in the Dilgar War, we get cocky and start expanding even MORE. Then comes the Mimbari War. Afterwords, Earth becomes extremely isolationist. The expense of building 5 Babylon stations and maintaining the final one doesn't help that. Basically, most of the population is isolationist, especially on Earth. Some are more open minded. There's also a large military build-up in response to the Mimbari War.

[Derfel Cadarn]

In The Beginning had a few continuity issues, especially with the destruction of the Black Star. In the series Sheriden doesnt mention that the Black Star had just pwned the Lexington and the fleet. also Sheriden says that a few other Minbarri cruisers got blown up alongside the Black Star but we don't see any other Minbarri ships. Also, final peeve, but it's Ivanova who asks Sheridan about the Black Star incident, you'd think she'd already know about it since her brother was the starfury pilot who got killed by the decoy Minbarri fighter.